Saturday Night Shooting near Royal Oak YMCA

Well, things got a little crazy in Royal Oak Saturday night. The YMCA was rented out for a birthday party, and two of the guests got into a fight. They were escorted outside, and 911 was called. However, the altercation continued, and people spilled out onto the street, quarreling loudly, until all the shouting and commotion was ended with a gun shot. Approximately 50 people scattered in all directions. The police arrived within 90 seconds of the gunshot and created a perimeter - as wave upon wave of cruisers continued to swarm through the area. The K9 unit arrived and several people were found hiding behind nearby houses and were interviewed by the police. Apparently the shooter was quickly found and arrested; and fortunately, there were no reported injuries.

I live across from the YMCA and just thought I'd share this as a matter of public interest, since the story is not showing up in the media. And not that I didn't have this concern before - but I really feel for the folks that deal with this type of disturbance on a regular basis - and who do not get the police response they deserve...

I was walking to my friends house on that night. I have to pass 11 Mile Rd. and Maxwell St. to do that. That was close. Looks like violent crime is up in Royal Oak. Is the neighborhoods in Royal Oak is getting crime laden? It's seems to me with all the job losses and economic depression violent crime is last resort.

I don't know what this would have to do with economic depression. Sounds like a get-together gone bad, a fairly common story.

African American friends and families love to throw their get-together-parties mostly in the suburbs from parks to rental halls. This is because of safety concerns. I seen it happen. If this incident is a 'black thing!' in the suburban areas the police will respond very quickly.

If its a Caucasian thing the police response will be quick, but settled fast.

Danny, you raise an interesting point relating economic depression and violent crime. That notion suggests that people will undertake desperate means to support themselves, such as robbery and burglary, or even murder, if it means survival. However, violent crime also seems to be taking place as a social custom - where if someone is disrespected, or won't give up their tennis shoes, for example - a life is lost because of it. Saturday night's event was not about someone trying to attain food, shelter, or clothing as a result of economic depression; it was about a society that tolerates, and even expects, that type of violent behavior as part of the social structure. Perhaps the two ideas are intertwined - but one could point to very poor people - such as folks in the Appalachians - who are very impoverished, but not necessarily violent. It sounds hokey, but people have to believe that riches are in the heart, and in the ties that bind the community. So I would say the difference in a community where economic depression leads to widespread crime is a result of failed leadership.

Well stated, thecarl.

It's purely anecdotal, but the "quality" of downtown R.O. patronage seems to have declined markedly in recent years, especially at night.

Lots of meatheads getting into stupid fights, plenty of screaming, tires squealing, etc. It isn't a super diverse or welcoming environment, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

It's purely anecdotal, but the "quality" of downtown R.O. patronage seems to have declined markedly in recent years, especially at night.

Lots of meatheads getting into stupid fights, plenty of screaming, tires squealing, etc. It isn't a super diverse or welcoming environment, IMO.

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I don't know about that. I bartended for a few years in downtown R.O. about 15 years ago, and the meathead-ish, screaming, squealing tires [[and loud motorcycles), etc., was there then. In fact, I remember it being worse, but my perspective is obviously different now. I just thought it was the result of having a bunch of bars and restaurants near each other in one of the few walkable areas of Metro Detroit.

The "economic situation" stuff as a direct or indirect component of these incidents is a bit old, in my opinion.

Royal Joke has always sustained a level of violent crime. People don't realize that before RJ became a yuppie/hipster stronghold, it was home to several lower- and mid income families. Not that it directly correlates, but the kids used to beef every so often [[upper and lower incomes I mean), and it could get quite violent. Drug raids were not uncommon in neighborhoods closer to downtown, and there was always the occasional murder or suicide, nothing new. Not to mention the police state that RJ became after it was decided that the presence of young adults on the streets and downtown without a parent was intolerable. RJ also sits in-between a large transportation corridor, Woodward/ 6-96/ I-75, so anyone and everyone travels through it or by it. Plus, it's home to a Greyhound station, an Amtrak line, a SMART line, and several cab co.s.

One shooting at a party hardly means that Detroit is coming to a neighborhood near you.

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

People don't realize that before RJ became a yuppie/hipster stronghold, it was home to several lower- and mid income families.

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I would say that, even today, RO is mostly middle income or working class. Outside of the downtown area, and Vinsetta Boulevard area, most of RO consists of tiny postwar bungalows.

IMO, the downtown yuppie crowd is more the exception than the rule. Most of RO is fairly salt-of-the-earth [[ok, not like Ecorse or something, but still pretty "common man", especially heading east towards Madison Heights).

Nice work by the RO PD. Last week in short order they nailed those two maggots who killed the elderly woman and they seem to be on their game again in catching this shooter.

http://detnews.com/article/20111128/...Royal-Oak-YMCA

It was on Fox news last night.

I remember the shooting in Ferndale a couple years back at a hall and the shooters were from Detroit just like this case. I know a couple cities have stopped renting their facilities to non-residents because of this crap.

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

Royal Joke has always sustained a level of violent crime. People don't realize that before RJ became a yuppie/hipster stronghold, it was home to several lower- and mid income families. Not that it directly correlates, but the kids used to beef every so often [[upper and lower incomes I mean), and it could get quite violent. Drug raids were not uncommon in neighborhoods closer to downtown, and there was always the occasional murder or suicide, nothing new. Not to mention the police state that RJ became after it was decided that the presence of young adults on the streets and downtown without a parent was intolerable. RJ also sits in-between a large transportation corridor, Woodward/ 6-96/ I-75, so anyone and everyone travels through it or by it. Plus, it's home to a Greyhound station, an Amtrak line, a SMART line, and several cab co.s.

One shooting at a party hardly means that Detroit is coming to a neighborhood near you.

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I would like to know why the persistent use of "Royal Joke". That term came out of a different era when Royal Oak had an empty downtown. Since the 90s, things have drastically improved. Don't be such an arrogant city dweller. And Greyhound doesn't have a stop of the ROTC anymore, but if you had checked your facts, as with the rest of the post, you would know that.

Ok, if you have to have security for a family party, maybe you shouldn't have the party. COME ON PEOPLE!! I'm really beginning to think some residents in our dear city are part of a Darwin type of experiment.

I can not say enough bad things about people like this.

And yes, kudos to the Royal Oak Police for their work over the past couple of weeks. Some of you are used to this crime thing but I for one am not and refuse to become used to it.

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

One shooting at a party hardly means that Detroit is coming to a neighborhood near you.

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Agreed. And while I understand thecarl's sentiments, and concur, we need far more than admonishments and "ought to dos" in order to encourage more positive social behavior. I'm not sure what that is, but telling people that they ought to shake it off when disrespected hasn't worked well -- at all.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I would like to know why the persistent use of "Royal Joke". That term came out of a different era when Royal Oak had an empty downtown. Since the 90s, things have drastically improved. Don't be such an arrogant city dweller. And Greyhound doesn't have a stop of the ROTC anymore, but if you had checked your facts, as with the rest of the post, you would know that.

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Ummm....let's start with the fact that I grew up in Royal JOKE, graduated from RJ schools, worked in RJ, my family still owns and rents property in RJ, my family having experienced the lowest treatment afforded to a RJ resident possible [[hence the leaving part), and I still have friends who live there. I think that means I might have a slight inkling as to what has gone on there.

No more Greyhound huh? Yeah not knowing THAT really puts me on the dumbass list. I'm surprised you even know about that considering the only experience you've had with a bus system was PACE in Chicago...

Second, grow a sense of humor pal. Last time I checked using a petname to describe a well-known city in the area I've lived in my whole life isn't exactly something I'd call assh*le like.

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Originally Posted by SteveJ

I know a couple cities have stopped renting their facilities to non-residents because of this crap.

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I'm not mad at em'. Not all former Detroiters can handle the pressure of conforming to suburban living. Hell, some can't handle the basics like mowing the lawn or taking the party inside after midnight. I'm the first one to tell my ghetto-ish friends that moving to Shelby or Troy may not work out for them. But at the same time, if they're hell bent on the move, I try to give them pointers about what changes to expect and [[politely) the behaviors they may have to modify.

But most are hard working everyday folks that have nothing to do with shootings that are being perpetrated by dangerous people who don't even live in that city.

I will also add this. The last two renters my father put out of the rental were not from Detroit, but were from Belleview and Hazel Park.

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

Not all former Detroiters can handle the pressure of conforming to suburban living. Hell, some can't handle the basics like mowing the lawn or taking the party inside after midnight. I'm the first one to tell my ghetto-ish friends that moving to Shelby or Troy may not work out for them. But at the same time, if they're hell bent on the move, I try to give them pointers about what changes to expect and [[politely) the behaviors they may have to modify.

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I never understood why, if you go outside at 1am and see that every other house is dark and quiet, it doesn't dawn on that individual [[or group of individuals) that making a ruckus is not going to fly. Or "Hey, I've got a lawn. Do I need to do anything about it?" Everything you wrote falls under the category of "common sense" which you either have or don't have. It can't be taught.

It is common sense. Funny how it is described as "conforming to suburban living".

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Originally Posted by bartock

It is common sense. Funny how it is described as "conforming to suburban living".

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I suppose it *is* common sense to those of us who grew up viewing it as common.

Somebody back in 1956 dropped the ball. Instead of moving away when the new neighbors from Alabama parked on the lawn or BBQd on the front porch, they should have politely corrected them, right? Or, since it's not their business, they could have just called the cops. Over. And over. And over.

Growing up, one of my father's friends said that Detroit was basically a town full of farmers. A bulk of the population up here stems from the rural south and the culture has had a real hard time assimilating with that of northern urbanites. Add race to it and it turns into a tragic comedy.

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

Ummm....let's start with the fact that I grew up in Royal JOKE, graduated from RJ schools, worked in RJ, my family still owns and rents property in RJ, my family having experienced the lowest treatment afforded to a RJ resident possible [[hence the leaving part), and I still have friends who live there. I think that means I might have a slight inkling as to what has gone on there.

No more Greyhound huh? Yeah not knowing THAT really puts me on the dumbass list. I'm surprised you even know about that considering the only experience you've had with a bus system was PACE in Chicago...

Second, grow a sense of humor pal. Last time I checked using a petname to describe a well-known city in the area I've lived in my whole life isn't exactly something I'd call assh*le like.

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I still live in Royal Oak, grew up here in the same house my dad grew up in. My family has been here since 1952. Ummmm, and no my only "experience" with a bus system was not PACE. I've never even taken PACE, never said that I did. 1) I have taken SMART/DDOT many times, sorry but I do prefer the independence of a car 2) I lived in Chicago for awhile [[hated it) and took the CTA 99% of my time living there. I just think using "Royal Joke" would be like someone around you calling Detroit, Detoilet all the time. And of course, I should back off because Hazel Park and Taylor are always Hazeltucky and Taylortucky.

Ha! And Garbage City and Wasteland and Cowtown on the Westside! Sterling Whites and Worn on the East!

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Originally Posted by Eric_c

I suppose it *is* common sense to those of us who grew up viewing it as common.

Somebody back in 1956 dropped the ball. Instead of moving away when the new neighbors from Alabama parked on the lawn or BBQd on the front porch, they should have politely corrected them, right? Or, since it's not their business, they could have just called the cops. Over. And over. And over.

Growing up, one of my father's friends said that Detroit was basically a town full of farmers. A bulk of the population up here stems from the rural south and the culture has had a real hard time assimilating with that of northern urbanites. Add race to it and it turns into a tragic comedy.

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I don't get *why* it's common sense. I mean, not making noise outside late at night if nobody else is, okay, that's common courtesy, I guess, but the other stuff? Who the hell cares if somebody down the street wants to grill on their porch? They paid for the house, didn't they? Or do property rights only apply to People Exactly Like Us?

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

my family still owns and rents property in RJ, my family having experienced the lowest treatment afforded to a RJ resident possible [[hence the leaving part).

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What do you mean by this? You make it sound like RO has suddenly become what happened Highland Park...

Wait, ..... Royal Oak has 'wave upon wave of cruisers' ?

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Originally Posted by antongast

I don't get *why* it's common sense. I mean, not making noise outside late at night if nobody else is, okay, that's common courtesy, I guess, but the other stuff? Who the hell cares if somebody down the street wants to grill on their porch? They paid for the house, didn't they? Or do property rights only apply to People Exactly Like Us?

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It is not common sense, nor civilized to grille on one's front porch. You do that in the back yard whether you paid for the house or not or what you look like or where you came from.

Hell, I live out in the country on nearly 10 acres with no neighbors in sight and I don't grill on the front porch.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

It is not common sense, nor civilized to grille on one's front porch. You do that in the back yard whether you paid for the house or not or what you look like or where you came from.

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Okay, that's your personal opinion, but why is everyone else required to share it? Doesn't this fall under Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?

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Originally Posted by antongast

I don't get *why* it's common sense. I mean, not making noise outside late at night if nobody else is, okay, that's common courtesy, I guess, but the other stuff? Who the hell cares if somebody down the street wants to grill on their porch? They paid for the house, didn't they? Or do property rights only apply to People Exactly Like Us?

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Look, what we have here is very common and not just an issue of "Detroiters encroaching into the suburbs". It's the cultural clash that naturally occurs when peoples of different backgrounds, socio-economic roots, or any other demographic including age, religion, etc. come into contact with each other.

I experienced this a lot growing up because my parents were foreign, and I was a 1st gen American. They were fresh off the boat. And my family would regulary do things that were "weird" or "strange" by the social norms of my neighborhood on Detroit's eastside...then they eventually assimilated. That was 30+ years ago, and now when I tell my friends the stories of what my parents were like growing up they laugh at the incredulity of the stories.

So, yes, it doesn't surprise me as culture shock if you're moving from the Denby district to the posh lawns of Troy. No more than if you're a 3-generation kid from the Bronx moving into Sweet Home Alabama. Or if you're the old professor moving into the neighborhood of 19-year-old college students.

Of course, there's resentment on both sides, but like it or not, the people moving in will likely be the ones feeling the most pressure to change. And they will, if they want to stay in the neighborhood.

I grilled on my front porch for 6 long years in Ann Arbor. That is because I lived in a rowhouse with no back porch, let alone a backyard. So, no, it wasn't because I was from Detroit. All my neighbors did so.

The main issue is that what "middle class white suburban America" sees as a universal norm are actually specific cultural practices. I was like most Americans. I didn't know there was a such thing as "white middle class suburban American culture" until I was in graduate school. That's because it's generally positioned within our society as the norm, and may be even as we move towards that demographic being a numerical minority.

When people move into majority white, middle class, suburban neighborhoods, I agree they should take up the culture of those who live there if they have peace. I love to blast my music on the highway, but I learned when I am traveling in neighborhoods, it's best to turn the noise down. However, I tend to be polite, at least in person [[no matter what I'm thinking). Others may see no need to change their cultural practices or assimilate. Other than the association agreement, it's a free country.

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Originally Posted by English

I grilled on my front porch for 6 long years in Ann Arbor. That is because I lived in a rowhouse with no back porch, let alone a backyard. So, no, it wasn't because I was from Detroit. All my neighbors did so.

The main issue is that what "middle class white suburban America" sees as a universal norm are actually specific cultural practices. I was like most Americans. I didn't know there was a such thing as "white middle class suburban American culture" until I was in graduate school. That's because it's generally positioned within our society as the norm, and may be even as we move towards that demographic being a numerical minority.

When people move into majority white, middle class, suburban neighborhoods, I agree they should take up the culture of those who live there if they have peace. I love to blast my music on the highway, but I learned when I am traveling in neighborhoods, it's best to turn the noise down. However, I tend to be polite, at least in person [[no matter what I'm thinking). Others may see no need to change their cultural practices or assimilate. Other than the association agreement, it's a free country.

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I'm right there with you, English. When I was 22, living in Ann Arbor, we had a hideous couch on the front porch, and me and my buddies would down 40-oz. bottles of Mickey's Fine Malt Liquor in the middle of the afternoon on Tuesday. Did I do this because I was from Detroit? No. I did it because I was in college. Hell, most of my housemates that year were from the Birminghams and Grosse Pointes of the world, and they did it too.

But now I'm a grown up. And even though I still listen to much of the music that you would've heard at Club LAX in my car driving down I-94, I know well enough not to be playing it out my window on Sunday morning if I want to live in peace with my neighborhood.

No one way is right or wrong. There's a lot I don't like about upper middle class suburban neighborhoods, which is why I live in Corktown. But if you're moving from the hood in search of greener pastures in Birmingham, you can't be pissed when they expect you to behave differently when you get there.....

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Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Look, what we have here is very common and not just an issue of "Detroiters encroaching into the suburbs". It's the cultural clash that naturally occurs when peoples of different backgrounds, socio-economic roots, or any other demographic including age, religion, etc. come into contact with each other.

I experienced this a lot growing up because my parents were foreign, and I was a 1st gen American. They were fresh off the boat. And my family would regulary do things that were "weird" or "strange" by the social norms of my neighborhood on Detroit's eastside...then they eventually assimilated. That was 30+ years ago, and now when I tell my friends the stories of what my parents were like growing up they laugh at the incredulity of the stories.

So, yes, it doesn't surprise me as culture shock if you're moving from the Denby district to the posh lawns of Troy. No more than if you're a 3-generation kid from the Bronx moving into Sweet Home Alabama. Or if you're the old professor moving into the neighborhood of 19-year-old college students.

Of course, there's resentment on both sides, but like it or not, the people moving in will likely be the ones feeling the most pressure to change. And they will, if they want to stay in the neighborhood.

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I pretty much agree with this. I was responding to the implication voiced by several posters that every single human being on the face of the earth should come out of the womb knowing not to do these things unless there's something egregiously wrong with them, which I think is horseshit.

Grilling on the front porch seems to me like a good way to enjoy delicious food, watch the comings and goings of the neighborhood, and casually interact with your neighbors. It's a dynamic akin to the Jane Jacobs "street ballet," and probably helps keep the neighborhood safer. Anyway, I can't see how it would possibly harm anyone, and I wouldn't mind at all if some of my neighbors decided to do it regularly. I might even get my own grill and join in.

Now, if you live in a neighborhood where all or most of your neighbors have a serious problem with your grilling parties, it might be advisable for you to stop doing it or move somewhere else, just because it's generally not much fun to live in a place where all your neighbors are continually angry at you. But if someone decides that they care more about grilling on their porch than about their relationships with their neighbors, I still don't see anything wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by antongast

I pretty much agree with this. I was responding to the implication voiced by several posters that every single human being on the face of the earth should come out of the womb knowing not to do these things unless there's something egregiously wrong with them, which I think is horseshit.

Grilling on the front porch seems to me like a good way to enjoy delicious food, watch the comings and goings of the neighborhood, and casually interact with your neighbors. It's a dynamic akin to the Jane Jacobs "street ballet," and probably helps keep the neighborhood safer. Anyway, I can't see how it would possibly harm anyone, and I wouldn't mind at all if some of my neighbors decided to do it regularly. I might even get my own grill and join in.

Now, if you live in a neighborhood where all or most of your neighbors have a serious problem with your grilling parties, it might be advisable for you to stop doing it or move somewhere else, just because it's generally not much fun to live in a place where all your neighbors are continually angry at you. But if someone decides that they care more about grilling on their porch than about their relationships with their neighbors, I still don't see anything wrong with it.

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Only one person mentioned grilling on the front porch. The several other posters were referring to the statement about cutting the grass and taking the party inside after midnight.

You seem to have latched on to the idea of grilling on the porch, but let me throw some other things out there that cause consternation among certain communities:

Not mowing lawns for weeks and weeks at a time.

Never edging. Ever.

Not pulling weeds. Ever.

Not raking leaves. Ever.

Not shoveling the sidewalk. Ever.

Allowing all the handbills and fliers to collect wherever they are left, including in the weed-choked flower bed.

Allowing bits of blown trash to land and sit on and around the property. Forever.

If a fence falls down or a gutter falls off, leaving it where it lay. Forever.

Working on cars in the street or driveway. As a job.

Leaving cars in the street with flat tires.

Not cleaning up after one's dogs.

Screaming up and down the street to communicate.

Dumping construction debris and what-all in ones own backyard.

Never mowing said backyard. Ever.

Using living room furniture on the porch.


These are all examples of behaviors fresh from the farm that don't always mesh with people who aren't.

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Originally Posted by Eric_c

You seem to have latched on to the idea of grilling on the porch, but let me throw some other things out there that cause consternation among certain communities:

Not mowing lawns for weeks and weeks at a time.

Never edging. Ever.

Not pulling weeds. Ever.

Not raking leaves. Ever.

Not shoveling the sidewalk. Ever.

Allowing all the handbills and fliers to collect wherever they are left, including in the weed-choked flower bed.

Allowing bits of blown trash to land and sit on and around the property. Forever.

If a fence falls down or a gutter falls off, leaving it where it lay. Forever.

Working on cars in the street or driveway. As a job.

Leaving cars in the street with flat tires.

Not cleaning up after one's dogs.

Screaming up and down the street to communicate.

Dumping construction debris and what-all in ones own backyard.

Never mowing said backyard. Ever.

Using living room furniture on the porch.


These are all examples of behaviors fresh from the farm that don't always mesh with people who aren't.

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Wow. I don't know... do you guys think that some of Detroit's bane has been because we weren't ever a traditionally urban city? I think that a growing number of people of all classes simply aren't "house people," and many people who grew up renting never learned the basics of home care [[or the norms of middle and upper class communities).

This discussion has really made me think. The city may have been better off had there not been so much open land and space, but perhaps one reason it's so bad off visually is because we're expecting people from generations of poverty and little to no home ownership to understand what you have to do to maintain a home. In other cities, they lived in multifamily dwellings and highrises. Those in a similar demographic in other cities didn't have the large, single family homes that they were able to rent in Detroit.

I know how to take care of my house because my parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were home owners. So do many of you. Conversely, if I'd always rented, it might seem intimidating.

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Originally Posted by Eric_c

You seem to have latched on to the idea of grilling on the porch, but let me throw some other things out there that cause consternation among certain communities:

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I latched onto it [[admittedly, somewhat unfairly) because it was the best example of the point I was trying to make. But almost everything on this list is subjective to some extent, and everyone is annoyed by different sorts of behaviors. I just think it's important that, if we're going to have a bunch of unwritten rules about what people can and can't do with their houses, we critically examine them from time to time and make sure that they're actually rooted in some sort of identifiable quality-of-life issue for the broader neighborhood and not just in the desire to exclude or belittle people we perceive as boorish or low-class.

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Originally Posted by English

Wow. I don't know... do you guys think that some of Detroit's bane has been because we weren't ever a traditionally urban city? I think that a growing number of people of all classes simply aren't "house people," and many people who grew up renting never learned the basics of home care [[or the norms of middle and upper class communities).

This discussion has really made me think. The city may have been better off had there not been so much open land and space, but perhaps one reason it's so bad off visually is because we're expecting people from generations of poverty and little to no home ownership to understand what you have to do to maintain a home. In other cities, they lived in multifamily dwellings and highrises. Those in a similar demographic in other cities didn't have the large, single family homes that they were able to rent in Detroit.

I know how to take care of my house because my parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were home owners. So do many of you. Conversely, if I'd always rented, it might seem intimidating.

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The issue isn't that some people don't know how to sweat copper pipe properly or run a new circuit for their pool filter. We're talking about raking, mowing, shoveling and picking up after oneself.

It's not lack of knowledge. It's lack of caring about basic homeowner/renter chores. It's not important to them. They don't give a shit. It's cultural. You don't see the Polish grandmothers living like this whether they be rich/poor or owners/renters. It's culture. What's valued and what's not. What does it take to get off the porch and pickup the trash on your front lawn you've been staring at for months? It takes the desire to do so, either because you value a trash-free yard, or you care about the fact that your neighbors do.

It's not a city/suburb or black/white thing. There is a sub-culture, IMO a dysfunctional one though that's of course a reflection of my values, that some call "ghetto" or "white trash". Take Eric C's list of gripes, and expand it to swearing in public no matter who's around, dropping trash on the ground, failing to properly feed, educate or inculcate your kids, scamming your way through life, using sheets, towels and newspapers as drapes, spending your money on a fancy Rent-a-Center TV a month before getting evicted, etc.

Maybe people who live like this learned from their parents, didn't have better role models, went to crappy schools, whatever. Bottom line, I don't want to live near them. Neither do most other people. That's why some areas are shitholes and are going to stay that way. Not code for "Detroit", plenty of nicer areas in Detroit not overrun with idiots. Lots of suburban neighborhoods full of ghetto/white trash folk, ahem, "people with different cultural values".

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

The issue isn't that some people don't know how to sweat copper pipe properly or run a new circuit for their pool filter. We're talking about raking, mowing, shoveling and picking up after oneself.

It's not lack of knowledge. It's lack of caring about basic homeowner/renter chores. It's not important to them. They don't give a shit. It's cultural. You don't see the Polish grandmothers living like this whether they be rich/poor or owners/renters. It's culture. What's valued and what's not. What does it take to get off the porch and pickup the trash on your front lawn you've been staring at for months? It takes the desire to do so, either because you value a trash-free yard, or you care about the fact that your neighbors do.

It's not a city/suburb or black/white thing. There is a sub-culture, IMO a dysfunctional one though that's of course a reflection of my values, that some call "ghetto" or "white trash". Take Eric C's list of gripes, and expand it to swearing in public no matter who's around, dropping trash on the ground, failing to properly feed, educate or inculcate your kids, scamming your way through life, using sheets, towels and newspapers as drapes, spending your money on a fancy Rent-a-Center TV a month before getting evicted, etc.

Maybe people who live like this learned from their parents, didn't have better role models, went to crappy schools, whatever. Bottom line, I don't want to live near them. Neither do most other people. That's why some areas are shitholes and are going to stay that way. Not code for "Detroit", plenty of nicer areas in Detroit not overrun with idiots. Lots of suburban neighborhoods full of ghetto/white trash folk, ahem, "people with different cultural values".

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[[1) I don't want to live near them either.
[[2) For those that know how to change but won't, they can go on to suffer
[[3) But for many, if given the opportunity, they would change. People change. People change! Sometimes willingly. Sometimes they change and grow because they are forced to [[i.e. City leaders all of sudden dealing with this sudden and unexpected fiscal crisis).

This sub-culture...white, black, shades of grey... there are versions of it all over the world. I have a friend from Norway who refers to Finland as "the Mexico of the Scandinavian Peninsula" [[Apologies to my Finnish and Mexican brethren). It's the INEVITABILITY of an unequal society.

And while it's easy for me, living in the privilege of my upper income and education, to look at them and judge...let's remember that in the passage of time, generations coming after us will look at me and my ways from a position of greater wealth and privilege and shudder at the crude standards and values by which I allowed myself to live. No different than we hear stories of our grandparents sharing a bedroom with 3 other siblings. WTF??!

Look, I get the desire to not have to deal with "these people". It's natural. I went to private school because my parents wanted me to avoid "these people". I have a secured garage and live on the 5th floor to avoid "these people".

But here's the other reality. Like it or not, these people are here. And their troubles eventually become our troubles. Even if they don't live next door,.,.moving 6 blocks, 6 miles, or 6 cities away will not change that.

It's not either/or. Some of these shitholes will remain shitholes. Others are made of people who will want to change. Reward those who are making the effort. Look compassionately at the suffering of those who won't. C'est la vie....

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if we're going to have a bunch of unwritten rules about what people can and can't do with their houses

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I think in most places they are written rules- city codes etc.

I don't know where thins is going or what it has to do with the thread topic, but none of the things in post #33 were done where I grew up on the Northwest side [[Greenfield/Puritan). It was a blue collar neighborhood, but everybody took care of their homes. Trash was kept in the back yard, cans put out the night before pick-up [[or maybe even that morning) and brought in before nightfall.

Lawns were always cut and edged. Snow was cleared off sidewalks. If the neighbors couldn't do theirs due to age or illness, somebody else did it for them.

It was urban as any other place, but it wasn't ghetto. I'd really hate to see that area now.

And it isn't 'a bunch of unwritten rules about what people can and can't do with their houses '. It's how mature, responsible adults behave.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I still live in Royal Oak...

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Yeah, I kinda figured, considering the hostility in your post.

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Ummmm, and no my only "experience" with a bus system was not PACE. I've never even taken PACE, never said that I did.

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That what one of your previous posts said. I check those to make sure I'm not wasting time responding to some dubious troll.

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I just think using "Royal Joke" would be like someone around you calling Detroit, Detoilet all the time.

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If the shoe fits. I've lived in Detroit as long as I've lived in RJ, the only member of my family or childhood friends to do so. Believe me, I'm used to it.

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What do you mean by this? You make it sound like RO has suddenly become what happened Highland Park...

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No, it's not that deep. My family had some personal issues with the city that ballooned into a serious situation.

My father, who worked religiously on avg. 60-80 hrs a week, got a $350 ticket from RO code enforcement because there was peeling paint on the garage. Upset, he went to the CE office to try and work something out. They weren't having any of that. When Dad inquired as to how the CE person even saw the peeling paint, since our drive is narrow, our conversion van was parked in the drive and you can't see past it, the CE guy told him he went into the back yard to inspect, which sounds a lot like "trespassing" to my Dad. Things got ugly, and it went to court. The fine was reduced. Then, about 8 mo's later, Dad gets a notice that he's in contempt of court for failing to appear and a warrent has been issued for his arrest. Dad's lawyer found out that the CE issued my Dad another ticket for peeling paint the day after the previous court date, as well as a ticket for having a two track cement drive [[as opposed to a whole slab, It was 2 track when we moved there) and a ticket for parking his work truck on the street [[not an actual violation if it's parked there unmoved for less than 24 hrs). The CE guy never sent copies or the notice to appear to my Dad, as it was obviously a personal grudge. As a matter of fact, they claimed that they didn't have to send copies or tape them to the door. As a "responsible homeowner" every property owner is expected to inquire into any and all legalities involving said property. The CE guy also had no qualms about letting my Dad know that, "..if you can't handle living up to the standards expected by our city code, maybe you and your family would be better off living elsewhere." My Dad, who's never been convicted of a crime and always kept a roof over his family's head and made time to mow his lawn, was now a wanted man in Royal Oak because of peeling paint on the garage. He was gone within 6 mos. I was already long gone to Detroit.

No one would care to read the pages of stories I could write about regarding the issues my counterparts and I dealt with living there.

I feel like I've become the perpetrator of a tread jacking. I'm glad no one was hurt in the shooting at the Y and they caught the careless that did it.

I remember about 5 years back I saw everything I needed to see. There was a big snow storm and a week later the sidewalks weren't shoveled so of the news stations got volunteers [[from the suburbs) and cleaned off these people's sidewalks. What was sad was when they went knocking on the door, you saw young people in their 20's walking around in bath robes. This is just pure laziness. Shovel your snow. Pick up your garbage. Cut your grass. That is not unwritten rules. Its what civilized people do around the world. Nothing to do with farmers and all those excuses. Its ghetto trash.

well this thread is following my 'don't read anything past page one' rule. Jeez. I figured this would turn into who does what better type of thread.

I've never took PACE as I lived in the city. I remember talking about PACE in another thread [[about SMART's leaving the city during non-peak hours). As with your father, I bet one of your neighbors told the city about the garage and that why he came out to see. A snooty neighbor of ours called the city to tell them about some small cement slabs [[old ones from when we put in a patio) we had in our backyard. Suddenly we get in the mail, from our the city, pictures and warning if we did not remove the cement slabs we would fined. We 1) were stunned and 2) complied.

It makes me cringe however that your family rents, hopefully this isn't residential property.

There is nothing wrong with grilling on the porch it just a sign you live in a po' folks zone, or a tucky area.

I understand about all kinds of hillbilly type individuals living in urban areas as well. Some people think living in urban areas prevents one from being hillbillyish I do not understand this mentality.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

It makes me cringe however that your family rents, hopefully this isn't residential property.

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???

Why is that? Because the house has a cement 2 track instead of a full slab? or cuz the garage had some peeling paint 15 years ago? My Father takes care of his house, as previously stated.

And what other type of property has a lawn, garage and a driveway with a family living in it?

Boringscam, jerkeley, I am homegrown detroiter, I fought in two conflicts and still proudly say i learned to shoot at seven mile and Livernois.....lol

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Originally Posted by Danny

It's seems to me with all the job losses and economic depression violent crime is last resort.

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That's demagoguery, pure and simple.

Where are you at that you see wave upon wave of cruisers? the most i have seen in one place was when RO and MH were pulling me over. there were five of them but thats back in '90 and that was the border of two cities. i haven't been there in a while, but i still have contacts back there.

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Originally Posted by lapdawg

Boringscam, jerkeley, I am homegrown detroiter, I fought in two conflicts and still proudly say i learned to shoot at seven mile and Livernois.....lol

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The best thing about Seven Mile and Livernois was this ridiculous drug store called -- no joke -- "Phone Don for Drugs". Good times.

"...do you guys think that some of Detroit's bane has been because we weren't ever a traditionally urban city? I think that a growing number of people of all classes simply aren't "house people," In other cities, they lived in multifamily dwellings and highrises. Those in a similar demographic in other cities didn't have the large, single family homes that they were able to rent in Detroit."


I think this has everything to do with why Detroit has failed so miserably. The overwhelming majority of it consists of the least desirable housing, and said housing has long outlived its cultural lifespan. Sure, the houses themselves could still be charming had they been maintained properly, but lot sizes are far too small, in conjunction with the majority of the houses that sit on them.

In terms of housing stock, Detroit is the worst of both worlds; on the one hand, larger American cities skew heavily toward high-rise condo and apartment living, with retail and services within walking, biking or short-driving distance [[East Coast and Midwest). On the other, you have single family homes, almost all of which are at least 1000 sf feet, on lot sized considerably larger than most of Detroit's parcels [[South and West Coast).

But Detroit is crammed with tiny houses on tiny lots. There is no room to breath. It only makes sense that once people could leave the city for larger houses on larger lots, they did [[in the absence of quality high-rise options). Take Brightmoor for example. That neighborhood was specifically intended to be a neighborhood of starter homes. In face, some oversized [[for Detroit) lots had tiny houses built on them with the intention that the owner would eventually demolish it and build a larger one.

In that sense, it's as if Detroit is overwhelmed with starter homes. Now that a few generations have moved up and out, and the country's standard of living has become higher in many respects, what is left is a city full of houses desirable to almost no one.

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Originally Posted by ismoakrack

"... in many respects, what is left is a city full of houses desirable to almost no one."

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I agree.

Every turn of the century house in Detroit is not a gem. I would wager that over 1/3 of them should not, sensibly, even be occupied.

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Originally Posted by ismoakrack

In that sense, it's as if Detroit is overwhelmed with starter homes. Now that a few generations have moved up and out, and the country's standard of living has become higher in many respects, what is left is a city full of houses desirable to almost no one.

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+1. I know that the single family home was part of the middle class "American Dream". But, man, what an inefficient way to design a city. It's a WHOLE lot easier to maintain, police, serice a building that's 25% vacant than it is a block that's 25% vacant.

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Originally Posted by ismoakrack

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In that sense, it's as if Detroit is overwhelmed with starter homes. Now that a few generations have moved up and out, and the country's standard of living has become higher in many respects, what is left is a city full of houses desirable to almost no one...

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Another take on this is not that we have too many starter homes but we don't have enough "starters".