Merge Both Sections of Grand Circus Park?

I wasn't there, but someone told me at the Downtown Detroit Partnership meeting yesterday they discussed the possibility of joining the two sections of Grand Circus Park to make one larger park that is much more usable. They'd still have M1 go through, but Woodward would be shut off and you'd have to drive around the park.

Apparently this is just a brainstorm with no real plan in place, but it definitely intrigues me. I don't think it's too much of a hassle to drive around the park and if this allows the park to become much more pedestrian and event friendly I'd be down.

It would be interesting to see Woodward closed off from GCP all the way to MLK, with the exception of M-1. Connect Witherall with John R on the east and either extend Park all the way to MLK or connect it up with Cass.

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Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

It would be interesting to see Woodward closed off from GCP all the way to MLK, with the exception of M-1. Connect Witherall with John R on the east and either extend Park all the way to MLK or connect it up with Cass.

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I'm not sure what the point would be. Pedestrian malls have failed almost everywhere they've been implemented.

I would be in favor of reducing the number of travel lanes in Woodward and widening the sidewalk instead, but with M-1 Rail going down the outside lane, that's probably not possible at this point.

That said, I kind of like the idea of closing Woodward through Grand Circus and routing all the traffic around the park. That's exactly how Campus Martius is set up, and that doesn't seem to cause any problems. M-1 Rail would be an issue here as well, though, because the tracks would run right through the new park space, which reduces the amount of usable space that you would actually get. And there wouldn't be a station in the park - the Grand Circus station is going south of Park/Witherell.

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Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

Pedestrian malls have failed almost everywhere they've been implemented.

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Oh?? And where would that be??

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Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

Oh?? And where would that be??

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Woodward avenue from Grand Circus park to Kennedy Square[[Campus Martius). It was a bus only pedestrian mall from 1977 until the mid 90s. It was considered to be a contributing factor in Hudson's closing.

http://issuu.com/dscollett/docs/lower_woodward_avenue

Also, Washington Blvd. as well as Kalamazoo and a host of other places.

It's worth looking into although I don't think that would work with the geometry of the park and roads, or at least it would make things a lot more complicated than it needs to be to clear some extra space in a park that's already pretty big, and when downtown already has a good number of parks.

Would have been a good idea but I agree that it seems pointless with M-1 going through it. Nonetheless, I would like to see some design changes to open up the park a little and make it more pedestrian friendly. Being an island park, having a mound up the middle, the large number of trees, etc. all contribute to making it uninviting. It doesn't exactly lend itself to sitting on a bench, having an ice cream and watching the world go by.

One of Dan Gilbert's plan was to use Woodward between Grand Circus Park as a venue location similar to what occurs at Campus Martius Park.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/a6a708aa...8zjo1_1280.jpg

However, the end goal would be to narrow Woodward to 4 lanes while probably making the middle turn lane a grass median. Keep in mind these are very loose plans and not necessary concrete to how they are envisioned.

https://36.media.tumblr.com/4fb41f50...8zjo2_1280.jpg

https://40.media.tumblr.com/9fdfe948...8zjo1_1280.jpg

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...ilberts_1.html

closing woodward would be a terrible idea through there. i do however like the plan shown above that removes several lanes and reworks grand circus to make it more pedestrian friendly.

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Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

Oh?? And where would that be??

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Chicago State Street mall failed and was restored to vehicle traffic.

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Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

Oh?? And where would that be??

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And downtown Grand Rapids as well.

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Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

Oh?? And where would that be??

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In the light of several failures of the pedestrian mall concept, this issue has been studied a number of times. All have come to the conclusion that pedestrian malls do not work in U.S. cities.

One recent study, done in reference to the failing mall in Fresno CA, found that pedestrian malls have an 89% rate of failure in the U.S, and most were removed or reconfigured. Almost all of the small number of successes came in smaller cities. Most of the cities that moved back from pedestrian malls to “complete” main streets experienced turnarounds in their downtowns, with more investment, higher occupancy rates, and increased pedestrian traffic.

Goodness knows that the idea failed spectacularly here in Detroit, and pretty much put the final nails in the coffin of downtown retail.

These kind of malls are best done on narrow streets. There is really no good justification for closing off part of this highway to vehicular traffic.

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Originally Posted by Dexlin

These kind of malls are best done on narrow streets. There is really no good justification for closing off part of this highway to vehicular traffic.

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Agree. I think a good model is what Grand Rapids has done with Monroe Center - just one lane of traffic, two lanes of parking, and ultra-wide sidewalks. The street is primarily for pedestrians, but not solely for pedestrians.

Woodward isn't the right street for that kind of conversion, though. I'd look at some of our one-way streets that don't really go anywhere - Park, Witherell, parts of Clifford, parts of John R, parts of Grand River, etc.

Well, Woodward narrows considerably inside of the 'necklace,' so perhaps the streetscape of Merchant's Row needs to be extended through GCP. I'd worry about traffic flow a little bit if you narrow it anywhere beyond that. Closing it would be a pointless disaster. But I'm all-for a narrower Woodward and larger usable sidewalk and park land at GCP.

While I would not really consider this a pedestrian mall in the traditional sense, the question of pedestrian malls is intriguing.

Pedestrian malls were urban renewal projects primarily in the 1960's, I've heard Kalamazoo mentioned as the first. Unlike many of the urban renewal projects of that era, I'm not sure they were entirely ill-conceived. So many of those works were of the monolithic variety that eschewed pedestrians, the street grid and the overall urban environment.

Rather, looking back, it's possible that pedestrian malls simply came about at the wrong time. There may have just been too much headwind with white flight, crime, the rapid proliferation of the suburb in general, shopping malls and everything else that led people out of downtown.

Perhaps in today's new urbanism environment, with people clamoring to be in walkable settings and downtown areas across the country going through a massive rebirth, there's a place for the pedestrian mall.

I'm certainly not advocating it for Detroit, which has a long way to go to even have the foot traffic to consider something like this, but I wouldn't count the concept completely out on a national level.

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Originally Posted by WALD0123

While I would not really consider this a pedestrian mall in the traditional sense, the question of pedestrian malls is intriguing.

Pedestrian malls were urban renewal projects primarily in the 1960's, I've heard Kalamazoo mentioned as the first. Unlike many of the urban renewal projects of that era, I'm not sure they were entirely ill-conceived. So many of those works were of the monolithic variety that eschewed pedestrians, the street grid and the overall urban environment.

Rather, looking back, it's possible that pedestrian malls simply came about at the wrong time. There may have just been too much headwind with white flight, crime, the rapid proliferation of the suburb in general, shopping malls and everything else that led people out of downtown.

Perhaps in today's new urbanism environment, with people clamoring to be in walkable settings and downtown areas across the country going through a massive rebirth, there's a place for the pedestrian mall.

I'm certainly not advocating it for Detroit, which has a long way to go to even have the foot traffic to consider something like this, but I wouldn't count the concept completely out on a national level.

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Here's the problem with them - without any cars, a street has the possibility of becoming a scary, creepy dead zone very easily. Even if all the stores are filled, something as simple as bad weather renders the pedestrian mall eerily empty. You have to have tons of foot traffic all the time to make them work, which is why the one on Broadway works in New York, but 89% of them fail. On the flip side, imagine walking down Woodward at its absolute nadir [[say, right after Hudson's was demolished). Even if no one's walking around and nothing's open, if there are cars going up and down the street, it makes you feel safer.

Having a street that is primarily for pedstrians [[wide sidewalks, landscaping, no more than two narrow traffic lanes, lots on on-street parking, pedestrian-scaled lighting) is highly desirable. But removing the cars completely doesn't work in most environments.

I like the idea of removing lanes and reducing traffic down to 4 with the M1 line running through. Looking at Woodward or Jefferson and imagining having to cross 6,8,10 lanes of traffic, to many pedistrians, is a bit daunting. It's a nice concept that could work, but there need to be reasons to go to GCP. Campius Martius has a lot going on and attracts people. What's in GCP really? Nothing. They need some sort of draw there, whether it be food trucks, an outdoor cafe, some bocce courts, etc. If Gilbert's plan in some way comes to fruition, I'd be pretty happy with that. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, by then the Broderick's restaurant will open...

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Originally Posted by mikeg19

what's in GCP really? Nothing. They need some sort of draw there, whether it be food trucks, an outdoor cafe, some bocce courts, etc. If Gilbert's plan in some way comes to fruition, I'd be pretty happy with that. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, by then the Broderick's restaurant will open...

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The Detroit Downtown Partnership began programming in Grand Circus last year. There were bocci ball courts, food trucks, etc. It will continue this year.

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Originally Posted by Eric_c

The Detroit Downtown Partnership began programming in Grand Circus last year. There were bocci ball courts, food trucks, etc. It will continue this year.

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Plus with the large and growing number of apartments fronting the park, hopefully those people will start using it to hang out on nice days, giving it a natural vibrancy that will attract others.

The only truly successful urban mall I've ever visited is the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica. The area is the terminus if two major surface streets, Santa Monica and Wilshire Blvds. Close by, the Santa Monica Fry. connects with the Pacific Coast Hwy. The ocean, the weather[[!) and the presence of very upscale nearby neighborhoods all uniquely combine to make the Promenade a viable proposition. Here's a link with more information: www.downtownsm.com. Judge for yourself the potential of such an idea in Detroit.Attachment 26047Attachment 26048