Gratiot Ave PEL Study

MDOT is currently conducting a PEL[[Planning and Enviromental Linkages) from Randolph St to 8 Mile. Back in November, MDOT hosted a public hearing session on the eight alternatives being studied. Personally, I like alternative 4 which would include center median running BRT along Gratiot. Below, I have the illustrations of the alternatives being studied.

Alternative#1
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...575e2cc8_b.jpggratiot5 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Alternative#2
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9aaaeda4_b.jpggratiot6 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Alternative#3
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...bd1a55d1_b.jpggratiot7 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Alternative#4
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...bd1a55d1_b.jpggratiot8 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Alternative#5
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...55870359_b.jpggratiot1 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Alternative#6
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...34c2c4b2_b.jpggratiot2 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Alternative#7
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5a3ee991_b.jpggratiot3 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Alternative#8
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9aa6e53f_b.jpggratiot4 by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr[/IMG]

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/medi...21881BFC166FC9

Some of these plans are absurd. The 2 that bring Gratiot down to 1 lane is really dumb. All that would do is add further traffic onto I-94 heading east.

Also green space?? Why? Didn't city planners learn long ago about the futility of such things as adding planters or overhead canopies to the pedestrian areas along retail? :eek:

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Some of these plans are absurd. The 2 that bring Gratiot down to 1 lane is really dumb. All that would do is add further traffic onto I-94 heading east.

Also green space?? Why? Didn't city planners learn long ago about the futility of such things as adding planters or overhead canopies to the pedestrian areas along retail? :eek:

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I feel like you have to include as many options as possible just to give the illusion of choice. Odds are they already know which 1 or 2 are most realistic. I would love to see option 5.

Option 4 is the clear winner here, right?

Two car lanes each way. Protected bike lanes. Dedicated bus lanes/BRT in the middle. Landscaped sidewalks and safer crossings.

Everyone wins.

A lot of businesses on Gratiot rely on the street parking out front. While I would prefer option 4, I think option 5 balances the needs of all parties.

Alternatives 4 and 5 would be the only two I would ever consider. Gratiot down to one lane would be insane [[alts. #2 and #8). I prefer alternative 5 because it maintains on-street parking. The landscaped median is a good stopping point for those pedestrians that can't cross the entire width of Gratiot.

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Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier

A lot of businesses on Gratiot rely on the street parking out front. While I would prefer option 4, I think option 5 balances the needs of all parties.

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Per MDOT, there are, "nearly 10,000 on and off-street parking spaces along the route. Many on-street parking spaces are infrequently used." On-street parking along Gratiot north of 94 doesn't seem warranted.

FYI here's the survey referenced
https://gratiotstreetmix.com/-/789

Yeah I rarely ever see street parking being used on Gratiot. Lots of businesses have their own lots now, and worst case scenario is you just park on a side street and walk 30 seconds. Giving up transit lanes for a few dozen street parkers isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by gratiotfaced

Yeah I rarely ever see street parking being used on Gratiot. Lots of businesses have their own lots now, and worst case scenario is you just park on a side street and walk 30 seconds. Giving up transit lanes for a few dozen street parkers isn't worth it.

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Well I guess my mind was thinking for points south of I-94 where there are no surface lots. But I agree transit should be the priority. Given the amount of empty lots along the Gratiot corridor it shouldn't cost too much to create small lots for the pockets of businesses. They did something like that with the East Warren rebuild in East English Village.

There are really only three areas along Gratiot where street parking is used often: in front of and across the street from Ziedman's Pawn Shop at Chene, in front of Atlas Plumbing at Moran/Faygo plant, and between I-75 and Russell at Eastern Market/Gratiot Central Market. I still would like to have parking along Gratiot, but just put it on one side. Instead of there being a bike lane on each side of the street, like it is in Alternative 5, just put a two-way bike lane on one side. If there is new development along Gratiot heading out of downtown, you're going to want street parking, just like you have it in the Gratiot Central Market area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Some of these plans are absurd. The 2 that bring Gratiot down to 1 lane is really dumb. All that would do is add further traffic onto I-94 heading east.

Also green space?? Why? Didn't city planners learn long ago about the futility of such things as adding planters or overhead canopies to the pedestrian areas along retail? :eek:

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green space in Detroit is always a headache, we can’t even keep the grass cut along the boulevard

Parking is the lowest and worst use of any public ROW. These spaces are crated to move people from place to another, not to store your private property [[car).

Eliminate parking lanes for BRT, bike lanes, skateboard lanes, lanes where you have to crawl like a baby... Literally ANYHTING is better than on-street parking.

#4 is the obvious winner to me. 2 lanes each way, bikes, BRT [[rail would be better), no wasted space for turn lanes or parking. Where can we vote?!?

Kslice, I think BRT lanes are a waste of space. Moving vehicles [[cars, trucks, vans, SUVs) could be using those lanes instead of a small group of buses that arrive at a given stop every 15 to 30 minutes. Parking lanes make pedestrians and bikers feel safe. If parking is not available on the street, then you have to create parking lots between the buildings, destroying the street wall. That's how I see things.

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Originally Posted by royce

Kslice, I think BRT lanes are a waste of space. Moving vehicles [[cars, trucks, vans, SUVs) could be using those lanes instead of a small group of buses that arrive at a given stop every 15 to 30 minutes. Parking lanes make pedestrians and bikers feel safe. If parking is not available on the street, then you have to create parking lots between the buildings, destroying the street wall. That's how I see things.

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How do parking lanes make bikers feel safe? People open their doors and clobber them constantly.

^401don, better to be hit by a parked car door than the whole car at 40+ miles an hour.

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Originally Posted by royce

Kslice, I think BRT lanes are a waste of space. Moving vehicles [[cars, trucks, vans, SUVs) could be using those lanes instead of a small group of buses that arrive at a given stop every 15 to 30 minutes. Parking lanes make pedestrians and bikers feel safe. If parking is not available on the street, then you have to create parking lots between the buildings, destroying the street wall. That's how I see things.

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BRT arrives every 5-10 minutes and can carry insane volumes of people with less wear and tear on the roads. A bus that arrives every 30min is not BRT

Also cars cost 15-70k if you want something reliable. Not everyone can afford that. In fact I'd argue most of the people who regularly drive Gratiot would probably be real happy if they could go without a car, or at least significantly reduce the amount that they use their cars and not have to pay for all that mileage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royce

Kslice, I think BRT lanes are a waste of space. Moving vehicles [[cars, trucks, vans, SUVs) could be using those lanes instead of a small group of buses that arrive at a given stop every 15 to 30 minutes. Parking lanes make pedestrians and bikers feel safe. If parking is not available on the street, then you have to create parking lots between the buildings, destroying the street wall. That's how I see things.

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Parking CAN help protect bike lanes, such as on Michigan in Corktown, however this is more of a retrofit solution when an entire street reconstruction isn't in the cards. Ideally you would have curb protected or grade separated bike lanes like on Livernois.

The above comments are right about BRT, that sort of system can move people far more efficiently, removing vehicles from the street and allowing for lanes to be dedicated to other uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royce

Kslice, I think BRT lanes are a waste of space. Moving vehicles [[cars, trucks, vans, SUVs) could be using those lanes instead of a small group of buses that arrive at a given stop every 15 to 30 minutes. Parking lanes make pedestrians and bikers feel safe. If parking is not available on the street, then you have to create parking lots between the buildings, destroying the street wall. That's how I see things.

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When was the last time you were on Gratiot in Detroit? Because 99% of the time I drive it, the lanes are wide open for the relatively little traffic it sees. This is not a congested city of two million anymore. Four general purpose lanes is plenty.

Also, a big part of this plan calls for making Gratiot safer for pedestrians, as it's currently one of the deadliest roadways in the state. What you're proposing [[basically the status quo) doesn't address that problem.