President Bans Military-Style Equip. For Police (incl. Wayne, Oakland, Macomb etc)

Michigan cops fume over loss of U.S. military vehicles
From article:
Michigan law enforcement agencies are returning donated surplus military equipment to the federal government this month — including tracked armored vehicles that metro Detroit sheriff's offices have had for more than a decade— under orders of the White House, and they are not happy about it.

"It really upsets me. We have a great asset. We have not abused it, and in just a blanket order we can no longer have it,” Macomb County Sheriff Anthony Wickersham said of the tracked armored vehicle his office has had for its SWAT team since 2004.

"Look what’s happening around the country — mass shootings, barricaded gunman. An armored vehicle gives law enforcement the upper hand.”........

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/18/obama-military-equipment-police_n_7304504.html

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/12/02/federal-military-surplus-return/76605640/

It's about time.

Given that we're living in times much safer than the 60s through 80s [[where police departments handled mass shooting and barricaded gunman just fine without military-style equipment), there's no reason that meets to eye to justify their need for the equipment now.

Thanks President Obama!!!

Well, I've heard the items will be melted down and/ or otherwise disabled, lest they be used by a more benevolent, gentler arm of the government to quell the masses when needed.

Way to go Barack Hussien Obama! Bring over the "vetted" Syrians and disable the police. We're well on our way.

Ridiculous politically based action on Obama's part. Armored vehicles allowed law enforcement in California to apprehend the San Bernadino jihadists and the anti abortion lunatic in Colorado. If a similar event happens in Macomb County next week they now lack the same ability to respond without further endangering the lives of law enforcement officers.

Now Macomb County has to budget to purchase a new [[and most likely inferior) armored vehicle while the Feds use their old one for target practice? What a colossal waste of taxpayer money just to score some political points.

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Originally Posted by Johnnny5

If a similar event happens in Wayne County next week they now lack the same ability to respond without further endangering the lives of law enforcement officers.

Now Macomb County has to budget to purchase a new [[and most likely inferior) armored vehicle while the Feds use their old one for target practice?

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Or call in the National Guard. That's why a budget is also set aside for them.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Or call in the National Guard. That's why a budget is also set aside for them.

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So you don't want local law enforcement to have armored vehicles, but would be ok with an actual military response then? I'm sure they would be helpful when they showed up 2 days later.

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Originally Posted by Johnnny5

So you don't want local law enforcement to have armored vehicles, but would be ok with an actual military response then? I'm sure they would be helpful when they showed up 2 days later.

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In extreme rare cases such as the San Bernadino shooting, yes.

I wouldn't want a group of people who have a notorious history of defending bad cops behind their blue wall to recklessly use military equipment they're not to trained to use to bully innocent citizens in situations that don't require the use of said equipment.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

It's about time.

Given that we're living in times much safer than the 60s through 80s [[where police departments handled mass shooting and barricaded gunman just fine without military-style equipment), there's no reason that meets to eye to justify their need for the equipment now.

Thanks President Obama!!!

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Yes, thanks obama...for making our police personnel more likely to get killed performing their duties.

Have you considered the fact that the weapons used by terrorists and militants are much more powerful and deadly than weapons from the 60's through the 80's. The AK's can pierce armor. Obama is bowing to pressure from the black lives matter faction to get rid of these vehicles so not to be used again in a Ferguson like display of looting and killing.

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Originally Posted by cla1945

Have you considered the fact that the weapons used by terrorists and militants are much more powerful and deadly than weapons from the 60's through the 80's.

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Specifically what weapons do they have now that didn't exist in the 60's-80's? M16s were available back then. So were AKs. The ammunition used in most of these weapons hasn't changed much in 30 years.

In any case, overall violent crime has been in steady decline since a peak in the 80's, the vast majority of armed conflicts/shootouts with police are successfully handled with conventional pistols and rifles, so I'm not sure why police need MRAPs to conduct day to day operations.

As for "tanks" for special circumstances, most SWAT teams in major cities already have armored vehicles for this purpose, and those are very rarely used. I would say they are often deployed, but rarely actually used to knock in doors or ram through barricades.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Way to go Barack Hussien Obama! Bring over the "vetted" Syrians and disable the police. We're well on our way.

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Police Departments do not need tanks and grenade launchers and refugees are going through a two year process before entering the United States. You're typing this from a bunker or shelter of some kind aren't you?

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Originally Posted by southen

Police Departments do not need tanks and grenade launchers and refugees are going through a two year process before entering the United States. You're typing this from a bunker or shelter of some kind aren't you?

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Actually, I'm typing this this from my porch, where I'm enjoying the nice unusually warm December weather, and the fact that I don't have to worry about some "radicalized" Jihadist talking me out with an assault rifle, [[or pipe bomb). This "vetting" process you speak of, is this the same ironclad "vetting" process that granted 2 of the 911 highjackers Visas 2 weeks after they murdered 3000 Americans, and the same "vetting" process that granted Syed Rizwan Farook's loving bride access into this country? Now help me understand this part. The mass Syrian exodus started, what, 2-3 months ago, or so, no? So all these hundreds of thousand refugees showing up @ the borders, were already 2 year pre-"vetted"? I don't understand why your so wound up about my post, there's a very slim chance any of them will hire you to take wedding pictures.

Cute.

I'm not wound up. Scared alarmists like you happen to be more dangerous than any refugee in my eyes. For someone who isn't worried, you sure do post frequently like someone who is fearful or paranoid.

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Originally Posted by southen

Cute.

I'm not wound up. Scared alarmists like you happen to be more dangerous than any refugee in my eyes. For someone who isn't worried, you sure do post frequently like someone who is fearful or paranoid.

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For someone who posts like a wide-eyed greenie, you're out here a lot too. Talk about someone who's dangerous.....

Interesting. I'm sure that the next Republican President will reverse this. In the meanwhile, I'm sure that the GOP-heavy Congress will do everything possible to craft legislation that can go around this.
The militarization of local police departments has gone on for so many decades now it has become expected, culturally.

EO 13688 bans some military-style equipment. If you ask me, it doesn't look like much is going to change beyond not transferring tracked vehicles, .50 cal weapons and ammo, grenade launchers, and bayonets.

a. Prohibited Equipment List
The Prohibited Equipment List serves to identify equipment that should not be authorized forLEAs to acquire via transfer from Federal agencies or purchase using Federally‐provided funds.

RECOMMENDATION 1.1 — PROHIBITED EQUIPMENT LIST:
 Tracked Armored Vehicles: Vehicles that provide ballistic protection to theiroccupants and utilize a tracked system instead of wheels for forward motion.
 Weaponized Aircraft, Vessels, and Vehicles of Any Kind: These items will beprohibited from purchase or transfer with weapons installed.
 Firearms of .50‐Caliber or Higher
 Ammunition of .50‐Caliber or Higher
 Grenade Launchers: Firearm or firearm accessory designed to launch smallexplosive projectiles.
 Bayonets: Large knives designed to be attached to the muzzle of arifle/shotgun/long gun for the purposes of hand‐to‐hand combat.
 Camouflage Uniforms: Does not include woodland or desert patterns or solidcolor uniforms.

What can LEOs still acquire from the feds?

b. Controlled Equipment List
Equipment identified on the Controlled Equipment List has significant utility for State, local, orTribal law enforcement operations, and LEAs, other than those solely serving schools with gradesranging from kindergarten through grade 12,23 may continue to acquire it through Federalprograms. However, because of the lethal nature of the equipment and/or the potential negativeimpact on the community, LEAs are required to take additional steps to acquire this equipment,including the submission of a detailed justification outlining their need for procuring theequipment and certification that agency controls,such asthe training and equipment use policiesand procedures described below, are in place to prevent misuse of the equipment.
RECOMMENDATION 1.2 — CONTROLLED EQUIPMENT LIST:
 Manned Aircraft, Fixed Wing: Powered aircraft with a crew aboard, such asairplanes, that use a fixed wing for lift.
 Manned Aircraft, Rotary Wing: Powered aircraft with a crew aboard, such ashelicopters, that use a rotary wing for lift.
 Unmanned Aerial Vehicles: A remotely piloted, powered aircraft without acrew aboard.
 Armored Vehicles, Wheeled: Any wheeled vehicle either purpose‐built ormodified to provide ballistic protection to its occupants, such as a Mine‐Resistant Ambush Protected [[MRAP) vehicle or an Armored Personnel Carrier. These vehicles are sometimes used by law enforcement personnel involved indangerous operating conditions, including active shooter orsimilar high‐threatsituations. These vehicles often have weapon‐firing ports.
 Tactical Vehicles, Wheeled: A vehicle purpose‐built to operate on‐ and off‐road in support of military operations,such as a HMMWV [[“Humvee”), 2.5‐tontruck, 5‐ton truck, or a vehicle with a breaching or entry apparatus attached. These vehicles are sometimes used by law enforcement in rough terrain orinclement weather for search and rescue operations, as well as other lawenforcement functions.
 Command and Control Vehicles: Any wheeled vehicle either purpose‐built ormodified to facilitate the operational control and direction of public safetyunits responding to an incident. Command and Control vehicles provide avariety of capabilities to the incident Commander, including, but not limitedto, the provision for enhanced communications and other situationalawareness capabilities.
 Specialized Firearms and Ammunition Under .50‐Caliber [[excludes firearmsand ammunition for service‐issued weapons): Weapons and correspondingammunition for specialized operations or assignment. This excludes service‐issued handguns, rifles, or shotguns that are issued or approved by the agencyto be used during the course of regularly assigned duties.
 Explosives and Pyrotechnics: Includes “flash bangs” as well as explosivebreaching tools often used by special operations units.
 Breaching Apparatus [[e.g. battering ram or similar entry device): Toolsdesigned to provide law enforcement rapid entry into a building or through asecured doorway. These tools may be mechanical in nature [[a battering ram),ballistic [[slugs), or explosive.
 Riot Batons [[excluding service‐issued telescopic or fixed‐length straightbatons): Non‐expandable baton of greater length [[generally in excess of 24inches) than service‐issued types and are intended to protect its wielderduring melees by providing distance from assailants.
 Riot Helmets: Helmets designed to protect the wearer’s face and head frominjury during melees from projectiles including rocks, bricks, liquids, etc. Riothelmets include a visor which protects the face.
 Riot Shields: Shields intended to protect wielders from their head to theirknees in melees. Most are designed for the protection of the user fromprojectiles including rocks, bricks, and liquids. Some afford limited ballisticprotection as well. Riot shields may also be used as an offensive weapon topush opponents.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/def...port_final.pdf

An old high school acquaintance who listens to AM radio ranters pointed out years ago that the military equipment released to local police departments was part of the government's attempt to usurp local control and states rights, and federalize the municipalities.
Now, of course, the removal of this equipment is due to President Obama's lack of support for local law enforcement, according to this deep thinker.
Amazing.

I'm a moderate here. I am 100% in favor of Syrian immigration. But I'm also 100% in support of local police. Some point out the failures of local policing. Fair enough. That doesn't, however, mean that it not needed. ISIS and their ilk are fighting an asymmetrical war. And we don't yet seem to believe it.

Too bad about the people who will be lost when local police haven't the equipment or training or approval to do anything except phone in Uncle National Guard. Did anyone else notice that the trend right now is to faster response -- given that these are not likely to be hostage situations -- but more likely to be barricaded murder factories.

Very badly timed idea -- but very consistent with what his supporters believe. That the real problem is Islamophobia. A real problem -- but has nothing to do with being prepared to response to acts of war on our soil.

Really bad timing on this. I voted for Obama but its time for him to go. His handling of Syria which he basically gave weapons to Isis to attack Assad is really troubling. Then the other day we had to wait all day for them to finally admit this guy was Muslim and CNN was saying it was a "workplace" argument. Yeah, because have 6000 rounds of ammo, body armor, and pipe bombs are normal.

The mumbly peg teeth-to-the-ground of arms deals is not new. His predecessors historically have done it looking back on former arms negotiations public, and hidden.

Some of us were just hoping for a bit more 'change' from the eh, usual. Oh well....

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Originally Posted by Cliffy

His handling of Syria which he basically gave weapons to Isis to attack Assad is really troubling....

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A time frame discrepancy does seem to emerge....

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Now help me understand this part. The mass Syrian exodus started, what, 2-3 months ago, or so, no? So all these hundreds of thousand refugees showing up @ the borders, were already 2 year pre-"vetted"?

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Originally Posted by southen

Police Departments do not need tanks and grenade launchers and refugees are going through a two year process before entering the United States...

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The bank shooting in Cali years ago where the officers had to borrow weapons from gun shops to match the shooters weapons?

What if that situation was reversed where somebody got a hold of a specialized vehicle,how would you stop it with out the next step of calling in the military with a bigger stick.

Weapons under 50 caliber,a 50 caliber round is almost 6" long and can be in armor piercing and incendiary,you could level a house with those rounds,so they still have plenty of fire power if needed.

They still have access to armored and tactical vehicles in a controlled situation that proves that they are needed or justified,some little town in the mountains does not need a whole armored contingent to fight moonshiners but you cannot say no to them but yes to everybody else so it has to be across the board decision and based on do you really need this or do you have this because it is available.

In Israel there is a military armed soldier pretty much on every street corner,so it is pretty much a way of life there where here we read posts about the lasting impressions of the effects of the military rolling down the streets of U.S. cities in the past during riots.

LEO still has excess to protective measures in their arsenal,the only thing that changes is it will only apply when it is necessary.

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Originally Posted by Richard

The bank shooting in Cali years ago where the officers had to borrow weapons from gun shops to match the shooters weapons?

What if that situation was reversed where somebody got a hold of a specialized vehicle,how would you stop it with out the next step of calling in the military with a bigger stick.

Weapons under 50 caliber,a 50 caliber round is almost 6" long and can be in armor piercing and incendiary,you could level a house with those rounds,so they still have plenty of fire power if needed.

They still have access to armored and tactical vehicles in a controlled situation that proves that they are needed or justified,some little town in the mountains does not need a whole armored contingent to fight moonshiners but you cannot say no to them but yes to everybody else so it has to be across the board decision and based on do you really need this or do you have this because it is available.

In Israel there is a military armed soldier pretty much on every street corner,so it is pretty much a way of life there where here we read posts about the lasting impressions of the effects of the military rolling down the streets of U.S. cities in the past during riots.

LEO still has excess to protective measures in their arsenal,the only thing that changes is it will only apply when it is necessary.

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I'm having a bit of trouble determining if you're opposed or supportive of Obama's action, but I'll comment on a couple of your points.

First of all the late 90's bank robbery in California was the pivotal event that changed the types of weapons that local police have easy access to. Prior to that robbery most regular officers normally just carried a pistol and a shotgun. Some did have rifles, but they were typically not high capacity and were not very common. So law enforcement's inability to respond to those heavily armed bank robbers in the 1990's is part of the reason they had the ability to respond last week.

As for the "reversed" situation involving a criminal with an armored vehicle that happened in California right around the same time. The police in that case had zero ability to respond and basically just had to wait for the perp to get stuck and were lucky that he had forgotten to secure the hatch [[On the Tank!). I also remember there being a disgruntled property owner that went on a rampage with a highly modified armored bulldozer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vESIVemfG8

The .50 caliber rifles may be capable of leveling a house, but I highly doubt local law enforcement have full auto versions backed by the 1000's of rounds required to do so. Most likely they are bolt action or semi auto rifles in that caliber which could be very useful in hostage situations or for disabling vehicles. Once again, these are readily available for purchase by law enforcement [[As well as civilians) so those aren't going away. They're just going to be paid for again by us the overburdened taxpayer.


The illogical part of these actions by the White House is that they don't stop local law enforcement from acquiring or using .50 BMG rifles or tracked armored vehicles. All this action does is harm these departments by making them buy their own while the perfectly good ones they had get melted down and sold as scrap to China. So instead of that 400K dollars Macomb County could have used to pay for training, salaries and other expense it's now going to repurchase something that was wasted and thrown in the trash.

I support local police having serious weapons for serious times, efforts to assist Syrian refugees where we can with the least risk/impact on our country, and the removal of Obama from office.

1953

I think President Obama really believes that police are a problem -- and he's trying to solve it. I disagree.