Detroit-Windsor Price Comparison

So, in another thread, lots of sidetracking was going on about the difference in prices [[and taxes) between Canada and the US.

So I thought why not start a thread that compares.

I'm starting by using a cost-of-living aggregator [[website) and using it to compare Windsor vs Detroit.

As I live in Toronto, I can not attest to its accuracy and some of the prices it suggests made my eyebrows arch............

But I put it out there as a starting place.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...=Detroit%2C+MI

Summary:

Indices Difference	http://www.numbeo.com/images/information.png
Consumer Prices in Detroit, MI are 5.94% higher than in Windsor
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Detroit, MI are 13.07% higher than in Windsor
Rent Prices in Detroit, MI are 35.43% higher than in Windsor
Restaurant Prices in Detroit, MI are 15.50% higher than in Windsor
Groceries Prices in Detroit, MI are 19.19% higher than in Windsor
Local Purchasing Power in Detroit, MI is 29.89% higher than in Windsor

For Details, follow the link and discuss!

Anyone wanting a specific price in Toronto, I'll be happy to have a look.

Am I right that sales tax in Ontario is 13% vs. 6% in Michigan? Is that factored in?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Am I right that sales tax in Ontario is 13% vs. 6% in Michigan? Is that factored in?

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Yes the that's correct, HST in Ontario is 13% [[does not apply to most groceries, rent or 1st time home purchase under 400k)

And I don't see any reference to their methodology, other than they calculate net income as after tax.

So they did factor it in at points, not sure if overall.

For retail booze all tax is embedded in the price [[in ON)

Its also embedded for Transit Fares.

I believe I can attest to its accuracy ..... It isn't.

I checked the exchange rate a couple of days ago and was a bit shocked to find the Loonie had fallen as far as it had. It was at .79 then and looking at yesterday it now just over .78

2015-03-13

1.2790

0.7819

It had been at near parity for a long time. So that may play into your calculation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lowell

...It had been at near parity for a long time. So that may play into your calculation.

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Lowell, both columns of the table were in Canadian Dollars, so it was factored in. But since its changing so quickly, its probably inaccurate to some degree. Canadian prices should be in flux right now. Any US imported products should be getting expensive. And gasoline should not have dropped as much as in the US due to oil being priced in USD.

A friend of mine is a Windsorite nurse who works in the States. She's pretty happy right now. But most Canadians don't make their earnings in USD. Cross-border comparisons are difficult -- and right now you have to consider that the markets may not have caught up to the changing exchange rate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Cross-border comparisons are difficult -- and right now you have to consider that the markets may not have caught up to the changing exchange rate.

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I think this is true particularly in non-grocery, as consumer items are often ordered by stores months or seasons in advance.

It was a wide spread complaint here when the dollar hit parity that retailers here weren't lowering prices materially; the common refrain was 'we bought and paid for this months ago, the price change will flow through next season'.

How true that was/is might be cause for debate.

It was also true that as CDN$ rose many retailers here were accustomed to selling for a higher price [[in CDN$) and had no desire to give up new margin.

However, some retailers, such as J.Crew [[albeit after a public outcry) moved to parity pricing on both sides of the border [[not sure if this is still the case). That put a lot of pressure on to lower prices, which for the most part haven't come to down to US levels before currency adjustment. But given the rapid fall of the looney; I would imagine many price segments are close'ish to parity, with a few notable exceptions.

AS noted in the other thread, its my impression that compact/small cars are the same or lower priced in Canada; while large trucks and European imports tend to be more. That seems to be a function of market-pricing.

Also Canada still has tariffs higher than the US in certain segments [[for non NAFTA goods) such as men's footwear........ don't ask..... I don't know. :rolleyes:

Not saying we aren't happy to have Canadians working here, but a while back it was
shown that the US auto firms preferred to have plants in Canada vs. in the US, due
in part to Canada's nationalized health care system. A drop in the value of the Canadian
dollar vs. the US dollar means that an auto plant in Canada is likely to stay there rather
than move to the US. So the plant "profit center" stays in Canada. At the same time, as
Wesley noted, if there is a professional job opening in the Detroit area that a Canadian can apply for, they might prefer it to a comparable job opening in Canada, partly based on pay.
[[I am a fan of "Why Nations Fail" especially its cross-border comparisons.) At the same
time, to my knowledge, it is difficult for lower-skilled workers in Detroit to find work in
Canada [[I may be mistaken here! I often am! Please correct me if needed!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dumpling

Not saying we aren't happy to have Canadians working here, but a while back it was
shown that the US auto firms preferred to have plants in Canada vs. in the US, due
in part to Canada's nationalized health care system. A drop in the value of the Canadian
dollar vs. the US dollar means that an auto plant in Canada is likely to stay there rather
than move to the US. So the plant "profit center" stays in Canada. At the same time, as
Wesley noted, if there is a professional job opening in the Detroit area that a Canadian can apply for, they might prefer it to a comparable job opening in Canada, partly based on pay.
[[I am a fan of "Why Nations Fail" especially its cross-border comparisons.) At the same
time, to my knowledge, it is difficult for lower-skilled workers in Detroit to find work in
Canada [[I may be mistaken here! I often am! Please correct me if needed!)

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Not to critique unduly, but I created this thread to deal w/off-topic choices in another..........LOL

The Cdn vs US labour market is a whole other discussion.

***

Notwithstanding that no, low-skill immigrants would not easily obtain legal work in Canada in most professions [[live-in caregiver might be an exception as would seasonal agricultural)

The US and Canada are not dis-similar in accommodating high-skill immigrants; arguably Canada is the more permissive.

As an added note, just went to the grocery store, so a few Toronto observations. [[obviously in Cdn $)

Bananas .59c per pound
Potatoes 1$ a pound loose, $3.99 for 5lbs.
Lemons .50c each
Organic Salad mix 142g clamshell $3.99
Lettuce $1.69 [[green/red leaf)
Broccoli $1 each
Ritz Crackers $1.77
Coke $1.67
200gr of old cheddar $3.89
1L of milk [[carton) $2.69 [[4L in bags) $3.99

Just as a curiosity [[* shopped at discount grocer tonight)

Is everybody factoring in the cost of transportation to/from across the tunnel? $5 each way?

Canada, speaking generally, is much more expensive, with lower salaries, higher taxes, and higher priced consumer goods. Not really a good comparison.

Even tiny Windsor, one of the cheapest Canadian cities, is much more expensive than Metro Detroit apples-to-apples. Canada is closer to the European model, with more of a social welfare state, with all the benefits and costs.

Toronto, which is a much better comparison to Detroit, is scary expensive. It's real estate prices are probably higher than anywhere in the U.S. outside of NYC and the Bay Area, yet salaries are worse than in Michigan. And taxes are outrageous.

Even with the weak Canadian dollar, you see tons of Canadians filling the shopping malls of Metro Detroit. Prices are still much lower on this side of the border.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Canada, speaking generally, is much more expensive, with lower salaries, higher taxes, and higher priced consumer goods. Not really a good comparison.

Even tiny Windsor, one of the cheapest Canadian cities, is much more expensive than Metro Detroit apples-to-apples. Canada is closer to the European model, with more of a social welfare state, with all the benefits and costs.

Toronto, which is a much better comparison to Detroit, is scary expensive. It's real estate prices are probably higher than anywhere in the U.S. outside of NYC and the Bay Area, yet salaries are worse than in Michigan. And taxes are outrageous.

Even with the weak Canadian dollar, you see tons of Canadians filling the shopping malls of Metro Detroit. Prices are still much lower on this side of the border.

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Again, I find myself frustrated.

Above, I see a host of generalizations and not one actual price comparison, nor 1 actual salary comparison. Its one long anecdote.

I'm not saying there aren't some truths in there; though I find the implicit degree of difference makes no sense.

I posted a grocery list from last night; anyone want tell me what those same things would cost in Detroit?

Yes, real estate is much higher in Toronto, but that isn't a great comparison for Detroit. But if Bham's assertions are taken at face it must be all Michigan folks buying that expensive real estate as apparently no one in Toronto can afford to live here.......

Anecdotally its my perception that salaries [[before benefits and taxes) are modestly higher in Canada. Minimum wage is much higher, I know our police earn more [[1st class constable in Toronto is about 90k per year); But I'll happily take real world comparisons.

This is not 'measuring' contest to see whose better; its an honest comparison of how things are different or similar.

Am too lazy [[or busy) to start a Windsor/Detroit labor [[labour) market comparison
thread.
When I was a student [[in the pre-passport required era) I would visit the Windsor
Public Library. It had many more economic statistics journals than any other public
library I went to. My family would go camping in Canada as well. There are fond
memories of milk in plastic bags [[never caught on in Detroit), butter tarts, and
"grab bread". [[Does diligent tracking of economic statistics make for a more failed
nation or less failed nation? Why? /End weird humour.)
It will take a little while to shop around to directly compare the items on your list.
While you are waiting for someone to post relevant prices, in the meantime, New
Yasmeen bakery on West Warren in East Dearborn has pita bread at $1.50 per 10 loaves,
no tax added on. The nearby Fairline Supermarket on West Warren in Detroit has family
sized bags of collard greens for something like $2.00 or maybe less. These are my
local "best food buys".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dumpling

Am too lazy [[or busy) to start a Windsor/Detroit labor [[labour) market comparison
thread.
When I was a student [[in the pre-passport required era) I would visit the Windsor
Public Library. It had many more economic statistics journals than any other public
library I went to. My family would go camping in Canada as well. There are fond
memories of milk in plastic bags [[never caught on in Detroit), butter tarts, and
"grab bread". [[Does diligent tracking of economic statistics make for a more failed
nation or less failed nation? Why? /End weird humour.)
It will take a little while to shop around to directly compare the items on your list.
While you are waiting for someone to post relevant prices, in the meantime, New
Yasmeen bakery on West Warren in East Dearborn has pita bread at $1.50 per 10 loaves,
no tax added on. The nearby Fairline Supermarket on West Warren in Detroit has family
sized bags of collard greens for something like $2.00 or maybe less. These are my
local "best food buys".

---

Thanks for the reply, not worried about getting the specific comparison. Just wanted to address lots of suggestions in another thread that prices were vastly higher in Canada across the board, which isn't my experience.

I'd have to look at Collards and Pita for comparison, though those sound like pretty good deals.

Summary:

Indices Difference	http://www.numbeo.com/images/information.png
Consumer Prices in Detroit, MI are 5.94% higher than in Windsor
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Detroit, MI are 13.07% higher than in Windsor
Rent Prices in Detroit, MI are 35.43% higher than in Windsor
Restaurant Prices in Detroit, MI are 15.50% higher than in Windsor
Groceries Prices in Detroit, MI are 19.19% higher than in Windsor
Local Purchasing Power in Detroit, MI is 29.89% higher than in Windsor

Is this to be interpreted that, overall, a US/CDN dollar buys 29.89% in Detroit than in Windsor? Contradicitng the itemized pricing? I am no economist. Just a frugal spendthrift.

Years ago [[30 or so), a friend tried to convince me to move to Windsor. My money would go a lot further. We sort of did an ad hoc analysis of price differences on necessaries [[sp). At the time, I could get a carton of Marlboros's and fifth of Gordon's gin for a $20 bill and get change back. On a Sunday. Argument settled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldj

Summary:

Indices Difference	http://www.numbeo.com/images/information.png
Consumer Prices in Detroit, MI are 5.94% higher than in Windsor
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Detroit, MI are 13.07% higher than in Windsor
Rent Prices in Detroit, MI are 35.43% higher than in Windsor
Restaurant Prices in Detroit, MI are 15.50% higher than in Windsor
Groceries Prices in Detroit, MI are 19.19% higher than in Windsor
Local Purchasing Power in Detroit, MI is 29.89% higher than in Windsor

Is this to be interpreted that, overall, a US/CDN dollar buys 29.89% in Detroit than in Windsor? Contradicitng the itemized pricing? I am no economist. Just a frugal spendthrift.

Years ago [[30 or so), a friend tried to convince me to move to Windsor. My money would go a lot further. We sort of did an ad hoc analysis of price differences on necessaries [[sp). At the time, I could get a carton of Marlboros's and fifth of Gordon's gin for a $20 bill and get change back. On a Sunday. Argument settled.

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After much googling; as it wan't obvious to me where the methodology was on the site..............I found this...........about their methodology.

Local Purchasing Power shows relative purchasing power in buying goods and services in a given city for the average wage in that city. If domestic purchasing power is 40, this means that the inhabitants of that city with the average salary can afford to buy 60% less typical goods and services than New York City residents with an average salary.


So if I read that correctly; the suggestion is that Detroit prices are on average higher than those in Windsor; however so are wages, hence the greater purchasing power.

Though this wouldn't account for Health insurance being part of taxes paid in Canada, as opposed to an expense out of discretionary or post-tax income.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lowell

I checked the exchange rate a couple of days ago and was a bit shocked to find the Loonie had fallen as far as it had. It was at .79 then and looking at yesterday it now just over .78

2015-03-13

1.2790

0.7819

It had been at near parity for a long time. So that may play into your calculation.

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Time to go by new hockey equipment. Protective equipment is duty-free.