GM to Invest in Next-Generation Battery Facility That Will Lower EV Costs, Accelerate

https://plants.gm.com/media/us/en/gm...erycenter.html

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General Motors announced the Wallace Battery Cell Innovation Center, an all-new facility that will significantly expand the company's battery technology operations and accelerate development and commercialization of longer range, more affordable electric vehicle batteries. The Wallace Center will be located on the campus of GM's Global Technical Center in Warren, Michigan.

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The Wallace Center is currently under construction and will be completed in mid-2022. Designed for expansion, the facility is projected to grow up to at least three times its initial footprint, with room for additional investments, as demand for EVs increases. The facility is expected to build its first prototype cells in the fourth quarter of 2022.

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https://plants.gm.com/content/media....3442023458.jpg

https://plants.gm.com/etc/designs/gm.../img/1pxsp.png

I am skeptical that they will be able to lower the cost of EV batteries,you have an entire world looking to put batteries in everything from cars down to leaf blowers.

In a 3 year time frame.

Thats called demand and demand increases prices,deadlines come with a,at any cost approach.

In the US we are just seeing a tiny snippet of the bigger picture.

Its going to be like it is right now with all of the vehicles sitting there because of a little component cannot keep up with the demand.

Crazy how that is,10,000 pieces in the puzzle of building an automobile,all it takes is one little missing piece and you basically end up with a pile of scrap that all the advanced technology in the world cannot move.

I wonder how many of these non-polluting batteries are actually recycled and how many are thrown into land fills, where they end up contaminating the world's land, air,, and water supply?

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I wonder how many of these non-polluting batteries are actually recycled and how many are thrown into land fills, where they end up contaminating the world's land, air,, and water supply?

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About half, and more every year. The factories to process them have just been coming online in the last few years. They are loaded with cobalt, which is pretty valuable.

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Originally Posted by Richard

I am skeptical that they will be able to lower the cost of EV batteries.

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This is an interesting take, given that we've seen a dramatic lowering of battery costs over the last decade. I'm not sure why you'd expect those advancements to stop.

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Originally Posted by detmsp

This is an interesting take, given that we've seen a dramatic lowering of battery costs over the last decade. I'm not sure why you'd expect those advancements to stop.

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Maybe because China has cornered the market on lithium and may soon have access to the world's biggest deposits in Afghanistan.

LETS GO BRANDON

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Originally Posted by Wheels

Maybe because China has cornered the market on lithium and may soon have access to the world's biggest deposits in Afghanistan.

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I'm not sure that's true. Here's the largest known reserves of Lithium [[not sure how that equates to current mining)....

Where is lithium available from?
With 8 million tons, Chile has the world’s largest known lithium reserves. This puts the South American country ahead of Australia [[2.7 million tons), Argentina [[2 million tons) and China [[1 million tons). Within Europe, Portugal has smaller quantities of the valuable raw material. The total global reserves are estimated at 14 million tons. This corresponds to 165 times the production volume in 2018.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

I'm not sure that's true. Here's the largest known reserves of Lithium [[not sure how that equates to current mining)....

Where is lithium available from?
With 8 million tons, Chile has the world’s largest known lithium reserves. This puts the South American country ahead of Australia [[2.7 million tons), Argentina [[2 million tons) and China [[1 million tons). Within Europe, Portugal has smaller quantities of the valuable raw material. The total global reserves are estimated at 14 million tons. This corresponds to 165 times the production volume in 2018.

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In order to get the bigger picture you have to look at it,China is Chiles direct trading partner.

They made billions of loans to them.

China controls because China plays the loan shark.

Chile
Venezuela had to pledge 70% of all of their future oil production in order to pay off billions in loans.
Greenland - also rich with materials
China loaned billions in infrastructure.
Africa where many of the materials comes from now
China has literally taken over the cities that produce the minerals after investing billions into their infrastructure.

You do not think the Taliban will not sell out the mineral rights for Chinas support?

Argentina

China invested 10 billion in Argentina’s rail system alone,not loaned them the money,gave them the money.

Argentina sells 60% of its pork production to China every year,they produce 800,000 tons.

That is what China does,if you as a country are in need of funds and desperate they will be there with a checkbook but it will cost you because they then control you.

I dated a Chinese girl,her parents were mouth to ear with the most powerful people in China and they depended on her parents.

They wanted me to marry her,which would have gave me excess to funds that would have made the 1% in this country look like paupers,I walked,very few has any idea of how they operate long term and what the cost of that money is.

That kind of money controls countries,the reality of it is in most countries,you start throwing chump change of a billion dollars at politicians,nobody tells you what you can and cannot do,you dictate to them.

You can bet any country that China has a hand in,you can also bet they are in control of them,they would never give them a dime if they thought otherwise.

If you are following the politics of Australia,they are one step away of full on dictatorship control.

From 2018

Chinese loans worth hundreds of billions of dollars are saddling Australia's smaller regional neighbours with unsustainable debts and giving Beijing crucial economic leverage to gain strategic and military power, warns a new independent report presented to the US State Department.



That’s what they do,loan countries billions,when the country cannot pay it back,they have to concede assets to China,both current and future or China simply can crash thier monetary system and destroy that country.

China’s Belt and Road initiative

Covers 65 countries
Controls 30 % of all global GDP
Encompass 60% of the world’s population
Directly controls 75% of the worlds resources

Anybody really think they are playing around?

They have a plan and it has little to do with us,more so crushing us and removing the dollar as a world currency,not that it really matters because it is supported/funded by a majority of Americans anyways who are actually funding our own demise.

That’s why they do not give a crap about climate change,outside of collecting the billions we send them to to build products to save a planet that they are full blown out to control.

Our voice when it comes to all of this comes with an expiration date that has already been determined and we will actually have little to say in anything let alone climate change.

Right now today

The United States represents 5% of the worlds population but consumes 24% of the worlds resources.

Before factoring in the resources needed for addressing EVs etc.

Do the math ,when 75% percent of the worlds resources in the future are controlled by somebody else who dictates to who?

They are projecting by 2050 the population in the US will increase equal to adding an additional 4 states the size of California.

My only car is a Bolt. I bought a new 2020 after the 2021s were out for less than $20,000 before taxes, licensing and unexplained dealer costs. That's a bit over $21,000 including thiose costs. I can beat almost everyone off the line, its quiet, I'm not paying over $3/gallon for gas. What's not to like?

Answer: although most EV owners charges their cars in their garage while they are sleeping and charging stations are pretty common along interstates, there needs to be more of a charging station buildout along two lane highways.

Bloomberg claims that by 2023, EV's will be manufactured for about the same price as gasmobiles.

• The average price per kilowatt-hour for batteries is expected to hit $101 in 2023, according to a report by BloombergNEF.
• That would make it possible for EVs to be priced the same as comparable gasoline-powered vehicles and likely increase their adoption.
• The report also notes that Bloomberg expects the average price of battery packs to hit $58 per kWh in 2030 and notes that solid-state batteries could help speed up the drop in prices.

^ can I borrow it sense the taxpayers pay people to buy it,they should be considered public property lol
Hybrid And Electric Vehicle Tax Benefits In California


California residents can save big on the purchase of a new Chevrolet Volt or Bolt EV by combining a federal tax credit up to $3,750 with a state of California rebate of up to $2,500 on Bolt EV or $1,500 on Volt.

Are they that bad that they have to pay people $6200 to buy it ?

The federal incentives alone are up to $7500.

Now EV owners are right up there with the greedy banks,business owners and everybody else that has to be taxpayer subsidized in order to buy a car.

I am just busting chops but not really,why should taxpayers have to subsidize EV owners who never pay gas tax to drive on the roads that everybody else has to pay for.

Its like driving a section 8 car

That is the issue people have against all of this,if you want a EV fine,buy one out if your pocket and not mine,no government has ever paid my way to buy a car,the question is,are costs coming down or are the taxpayer incentives increasing .

The Detroit 3 automakers said the aggressive EV sales goals can only be met with billions of dollars in government incentives including consumer subsidies, EV charging networks as well as "investments in R&D, and incentives to expand the electric vehicle manufacturing and supply chains in the United States."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...ort/ar-AAMXPOU

That is the people that build the cars,telling you that they do not make economical sense to produce.

So not only asking the taxpayer to pay the EV owners way,they are also asking for billions for R/D , pay for the infrastructure and charging stations but also pay for manufacturing and building supply stations.

So EVs have now become a symbol of a socialist society that requires the taxpayers to fund private enterprise for a product ,that they will then sell for a profit,that they will not pay back those who funded it in the first place.

At least with a Bolt if it is cold out,one can warm their hands as it burns to the ground.

LG cannot build a refrigerator that lasts a week,but we as taxpayers have to pay them to build a battery,to put in a car,that we the taxpayers have to pay the company to build in the first place,so they can sell it to the public,that we the taxpayer have to pay in order for them to buy it,then we the taxpayers have to pay to throw up charging stations ,so they can charge up the battery in said car.

My drug days are long gone,but I want some of what they are smoking.

I need new tires,can I get me some section 8 tires?

I can imagine Henry Ford is rolling around in his grave about now,wasting all his time and resources,personal innovation and building a company from the ground up.

All he had to do was tell the world they were all going to die from climate change,but he could save them with his newfangled Model A,all he needed from the government and taxpayers was 400 billion dollars.

It should be the same as always,if the auto makers cannot build a product that does not carry its own weight it should be dropped from the line up,and not go to the taxpayers to pay the losses.

Unless of course I can receive some stock certificates in exchange for my investment in the companies.

Outside of that ,all we have done is Nationalize private enterprise.

Ayn Rand nailed it.

At least with the Pinto somebody had to slam into the back for them to catch on fire,now we have EVs just spontaneously combusting,what happens if a woman is in the car and their child is strapped in the back seat in a car seat and the car burst into flames?

A blind man could have seen sticking anything LG into a car is a recipe for disaster from 1000 miles away.

These cars are being tested on the public in public streets and are dangerous because even the manufacturers do not know what will happen to them at any given time.

Now I actually feel bad for EV owners,they have to rely on section 8 in order to buy a vehicle,it would probably save the taxpayers billions if we set up a go-fund-me so they could buy a bus pass.

We could take that same 400 billion and invest it in our cities that need it the most and make a better life for millions for generations to come that actually provides a positive return to the taxpayers,all they are doing now is creating more taxes for an overtaxed population that sees no light at the end of the tunnel.

Can people with block heaters plug those vehicles into those charging stations on a cold day? It would be only right sense they are being asked to pay for them.

I am glad at least GM is doing this on US soil and providing local employment for the moment,but we all know just as soon as the government hints at dropping incentives,they will be moving offshore under the guise that they cannot produce EVs economically in the states,they are already saying that.

I don't know how old your article is but GM cars and Teslas no longer receive federal credits. I didn't receive a tax credit on mine. After a car manufacturer has sold 200,000 partly EV vehicles, its federal credits begins to disappear. GM and Tesla have sold so many EVs that they no longer get federal credits. California can do what it wants.

"As of Tuesday, Oct. 1, [[2019) General Motors' tax credit was halved yet again from $3,750 to $1,875. The full federal credit is $7,500 for new electric vehicle purchases. General Motors, which has the Bolt EV and the now-discontinued hybrid plug-in Volt along with Cadillac options, will lose the tax incentive completely after March 2020."

In my state and many others, EV owners pay higher annual registration fees because they aren't paying gas taxes at the pump. This has been going on since 2017 in Wisconsin. I pay an extra $100/year on my registration. Fair enough?

46,000 people died in US auto accidents last year. Not one person has died in a Bolt fire. Out of 140,000 Bolts, only 12 have caught fire and there have been no resultant deaths. I'm more likely to get bit by a rattle snake. And get this, when GM gets around to replacing the batteries with new batteries, my 100,000 mile battery warranty is renewed from scratch. I'm Hoping that I'm the last in line.

EVs haven't even hit their stride. The production Tesla Plaid does 0-60 in 1.99 seconds. But as much fun as lapping Indy race cars with a production car might be, the Plaid needs to be recharged at about 396 miles. Adequate additional charge would take 7-9 minutes. But for those of us who don't race in the Indy 500, 396 miles of charge would get us from Detroit to Manistique.

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Originally Posted by Wheels

LETS GO BRANDON

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Let me get this straight. We are going to kill fossil fuel production and use only clean energy. Our current electric grid is antiquated and struggling to keep up but we are going to kill all the coal plants and eliminate the natural gas plants. At the same time we are going electrify planes trains trucks and cars.

What could go wrong?

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Originally Posted by Wheels

Our current electric grid is antiquated and struggling to keep up but we are going to kill all the coal plants and eliminate the natural gas plants.

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The grid needs to be updated anyway. The interstate system was rolled out in the 50's and needs to be updated. Remember the giant blackout in the early 2000s? Given the same set of circumstances, it would happen again.

The local grids need to be upgraded, too. So far the local utility companies have been putting off upgrading by asking and/or forcing consumers to use less electricity, but that only works for so long.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

The grid needs to be updated anyway. The interstate system was rolled out in the 50's and needs to be updated. Remember the giant blackout in the early 2000s? Given the same set of circumstances, it would happen again.

The local grids need to be upgraded, too. So far the local utility companies have been putting off upgrading by asking and/or forcing consumers to use less electricity, but that only works for so long.

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You are absolutely right the current grid needs massive upgrades just to handle current demand. Just look at rolling blackouts on the west coast.

Now we want to compound that problem with less options for production and multiply demand infinitely. LETS GO BRANDON

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

The grid needs to be updated anyway. The interstate system was rolled out in the 50's and needs to be updated. Remember the giant blackout in the early 2000s? Given the same set of circumstances, it would happen again.

The local grids need to be upgraded, too. So far the local utility companies have been putting off upgrading by asking and/or forcing consumers to use less electricity, but that only works for so long.

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The guy that owns Tesla said it would take until 2050 to fully integrate EV into the system,he also said by that time the previous EVs that had reached their 10 year mark will be ready to be scrapped for the batteries to be recycled back into the system.

So we already have GM saying there is no way they can economically produce an EV.

Tesla is saying that once an EV is manufactured it has a 10 year or less life span.

The current automotive finance system is gearing up and already implemented a 7 year auto loan program.

So there will be no or very little of a used EV market as we know it today and those who can afford it will buy a new financed EV,run it for 7 years which at that point it is useless,then buy another new one,rinse and repeat.

So in the future odds are there will not be one US citizen that will be driving a paid off car,unless you pay cash for it.

Bit the lower tier of workers will forever be stuck with a car payment or take the bus.

He is also saying there is no way the world cannot supply and produce the demand that is being presented today.

It does not matter if the grid can handle it or not,they take the stance of we will figure it out later,push the cars out.

They splash the news every day about the port back-ups in California that is causing the delays and will destroy Christmas,in their words.

They will never mention that it was actually California that banned the trucks and it took affect in 2020,any truck built before 2011 is banned from the port,which wiped out all the independent drivers.

And sends the business to the largest haulers that can afford the new fleets,which drives up costs and created the driver shortage.

Thats California dictating to the rest of the country and if you do not do as they say,they will stop the flow of goods and crush the rest of the country into submission.

Personally I think that is a federal crime to impede the interstate flow of commerce,but sense they figure they are saving the planet they are above the law.

But apparently nobody has a problem with one state dictating to the others and actually controlling their individual economies.

That is my whole beef with all of this,I do not care about EVs and I will be dead and buried before they impact the country in a major way,but in the meantime they are putting the cart in front of the horse where the public is concerned and if people thought there was a massive divide between the rich and poor or the have and have nots,Washington is currently saying hold my beer,you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Anybody that thinks politicians are coming up with 8 trillion dollar packages in order to save the planet,has not been paying attention to how politicians have been in the last 50 years.

I really think before we go any further,we should make it a law that no member of congress or any other representative in Washington is allowed to own any stocks in anything green related,even green paint.

They always seems to have a habit of going in broke and coming out worth hundreds of millions in some cases.

Now is the time we as the citizens,if we want any say in how this plays out in the future,needs to speak up and set the stage,otherwise future generations will not be allowed on that stage.

Contrary to the narrative,we are not all going to die tomorrow.

How come we cannot saddle the horse before we blindly jump on it.

We know we need to fix the current infrastructure and while we are doing that we can also prepare it for future demands that the EVs and everything else will require.

We have known for centuries that mass transportation moves the most people in the most efficient way.

We know rail moves goods at pennies per dollar and does not tear up roads like trucks do,they already proved that in the 1800s.

It’s not that complicated,if we are going to throw trillions of dollars at something is it not better to fix what we already have while preparing it for the future at the same time ?

It does not matter ICE or EV a trashed road will still be a trashed road if it does not get fixed.

And nobody can say,by that time the roads will be fixed,because that is what they said in the 1950s and here we are.

Look at Benton Harbor with its lead water pipes and now they have to drink bottled water.

How long has it been sense you hear that story and how many millions of taxpayer dollars did it cost and how many children are permanently effected by it for the rest of their life?

We cannot even provide safe and clean drinking water to a large part of our population,but we can sure spend trillions in order to save the planet with EVs ?

What exactly will be left to save?

Trillions of dollars to put EVs on the roads of cities that are continuing to disintegrate with millions of students being left behind in the future,what is the point of being able to cruise around in a destroyed city that has little hope in a EV while saying,I helped save the planet.

We sure have some really screwed up priorities.

Any volunteers for the new EV airplane? Seen any charging stations floating around up there yet?

Throwing trillions of taxpayer dollars at a assbackward save the planet with EVs scheme is a expensive pipe dream for the average Joe,but a very profitable enterprise for those who are implementing it.

If a cargo ship puts out the same co as 10,000 cars on a one way voyage,what do you do?

Re-evaluate the cargo ship or remove the 10,000 cars from the picture and tell those 10,000 people - buck up you are helping to save the planet,here’s your bus pass.

Is there really any question why we are pushing ev so hard?

https://nypost.com/2018/03/15/inside...ium=SocialFlow

^^^ Richard, thanks for the info on the Lithium countries with a "choke-hold" by Chinese inverstments.

We are seeing a lot of countries with deep pocket investments by China... and many of them are seeing the pact with the proverbial devil. So China has started to become very unpopular in many of them [except of course the politicians with the kickbacks].

Remember how in the Middle Ages Jews were the bankers among many European countries/states, because Usury laws forbade Christians from lending money "with interest", a restrictions not found with "non-Christian" Jews. The end result was that once the money owed by countries in western Europe to Jewish bankers got to be too much, they simply drummed up fictitious charges against Jews, and the resulting Pogroms and exiling of the Jews kept pushing them farther east into poorer eastern Europe [until the 20th Century]. It was a convenient way for indebted Kings/rulers to eliminate debts owed to them, by banishing them.

Well I think we are already seeing this sort of thing happening with the Chinese [without killing anyone], as new governments take over some of the countries indebted to the Chinese. I'm not sure if the ramifications of lowering the credit ratings of countries are worth it or not, but I do believe that China will be left with a lot of bad debts in the future.

I am reminded of the situation with the Shanghai university wanting [and paying for] a new campus in Budapest Hungary. Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban is getting a LOT of heat and protests over that arrangement, and the question of how it is "financed", including charges of graft, are making China VERY unpopular in Hungary right now. I can see this scenario playing out in many countries, where politicians in China's "pocket" may be voted out, followed by possible loan defaults.

https://www.rferl.org/a/fudan-univer.../31236149.html

^ true but China can do what we always have done in the past,internally overthrow governments.

A lot of the South American country’s that China is invested in have a history of dictatorships and socialist run,mostly by coups,we saw how easy it was in Hati,which was a few months away from returning to a dictatorship.

There is a percentage of the population in each of those countries that supported the previous dictatorships and were very welcoming of a heavy socialist based society.

To me Hungary is leaning towards a nationalist country,can’t say I blame them as they were never really in control of their destiny in the past,they did kick Soros out who was trying his best to gain as much control as possible.

China is looking for dominance,they are doing the same thing with Russia as Germany did,Putin is playing their game right now but Putin is not stupid so they are also setting their own stage in the Middle East with support.

What is interesting is they have completed the pipeline with Germany,where we in this country are looking to destroy everything fossil fuel related.

So why would Germany make that arraignment,or make a deal with the devil over a pipeline if their goal was to remove fossil fuel from the picture?

That’s why I think all of this save the planet, is a pandering facade,all of these countries got together and set a goal of what they are going to accomplish by 2030,the only one that actually believes it is France and California,everybody else has to answer to their population where a majority want cheap fuel.

In the UK,heating season is coming up,so they were pushing to change the efficiency of the heating boilers,right now $800 or less buys you a replacement boiler,the proposed new one? $3500

The average home owner cannot afford that with no notice,which is what a heating boiler gives you when it goes out.

There is a massive difference in finding support for going green but the majority can usually figure out the feasibility of it and what it will cost them.

California is gung hoe about green and alternative energy,but do you really believe people of places like Belair bluffs will allow their multi million dollar ocean views to be tarnished by ugly wind turbines?

In Belgium it takes 50 wind turbines to power 160,000 homes.

Imagine how many it would take to power the city of Detroit? That’s homes we are referring to,not factories.

Zug island would sink if you put as many wind turbines that would be needed.

Belgium boasts the most amount of wind turbines in the world,they started back in 2008 and were only able to add 6% capacity per year.

There are 280 million cars in the United States,yearly production 2.5 million in 2019.

GMs target is providing 40% of EV production by 2025.

They cannot produce enough EVs every year to replace the ICE vehicles that are looking at eliminating in the process,there are going tkk ok be a lot of people walking by the way it is currently going.

"let me tell you why I know more about the car industry than all of the car companies!" Ok, guy.

I am looking out for your best interests,said no car company ever.

If the car companies gave a damn about saving the planet,they could have shown it along time ago,starting with not shelving the Turbine car,which could have and did run on zero emissions.

Now all of the sudden when the government is talking trillions in free money,they jump on the band wagon in order to get them some.

The car companies have fought tooth and nail against emission standards for decades.

Nice contribution,while contributing nothing,must be a car company representative.

It took them 80 years before they were able to build a car that lasted over 100,000 miles and the only reason they did it was because the competition ate their lunch.

It took a foreign company to buy Chrysler in order to build a car that was not crap.

They are going to do what they profit at and like I posted it is there in black and white.

It is not economical for a US car manufacturer to build an EV without government incentives and backing.

Their words not mine,you have a section 8 EV also? Maybe that’s why triggered.

Like I also posted,if you like your EV you can keep your EV,but drop all of the saving the planet BS that goes with it,because it is not.

In the late 70s early 80s,we built a hydraulic powered car that was run off of the technology at the time,a standard car battery ran the pump,the pump ran a generator that resupplied the battery.

Because we were on military time and owned by the military,they kept it.

There are more ways then one to move a vehicle and ways that it can be done without destroying the planet that you are trying to save.

Ever wonder why the only path for EVs is battery powered?

The Germans were developing hydrogen powered power plants back in 1940,they already figured it out and was in the testing stage at the close of the war,all of the sudden everything disappeared and everybody forgot about that ?

Look at films from the space race times,you will see 2 different types of launches one is rocket power the other is pulse jet,another Nazi invention that worked.

Pulse jet has no moving parts and burns more efficiently,cheaper to produce.

They would never admit they were using pulse jet technology back then because it takes thousands of man hours and trillions of dollars to play with rockets there is no money in pulse jet.

The V2 rockets that were bombing London on a daily basis were pulse jet,so it worked.

The technology is there and has been,it’s not about saving the planet,it about maximizing profit by feeding technology out little by little while letting each level play out until it is no longer profitable.

Ask Tucker about how all that works.

A company releases a product and claims it is the best product on the market,people buy it and when sales begin to wane the next ad campaign is New and improved.

If it was the best product on the market why would it need to be new and improved?

All it is,is marketing for dollars.

Except now it does not need to be the best in the market,they just have to convince the public that they are saving the planet and they will die if they do not switch to their product.

You do not have to be a genius to develop and build a car,you just have to sell the idea to investors and convince the public that you have a better mouse trap.

Nothing has changed in 100 years,it did not take them 80 years to figure out how to build a battery,so to say car companies know their business,of course they do because they are in the business of convincing you to buy their product,it does not matter if it is a total piece of junk,Aries K,Suzuki Samari the list goes on,they just have to convince you,you need it.

Two things make the conversion to a majority EVs by 2030 a dud.

It takes a limited resource that earth does not naturally replenish,it’s like the taconite fields of northern Minnesota that fed the steel mills,it’s gone,all used up and it does not regenerate.

Chinas control of the raw materials,which in turn controls the market.

So we are going to shelve everything else transportation related in order to spend trillions on a EV that will no longer be technology feasible in 2030.

It is spending trillions of dollars on a stop gap form of transportation in order to buy time,until the next piece of technology is released to the public while needing trillions more to put that in motion.

But the wake of devastation that will be done to the planet in order to accomplish that,is no different then the impact of the industrial revolution.

So what exactly is the end game?

Outside of removing all options from your life to where it boils down to one,a battery.

Terrorists are smart to,so are other nefarious people,flying airplanes into buildings is so 90s,with everything connected in this country including cars an emp will shut down half of the country and as we are already witnessing,a simple computer program can shut everything down in seconds.

What we are doing is putting all of the eggs in one basket and making this country vulnerable,while they are removing all options.

It would be different if we were actually saving the planet in the process but as it stands all we are doing is opening the door with no options if chaos hits,if that does,saving the planet will be the least of the worries.

I guess we do not like to learn from the past and apply it to the future.

We live in a country with a trashed power grid as it is,lots of storms and floods as there have always been,what are you going to do if your only mode of transportation is an EV and you lose power for 15 days or more?

I guess you can always fire up your gasoline powered generator and charge the car,but wait they were banned already,guess you are stuck in place for the next 15 days,wondering how you are going to get milk fir that baby.

The car companies,politicians,companies looking to bank on green,they do not give a crap about us,they are in business for profit, green or not,we are the ones it falls on to fund everything,and suffer the consequences if it goes to hell,we are the ones now that are supposed to be looking out for the future generations and the tax burden that will fall on them,we are the ones now that should be saying,let’s do this the smart way while not leaving the destruction in its wake like the past has proven it does.

We have become straight line focused on EVs while removing every other option from the table,even things like mass transit and rail that we already know moves the most people the most efficient,it was your best friend the car companies that destroyed that aspect,on purpose and by design.

And now we are placing our hopes and dreams on them under the guise of saving the planet ?

They are a business and a corporation

The number 1 objective for a corporation is to make money for the shareholders,nothing else.

They were evil 1 year ago,now they are your best friend because they told you they want to save the planet?

Hoodwinked I believe is the correct term,so do not be a dupe.

As a taxpayer,I say before GM gets a dime of taxpayer funding for RD and incentives for buying their products,products that they should be developing on their own dime because they will profit from it.

They need to be telling the public how they are going to contribute to replacing the streetcar systems in the cities that they destroyed by design.

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Originally Posted by Richard

I am looking out for your best interests,said no car company ever.

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I am going to fully admit that I didn't read your entire post because it sure seems like you're arguing against something I didn't say. Of course the car companies aren't these benevolent, altruistic organizations that exist only to make the world a better place. They exist to make money. And what I'm trying to tell you is that your whole "electric cars will NEVER work" seems to be a stance that EVERY car company disagrees with. They know more about this than you or I do, and they clearly think they can make it work.

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Originally Posted by detmsp

I am going to fully admit that I didn't read your entire post because it sure seems like you're arguing against something I didn't say. Of course the car companies aren't these benevolent, altruistic organizations that exist only to make the world a better place. They exist to make money. And what I'm trying to tell you is that your whole "electric cars will NEVER work" seems to be a stance that EVERY car company disagrees with. They know more about this than you or I do, and they clearly think they can make it work.

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I never posted anywhere that they would never work,they worked back in 1900.

Right now they are importing Chinese cars and a little truck that you can buy for $7000 they get 25-30 miles off of regular car batteries.

As long as you are under 6’ tall they would be perfect for those living in the city.

That is my point,we are spending trillions to convert to EVs in order to save the planet so we do not die,those cars will sell for 30 to 80,000.

While the Chinese already have a cheap no frills car for $7000,what percentage of the population drives more then 25 miles a day?

My opinion is also while we are straight lining spending trillions on EVs and charging stations,we are completely bypassing other forms of more efficient modes of transportation,not to even mention the grid that is needed to support all of that.

Go back 25 years ago ,solar was going to save the planet,hundreds of billions in taxpayer dollars were spent to pump up solar.

China controls all solar production in the US,the panels are made there and assembled here,the same thing will happen with the cars like it did in the past.

What percentage of the population of the United States is dependent on solar at this time?

25 years later it is still not feasible for the average home owner to be dependent on solar.

But all of the taxpayers chipped in to make it happen.

The biggest problem now is they are already banning ICE which is forcing everybody to go directly to battery powered everything, while pulling and depending on a grid that already has issues meeting demand.

Or putting the cart before the horse,as it stands now,it does not matter if you have a charging station every foot when rolling blackouts become common as they allready are in much of the county during high demand or storms,they will be useless.

People are going to be in for sticker shock when it comes to heating their homes,fueling their cars,going to the grocery store and buying products that all depend on fossil fuel in the production process come winter.

Then people will understand what happens when you go cold Turkey EV. And try to save the planet in a day.

I paid $3.99 per gallon for high grade today from WAWA and that is before the winter price increases.

I am thinking it will be $5 per gallon average and places like California $7,remember what happened last time.

The reality is we the taxpayers are giving these companies billions in order for them to research,develop and build a product that they will sell to us so they will profit.

Even after they flat out said it was not economical to do so.

Tesla has collected $4.9 billion in taxpayer dollars so far.

We paid them to build a car that they will sell to us,where is our cut of the profit?

Now do you see why auto manufacturers are pushing green?

There is money in it and it does not cost them to collect it.

$4.9 billion and we did not even get a kiss out of the deal.

Hoodwinked we are as a population.

"Musk announced his company's plans to bring a $25,000 electric car to market within the next three years that would be "on par" or "slightly better than a comparable gasoline car." To achieve that, Tesla counts on its own ability to dramatically cut the costs of battery packs, which are still the main driver behind the relatively high prices for electric vehicles.According to research conducted by BloombergNEF, the inflation-adjusted average price of battery packs for cars has dropped from $1,160 per kWh in 2010 to just $156 in the past year. How much of a difference does that make to the price of a car, you ask? A big one. Consider the Tesla Model 3 for example: The most popular electric car in the U.S. comes with a battery capacity between 50 and 75 kWh. If you decide on the model with 75 kWh, that car’s battery now costs around $11,700 instead of nearly $90,000 it would have cost ten years ago." -Statistahttps://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/...rmal/7713.jpeg

^ how can they determine what future battery costs will be when they do not control the raw materials needed to make them?

I agree that is the way it is with technology as the time goes on the product becomes cheaper,I paid $8000 for a 486dx computer years ago when you can now buy 100X more powerful for $200.

Per the link I posted,by that time China will control 80% of the raw materials needed to make those batteries,what Mr Musk says today is meaningless.

He also said the world does not have the production capability to replace ICE power by 2030 at the current goal.

If you control the resources,you control the market,China will do what they do with everything else,flood the market with cheap alternatives while jacking up the price on the raw materials to everybody else, so they can control the competition.

Mr Musk does not have those raw materials in his back pocket,he is not in control of pricing.

In a real world yes it would become feasible,but not as it stands.

If China is already mass producing a EV using today’s technology at $7000 it only stands to reason as the battery prices go down so does their costs and they could sell the same vehicle for $3000.

It’s a very expensive,for the taxpayers,zero sum game.

Remember when Yugo came out? $2500 bought you a brand new car when at the time it was $12k for an American version.

Ford is doubling down also,spending billions for a battery factory in the UK.

But they have always had a strong market there,EVs are no different then the birth of the auto industry in Detroit,over 200 manufacturers at that time,it is getting close to that already worldwide with EVs all wanting to produce 100s of thousand cars,before even tapping into the commercial market.

They are all going to be competing for that little pile of raw materials,which they will have to pass down to the consumer,so they will have to cut costs in other areas,these are new startups that do not have the legacy costs that Ford and GM do,it’s like everything else,if you want to make money,jump on the bandwagon and ride the wave to the peak,then bail out,while everybody else including the taxpayers are stuck with the fallout.

I still believe if we the taxpayers do not have a plan B in place,there is going to be a lot of people walking and in dire straights,because at that time all of their alternatives will have been removed.

You need fossil fuels to build bicycles.

They are trying now to push through requiring all utilities to be 80% renewables in ten years,the average now is 30%,that is hundreds of billions of dollars,anybody that pays an electricity bill knows who pays that.

They did leave them an out,they can buy carbon credits at an enormous cost in order to continue operating as is but same as the other way,the costs get passed down to the consumer.

Its not just EVs it is everything that impacts our daily lives as we know it,talk transfer of income to the top? This is not only going to turbo charge it it will have the added bonus of supercharging it.

Detroit has a poverty rate of 30.6 currently,when you factor in all the increased costs that are here and will continue to rise to cover all of this what happens if you increase that by 15%.

Can cities like Detroit cover a 45% poverty rate? You know they cannot.

I can afford a $500 to $600 monthly increase as can many others,think of how many more that cannot and who covers them ?

It’s nice to have lofty goals but there is a human element behind those goals that will pay the price,we need to be looking at the bigger picture outside of a battery and the ramifications of.

Not sure how they come up with the drop in costs for the batteries,they must be the only thing on the planet that has not been hit with inflation.

2010 I could buy a new car battery for $45 same battery today is $120,2010 you could buy a top of the line F250 for $40,000 or less,same truck is $75-$80,000 today.

There is no way they can say because the cost of batteries has gone down in the past they will be lower in the future,they cannot predict inflation that far ahead.

We just watched prices increase over 600% on some items in a matter of days,those prices will be the new normal,if people are paying them now they certainly are not going to lower them out of the goodness of their hearts.

If they are able to predict future costs like that,damnit man give me some help with lottery numbers it may convince me to start playing it.