http://www.freep.com/article/2009071...t-Caprice-name
Hallelujah! GM would be stupid to not save this car.
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http://www.freep.com/article/2009071...t-Caprice-name
Hallelujah! GM would be stupid to not save this car.
I wonder if they'll keep the G6 as a Buick?
I still can't understand how GM could eliminate an iconic nameplate like Pontiac and keep GMC. When did GMC come into existence, 1990s? Pontiac has the history which brings out the passion in the car owner, especially those that have had Pontiacs in the past. Does GMC really do that for most car enthusiasts? Also, would it have been that more difficult to call a GMC truck/SUV a Chevolet or Buick?
How ironic that the G8 appears to be the hottest selling GM car in resent months and might be the car that saves GM, yet it loses its nameplate in December. If GM decides to keep it, will it keep the Pontiac nostrill grill or trade it in for a bow tie?
"How ironic that the G8 appears to be the hottest selling GM car in resent months and might be the car that saves GM, yet it loses its nameplate in December."
Ironic that it is an import.
it's really simple... GMC pays the rent, Pontiac doesn't. And your estimate about GMC's origins is off by about 80 years.... GMC Trucks was created in 1912.Quote:
Originally Posted by royce
Well, as a car lover and not a truck lover, the name GMC has never registered for me until the SUVs came out. Sorry for the GMC slight. I would still take a Pontiac nostril over a GMC.... Help me out here.
The biggest thing I didn't understand was that GMC is basically a bunch of rebadged Chevys, whereas the Pontiacs were a little closer to their own unique cars.
Isn't the G8 the next generation Grand Prix? If so, how ironic the sporty Grand Prix evolves into an old man's Caprice Classic. Can't they think of a better Chevy name to re-use like Monte Carlo, Chevelle, or Corvair?
Isn't it funny that the Caprice is thought of as an old man's car and Bob Lutz [[77 year old GM Exec) is the one who suggested that name for the G8? Think there's any connection, if he's truly behind the idea behind it some young people who work for GM need to make sure he considers other options.
Slight correction, brief history of GMC follows: GM bought Rapid nee Grabowsky Motor Vehicle in 1909. Grabowsky started in 1902, and had a factory at 1801 Mt Elliot, they later moved to Pontiac by 1904 and changed the name to Rapid Trucks. GM also purchased Reliance trucks at the same time. Reliance got its start in 1904 in an old safe factory at 63 E. Fort St.; Reliance was relocated to Owosso, Mi.and became the heavy truck maker.Quote:
Originally Posted by detmsp
The GMC marque did appear in 1912 and the Rapid and Reliance brands were changed. GMC acquired Yellow Cab in 1925 which made light trucks and buses.
So, GMC does have older roots in the city of Pontiac, than the Pontiac brand [[1926) and its predecessor Oakland, which started in 1907.
Wow. There's a lot of Detroiters who don't know that much about cars...;)
Why would they do that? The G6 is basically the Chevy Malibu. Buick has its own midsize sedan. It's called the LaCrosse. And the 2010 LaCrosse easily is a hell of a lot nicer than the Pontiac G6.Quote:
I wonder if they'll keep the G6 as a Buick?
Pontiac is an iconic brand, but GM doesn't need it. Chevy is the base-level brand, Buick-GMC is the premium brand, and Cadillac is the luxury brand. You can question why they chose to keep Buick over Pontiac, but the answer lies in China. Buick is the biggest American brand in China, and China is quickly becoming the world's largest auto market. GM needed to pare its brands down, and its choice was the iconic [[but North American-only) Pontiac or the rapidly expanding and more luxurious Buick. Also, keep in mind that GMC sells at a much larger volume than Pontiac, and the products it sells have a larger profit margin.Quote:
I still can't understand how GM could eliminate an iconic nameplate like Pontiac and keep GMC. When did GMC come into existence, 1990s?
The G8 isn't the hottest selling GM car. That title belongs to the aging Impala, followed by the Cobalt, Malibu, and G6. If GM decides to keep it of course they're going to change the front fascia. It will be recognizably "Chevy" like many of the other recent models.Quote:
How ironic that the G8 appears to be the hottest selling GM car in resent months and might be the car that saves GM, yet it loses its nameplate in December. If GM decides to keep it, will it keep the Pontiac nostrill grill or trade it in for a bow tie?
Pontiac really didn't have any unique vehicles. The G3 is a rebadged Daewoo Kalos/Chevy Aveo. The G5 is a rebadged Chevy Cobalt. The G6 is just a different variation of the same platform that underpins the Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura. The G8 is a rebadged Holden Commodore. The Vibe is a rebadged Toyota Matrix, which is basically the hatchback version of a Toyota Corolla. The Pontiac Torrent is a rebadged Chevy Equinox [[pre-2010 model). The Pontiac Solstice is the only car that can't be found in any of the surviving GM brands. It shares its platform with the Saturn Sky and the Opel GT and is set to end production soon.Quote:
The biggest thing I didn't understand was that GMC is basically a bunch of rebadged Chevys, whereas the Pontiacs were a little closer to their own unique cars.
No the G8 is a Holden Commodore imported from Australia. The Grand Prix was more or less replaced by the G6. The G8 is more or less the replacement for the Bonneville.Quote:
Isn't the G8 the next generation Grand Prix? If so, how ironic the sporty Grand Prix evolves into an old man's Caprice Classic. Can't they think of a better Chevy name to re-use like Monte Carlo, Chevelle, or Corvair?
Also, they chose the Caprice name because the Commodore/G8 is a RWD fullsize sedan much in the same way the old Caprice was a RWD fullsize sedan. The Monte Carlo was a FWD midsize coupe. A modern "Monte Carlo" would basically be the coupe version of the Malibu. I don't think it would be wise for GM to bring back the Monte Carlo nameplate, but instead create a coupe version of the Malibu. Part of GM's problem was that they had too many nameplates spread over too many brands. In fact, I think they should have just replaced the Impala with the G8 and focused more attention on selling the Malibu near the same volume of the Camry and the Accord.
As detmsp said, GMC came about in 1912. Pontiac didn't show up till 1926, as a companion marque to Oakland.Quote:
Originally Posted by royce
Truly, the G3 inspires passion in its owners.
Why call a GMC truck or SUV a Buick? That makes no sense. You lose the brand equity, and for what? It's already marketed and sold together. Keeping GMC allows Buick dealers to have a full lineup to offer. Dropping GMC while keeping Pontiac would given them little they didn't already have on the lots or in the pipeline. And the costs involved with giving Pontiac some decent, PROFITABLE, unique automobiles, was just far too great to justify. While it can be argued that GMC is more or less a rebadged Chevy, the fact is, in the truck market it doesn't really matter much, [[seriously, how different CAN they look? By necessity, they are all virtually the same visually from the A-pillar back, regardless of manufacturer) and the profits are far greater.
I seriously doubt it's the 'hottest sellng' car in GM's lineup. smaller, cheaper, FWD vehicles certainly sell in larger quantities. Nor will it save GM - the profit margin is too slim for that, being imported from Australia. [[Try building it in Oshawa, where the Camaro is built on the same platform, and they might get somewhere)
But the fact is, this car has gotten great reviews. It's a well designed, well built vehicle with great performance. You can hardly justify killing what is arguably your best car while keeping some shitbox like the Aveo, regardless of fuel economy. The G8 is exactly what Pontiac [[and GM) needed - but it was far too little too late to 'save' either one
With vehicles like the G3 coming out [[and after killing the Torrent no less!), it was clear the direction Pontiac was going in, and personally, I'm glad to see it go before it embarrassed itself further. The Pontiac you and I both love is long gone - the G8 was merely its last dying gasp.
My biggest problem with this is that it should NOT be named the Caprice. Impala would have been fine - the existing one needs to die anyways [[seriously, why does it even exist at this point?) Or even Chevelle [[even if it is a 4 door) would have been a decent choice. Caprice just has no ring to it... at least not in a way that does this car any justice.
Hudkina, wouldn't the G6 been the replacement for the Grand Am and the G8 the replacement for the Grand Prix?
Wow, Hudkina... I think we had nearly the same thoughts [[including that a hell of a lot of Detroiters don't know much about cars!)
I would argue the G6 was, in no uncertain terms, the replacement for the Grand Am, while the G8 covered both the Grand Prix and Bonneville... but more the GP.
Getting rid of Saab, Saturn, and Hummer was a no-brainer. After that it started getting a bit harder. The problem was that even though Buick was a huge seller in China its brand-equity in the U.S. had seriously faded over the last couple of decades. Pontiac, had seen a bit of a rebirth, but was really only known in North America. You also had to consider the fact that Pontiacs weren't all that different than Chevrolets, while the Buick brand was just beginning its ascent into a clearly more "upscale" market. While it was a hard choice to make from a nostalgic point of view, it was really simple when it came to profitability and product future.
Chevy will be positioned as the entry-level "catch-all" brand [[think $20,000+ for a midsize sedan.), Buick-GMC will be positioned as the more modest luxury or "premium" brand [[think $30,000+ for a midsize sedan.), while Cadillac will be positioned as the top-level luxury brand [[think $40,000+ for a midsize sedan.). Most of what you'd find in the Pontiac brand can now basically fall under the Chevy "SS" line. Instead of the Pontiac G6 GXP coupe, we'll hopefully see a sporty Chevy Malibu SS coupe.
BTW, if the Chevy Aveo is a "shitbox" then why are you so interested in the G3? The G3 is a rebadged Chevy Aveo, which is itself a rebadge Daewoo Kalos.;)
You're clearly very knowledgeable about the industry. I like that idea regarding replacing the Impala with the G8.Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina
After revisiting the Holden website I wonder why GM doesn't use more of the Aussie ideas?
The G6 was the direct replacement for the Grand Am. In fact, it was called the G6 because it was supposed to be the sixth generation of the Grand Am. That's where the "G" naming system arose. I just meant that it was more or less the replacement based on size. The G8 is more comparable in size to the Bonneville, the Grand Prix is more comparable in size to the G6 and the Grand Am and Sunfire are more comparable in size to the G5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottr
The 2009 G8 has a larger wheelbase and width than both the 2005 Grand Prix and the 2005 Bonneville, but has a smaller length. As far as interior volume, the G8 has about 3 more cu. ft. than the Bonneville and 10 more cu. ft. than the Grand Prix. The G6 has about the same interior volume as the Grand Prix
And while, these aren't a direct comparison, I always think of it like this:
The G3 more or less replaced the Sunfire.
The G5 more or less replaced the Grand Am.
The G6 more or less replaced the Grand Prix.
The G8 more or less replaced the Bonneville.
My last dumb question for tonight. IF the G8 is a Holden Commadore, Then what would a Holden Caprice be compared to?. I belive that the G.T.O. was a Holden Monaro which looks like it has been axed itself.
Woah, hold on there... I was ridiculing the G3/Aveo! [[my 'inspiring passion' comment was utter sarcasm!) After introducing such a fantastic car like the G8, the G3 went in the exact opposite direction, and made no sense whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina
There was a time that I felt that Pontiac could have made it, but they should have sold them in dealerships alongside Hummer [[yes, Hummer), and narrowed it down to just the best vehicles - cars like the G8 and the Solstice, and perhaps one or two other models. Both brands would be niche vehicles, with the intentions of being the best-performing vehicles in their class. Hummer, as fully-capable off-road vehicles, and Pontiac as exactly what they've marketed it as for years - driving excitement. Muscle cars, roadsters, etc - fun vehicles to drive, and not just your grocery getter or commuter car for either brand - just pure automotive excellence. Unfortunately, with government loans and a bankruptcy looming, it was far too late to do anything of the sort. And Hummer became nothing more than bad press all around - the epitome of environmental destruction for one side, and foreign oil dependence for the other.
I'm not sure who decided to throw Pontiac [[a performance nameplate) in with Buick [['grandma's car'), but I still, to this day, fail to see the reason why. There were better options.
But all that is in the past. Given the situation now, this is the best I think we can hope for - salvage the good [[the G8) and focus on making sure all three remaining channels have the best vehicles they've ever had, and giving all a full line to offer their customers.
The Holden Caprice [[also sold as the Holden Statesman) is based on an extended wheelbase version of the Commodore. It's also sold as the Buick Park Avenue in China and the Chevrolet Caprice in the Middle East, among others.Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog289
The Holden Commodore is also sold as the Chevrolet Lumina in the Middle East.
Yes, the GTO was a Monaro, and it was axed in 2005.
edit: The Monaro was axed in 2005, the GTO in 2006.
Thanks for the info Scottr. I had heard that the Lumina and Caprice were still selling in the Middle East and had seen a Park Ave in a paper. Was not sure what they were based on.
Back in the early days of GM the brands were arranged in a manner that you started out in a Chevy and worked your way up to a Cadillac.
By the 1920's GM's five car brands had been separated by pricing with Chevy < Oakland < Oldsmobile < Buick < Cadillac. By the late 1920's the number of car brands was increased to nine. Pontiac was created to slot between Chevy and Oakland, Viking was created to slot above Oldsmobile, Marquette was created to slot below Buick, and LaSalle was created to slot between Buick and Cadillac.
So basically, Chevy < Pontiac < Oakland < Oldsmobile < Viking < Marquette < Buick < LaSalle < Cadillac.
Viking and Marquette were axed within a few years. Pontiac sold in higher volumes than Oakland, and soon replaced it in the "ladder". LaSalle lived on until the early 1940's.
In the post-war era, the ladder became a bit more blurred, but it was still basically: Chevy < Pontiac < Oldsmobile < Buick < Cadillac. The brand lineup remained relatively unchanged until the mid 80's when the Asian brands started to seriously compete with the domestics. Saturn and Geo were introduced to directly compete with the likes of Toyota and Honda. For the first time, Chevy wasn't GM's entry-level brand.
The Geo brand was eventually phased out followed several years later by Oldsmobile. That basically left what remained of the "ladder" as Chevy < Saturn < Pontiac < Buick < Cadillac, though all the brands were similar in design and pricing.
Today Saturn is being sold off and Pontiac is being killed off. Buick is being repositioned as the entry-luxury brand that it had been in previous decades. Chevy remains the base-level brand and Cadillac remains the luxry brand.
hudkina,you have the ladders down pat.By the mid 60's GM divisions had already crossed into the same platforms.Car lineups had become A-body for Cutlass/Le Mans/Chevelle/Skylark.B and C for the big cars.The frames were the same,the suspensions components were the same.Only the divisions had seperate trim,sheetmetal and drivetrains.Even here there was a common trans for B-O-P cars,and a different rear end in Olds for a few years.The lines really crossed when the good selling Olds 88 got the 350 Chevy motor in around 1977.The Olds buyers wanted,demanded,that their beloved long lasting Olds Rocket 350/455 be put into their Oldsmobiles.If they wanted a Chevy they would have bought one!GM then put the disclaimer in their lit. that GM cars have drivetrains from different GM Divisions.When the next gen. Cars,X/J and A body came out inte early 80's,they had one or two corp. drivetrains.So Cavaleir becomes a Cimarron,a Cutlass becomes a Regal and so on.All crap,thanks Mr. Smith.Pontiacs got the short straw in all of of this.Trans-Am gets 350 Chevy motors,Daewoo junk becomes Le Mans and forever kills that name,GTO comes from overseas and has none of its heritage,like the Mustang or Challenger.G3,G5,G6,G8 gee whiz.What the hell are those,bingo callouts?When a company lets it "Excitement" division lose its way,we have to wonder what they were thinking.