The Kids That Are No More Over The Gun That Wasn't.

"A police supervisor reported that he tried to call off a pursuit before it ended in tragedy, but was unsuccessful, Detroit Police Chief James Craig said today.

The chase -- which, police said, involved a parole absconder, his passenger and three special operations officers riding in a police vehicle -- resulted in two small children being killed and three critically injured.

Craig said police are now evaluating whether the department's vehicular pursuit policy was followed.

Craig said the officers reported that, before the pursuit, they saw someone in the car with a gun."

He said no gun has been found.[/QUOTE]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...hood/29265749/

Aside from everything else, that's one of the most poorly written stories I've tried to read in a while. It's all over the place. No continuity. Almost as if a bunch of random paragraphs were pasted without thought.

I'm sure there are people that will disagree with me, but I heap mounds and mounds of blame on parole absconder, Lorenzo Harris, that drove his car into the kids in an attempt to be impervious to consequences for his previous actions.

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

This is a terrible tragedy, the cause of human scum, and my thoughts are with the families that aren't whole tonight. I can't imagine having to go through what they're going through.

Lorenzo Harris, f*** you.

48307, I don't disagree at all. All the blame goes to the perp.

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Originally Posted by 48307

I'm sure there are people that will disagree with me, but I heap mounds and mounds of blame on parole absconder, Lorenzo Harris, that drove his car into the kids in an attempt to be impervious to consequences for his previous actions.

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

This is a terrible tragedy, the cause of human scum, and my thoughts are with the families that aren't whole tonight. I can't imagine having to go through what they're going through.

Lorenzo Harris, f*** you.

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Back in the day you stopped for the cops or got rammed or worse. And no one blamed anyone but you. What a fucked up city this has become.

Agreed……...

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Originally Posted by cla1945

48307, I don't disagree at all. All the blame goes to the perp.

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Originally Posted by 48307

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

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Of course the guy who ran from the cops is ultimately at fault. But we don't rely on criminals to make decisions in the best interest of public safety...

Totally nuts. Another reason I have to go. no safety. anywhere.

This is one of the saddest stories I've heard in a while.

I was under the impression that national best practices on car chases has been, for a while now, to de-escalate if at all possible. Follow them with a helicopter and make the arrest later, etc, because high speed car chases are very dangerous.

It's worth noting that earlier the same day MSP had a very dramatic chase in Detroit. It ended with officers ramming the chased car off the road and apprehending everyone without injury. Check out the video, it's pretty impressive. I'm wondering if the DPD officers involved wanted some of that hero sauce.

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Originally Posted by 48307

I'm sure there are people that will disagree with me, but I heap mounds and mounds of blame on parole absconder, Lorenzo Harris, that drove his car into the kids in an attempt to be impervious to consequences for his previous actions.

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

This is a terrible tragedy, the cause of human scum, and my thoughts are with the families that aren't whole tonight. I can't imagine having to go through what they're going through.

Lorenzo Harris, f*** you.

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+5! A few threads back, people are pissing and moaning about the DPD not doing anything about crime, now their shifting the blame to the DPD. What's the message here? Hit the gas for a few blocks and you're scott-free? My heart goes out to the innocent children and their families. Look this asshole up, throw the key away, and sell the effin' car for scrap.

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Originally Posted by gvidas

This is one of the saddest stories I've heard in a while.

I was under the impression that national best practices on car chases has been, for a while now, to de-escalate if at all possible. Follow them with a helicopter and make the arrest later, etc, because high speed car chases are very dangerous.

It's worth noting that earlier the same day MSP had a very dramatic chase in Detroit. It ended with officers ramming the chased car off the road and apprehending everyone without injury. Check out the video, it's pretty impressive. I'm wondering if the DPD officers involved wanted some of that hero sauce.

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I thought policy was to call in Power Rangers and Pixies to magically whisk perps to jail.

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Originally Posted by Hypestyles

Totally nuts. Another reason I have to go. no safety. anywhere.

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Been there done that, came to that same conclusion years ago. Tough and spooky at first. Today... absolutely no regrets.

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Originally Posted by gvidas

This is one of the saddest stories I've heard in a while.

I was under the impression that national best practices on car chases has been, for a while now, to de-escalate if at all possible. Follow them with a helicopter and make the arrest later, etc, because high speed car chases are very dangerous.

It's worth noting that earlier the same day MSP had a very dramatic chase in Detroit. It ended with officers ramming the chased car off the road and apprehending everyone without injury. Check out the video, it's pretty impressive. I'm wondering if the DPD officers involved wanted some of that hero sauce.

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Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

That said, I do have a concern no one [[for whatever reason) has raised. I agree the police were ultimately in the right and doing their job. But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

Excellent video example of well done PIT maneuver. What was the nuts thinking when the had four state police behind them?

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Originally Posted by 313WX

But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

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For one thing, it wasn't a 'major chase' despite having major consequences. I'm not even sure it qualified as a chase at all. It has taken me longer than 75 seconds to type this post. Is 75 seconds even time to initiate, declare by radio, etc.?

Or is the 75 seconds in error? Were they 'chasing' for some time before calling it in?

The basic question is the reason. They 'thought' they had a gun. How many citizens are killed in this country every year for just that reason without a gun ever being found?

How can a passing car even see inside a Camaro? All you can see is the occupants' heads.

Any chance the gun could have been throw out of the car while traveling at such a high rate of speed and the cops not seeing it being thrown?

With Henderson running the ship, you just can't trust the Freep anymore for any time of quality journalism. They've lost all credibility when they endorsed Dick Snyder, twice, and some of the other "journalists" are nothing but fucking amateurs writing like unpaid interns.

I mean for fucking crying out loud!

Can we get some real journalists in this town?!?!

Do they even exist anymore?

The JOA really screwed this City, bad.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

+5! A few threads back, people are pissing and moaning about the DPD not doing anything about crime, now their shifting the blame to the DPD. What's the message here? Hit the gas for a few blocks and you're scott-free? My heart goes out to the innocent children and their families. Look this asshole up, throw the key away, and sell the effin' car for scrap.

...

I thought policy was to call in Power Rangers and Pixies to magically whisk perps to jail.

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I think it's important to hold law enforcement to a high standard. We give them a lot of power, and should expect them to be responsible with it. But more and better police doesn't directly result in less crime. We need a full court press, with better education, better jobs, etc -- better prospects in general.

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

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We got an ex-military helicopter thru a federal grant in 2012, but it sat idle for a few years because it wasn't clear who was going to pay to maintain it [[and who was going to fly it.) I've heard anecdotally that it is in service, altho intermittently.

Also, Michigan State Police has a helicopter based here, which is used in a collaborative fashion with DPD.

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Originally Posted by gvidas

I think it's important to hold law enforcement to a high standard. We give them a lot of power, and should expect them to be responsible with it. But more and better police doesn't directly result in less crime. We need a full court press, with better education, better jobs, etc -- better prospects in general.

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means.



We got an ex-military helicopter thru a federal grant in 2012, but it sat idle for a few years because it wasn't clear who was going to pay to maintain it [[and who was going to fly it.) I've heard anecdotally that it is in service, altho intermittently.

Also, Michigan State Police has a helicopter based here, which is used in a collaborative fashion with DPD.

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Unless you plan on keeping the chopper up in the air 24/7, someone has got to stay on top of the perp, to let the chopper know where he's @, so the chopper can then take over. Time will pass by the time they get the call, get the chopper up into the air, and to the spot it's needed.

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Originally Posted by gvidas

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means.

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You won't get them eventually. If you change the rules that if all you have to do is speed away to avoid prosecution, then that's what will happen again and again. Crime will increase as consequences decrease.

Letting the crooks go is bad for all of us.

Keep in mind that it was Lorenzo Harris that killed those kids, not the police. It was Lorenzo Harris' actions. Lorenzo Harris can rot in jail for the rest of his natural life.

Honky & 48307,

Obviously, my entirely unqualified armchair theorizing contains some holes. The broader point I'm trying to make is that there are alternatives to high-speed pursuits. From my limited research and understanding, national best practices on police pursuits have been changing in recent decades to account for the fact that the risks are very high, and that the cost of letting a suspect briefly evade police is relatively low -- in the long run, you can usually catch them.

Given the facts of the specific case we're discussing here -- very high speed, residential neighborhood, summer evening, etc -- it sounds like an instance where the officers should have probably backed off. I'm curious to hear how the internal investigation shakes out. It doesn't sound great for the officers involved:

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Officers activated their siren and attempted to pull the vehicle over, but the suspects took off and a chase ensued — reaching speeds of up to 95 per hour on residential streets, according to police. Three officers were in the squad car.


The chase lasted just 62 seconds and spanned 1.64 miles. Craig said a supervisor reported making several attempts to verbally stop the pursuit, but it’s not clear if the orders were heard over police radio traffic.


"Our supervisors are expected, by policy, to monitor and if necessary, engage, and stop the pursuit. Preliminarily, when I met with the supervisor, he made several attempts to go on the air – to stop the pursuit," said Craig. "I will tell you that, preliminary, we’ve gone down the communications to verify whether or not the supervisor’s request was heard. We did not pick that up."

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from here: http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/06/...is-a-fugitive/

At the end of the day tho, it's a case of moral calculus. Fundamentally, I think that effective policing relies on cops being figures of authority, and not just of power. Anything which they do to diminish the respect they hold [[abusing / injuring / killing people, unnecessarily shooting dogs, ignoring traffic laws for convenience not just for emergencies, etc) undermines their authority. These actions make it harder to respect them, even though they do not change the fact that I have to submit to their power. Ultimately, I think that effective policing requires that police be fairly unimpeachable in their behavior.

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Originally Posted by gvidas

Given the facts of the specific case we're discussing here -- very high speed, residential neighborhood, summer evening, etc -- it sounds like an instance where the officers should have probably backed off. I'm curious to hear how the internal investigation shakes out. It doesn't sound great for the officers involved:



from here: http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/06/...is-a-fugitive/

At the end of the day tho, it's a case of moral calculus. Fundamentally, I think that effective policing relies on cops being figures of authority, and not just of power. Anything which they do to diminish the respect they hold [[abusing / injuring / killing people, unnecessarily shooting dogs, ignoring traffic laws for convenience not just for emergencies, etc) undermines their authority. These actions make it harder to respect them, even though they do not change the fact that I have to submit to their power. Ultimately, I think that effective policing requires that police be fairly unimpeachable in their behavior.

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Certainly having some guidelines makes sense. Not every chase is going to be one that needs to be followed to conclusion, I think we certainly agree, at least to some degree.

As to police needing to be accountable, I absolutely agree. If a cop does something wrong, it needs to be fixed. Sometimes that means a slap on the wrist and training, and other times that means murder chargers.

Looking at the details of this case, even if the cops called off the chase soon after it started, it might not have even changed Lorenzo Harris' evasion in time to save the lives of the kids. He's not going to slow down to posted speeds the moment he sees the lights turn off.

A bigger way to avoid this is to find a way to prevent the manufacturing of criminals. Early intervention, education, battling teenage pregnancy, and breaking the poverty cycle. That's the answer to stopping this situation from happening again.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I thought policy was to call in Power Rangers and Pixies to magically whisk perps to jail.

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Thanks for making me laugh on a sad thread.

Assuming there isn't more to the story, I'm glad these cops engaged and were working to help Detroit and her citizens. Sad that it turned out as it did.

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Originally Posted by 48307

Looking at the details of this case, even if the cops called off the chase soon after it started, it might not have even changed Lorenzo Harris' evasion in time to save the lives of the kids. He's not going to slow down to posted speeds the moment he sees the lights turn off.

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That's my thinking exactly.

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Originally Posted by Hypestyles

Totally nuts. Another reason I have to go. no safety. anywhere.

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I was chastised on this forum many years ago under a different username for saying the same thing. I left Detroit for safety reasons but was preached at as to why I didn't stay and try to change things. Well, as you can see, many did stay and tried to change things, as I did when I was living there, but nothing changed and it's much worse.

The thug that ran over all those innocent children is the ONLY one to blame in this incident...not the DPD. Had the thug jumped out of the car and start shooting and the DPD hadn't chased them, the cops would have been blamed. So the DPD chases and gets the blame. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Time to take the handcuffs off the cops and let them do their job without criticizing every move they make.

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Originally Posted by gvidas

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means
.

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These thugs don't use their own cars while robbing, raping, or shooting people; they use stolen cars that are at their disposal whenever they decide to take it, so having a license number is totally redundant.