NYT: "Well-Educated Flock to Some Cities, Leaving Others Behind"

Dayton has used internships as a glue to keep recent graduates, and the city found through a recent survey that graduates were twice as likely to stay if they had done an internship at a local business. One of them, Richard Kaiser, who graduated from Wright State University, stayed in Dayton, because it was cheaper and seemed faster to advance in a career, a choice he does not regret. Friends who moved to Chicago, he said, “ended up sitting at home and drinking cheap beer and playing video games every night.”

for the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/us...behind.html?hp

I guess we think its all glam in Chicago!

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Originally Posted by SWMAP

Dayton has used internships as a glue to keep recent graduates, and the city found through a recent survey that graduates were twice as likely to stay if they had done an internship at a local business. One of them, Richard Kaiser, who graduated from Wright State University, stayed in Dayton, because it was cheaper and seemed faster to advance in a career, a choice he does not regret. Friends who moved to Chicago, he said, “ended up sitting at home and drinking cheap beer and playing video games every night.”

for the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/us...behind.html?hp

I guess we think its all glam in Chicago!

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The White kids [[mainly) that come to Chicago come for job opportunities and the lifestyle. They may be low-level retail workers or highly paid contractors on LaSalle Street, but I doubt they are sitting at home drinking cheap beer. Those are the college students at Northwestern and U of C.

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Originally Posted by Chicago48

The White kids [[mainly) that come to Chicago come for job opportunities and the lifestyle. They may be low-level retail workers or highly paid contractors on LaSalle Street, but I doubt they are sitting at home drinking cheap beer. Those are the college students at Northwestern and U of C.

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Chicago, however, is losing a lot more "white kids" then they're gaining. Chicago had a net loss of over 50,000 whites in the last Census.

I assume you're talking about the phenomenon of postcollegiate youth settling in urban centers, which, while true, isn't really the same trend being referenced in the article.

The article is referencing metro areas, not city centers, and is talking about % college grads, not where postcollegiate folks get their first job.

So, for example, Raleigh and Austin [[not exactly strong urban cores) are ranked very high, while Philly and Chicago [[generally strong urban cores) are ranked in the middle.

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Originally Posted by SWMAP

Dayton has used internships as a glue to keep recent graduates, and the city found through a recent survey that graduates were twice as likely to stay if they had done an internship at a local business. One of them, Richard Kaiser, who graduated from Wright State University, stayed in Dayton, because it was cheaper and seemed faster to advance in a career, a choice he does not regret. Friends who moved to Chicago, he said, “ended up sitting at home and drinking cheap beer and playing video games every night.”

for the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/us...behind.html?hp

I guess we think its all glam in Chicago!

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Funny thing is, I know people in Dayton that sit at home playing video games and drinking cheap beer because there's nothing to do. Personally, I've found things to love in Dayton, but they can run out quick if your friends flock elsewhere.

Meanwhile, folks I know here in Chicago are out exercising on the beautiful lakefront, having fun watching the cubs lose, or at least hitting up any one of the hundreds of local bars or restaurants within walkable distance after work.

I realize bigger cities tend to be more expensive. Yes, I pay more in rent than I did in Michigan, but you make up for it when other expenditures are reduced [[like driving for example) You're also paying for amenity...not necessarily square footage. Living near the beach or shopping justifies the higher cost.

But there's plenty of safe neighborhoods in all directions that have rents you'd find in places like Grand Rapids or Kalamazoo. Currently I'm considering moving from Michigan Ave to the popular Logan Square neighborhood that has rents near what I paid in Saginaw. And with the number of young professionals having families and raising their kids there and new schools under construction, and low crime, I might just stick around later on when I have a family.

As for moving up in the work force, that's hard to say. I guess in the case of this story I could respond by saying with the lack of talented competition...the individual may propel his career forward. With all his educated peers heading to other places, I guess that leaves you behind to lead. If professional development is absolutely your number one thing, then great. But good talent should be applicable anywhere and is more contingent on the workplace...not the city.

At the same time, I know plenty of folks that not only want to move forward in their career but live in an exciting and energetic city. Live the dream of being in the center of it all and when they've exhausted that lifestyle they'll settle for a more modest place.

I absolutely love Chicago, but I know I won't be here forever. But I know I'd regret not moving here while I was still young.

In response to Bham1982's post, while I can't debate absolute census numbers, I can clarify them. Keep in mind that the areas that lost people...black or white were away from the downtown areas and gentrified neighborhoods. The answer is obvious, educated folks are moving to areas close to jobs and amenities.....not Northwest Chicago, deep southside, or the far west side. Most of these losses are still tied to manufacturing losses. We hardly make things here in anymore. Meanwhile, the loop and RN areas had 200% growth in residents and every week there seems to be a company bailing on the suburbs and heading downtown. So as long as Chicago maintains job growth they'll continue to attract an educated workforce

Detroit can absolutely follow an identical model. Bring more jobs downtown, more residents will come.

I keep saying that you cannot compare Detroit to Chicago. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Both cities could stand to learn from each other's positives and negatives, but they are far from being alike.

I met up with my sister in Chicago last week where she took a direct flight in from Manhattan. I came in from Detroit. She swore up and down that Chicago streets were much busier than Manhattan's. I explained to her that it's probably because Chicago's streets are smaller and it just appears that way compared to New York's wide streets and openness. She somewhat agreed after taking notice but was still very skeptical. None the less, she was absolutely amazed with the entire city. She never expected it to be what it is. However, the reputation of horrible violence concerned her greatly and she appeared to feel much safer in NYC.



As we sat outside a cafe after our drive through popular neighborhoods such as Old Town, Logan Square, West Loop, Wicker Park/Bucktown, West Town, Lake View East, Lincoln Park, Lincoln Square, Uptown, Edgewater, Rogers Park, Garfield Park and Hyde Park, we talked about our fair city Detroit. We discussed what Detroit needs to become a vibrant city. How can Detroit NOT experience the same crowded streets as Chicago and other big cities alike? The first thing she brought up was public transportation. But in the end, just like all of us here on this site, we ended our discussion without answers and shaking our heads. All we could say was "we hope", "we hope", "we hope."

And for everyone who thinks Chicago is luring young white professionals only, I have news for you...I know of several black professionals and non-professionals who've left for Chicago and they are loving that city, claiming to never be returning to Michigan. Young college grads want to be in a vibrant urban environment, whether they're sitting in an apartment playing video games and drinking beer. They want options and lots of them and other cities are producing.

It's the same thing with the "new so-called" urban areas of the States. For example Portland has a vibrant street scene that doesn't exist in Detroit. Yet Detroit has so much more history to offer and should be blowing cities out of the water such as Portland, Austin, Philly, Chicago, Columbus, Pittsburg, Ann Arbor etc... Yet we struggle beyond belief.

Is it our leadership? Is it regional? Is it jobs? Or is Detroit really that bad and we just don't see it?

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Is it our leadership? Is it regional? Is it jobs? Or is Detroit really that bad and we just don't see it?

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All of the above. Leadership is and has been terrible. The region is divided into ridiculous fiefdoms and is unable to cooperate. There has been tremendous job loss. And Detroit is really quite bad in a large number of dimensions--the high level of criminality and low level of education being the most important. There are good things happening, but they are enveloped in a miasma of dysfunction, and you can hardly expect most people to look past that.

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Originally Posted by mwilbert

All of the above. Leadership is and has been terrible. The region is divided into ridiculous fiefdoms and is unable to cooperate. There has been tremendous job loss. And Detroit is really quite bad in a large number of dimensions--the high level of criminality and low level of eeeducation being the most important. There are good things happening, but they are enveloped in a miasma of dysfunction, and you can hardly expect most people to look past that.

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Yep, that about sums up my reply to illwill's post as well.

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Originally Posted by illwill

I keep saying that you cannot compare Detroit to Chicago. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Both cities could stand to learn from each other's positives and negatives, but they are far from being alike.

I met up with my sister in Chicago last week where she took a direct flight in from Manhattan. I came in from Detroit. She swore up and down that Chicago streets were much busier than Manhattan's. I explained to her that it's probably because Chicago's streets are smaller and it just appears that way compared to New York's wide streets and openness. She somewhat agreed after taking notice but was still very skeptical. None the less, she was absolutely amazed with the entire city. She never expected it to be what it is. However, the reputation of horrible violence concerned her greatly and she appeared to feel much safer in NYC.

...

Is it our leadership? Is it regional? Is it jobs? Or is Detroit really that bad and we just don't see it?

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I live in Manhattan and visit Chicago at least once per year. I like Chicago but I have never ever had the feeling that Chicago's streets are busier than New York's. Ever. lol.

I think Chicago reminds me as much of Detroit as it does NYC. I think of it as the middle ground between the two extremes that are NYC and Detroit.

But yeah, you will be waiting a very long time for Detroit to ever be a vibrant city without some serious investment in mass transit. Detroit seems to be no closer to solving that transit issue than it was six years ago when I left.

I was in Detroit over the past weekend and took a drive through the city just to see how it was looking. Long story short, it's stunningly abandoned. It's pretty unfathomable that any leadership authority with jurisdiction over the city [[city, county, state) isn't in crisis mode right now. It's also pretty hard for me to imagine any type of meaningful turnaround without some fundamental changes in how things are done around there.

And then there's the racial divide, and all of the accumulated historical and political resentments, which are still much worse in the Detroit area than anywhere else in the U.S. I've ever been. Chicago is a deeply racially divided city with a difficult racial history, but you don't have people commonly referring to the core city with racial epithets the way you do here. And while Chicago and the rest of the state of Illinois have not always had a friendly relationship, you don't have a state politics that so often devolves to blaming and isolating "those people" and underfunding the big city the way we do in Michigan.

Hey iheartthed-

I don't think people understand how much money it takes to operate mass transit and also the extremely high level of ridership that I'lltake to support such a massive investment over time. As much as I think the city needs mass transit, I'd hate to see it fail due to lack of profitability. Anyway, I think we're to use to being in our cars and then the concern of crime on mass transit will also discourage ridership aside from the people who'll be forced to take the train.

Are there enough people between Jefferson and the New Center to support a transit system? Also keeping in mind the competition being bikes, pedestrian and automobile.

It's a tough call but If anytime is the right time, the timeis now. If Gilbert can't do it, then it might not ever get done.

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Originally Posted by illwill

Hey iheartthed-

I don't think people understand how much money it takes to operate mass transit and also the extremely high level of ridership that I'lltake to support such a massive investment over time. As much as I think the city needs mass transit, I'd hate to see it fail due to lack of profitability. Anyway, I think we're to use to being in our cars and then the concern of crime on mass transit will also discourage ridership aside from the people who'll be forced to take the train.

Are there enough people between Jefferson and the New Center to support a transit system? Also keeping in mind the competition being bikes, pedestrian and automobile.

It's a tough call but If anytime is the right time, the timeis now. If Gilbert can't do it, then it might not ever get done.

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Mass transit is a public service. It doesn't need to be profitable. Roads, sidewalks, streetlights, police, fire, and EMS services aren't profitable either.

But how often are citizens of NY and Chicago having to constantly deal with rising transit cost fees? Or the threat of it? Constant talks of cuts in service etc…

I guess what I shouldhave said was it has to make sense for the gov. to have to back such aninvestment. If they're to get involved.

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Originally Posted by illwill

But how often are citizens of NY and Chicago having to constantly deal with rising transit cost fees? Or the threat of it? Constant talks of cuts in service etc…

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Perhaps you should draw the logical analogy and also comment on the rash of carjackings in Detroit in the 1980s, the rising price of gasoline and asphalt, and sky-high insurance premiums in the City of Detroit. Are these automobile-related concerns any different than the ones you posit regarding transit?

But, I digress.

I am in the process of leaving Chicago for Detroit. My husband and I live in an awesome part of Wicker Park and are in the process of buying a house in Woodbridge.

I feel like Wicker Park has more bars and restaurants in it than all of downtown Detroit - there's absolutely more to do in Chicago and it's way more exciting. I think as a college grad, the choice is easy. However, I'm 29 and he's 30 and we're both professionals now. We've done the city thing and have had an awesome time living it up [[not sitting at home drinking cheap beer) but our goals, wants, and needs are changing. We still want to go out, but a rotation of 5 good spots would work; I don't need all of Chicago at my disposal and I'm not willing to pay for it at this point. I sort of felt like we were spinning our wheels financially there whereas in Detroit, we can actually BUY a house instead of rent and pay down our student loans. We can be completely debt free in about six years... that's part of what brought us both to Detroit.

I just spent my first full weekend in Detroit [[Friday through Wednesday) and my 20-year-old brother was in town from LSU to help us move. First of all, he loves Detroit, but after going out all weekend long, I could tell that it would be a bit lacking for him over the next five to ten years compared to his college town or Chicago. But good luck getting Detroit out of his head right now-he sees a lot of possibilities for himself that aren't there in other major cities.

As far as transit, if my hometown Houston can do it, Detroit can do it. Houston and Detroit have so much in common, from being overly dependent on one industry to car culture and its effect on mass transit to seeing a revitalization of the downtown core. I think it took us about fifteen years to get the first light rail pushed through and ridership utterly sucked at first. It's getting better now though and I think there are a few more lines planned.

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Originally Posted by illwill

But how often are citizens of NY and Chicago having to constantly deal with rising transit cost fees? Or the threat of it? Constant talks of cuts in service etc…

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When you compare it to the volatile cost of gasoline it pales in comparison. I pay $104/month for an unlimited monthly Metro Card that I can use to get me to just about any place in New York City that I would ever need, want or think about going. Last weekend, I rented a car when I was in Detroit and spent more than $60 just to fill the gas tank once.

Then there's the fact that roads aren't free either. And yes, you do need to spend money on roads, but there comes a point where building and expanding roads is not an efficient use of taxpayer money to provide mobility for the population at large. There needs to be a balance struck between roads and transit.

If you aren't sold yet then consider this: real estate values in regions with good transit networks are higher than regions without good transit networks. You can buy a livable house in Detroit for what it costs to rent a 1 bedroom apartment for a year in Boston or DC. You can buy a house in West Bloomfield for half of what it costs to buy a 1 bedroom condo in Harlem.

I suppose DC/NoVA is like Chicago in some ways because it attracts a lot of young talent. However, there seems to be a hell of a lot more opportunity here in DC than in Chicago at this time. Most of the people I know who moved from Michigan to Chicago did it for “lifestyle” reasons first, and a career second. DC is the other way around. Although thousands of younger folks flock to DC, they do it primarily for the jobs…the lifestyle comes second.

Strangely enough, I meet Chicago ex-pats on a daily basis in DC and they say they would never go back. Of course, most actually grew up in the Chicago region so their opinions are probably different than some kid from Kalamazoo who yearns for the urban high life.

Call it anecdotal, but cities like NYC, Chicago and DC seem more like places to “go” rather than places to stay. Most people I know from the Midwest who flock to these cities eventually leave after 5 years or so. Not all…but most. I guess my generation is a bit more transient than previous ones.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Mass transit is a public service. It doesn't need to be profitable. Roads, sidewalks, streetlights, police, fire, and EMS services aren't profitable either.

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In fact, it is never profitable in America, due to our geography and our heavy oil subsidies. But it is still needed in every city.

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Originally Posted by Patrick

I suppose DC/NoVA is like Chicago in some ways because it attracts a lot of young talent. However, there seems to be a hell of a lot more opportunity here in DC than in Chicago at this time. Most of the people I know who moved from Michigan to Chicago did it for “lifestyle” reasons first, and a career second. DC is the other way around. Although thousands of younger folks flock to DC, they do it primarily for the jobs…the lifestyle comes second.

Strangely enough, I meet Chicago ex-pats on a daily basis in DC and they say they would never go back. Of course, most actually grew up in the Chicago region so their opinions are probably different than some kid from Kalamazoo who yearns for the urban high life.

Call it anecdotal, but cities like NYC, Chicago and DC seem more like places to “go” rather than places to stay. Most people I know from the Midwest who flock to these cities eventually leave after 5 years or so. Not all…but most. I guess my generation is a bit more transient than previous ones.

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I think we're in the same age group. My sense is that we are a transient group but most of us who flock to places like NY, Chicago, SF, etc., end up not returning to Detroit. We may trade NY for California or Chicago for D.C., but I only know a handful of people who have returned to Detroit.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think we're in the same age group. My sense is that we are a transient group but most of us who flock to places like NY, Chicago, SF, etc., end up not returning to Detroit. We may trade NY for California or Chicago for D.C., but I only know a handful of people who have returned to Detroit.

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You are quite right with not going back to Detroit, at least for most of the younger under-35 crowd. I'll probably end back up in SE MI because I may be able to find a job in my career field in Detroit. I will admit that I have attended a number of going away parties in the last year here in DC for folks leaving for other places...Seattle and San Diego being the two top destinations.

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Originally Posted by illwill

But how often are citizens of NY and Chicago having to constantly deal with rising transit cost fees? Or the threat of it? Constant talks of cuts in service etc…

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There's threats every year. But somehow they manage to evade hikes with either state giving money or private sources. Currently the CTA is selling naming rights to El stations. This would offset station update and maintenance costs.

Subjectively, I'd say the Detroit area has had a bad rep with college grads from the rest of the country for a long time now. Why is that? A combination of things, as usual. First, I'd say there's been a general perception that Detroit proper is a lawless city. Okay, one could live in the burbs, but Detroit has no monopoly on suburbs. What makes Birmingham, Plymouth, Dearborn, or Warren, more desirable than similar suburbs of Chicago, Philly, Seattle, or Dallas?

Second, there's been a general perception that the U.S. auto industry is, at best, stagnant, and at worst dying. Why hire into an industry if you think there's no future in it?

Now, objectively, I'd say the area's greatest weakness is that it's identified with one industry, and that industry remains the largest employer. Detroit's about cars, and for those of us who love cars [[and I include myself in that crowd), that's a good thing, but when the industry is past its prime, that's a drag on the region.

Political leadership? Definitely. In Detroit we had Coleman for 20 years. His leadership seemed to be about settling old scores and looking for the megaproject that would be the savior of the city [[Poletown anyone?), meanwhile leaving the neighborhoods to rot. During the Archer administration we got Comerica Park and the casinos, but that's just more megaprojects. The less said about Kwame the better, and Bing just seems like a cipher who's into something so deep he can't begin to find his way out.

In the burbs, L Brooks still hasn't caught on that outsiders' perceptions of Detroit affect his ability to attract new business to OC. In Wayne, I'll give McNamara the new airport terminals [[travelers actually like connecting through DTW, rather than feeling they're being forced to pass through the gates of hell to get where they want to be), but other than that what the hell did he do? How are Detroit, or Wyandotte, or Dearborn, or Plymouth, better off for him having been County Exec? Ficano just seems to be another machine crook. I don't know who's in charge in Macomb, but that's just a bedroom for folks who work someplace else [[probably Troy or Southfield) anyway.

Regional? Well, I'm not aware of any metro area in the U.S. that has effective Metro governance, so take that off the table. A multitude of local governments? Compare the number of municipalities in any Detroit area county with Camden County, NJ, Delaware County, PA, or Allegheny County, PA. The only difference I can see is that we have strong county governments, with county executives who can personify the counties. That's a good thing, in terms of actually governing the counties, but a bad thing in terms of creating multiple power centers competing to outdo the others.

Now, how do we get out of this fix? First, I don't see any way other than massive transfers from the suburbs or from Lansing to Detroit to allow them to get the cops and firefighters and EMT's to make Detroit a reasonably safe place to live. Detroit simply doesn't have the money to to pay for these things without either massive tax increases [[that would be self-defeating in terms of getting people to live there) or pay cuts [[that would be self-defeating in terms of hiring the next generation of public safety workers).

Second, Detroit has to recognize that it's not able to hang onto the "Crown Jewels" anymore. Detroit let go of the zoo, and has to let go of Belle Isle and the DIA. At the same time, the burbs have to step up and fund these institutions [[as we did with the zoo).

Third, the region needs regional transit to ensure people can get to where the jobs are. We need to end the split between DDOT and SMART. We need light rail and regional rail. We also need to recognize this means the ability to get people to office centers in Troy, Southfield, and Dearborn.

Fourth, people have to get over the idea that a recovery in the auto industry will save us all. The auto industry will always be important here, but it's not going to power the region forward.

Finally, we need to recognize that people outside the area don't discriminate between Detroit, Wayne County, Oakland County, and Macomb County. To them it's all "Detroit". We're really all in this together, and if Detroit sinks we'll all go down.

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Originally Posted by Patrick

You are quite right with not going back to Detroit, at least for most of the younger under-35 crowd. I'll probably end back up in SE MI because I may be able to find a job in my career field in Detroit. I will admit that I have attended a number of going away parties in the last year here in DC for folks leaving for other places...Seattle and San Diego being the two top destinations.

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I agree. I think burn out is a major reason people leave bigcities such as Chicago, D.C or New York. The rat race. At least this is mypersonal experience. The pace, the crowds, the crime, constantly looking overyour shoulder, the expensive cost of living etc. I have a few"die-hard" born and raised LES NY friends who want to leave the NYbadly because they can't afford it. But they see it as giving up. Or they feelif they leave the urban life behind, they view themselves as quitters or they feellife has beaten them and won. I find this to be insane. I think Detroit willeventually become an over-flow city for ex-Michiganders living in other bigcities, looking to return home. Detroit is affordable without the hustle &bustle, crowds, traffic, rudeness, etc. Detroit is a quiet and desolate bigcity with just enough to do where you're staying busy but not overwhelmed bythe madness. But one thing is for sure, I'll always love everything about bigcity living. You can't beat it! I'll miss the feeling of wondering "whatthe hell am I gonna see when I walk our my door today?" Or look out mywindow for that matter... I might return at some point in my life because I'llstill own my building. But for right now I'm ready to get back to Michiganwhere I can go fishing during the day, listen to the Tigers on the radio andreturn to my quiet rural home and sit next to a bonfire...and not some crazypeople hanging out all day in front of my building passing time away.

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Originally Posted by illwill

I agree. I think burn out is a major reason people leave bigcities such as Chicago, D.C or New York. The rat race. At least this is mypersonal experience. The pace, the crowds, the crime, constantly looking overyour shoulder, the expensive cost of living etc. I have a few"die-hard" born and raised LES NY friends who want to leave the NYbadly because they can't afford it. But they see it as giving up. Or they feelif they leave the urban life behind, they view themselves as quitters or they feellife has beaten them and won. I find this to be insane. I think Detroit willeventually become an over-flow city for ex-Michiganders living in other bigcities, looking to return home. Detroit is affordable without the hustle &bustle, crowds, traffic, rudeness, etc. Detroit is a quiet and desolate bigcity with just enough to do where you're staying busy but not overwhelmed bythe madness. But one thing is for sure, I'll always love everything about bigcity living. You can't beat it! I'll miss the feeling of wondering "whatthe hell am I gonna see when I walk our my door today?" Or look out mywindow for that matter... I might return at some point in my life because I'llstill own my building. But for right now I'm ready to get back to Michiganwhere I can go fishing during the day, listen to the Tigers on the radio andreturn to my quiet rural home and sit next to a bonfire...and not some crazypeople hanging out all day in front of my building passing time away.

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I returned here last summer. If opportunity knocks and you have already been to the show [[NY,LA,DC, Chi., wherever), are under 35 and have your $$$hit in order...Michigan is the place to be. You get to be the big fish in the small pond while enjoying dirt cheap living expenses. A few years ago I'd swear up and down that I was NEVER coming back. Now I couldn't be happier that I did.

I'm coming back but I have no desire to be a big fish.