Troy debates sending back $8.5 million in U.S. aid for transit center

Just another day in the metro:

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Troy debate sending back $8.5 million in U.S. aid for transit center

By Bill Laitner | Detroit Free Press

November 29, 2011

Mass transit proposals are gaining speed in metro Detroit, but Troy's new mayor said she wants to stop a decade-long effort to build a transit center at the Troy-Birmingham border.

Mayor Janice Daniels, an activist in Michigan's Tea Party, campaigned against spending $8.5 million in federal funds for the rail-passenger project.

At Monday's Troy City Council meeting, several speakers echoed Daniels' wish to let the federal funds expire. Others voiced support for approval by the
Dec. 19 funding deadline.

Council members are expected to vote on the project at the Dec. 19 meeting.

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Dysfunction is like a religion in these parts, regardless of the location. Does this new mayor have a majority on council, now?

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Originally Posted by Dexlin

Just another day in the metro:



Dysfunction is like a religion in these parts, regardless of the location. Does this new mayor have a majority on council, now?

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These guys are being ridiculous. It's like their strategy is, "The answer to crazy fringe lunatics is to bring on even more crazy, even more fringe lunatics." There is a big accounting difference between entitlement spending vs. capital spending. Transit is an INVESTMENT, not some "government program" that takes money from one person and gives it to another.

You have to love the Tea Party Mayor. She says:


"How do you justify taking $8.5 million from a government that is trillions of dollars in debt?"


Based on her statement, she should also be voting against federal funding for all local road projects that comes from the feds through the state. Or does her opposition for spending federal dollars only apply to transit projects?

This is the wealthy city that nearly lost its library, a few months back. I honestly don't get what's going on in Troy. If this is their reaction to the economic downturn, it's a strange one to say the least.

Yuppie, you hit the nail on the head. This should be looked upon as investment. Their reaction to this shows just how incredibly narrow their ideology has become.

Can't stand the Tea Party, but I have no problem with this.

There's no sound economic, transit, or planning rationale to the proposed intermodal center. From Day 1, the project was basically an allocation looking for a purpose.

An intermodal center in an city with no intermodal demand, no walkability, and no traffic problem, and all shoehorned behind a strip mall.

Obviously I would prefer the money stay in the region for a more worthwhile project. I'd love to see it used for D-DOT service improvements, or much-needed expansion of I-75 or I-94. If that isn't possible, might as well do some good somewhere else.

Transit center for what? Buses? They should send the money back because they have no need for a transit center. Now maybe one day in the future, if the M-1 rail grow and become a mass transit then perhaps a transit center may be needed but not today.

Stick a Transit Center where it's not needed then spend more money later to build something from somewhere that's also not needed and finally subsidize the hell out of it because nobody uses it. It's called Liberal planning for INVESTMENT.

Yet another argument for a Regional Transit Authority. As long as each community walls off its own transit policy this chaos will continue and mass transit will fail. When that happens we only see the trees and never the forest.

It is completely arguable that the a transit center may not be needed in Troy, but there is little argument that transit centers [possibly including one in Troy] aren't needed as part of an effective overall solution.

The mayor may have an argument, but openly grandstanding on 'principle' rather than the reality of citing facts on how the project is a waste, if it is, is purely politics. The founding fathers that her Tea Party so worships also considered it good 'principle' that women shouldn't vote or hold office. Should she also leave office on principle?

The metro area desperately needs good reliable public transportation. However, if anyone needs a quick history lesson on mass transit in metro Detroit needs to look no further than Gratiot Ave [[east side) just north of French street and walk through the remains of the Gary Garage.

Its unfortunate because she's clearly not doing this based on a sound argument. It's one thing to reason out the location, services, etc. but it's another league when her only reason is "we don't want to steal from the gov't.". I know it's hard for a tea party person to take, but the government spends this kind of money ALL THE TIME. And guess what! Sending these funds away GUARANTEES THEY WILL BE SPENT quickly somewhere else. Once transit funding is allocated, it can't be undone. I always laugh when I see "The city of tomorrow" on Troy's welcome signs. A forward-thinking mayor would have used this potential project as leverage to create the RTA. Instead, some city in New York or Florida will probably be upgrading a system that we could only dream of, using money that Michigan needed.

Michigan is already one of the states that gets screwed over by gov't spending. We get back less than $1 for every tax dollar we spend. But I guess the Tea Party thinks it would be more fun to get even less back. After all, we can't afford 8 million dollars for a transit center in a major suburb, but ask that mayor what she thinks about Iran and I bet she'll say "BOMB at all cost!"

I really think that Troy is on a mission to aggressively segregate itself from any low income "undesirables". They pull you over for almost anything, they fight all transportation dollars unless they're for road widening, etc. I thank myself every day I don't live there.

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Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

Its unfortunate because she's clearly not doing this based on a sound argument. It's one thing to reason out the location, services, etc. but it's another league when her only reason is "we don't want to steal from the gov't.". I know it's hard for a tea party person to take, but the government spends this kind of money ALL THE TIME. And guess what! Sending these funds away GUARANTEES THEY WILL BE SPENT quickly somewhere else. Once transit funding is allocated, it can't be undone. I always laugh when I see "The city of tomorrow" on Troy's welcome signs. A forward-thinking mayor would have used this potential project as leverage to create the RTA. Instead, some city in New York or Florida will probably be upgrading a system that we could only dream of, using money that Michigan needed.

Michigan is already one of the states that gets screwed over by gov't spending. We get back less than $1 for every tax dollar we spend. But I guess the Tea Party thinks it would be more fun to get even less back. After all, we can't afford 8 billion dollars for a transit center in a major suburb, but ask that mayor what she thinks about Iran and I bet she'll say "BOMB at all cost!"

I really think that Troy is on a mission to aggressively segregate itself from any low income "undesirables". They pull you over for almost anything, they fight all transportation dollars unless they're for road widening, etc. I thank myself every day I don't live there.

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I disagree, not with the overall assesment of teabagger ignorance, but with your last portion. Look as has been discussed above, this particular project makes no sense whatsover. This would be the suburban version of the People Mover.... it would be an "inter modal transit hub" that will neither be a "hub" nor be "inter-modal". Throw on top of it a location that is just ridiculous, and this is just a pile of stupid.

Call her a stopped clock getting it right twice a day... a blind squirrel finding a nut.... whatever, but this project should be canned - just not for the silly justification offered. .

The location was being considered as a light rail stop in one of the suburban extension studies.

But you may be right. Why can't we ensure this money gets spent in the state though? I'd gladly see 8 million spent on DDOT! Im sure SMART would take the money to prevent a total collapse!!!

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Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

The location was being considered as a light rail stop in one of the suburban extension studies.

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Yeah, but still, that was decades off...at best. Maybe it's a chicken or the egg debate; build hubs then build tracks...or figure out where hubs should be after tracks get built?
Maybe a transpo expert could clue it in, but iirc this project was questioned by a lot of people...not just teabaggers looking to make a silly statement.

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But you may be right. Why can't we ensure this money gets spent in the state though? I'd gladly see 8 million spent on DDOT! Im sure SMART would take the money to prevent a total collapse!!!

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Hah. You make the classic mistake of using common sense. Clearly, if the money is not used here, it should be redirected to build another tunnel and rail line in Boston.

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Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

The location was being considered as a light rail stop in one of the suburban extension studies.

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There are many, many suburban locations that lie along the various proposed transit lines. Even Hall Road has been considered.

That doesn't mean there is automatically a sound rationale for investing in transit in a totally car-dependent location.

The Troy site is right behind a giant Target shopping center, which provides Troy with millions in tax revenue. The shopping center owners sued the city, alleging that the intermodal center would harm its business by making it much more difficult for folks to access their stores.

There is basically no pedestrian access. Folks would have to cross six lanes of traffic [[including a huge median), then walk across a giant parking lot, then find their way to the back alley behind the big box stores. It's basically the dumbest location in history for an intermodal center.

Want an intermodal center in Oakland County? We already have two, and they're both much better located and horribly underused. One in Royal Oak, and another in Pontiac. The Pontiac one was so bad they demolished it and built it bigger.

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Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

...Michigan is already one of the states that gets screwed over by gov't spending. We get back less than $1 for every tax dollar we spend....

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That situation recently reversed, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, the reason it reversed was because of the horrible Michigan economy. :[[

A lot of the protest sounds more like NIMBY and faux class snootyness masquerading as fiscal conservatism. From the Troy side of the tracks, we get complaints about the impact on local business as if the transit center traffic would generate anywhere near the traffic that the mobs of Black Friday shoppers created. From the Birmingham side, we get the claims that the high class people of Birmingham would never stoop to riding something so low class as a bus or a train.

Meanwhile, anyone who looks at this without their local biases can see that this location puts a station with access to the current Amtrak line and a future light-rail line and 3 different SMART bus lines smack dab in the middle of one of the most heavily populated areas of Oakland County. The access for pedestrians could be improved but most of these kinds of centers are serving park-and-ride and drop-off traffic. Want to get people out of their cars? You have to provide them alternatives and this looks like one part of the solution.

Here's some background from the city on how this idea came about.

http://troymi.gov/TransitCenter/JSMessage.pdf

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

The Troy site is right behind a giant Target shopping center, which provides Troy with millions in tax revenue. The shopping center owners sued the city, alleging that the intermodal center would harm its business by making it much more difficult for folks to access their stores.

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Where did you get that info?? This is the furthest from the truth. The developer wanted the intermodal site there. They have extended thier due-date to get this project done several times because they want it.

The real shame of this is that is money that could have been put to better use elsewhere if this was going to be the end result. This could have improved transit, bicycle connections, put the Ann Arbor-Detroit train on a fast track, repave the bumpy road that you drive on every day. Now it will be lost. Since its ARRA [[Stimulus) money they have to spend it soon or the Feds will take the money back. No match is required with ARRA, so this is truely a missed opportunity. :[[:mad:

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Originally Posted by Novine

A lot of the protest sounds more like NIMBY and faux class snootyness masquerading as fiscal conservatism. From the Troy side of the tracks, we get complaints about the impact on local business as if the transit center traffic would generate anywhere near the traffic that the mobs of Black Friday shoppers created. From the Birmingham side, we get the claims that the high class people of Birmingham would never stoop to riding something so low class as a bus or a train.

Meanwhile, anyone who looks at this without their local biases can see that this location puts a station with access to the current Amtrak line and a future light-rail line and 3 different SMART bus lines smack dab in the middle of one of the most heavily populated areas of Oakland County. The access for pedestrians could be improved but most of these kinds of centers are serving park-and-ride and drop-off traffic. Want to get people out of their cars? You have to provide them alternatives and this looks like one part of the solution.

Here's some background from the city on how this idea came about.

http://troymi.gov/TransitCenter/JSMessage.pdf

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I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't live anywhere near it. I just think it's telling to note that the idea was first proposed in 1993 and they were talking about future light rail and airport connectivity back then. Look...IF light rail get's built it's 20 years from getting there and going to be along Woodward. Any airport connection is just a far off...if not further. This is going to be a bus turnaround shoehorned between a big box store strip mall and light industrial/office parks. It will be isolated from all foot traffic by acres and acres of parking lots....and surely the miles of parking will be off limits to parking for transit folks. All to use what? Amtrak? its 12 bucks to get downtown...one way. and Wolverine only comes 3 times a day.

There is nothing "intermodal" about this project is my point. There won't be a use for it for at least another generation. Perhaps the concentration should be on the lack of any real choice in modes and less about the "hubs"

Huge savings could be realized from simply renting some parking lot space from an empty office park for the buses to turn around in... like at the State Fair grounds...because buses are all that are going to be served. Assuming SMART still exists in any real form in the next decade.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Where did you get that info?? This is the furthest from the truth. The developer wanted the intermodal site there. They have extended thier due-date to get this project done several times because they want it.

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No, that's not true.

The owner of the shopping center [[and adjacent condos) is Grand Sakwa. They are one of the biggest developers in Michigan and have been pretty vocal in fighting this project.

They sued Troy, and want the project to be cancelled/relocated, or, as an alternative, they want to be compensated for their perceived economic losses.

I don't know what you mean by "extended their due date". Maybe you're referring to the site owner? The intermodal center wouldn't be on Grand Sakwa land. It would be built on an adjacent industrial site, but access would be through Grand Sakwa property.

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

That situation recently reversed, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, the reason it reversed was because of the horrible Michigan economy. :[[

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Please explain how becoming a "receiving state" "is a good thing"? A "donor state" is in that situation because of its citizenry's above-average level of income and the progressive nature of the federal income tax rates - not because its elected representatives are below average in their ability to "bring home the bacon". [source]

This $8.5 million is part of the $40 million worth of high-speed rail funding for Michigan projects that was included in the American Recovery Reinvestment Act authorized by Congress in March 2009 to "stimulate" the economy through Federal spending on "shovel-ready" projects. [source]

As for the stimulative effect of this spending, the President noted in Oct. 2010 that "there’s no such thing as shovel-ready projects” and again in June of 2011 that “Shovel-ready was not as … uh .. shovel-ready as we expected.”

The Federal Govt. is currently borrowing 40 cents of every dollar it spends, so only $5.1 million of that $8.5 million comes without placing any interest and principal payment obligations on future generations - but who cares about those attached strings - it's INVESTMENT - as Rep. Gary Peters reminds us through his repeated use of that euphemism in his Jan. 2010 press release.

You have to start somewhere. In 1910, what would have been the point of improving roads? Nobody drives cars. Everybody rides rails. There is no demand for cars or roads. Therefore, no reason to spend.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

You have to start somewhere. In 1910, what would have been the point of improving roads? Nobody drives cars. Everybody rides rails. There is no demand for cars or roads. Therefore, no reason to spend.

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Ok, but, you wouldn't have built overpass rest stops/food courts 25 years before you built the expressway either.

I'm not arguing against investment in transit... I'm calling the project at issue an unnecessary boodoggle.

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Originally Posted by Novine

You have to love the Tea Party Mayor. She says:


"How do you justify taking $8.5 million from a government that is trillions of dollars in debt?"


Based on her statement, she should also be voting against federal funding for all local road projects that comes from the feds through the state. Or does her opposition for spending federal dollars only apply to transit projects?

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Like the Tea Party, she is over the top but she is in the Tea Party and when you are in the Tea Party then you must give a Tea Party answer.

She didn't need to use the government is in debt excuse because if a giant sinkhole was to swallow up Troy, the first phone call she is makes is to Obama.

After looking online for, like, 10 minutes, it seems Janice Daniels is a failed realtor. Most interesting is the charge that she can't afford to live in Troy? Surely that's impossible, right? You must have a Troy address to be mayor of Troy, right? And she was out in front in the effort to close Troy's libraries, although she now denies it. Sounds like a born politician.

"I will not forget my principles. That's what you elected me to do…I will not back down," Daniels told the crowd. "I'm thrilled; I'm honored; I'm excited and I'm ready. Let's go Troy!"

Is 52 percent of the vote a mandate?

I feel sorry for my friends and family in Troy with this sort of nut for their mayor...

"As for the stimulative effect of this spending, the President noted in Oct. 2010 that "there’s no such thing as shovel-ready projects” and again in June of 2011 that “Shovel-ready was not as … uh .. shovel-ready as we expected.”

Both you and the President are wrong about that. I've seen a number of projects completed here in Novi and elsewhere with stimulus money. Don't let the facts get in the way of the talking points you're busy parroting.