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Is Detroit too poor to move forward with High Tech Communications ?
Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile & Sprint are testing 5G network technology.
AT&T announced Oklahoma City, Charlotte and Raleigh will join
Atlanta, Dallas and Waco in the initial launch this year.
Major network equipment companies like Nokia, Ericsson & Huawei,
are building the backbone and equipment to support 5G.
Detroit becomes less significant every year.. The commercial rental market is cannibalistic; suburbs i.e. Southfield and Troy fighting downtown Detroit for office space. New business entering Detroit from other states or countries is virtually non existent. Detroit has one of the lowest [[at 5%) foreign born populations of "large cities" in the USA. Literally zero functioning public transportation. The highest auto insurance in the USA. Always in the top 3 most violent cities in the USA. One of the highest property taxes in the USA. Functional literacy...50%?.. We could go on and on.... Only Ann Arbor gives Detroit any credibility on a national/international scale...
The stumbling block is fitting new 5G investments into local zoning,
permitting and other regulations optimized for prior network architectures.
5G’s architecture is radically different from its earlier counterparts.
Instead of widely spaced large cell towers, 5G relies on smaller
but denser configurations of shoebox-size antennae,
many of which will be attached to existing buildings,
streetlights and utility poles.
I will predict now that Detroit will get 5G in a few years, probably roughly when most cities do. There's nothing special about Detroit that makes it extra-difficult. While Detroit has a relatively poor population, it is dense by modern US standards and has lots of cellphone users. My understanding is that T-Mobile is already planning to deploy 600MHz [[5G capable) cells in Detroit, but can't turn them on until their spectrum conflicts with WXYZ and other local TV stations are resolved when the TV stations release those frequencies in 2020.
I think many people in Metro-Detroit prioritize their phone bill above water, electricity, and cable. I don't see any issue with 5G coming to the area.
The catch - is the City of Detroit - itself.
The regulation/permitting/redtape nightmare
of the new 5G system architecture. [[It's a different beast, small cell)
Applications for small-cell implementations
can take up to 18 to 24 months for approval, which is
similar to the time required to approve one large macro cell tower
In many cities, the approval cycle requires several
separate tribunals for approval. Committees such as
a neighborhood association, a planning commission,
a zoning commission, the county council and others
may each require a separate decision-making process.
If Detroit wants to become a """Smart City"" of the high tech future
it better figure out real quick how to deploy 5G , or be left behind, quick
Municipalities might need to research a method of
efficient fee administration.
Rather than establishing a different price for each type
of telephone pole, lamp post or streetlight,
cities could create simple asset classes
based on location, power requirements, maintenance
requirements and engineering charges, thus
providing optimal terms and conditions for each
small-cell deployment, while reducing unnecessary paperwork.
Will Detroit Be Left Behind In 5G ?
Detroit made it into cellular, 3G, 4G, WTF wouldn't it make the transfer into 5G? I'm more interested in Gilbert's Rocket Fiber than this, but it is what it is.
^^^^ - Because it no longer uses those BIG TALL TOWERS --- thats why
5G uses a different wavelength, it relies on LOTS of smaller antenna
Nice to know you have lots of coin for Rocket Fiber ; Honkey Tonk
[[It's something like $70.00/mo for 1,000 Mbps)
The reality is, companies are only focused on high growth regions for expansions [[as they're taken into consideration the significant increase in future potential customers in addition to present potential customers).Quote:
Originally Posted by Colombian Dan
Detroit isn't growing at all, relatively speaking.
5G internet will probably make it to Detroit eventually, but not before all of the more highly sought-after markets get it first.
5G is dual band - traditional <6GHz bands as well as ~28GHz bands. The lower bands still use the traditional large towers for long range at current speed, the higher frequencies are used for the new high speed low latency connections and will probably need the small cell sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
In other words, the large towers aren't going away. Large cities already use something similar to small cells as urban environments are terrible for RF propagation via large, high power antennas. Also, in a super-dense area like New York City, a large cell tower can be overwhelmed with connections [[there's a physical limit how many simultaneous connections a single tower can handle) so you use more, smaller cell towers.
I used to pay $2600 a month for T3 44 mps but now pay $59 per month fiber optic 100/100 which does everything I need including streaming,who outside of business needs 1,000 mps?Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
The catch is Detroit has to invest in 5G. [[IoT and Smart City concepts)
Issues of extreme demand within a small geographical area [[hyperlocal);
System to remain stable at ultra-low latency [[hypermobile);
Be able to support millions of connections at any instance [[hyperscale).
5G is expected to impact competitiveness
- Remember Detroit lost Amazon HQ contest
Nice to know you consider $840 a year "serious coin".Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
If Oklahoma City is big enough of a market I'm sure Detroit is too... :rolleyes:
OKC is one of the fastest growing cities in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
DETROIT isn't even on the radar screen for 5G, according to AT&T
The city simply isn't ready, and has done nothing to entice it.
https://www.nbreports.com/att-5g-evolution-cities
The City of Detroit government has to actively pursue it, or get left behind.
5G networks rely on dense networks of small cells.
Small cell deployments often need access to the public rights of way.
Carriers target CITY owned assets for the installation of radios and antennas.
It might involve trenching city streets to lay fiber for fronthaul and/or backhaul.
Michigan has done nothing to lay foundation of small cell legislation
Will real estate developers spend more to make
their buildings ready for small cells ?
The added cost of foresight and making a
building ready for small cells
is likely to be lower than the cost
of making adaptations after the structure is complete.
All four of the carriers want to deploy tens of thousands
of outdoor small cells to support 5G
Certainly true. But Detroit is as well-positioned as anyone to make changes like you describe.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
I just listened to a podcast wherein David Brooks [[NYT) talked about meeting with Mike Duggan. He was celebrating the resurgence of competence-driven municipal executives. Duggan was listed alongside a few other towns where good governance is being pursued rather than focusing on in-fighting. He said he was impressed by Duggan discussing where street-light poles were to be placed. Maybe you've connected the dots for me. Maybe he was talking about how to best adapt to 5G in Detroit.
Not true. OKC is a slow-growth metro, and quite small. It's around the size of GR.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
What is the point of this thread? Is there a serious argument that a U.S. metro of 5 million will somehow not receive 5G?
This thread dovetails nicely into why Detroit lacks things...The culture simply does not support modern technology. Numbers vary a bit.. but a very large portion of Detroit residents do not have an internet connection. Attending school on a daily basis is a foreign idea to half the population. Households led by single women with multiple children from different absentee fathers doesn't advance the technology gap. Municipal theft of power lines, light poles, construction equipment is rife in Detroit. Adding more "gadgets" to existing light poles will only incentivize more people to cut down light poles. Detroit will be last to receive 5G. Duggan may be competent, but the people he leads are of a completely different caliber....Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
I share your concerns about Detroit, but not your pessimism about our citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colombian Dan
Yes, all of what you say is true about some of Detroit. I believe that there are a large, quiet population as well of people living here in every neighborhood who 'get it'. We can succeed by focusing less on the loud malcontents who are marginalizing our citizens, and more on the great residents of our city who are open to change.
Duggan's election shows that it is possible for a technocrat to get elected. I hope all of Detroit's leaders can now see just what great things are possible when you focus on competence and not on divisive identity politics.
Here's an idea...
Take all the money the City spends on the office of Human Rights, and spend it all subsidizing cellphone and data service for anyone who has lived in Detroit for more than 10 years. That'll help human rights much more.
It all boils down to INFRAstructure, something severely lacking in Detroit.
Detroit just barely crawled out of a Bankruptcy, it's basically still broke.
The City itself, investing big money, into something like the 5G, won't happen
Those "other" cities, were better adapted to apply 5G system architecture.
Some white papers, reports, claim 5G represents
a fundamental transformation of the role that
mobile technology plays in society.
LACK of EDUCATION can halt progress -- https://goo.gl/images/KUt1ti
Residents of Warren,Michigan had to wait several years, [[put on hold) in order to get Smart Meters from DTE - due to the eclectic and abundant stupidity of several dumb individuals complaining about "radiation" which they knew nothing about. They could not pass a high school class involving discussion on Electrons, Protons, Neutrons and the Radiation given off by atoms which had more than the normal complement of energy-- i.e. "excited" atoms. These imbeciles made such a fuss as to get Warren City Council to stop DTE from installing the units.
***In the meantime the rest of us, perhaps updating an older home with new fuse panel, had to wait years to have a SmartMeter installed.
As usual, yet more "alternative facts" from Bham1982...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
https://www.newmarklsb.com/uploads/m...lgnllg0qp6.pdf
"Oklahoma City has seen immense growth over the past decade. Asof 2017, the Oklahoma City Metro area’s population is nearing 1.4million people. Its population has grown by more than 6% [[doublethe national average) since the 2010 Census. Since 2010, theOklahoma City MSA is the 10th fastest growing large metro in thecountry [[more than 1 million population) and has grown twice asfast as the U.S."
I think the population thing is a red herring and has nothing to do with it
5G is a different animal altogether [[think small size, not big)
Another key technical aspect of 5G networks will be the use
of high-frequency spectrum, above 6 GHz, and particularly
the use of millimetre wave [[mmW) spectrum.
The mmW signals experience orders-of-magnitude more path-loss
than the microwave signals currently used in most wireless systems.
The 5G system has the potential to offer multi-Gbps data rates
at a lower marginal cost than previous technologies due to
the potential allocation of much more bandwidth at these frequencies.
However, real-world measurements of mmW spectrum [[28 GHz and 73 GHz)
indicate cell sites using these frequencies
will have small radii of 100–200 yards.
Those frequency bands are not for wide area coverage but local hotspots,
forcing change in the deployment cost model.
Maybe 5G will be different but most cities that implemented city wide wifi phased it out shortly,it has to be paid for and most ended up sitting outside for a good signal.
I don't think any of what you are saying is an actual problem, but let's pretend it is. 5G doesn't require small cells. It only requires small cells if you have enough people to use up your bandwidth within a cell; otherwise you can use your regular cell towers at lower frequencies. So what will most likely happen is that the providers will deploy 5G that way pretty much everywhere to provide more-or-less seamless national coverage, and will provide the smaller high-frequency cells as demand and experience dictate. But you know what; this is one of those things that will have a clear answer and which we will live long enough to find out what that answer was, unlike a bunch of other stuff that comes up on this forum. Let's check back in 2021 and see how it turned out.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
5G uses high-frequency waves that support faster speeds
but don't travel as far as current wireless frequencies.
Instead of relying on large cellphone towers
it needs "small cell" sites that are much closer together.
The barrier to 5G is the availability of spectrum,
sufficient to assure that the broadband promise happens.
A significant portion of the spectrum must be dedicated to 5G,
in the millimeter-wave bands above 30GH,
including spectrum at 60GHz, up to 70-80GHz or even higher.
Availability is the domain of government regulations,
and with 50 states, actively operating as 50 laboratories
of democracy, it's anyone's guess how it all shakes out.
Comcast will no doubt cry bloody murder as their profits get impinged.
Will the City of Detroit have the groundwork; legislation/regulation in place ?
Chattanooga Tennessee has public broadband,1000 Mbps.
Comcast took them to court to block it but lost,29 States have made public internet access illegal.
You are simply wrong about how 5G works. It is a multiband service. It is true that one way it works is with high-frequency small cells, but that is not the only way it works, and probably isn't going to be the main way it is deployed initially. In dense urban areas like Detroit, the expectation is that there will be small, high frequency cells [[although often at frequencies much lower than those you mentioned), but what will probably be deployed first is larger, lower-frequency cells which will use the existing towers, because it will take a while for demand to ramp up as people buy 5G compatible devices and pay for 5G service, and for the technology for the above 10GHz frequencies to be proven.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
In particular, T-mobile has already said that it is going to start deploying 5G 600 Mhz infrastructure in Detroit. I don't know what else to tell you, but that's just the way it is.
And if you want small cells, Verizon and Sprint have deployed a bunch of small cell sites in Detroit already, mostly around downtown and midtown. Anyway, as I said earlier, we can wait and see what happens, but what I'm reasonably sure is going to happen is nothing unusual--Detroit will get 5G along with everyone else.
I beg to differ, vehemently. Detroit is NOT a densely populated area.
The City is still economically wiped out and infrastructure is lacking.
The poverty stricken folks won't buy new phones,
and those who want to buy a new fangled 5G phone will merely be on 4G LTE for a very very long time with minimal increased anything .
Detroit will not be on leading edge of a high tech SMART CITY for a long time
A quote often repeated about 5 G
""5G is a collective bargain between the telecommunications industry and society. ""
The main challenge to 5G is LOCAL government
https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/26/5g-wireless/
""Getting 5G wireless into the hands of consumers is likely to be stymied by opposition from local city councils and mayors around the issue of site access.""
From PC MAG June 12, 2018
AT&T and Verizon are going for much higher speeds over smaller areas; T-Mobile is looking to blanket the nation, but at slower speeds. While they're all going to call their new networks 5G, it'll be like they're coming from different worlds.
Just want to point out that outside of promotional rates Comcast charges $50 for whatever their godawful lowest tier internet is if not bundled with anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
If it's possible to pay less for reliable service please let me know.
I think this is relevant to the larger discussion because the price floor is within spitting distance of the price ceiling and many people will, understandably, opt for better service, even in a less than affluent area like Detroit.
You're right, which is why they'll be able to convert existing towers to 5G. Downtown/Midtown/New Center will need the high frequency small cells for denser areas [[people, phones and buildings), but the neighborhoods generally won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
In a perfect world, we would all be on Fiber, which limits mobility.
People understand the internet runs on fiber cable under the oceans.
Basically 5G wants to take that fiber ability and move it to the airwaves.
https://youtu.be/AAbVca0aKiQ
The real range of mmWave appears to be about 1/3 of a mile.
That's a whole lot of 5G femtocells , just to cover a small area.
Does Detroit have the infrastructure money $ to invest in those networks ?
Dude...you can't be serious. This is one of the biggest cell markets in the country as evidenced by the HUGE number of providers that are in this market.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
You think these carriers are going to let small accounts pass them by? Think again - witness Metro PCS by T Mobile.
I'm not even counting burner phones or prepaids.
Telecom infrastructure is paid by the Telecom networks, not the city, county or state. When 5g is ready, every carrier will roll it out nationwide - and last I checked, Detroit is part of that.
Trolling is lame man. If you want people to listen, propose things based in reality.
People need to do their homework
Poorer communities will be losing out on 5G.
Cities negotiate with wireless firms for the privilege
of putting hardware in public rights of way.
“The [FCC] has embarked on an unprecedented federal intrusion
into local [[and state) government property rights
that will have substantial and continuing adverse
impacts on cities and their taxpayers.”
via the U.S. Conference of Mayors
The dispute comes down to the “small cell” equipment
required for much of 5G and who gets to say where it goes
There is more to it than many realize.
True 5G involves wired broadband in the ground as well.
Plans could be ground down to a halt ,
if they have to fight block by block, city by city,
to navigate local rules, rent-seeking government demands,
and junk-science fears among the public.
Detroit's median household income was $30,344 in 2017
The state's median household income in 2017 was $54,909
Let's be honest the money isn't exactly in the City of Detroit.
FYI, femtocells have a functional radius of about 10 meters. They are used to deploy service within a small building, like a home, or a small area of a larger building. They have nothing to do with the range of millimeter waves, and very little to do with the rollout of 5G.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
I guess it all depends on "your" definition of small
https://www.qorvo.com/design-hub/blo...volution-of-5g
True 5G will operate at higher frequency bandwidths, such as 28 GHz or 39 GHz.
Small cells will also be critical at these millimeter wave [[mmWave) frequencies
because the signals cannot penetrate walls or buildings
and the cell sizes will have a miniscule coverage radius.
Indoor femtocell base stations has emerged as a popular solution
to analyze the impact of offloading outdoor users to small cells.
The outdoor users are initially served by macro network
and are then progressively handed over to femtocell base stations.
Small Densification is done by installing femtocell base stations
for densification is key to enabling technology for future 5G cellular networks.
Congested areas of Detroit like parks, roundabouts, city centers,
where cars/people are packed in, will make use of the infrastructure
--- if it ever gets built -- [[regulations, licensing, provisioning, etc.)
5G small base station can use massive MIMO configuration
and they can do 3D beam forming, which LTE cannot do.
These techniques aid higher data rates and reduce latency.
The placement of small cells / Femto cells strategically
is one of the areas, which can lead
to significantly improvement in throughputs.
It’s not profitable enough to build out in certain areas
because it won’t give them adequate return on investment.
Dana Floberg, tech consumer advocacy group, Free Press.
“Local governments are on the front lines of trying
to get their communities included in these new broadband developments,”
Spectrum licensing will be on the forefront of the rule making.
Wireless companies say one of the biggest hurdles to deploying super-fast 5G networks is negotiating with city officials for permission to install antennas on city property like buildings, street lights, lamp posts and bus shelters.
The big picture: It took 30 years to erect 150,000 cell towers for 4G.
The 5G transmitters are smaller, but the networks will need five times
that many in the next few years to achieve the speeds providers are promising.
https://www.freepress.net/our-respon...s-5g-hypocrisy
Reality hurts :
---The bill would prohibit municipalities from setting their own annual lease rates and permit and zoning fees as is currently allowed for leasing public space for cell towers."Ultimately, this legislation equates to a massive giveaway of taxpayer-funded infrastructure to multi-billion dollar companies for pennies on the dollars and is not in the best interest of those we represent," Evans and Patterson wrote in a letter submitted Thursday to the House Energy Policy Committee.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/techno...nas-house-bill
Detroit is about to loose
https://twitter.com/ChadLivengood/status/1064305581039730688
The revenue wireless carriers could reap from data plans for smartphones, tablet computers and Wi-Fi-enabled vehicles dwarfs the proposed lease rate: Verizon and AT&T sell 1GB data plans for as little as $15 per month or $180 a year. Sprint advertises a 2GB data plan for $40 a month or $480 annually.
The legislation, Senate Bill 637, also calls for infrastructure companies to pay a maximum $125 annual lease payment to municipalities for new utility poles they could mount along roadways, with limited power by local road agencies to object.
In Oakland County, which is in the midst of getting 250 small-cell antennas to support Sprint's wireless network, each antenna requires an inspection by a county-hired electrician as well as new paperwork to keep track of a wave of new permits for each installation..
Each antenna also requires connecting the antenna to existing underground fiber optic cable, potentially leading to the disruption of easement landscaping, sidewalks, driveways and other infrastructure.
Wayne County had been negotiating a lease rate of $1,500 per traffic pole before the legislation started gaining traction in the Legislature.
"We're desperate for revenue, and we really think this could have been a revenue source for us," "We ought to have control over our own rights of way, over our own assets."
State Sen. Mike Nofs, sponsor of the bill, acknowledged that Oakland County's contract would be voided by the fee structure in the legislation.
Let the war begin
The legislation also has exposed a division between counties and cities, which own and maintain different roads.
You all are aware that Motor City Casino has 5G WiFi right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bragaboutme
I bet.....
NOT everybody is aware of the 5G wonderfulness Brag
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUser..._Michigan.html
http://www.hotelwifitest.com/hotels/...-casino-hotel/
You would not be confusing the 5 GigaHerz signal of a WiFi signal
with the 5G of the fifth generation of cellular mobile communications ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????
It succeeds the 4G [[LTE/WiMax), 3G [[UMTS) and 2G [[GSM) systems.
https://cdn57.androidauthority.net/w...RM-840x458.jpg
One side-effect of failing to provide infrastructural support for residents,
is that post-secondary education levels are low
relative to the rest of the nation, and declining.
It's this notion of a "smart city," needs to be fixed.
Through the deployment of a high-speed, digital wireless infrastructure,
the theory goes, citizens would have expanded access
to higher education resources.
A more educated population would make the city more attractive
to employers, and could help lure businesses and jobs back.
Standing in the way are old, perhaps ancient, city ordinances,
teetering under the weight of state and federal laws.
They were from an era where it made perfect sense for the city
to make way for sturdy poles erected between
the streets and sidewalks. [[electrical and phone lines)
I remember during the Kilpatrick administration there was an upgrade done in downtown and it spread to the whole city when the nation went from 3g to 4g. Why would that not be the case with 5g.
5G is a complete different operation involving a new concept.
5G will make use of much higher frequencies for radio communications
than has been used in cellular networks in the past.
Since higher frequencies attenuate [[weaken) with distance more rapidly
than lower frequencies, 5G will use much smaller cell sizes than previous generations.
The "leasing" of EACH telephone pole, attachment point, building flange, etc., etc. will be a massive chaotic war for literally 100,000's of antennae.
Think anywhere you could literally see with your eye [[line of sight),
a rooftop, a lamppost, a windowsill, a flagpole, etc., etc, as a SMALL antenna point, using High frequencies [[short distance) connections.
In 2016, nearly 11 GHz of mmWavespectrum was made
available for flexible wireless use, including new licensed spectrum
located in the
28 GHz [[27.5–28.35 GHz),
37 GHz [[37–38.6 GHz)
39 GHz [[38.6–40 GHz) bands,
as well as new unlicensed spectrum in 64–71 GHz.
Furthermore, in 2017, the FCC
made available an additional 1.7 GHz of mmWave
spectrum for flexible wireless use in the
24 GHz band [[24.25–24.45 GHz 24.75–25.25 GHz)
47.2–48.2 GHz band [[a segment of the wider
47.2–50.2 GHz band [[47 GHz band)).
All four mobile operators in the US have access to
high-frequency spectrum bands.
Following several acquisitions, Verizon
[[through XO Communications and Straight Path Communications)
and AT&T [[through FiberTower) own a large amount
of the licensed mmWave spectrum.
Both operators have announced that such spectrum will
underpin their planned 5G networks.
T-Mobile also holds spectrum in the 28 and
39 GHz bands in a number of major metropolitan areas,
and, in February 2018, it announced an agreement to
buy some 1150 MHz of Local Multipoint Distribution
Service [[LMDS) spectrum [[28-31 GHz) in Ohio, for 5G use.
The FCC intends to auction spectrum in the
28 GHz, 37 GHz and 39 GHz bands not
currently licensed to any single operator.
In addition, it is likely that FCC auctions will include the newly
allocated bands [[24 GHz and 47.2-48.2 GHz).
To that end, in late February 2018, the FCC Chairman
announced plans to hold an auction of spectrum in the
28 GHz band in November 2018, followed immediately
by an auction of spectrum in the 24 GHz band.
www.crainsdetroit.com/technology/patterson-evans-blast-20-fees-5g-antennas-house-bill
No reason. There are some lower 5G frequencies that aren't yet available [[not cleared by local TV stations) in the Detroit area, so those will be delayed. Will Detroit be one of the very first cities with 5G? No, the initial cities for most [[all?) carriers have already been announced. Otherwise, you can expect 5G to be deployed in Detroit just like everywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by bragaboutme
The dream gets a bit ugly
As our roads and interstates crumble, struggling cash-poor cities are expected to invest in Smart Cities sensor networks, municipal broadband, and public-safety Wi-Fi.
Telecom companies are expected to bring fiber to the home, build rural broadband networks, and finance the construction of advanced high-speed 5G networks.
The USDOT reports America has 8 million miles of paved roads with a replacement value of $16 trillion dollars, representing 506 billion square feet of non-productive real-estate.
Remember Detroit has a problem collecting taxes, income, revenue.
Where is Detroit suddenly going to get the cash to become High Tech
Many communities are unhappy with what they saw as the state setting standards for what are called small-cell wireless antennas. The cities believed their ability to regulate where small cell towers could be located and what they could look like. They saw it as an infringement on their home rule powers.
The cities believed laws would have allowed telecommunications companies to attach new wireless equipment to existing light poles, traffic signals or sign poles along public streets or construct a new pole or modify an existing pole that has wireless equipment.
This will be the "snag" to quick deployment -- red tape, in fighting, bickering, etc.
Will Detroit be left behind in 5G ?
No........
MANY would disagree with Honky Tonk - things are NOT as they were
http://www.governing.com/topics/tran...es-states.html
The undertaking becomes cost-prohibitive in less populated areas.
5G is likely to further widen the digital divide in disadvantaged parts of America.
Some poles are unable to handle extra weight & electricity of a node.
One major point of contention is the fees localities charge providers
to mount SMALL cells on poles and other public infrastructure.
Cities argue that they should be able to charge carriers market rate fees
based on land values or the value of nearby private property.
State legislatures usually set much lower caps on the annual fees
that localities can charge telecoms for each pole.
It was DAMN TOUGH to get the lights on Detroit - now 5G - get real !!!
http://www.publiclightingauthority.o...tion-schedule/
http://images.centerdigitaled.com/im...OV10_46_5G.jpg
The new FCC rules to encourage faster deployment of 5G infrastructure
are an industry effort to “usurp control over these coveted public assets and utilize publicly owned streetlight poles for their own profit"
--- NOT to the benefit of a city like Detroit
Quote:
The undertaking becomes cost-prohibitive in less populated areas.
5G is likely to further widen the digital divide in disadvantaged parts of America.
Detroit is one of the most densely populated areas of the country [[admittedly a low bar). The idea that this is an issue for 5G deployment in the city is odd.
Many might argue the population density ranking of the city
-- but the digital divide i.e those affording a high end cell phone, are real
Detroit struggled mightily to get the LIGHTS on, within the city.
Now the bickering of what can be installed on those poles begins.
Accessing public rights of way is different across the state's 83 counties,
which have contrasting fees — sometimes exorbitant ones.
Opponents of the bills, including Oakland and Wayne counties,
say the fee structure would not cover their costs,
leaving taxpayers to foot a bill that private companies should pay.
Critics also cite concerns about not being to address
aesthetic issues in historical areas
or being able to negotiate free Wi-Fi services in public places.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/government/bills-ease-upgrade-5g-wireless-systems-go-michigan-governor
Detroit barely was able to get Street Lights happening in the city.
Utility Poles pose problem for 5G
https://www.lightreading.com/service.../d/d-id/732276
On the 5g related.
The Chinese girl arrested in Canada was part of a company that is an arm of the government intelligence community,that was trying to have total control over 5G world wide,Maybe it is better to wait until we know what is happening instead of rushing in.
The USA already listens in on cell phone communications.
To think any 5G system will garner privacy is a mute point.
It is already known that many other advanced nations such as
China, Russia, Britain and Israel
have extremely sophisticated tools for digital spying.
America needs more FIBER
https://media.wired.com/photos/5a7bb...AS-2-FIBRE.jpg
Detroit needs to kick it all in high gear, or get left behind
We won't be the purveyor to the world,
of the new services and products , powered by fiber.
We are losing a technical edge, very, very quickly, to others.
https://www.wired.com/story/america-needs-more-fiber/
No FIBER means no 5G for our city - they go hand in hand
Would you believe...I already have the best Hi-Tech phone ever made and it’s over 50 years old. Good thinking, 99!!!!!!!!!!!
Attachment 37204
Meanwhile - the rest of nation still thinks Detroit truly SUCKS
and it is a matra repeated, often, continually and it is TRUE.
Detroit is stuck wallowing in the auto era - Wake the F up , okay !!!
JUST released now, in Dec 2018 ,
this is how the USA sees Detroit today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=1CBwI3heojM
For the City of Detroit to have 5G everywhere,
all those Electrical LightPoles will have to be wired for FiberOptic,
which is what drives the internet info out onto the smartphones.
Ohhh yeah and Detroit is still essentially Cash Negative, revenue issues.
I prefer oatmeal.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
It's all about the optics.............or there is no 5G in Detroit
https://www.cablinginstall.com/artic...-networks.html
https://aemstatic-ww1.azureedge.net/...IMdesignF2.jpg
https://aemstatic-ww2.azureedge.net/...IMdesignF3.jpg
From AT&T on April 20, 2018:
https://about.att.com/story/att_builds_on_5g_foundation_in_more_than_100_new_m arkets.htmlQuote:
We plan to broadly make 5G Evolution technology and the capabilities it enables available in over 500 markets later this year, including in parts of Baltimore; Charlotte, N.C.; Cleveland; Denver; Detroit; Jacksonville, Fla.; Kansas City; Las Vegas; New York City; Philadelphia; Portland; Raleigh; Salt Lake City; Seattle; and Washington, D.C.
AT&T has been installing 5G infrastructure in Greektown over the last couple of weeks. I've been watching them mount equipment on streetlight poles, and digging up the street/sidewalk to wire them up.
Detroit is NOT happy over that AT&T maneuver.
It sees it as an infringement on their ability to recover costs
for the use of public rights of way.
Accessing public rights of way is different across the
state's 83 counties, which have contrasting fees.
The current fee structure would not cover costs,
leaving taxpayers to foot a bill that private companies should pay.
Critics cite concerns about not being to address
or being able to negotiate Wi-Fi services in public places.
TAXPAYERS will get the bill.............time to wize up and dig deep into it all
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/government/bills-ease-upgrade-5g-wireless-systems-go-michigan-governor
Do you believe it is safe for you and your family ?
Did any serious scientific study/research to protect yourself & loved ones ?
AT&T have decided to push out a 5GE logo onto phones
--- that actually won’t support real 5G ------
.https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile...-they-know-it/
Doing some homework - you'll have to make choices --
https://youtu.be/Qmg_a316qb0
The top companies aren't the ones you probably know very well.
5G technology can connect vehicles, ships, buildings, meters, machines and other items with electronics, software, sensors and the Cloud, while embedded 5G technology would allow machines to exchange information and integrate computer-based systems in the physical world.
5G patent owners will likely become technology and market leaders
by enabling 5G connectivity in various markets
Top Technical contributions to 5G technology via company names
https://globebmg-cmsmedia-live.s3.am...e_4_4-full.jpg
FYI... the top entry on your JPG image link above, is Huawei.... known for stealing Intellectual Property for China...
https://www.apnews.com/0615a77380094e23b1c519ab4afe4869
Makes one wonder how much is already inter-twined
The AT&T with Huawei deal ---
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/09/b...martphone.html
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/18/tech/...-5g/index.html
I hope Detroit gets 5G soon. I'm counting the days when I can reply to these threads in 5G.
You'll be counting a long, long while before that 5G signal hits your phone
My phone says 5G when I'm in the downtown/midtown corridor. I dont know what it means as far as technical speeds, but it seems quite fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier
Mine says "No Service".
Mine says "HAM"?
Do you have ATT?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier
https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/21/...t-fake-network
Yes I do. Seems like a very American business practice. Thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by 48307
You are being duped , scammed and bamboozled
People are gullible, and being taken advantage of.
AT&T have decided to push out a 5GE logo onto phones
--- that actually won’t support real 5G ------
https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile...-they-know-it/
It requires the right chips and processors
https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile...agon-855-news/
Get some self respect OH3.
If people want to discuss it they will, but don’t pump your own thread for 6 months with a majority of the posts in it being yours. It’s a little pathetic to watch. For God’s sake there is a whole wide world of internet out there. Check it out, learn some basic internet decorum. Don’t just trash the etiquette because you can. Look out for yourself. Start a blog or something. Twitter, there are places where what you’re doing is perfectly acceptable. Here is just not one of them. Here threads have to die a natural death. Some last for the ages and some die on the day they were born. That’s how it works. But Pumping your own threads.... you just make yourself look bad.
Folks, 5G is rather irrelevant right now outside of some very narrow use cases.
Most "unlimited" plans only allow so many gigabytes of data, then they throttle you down. 4G is already fast enough to stream fully-HD video to any phone screen.
We don't need more speed, we need higher data caps for our cell phones.
Whether or not Detroit gets 5G right away won't affect much. We'll eventually get it. People will demand it [[even though it's currently irrelevant) and will be willing to pay for it, therefore it will come here.
ABetterDetroit
https://www.detroityes.com/mb/images...ser-online.png - it's clear from the responses - many don't understand it
If the moderator didn't like the tactics, the thread would be gone
Plan on paying $ 200 - $300 MORE for the top phones with 5G
So many will be out of pocket almost $1,000 , just for the 5G phone
Then comes the """additional""" fees, taxes, charges - per month.
Very, very few will be rocking 5G anytime soon in the D
I used to moderate online forums, including one you participated in back in the day. I can tell you that moderators will often put up with a lot of things that they don't like so that people can freely express themselves. I won't try to guess our humble host's feelings toward things, but I can tell you that in general forum etiquette would be to not bump your own posts unless you have some kind of significant contribution. Otherwise it appears like the goal is to push an agenda, not to have a discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
I enjoyed the discussion about 5G in Detroit. It was neat seeing the opinions, and I think we can let the topic naturally fall off the front page of the forum unless there is some kind of significant update.
I'm not a moderator here, and you certainly don't have to take anything I say as an order, just a suggestion from an old friend.
Tough to have a discussion - if people are ill informed, don't "get" it.
Doesn't mean the topic does not exist, the issue remains , an issue.
The red tape over the antennae deployment, acquisition, easement, payment, lease agreements, will continue to be a thorn in Detroit.
5G is soooooo absolutely NOT close to 4G it actually hurts in $
Patterson, Evans and other municipal leaders oppose the legislation because it would limit counties, cities and townships to charging telecom companies $20 annually for the use of each publicly owned utility pole. The bill would let counties charge cell phone providers $125 annually for installing the cellular antennas on their own poles
located in the public right-of-way.
The bill would prohibit municipalities from setting their own annual lease rates and permit and zoning fees as is currently allowed for leasing public space for cell towers.
Detroit needs operating revenue - and it won't happen from this technology -
Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
I can't wait to read posts in 5G.
Keep waiting, because you won't have it this year.
People seem to forget, Detroit doesn't have much INTERNET coverage
-- without a fiber optic backbone there is no 5G capability.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...t-mesh-network
https://observers.france24.com/en/20...esidents-build
As for the Hype over 5G - the lawsuits over False Claims have started
https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/8/18...ies-misleading
Since 5G is so very different from 4G, many are quite skeptical
https://mdsafetech.org/problems/5g/
“The lack of clear evidence to inform the development of exposure guidelines to 5G technology leaves open the possibility of unintended biological consequences.”
The FCC safety guidelines are 30 years old and presently do NOT take into account continuous exposures to low levels of microwave and millimeter wave exposure 24 hours a day, 7 days a week
Some call 5G the biggest tech experiment on humans in world history
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10999398
Manifestation of cortex activation under phone EMF exposure.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629874/
In the mmWave band, the electromagnetic coupling between antennas and the human body as well as the possible perturbations of antenna characteristics due to the body require more study.
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/c888...-5g-20-638.jpg
It will be interesting how it all rolls out in a place like Detroit
Attachment 38041
It looks as though 5G has arrived in Detroit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekleezy
Will Detroit be left behind in 5G ?
I guess that answers that question...
Oh no! Now O3H is going to see this and author a 5,000 word essay on how that is not really 5G and how 5G is dangerous, like wind turbines.
lol.......Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier
I think he's face down @ the Beer Fest in Warren.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier
Some people enjoy being duped, taken advantage of, bamboozled, scammed
It's about that simple. Stupid people are easily taken advantage of !!
The data rate is still LTE and will be for a long time.
I do my own homework.
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/hssu...opensignal.jpg
There are no 5G networks from US carriers ready for a phone
Intel has clarified that it bowed out of the mobile 5G marketplace
Flipping on the light to show the E is easy, actually providing the signal tougher
https://www.att.com/maps/wireless-co...ml#?type=voice
For all those REAL-ESTATE speculators with really really big balls,
find the space for those New Antennas that are needed to pull off 5G.
Go ahead, put that money where those loud mouths are. Get Rich !!!!
http://www.atttowers.com/index.html
http://www.atttowers.com/files/ATT_T...plication.xlsx
Build a Tower on your slice of heaven. Get leases from everyone.
http://www.americantower.com/us/property-owners/
Now can we shut up about this stupid idea that Detroit wasn't going to get this.
The new cities stretch from the east coast to the west, and from the north to south, and will be receiving Verizon’s millimeter wave 5G Ultra Wideband service before the year is done. The 20 cities are:
Atlanta, Boston, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Dallas, Des Moines, Denver, Detroit, Houston, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Little Rock, Memphis, Phoenix, Providence, San Diego, Salt Lake City, and Washington DC.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/25/1...0-5g-preorders
NO - we can't - because it involves NEW Antennas, New Tech.
There WILL be fights over where it goes, who ones that spot, what is the lease, for how long, and of course the courts, judges, and settlements.
Detroit City Council is oh so efficient and high tech minded.
They have to go in places they didn't go before ,
and Detroit doesn't exactly have fibre optic available everywhere.
5G needs the fibre optic hookups.
Private fibre optic exists, sure, in a few places - at what cost ?
Tearing up the underground to run Fibre Optic costs big money,
and it will be damn tough to recoup operating costs in Detroit.
For the techies:
The promised access speeds of 5G will overload existing Mobile Backhaul [[MBH) networks in place currently. An entire 1GbE MBH connection to a typical macrocell today, [[intended to serve all concurrent 4G users), "could be" sucked dry by 1 bandwidth-hungry 5G user.
Don't believe the hype. OR gobble the marketing fluff and feel full.
Nibble on this :
In fact, the only reason we don’t have fiber connected right to our smartphones is because we’d be less mobile.
https://youtu.be/AAbVca0aKiQ
Wayne County is negotiating a contract [[ to raise revenue for the region)
for a "commercially reasonable rate near $1,500 annually
for each small cell installation," according to Evans.
What would the point of marketing fluff be in this situation? What benefit would come from lying about Detroit getting 5G?Quote:
Originally Posted by O3H
5GE is not 5G. It's a marketing trick from AT&T.
https://www.howtogeek.com/399560/5g-...-need-to-know/
Verizon did announce a list of 20 cities they'll roll out actual 5G to, and Detroit is on the list: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/25/1...0-5g-preorders
Ok - if there is one , unique, singular spot in the entire entity called Detroit, then people will hoop, hollar, and scream that the D has 5G rolled out.
I wouldn't exactly plan the party anytime soon. It isn't easy to pull off.
It will cost $130 billion to roll out,who pays for that?
https://www.govtech.com/network/Depl...tudy-Says.html
The companies, changing the state laws, collected [[overcharged) over $400 billion from this hype, and worse, the original rate increases were built into most of the current rates.
https://ruraleconomytechnology.com/2...witch-scandal/
MANY studies the burden will land at the TaxPayers feet
----- not industry ---not the government banks ----
If people can't pay the taxes on homes in Detroit, does anyone really think the FibreOpticCable fairy will put 5G in those areas....ha ha ha
Local cities will get Hammered in red tape, grinding thru Thousands of approvals for sites [[yes thousands of small antennas), court battles over lease agreements, landlord bickering over real estate roof tops, the Unsightliness of BOXES on everything in sight.
5G travels short distances --so no antenna [[electric & fibre optic) - no signal
You'll be back on, a no bandwidth 4G system, in milliseconds, minimal data
https://spectrum.ieee.org/image/MzE0NDA2Nw.jpeg
Technology is legalized crack,people survived with three television channels and dropping a dime into a machine in order to call somebody.
It did the same thing as a cell phone,it made a phone call for 10c,but with a cell phone to have to pay for the privilege of making a phone call wheather you need to or not.
I had an original ATT unlimited data plan,$19.95 a month,mobile speeds were roughly that of a fax machine,I never updated the plan and a few years later all the employees had turned over.
I would get cell phone bills of $6000 per month for data charges and would have to fax them a copy of the original contract in order to bring it back down to $19.95.
Alan Turing invented the Turing machine in the 50s Which was one of the first computers and was the first one to create artificial intelligence.
He said back then,In the future a woman will be walking through the park talking to a machine and it will be talking back to her and there will come a day when humans will depend on machines to think for them.
How much technology does one really need and at what cost,how much of ones income is dedicated directly to technology?