Is he gonna let Gilbert and Illitch have all the fun?
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Is he gonna let Gilbert and Illitch have all the fun?
He's already had tons of "fun"; losing millions on the three Riverfront Apartments. And the taxpayers went along for the "fun", losing tens of millions.Quote:
Originally Posted by gameguy56
Now that Detroit is poorer and emptier, and the region and state broke, time for more "fun"?
That's all well and good, but for specific properties that are at the right price point, the above things become irrelevant. Not saying that we're at those price points. But just saying that I don't believe that your premises necessarily lead to your conclusion.
So he lost money on an investment equals he should never do an investment in Detroit again? Should Tishman Speyer never invest in Manhattan again since their ownership of Stuyvesant Town/Peter Cooper Village ended with the largest real estate default in history?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I wouldn't be shocked if Gilbert was getting some advice or assistance on his retail plans from Taubman or his company but Taubman pretty much still only develops malls.
So I wouldn't expect Taubman to jump into the ring. Though if Illitch is really serious about more than just a new arena for the Wings getting the Taubman group involved could be a possibility. But remember he pulled out of the Cadillac Square mall proposal back in the 80's. So don't expect him in unless it makes financial sense.
Stuy Town was a disaster for Tishman Speyer because of a crazy court ruling that basically invalidated their investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Not analagous to Riverfront Apartments, which have never made any financial sense.
You mean "don't expect him in unless the taxpayers agree to foot the bill, like with Illitch and Gilbert".Quote:
Originally Posted by ElbertHanks
Taubman builds and owns shopping malls. Why the hell would you want them in downtown Detroit?
Taubman was involved years ago with the Fox deal. He was supposed to have built stores alongside the threatres and statiums. Obviously that when no where. Al has developed some very successful urban malls that have improved the business climate in other cities. Two of his most notable are the City Center project in Columbus and one Creek project in Salt Lake.
City Center did quite well until it started to lose its anchors [[namely Lazarus and Jacobson's). It finally folded and nearly all of it has been ripped down.
City Creek just opened in Salt Lake. Like City center, it too incorporated a lot of older buildings including the old ZCMI department store [[now Macy's). http://www.shopcitycreekcenter.com/
Malls are currently having a hard time as there are fewer and fewer stores that want to anchor them. If Al or Bob Taubman want to come to Detroit, they would need the right set of partners and conditions. I suspect that they would if there was a market, but the market is still not quite there and getting partners is difficult.
They will come out pretty nice when Woodward rail is in place ,where would you put a mall setting in Detroit?
The days of the huge malls are over with ,now it is fancy strip centers of walkable shops.Some are done pretty nice though .
U shaped you park in the center and the shops circle around,so you can kinda picture Woodward in the future with those every couple of miles.
I would not put a Mall downtown. I would however support running downtown retail with a centralized management system so that there are more dependable open times, coordinated marketing, and a security force.
There is currently too much empty retail space as it is. Building more would make it even harder for everyone to turn a profit.
Not downtown but a rather large foot print into Detroitm, Taubmann rehabbed the annex GM Albert Kahn [[can't recall the actual original name) building off Cass and Milwaukee in 2009 to become the A. Alfred Taubman Center for Design Education:
http://www.collegeforcreativestudies...sign-education
Features:
- 350-seat dining hall for students and community members
- Restaurant space for students and visitors
- Art and supply book store
- 300-bed student dormitory
- Detroit Creative Corridor Center
- Valade Family Gallery, a space for CCS alumni, students and local artists
- The Benson and Edith Ford Conference Center, including the 500-seat General Motors Auditorium and meeting rooms
- Tenant space for community businesses or nonprofit organizations
- Tim Hortons Coffee Shop
- 11,200 square foot gymnasium
- 500-car parking structure and 230 spaces of surface parking
- Energy-efficient and sustainable design, construction and operations
- LEED best practices and standards
The center houses:
- Five undergraduate design departments
- Advertising
- Graphic Design
- Interior Design
- Product Design
- Transportation Design
- New Master of Fine Arts programs
- Design
- Transportation Design
- Graduate Design Research Center
- Color and Materials Library
- Continuing Education Programs
- Community Arts Partnerships [[CAP) Program
- The Henry Ford Academy High School: School for Creative Studies
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Yes, I revised my view on this and I agree with you that a mall situation would be a real deadweight on downtown. I used to think that a creative project might spur other business in the center but I like the idea of handling business insertions in existing buildings on an individual basis. I believe that if owners of bldgs in the center of town were helped along by urban planners and other specialists, a solid core of retail concerns could achieve real success. Gilbert's team appears to be taking things slowly to make sure their tenants will be the right hand in glove before signing them on.
I also agree about centralized management and security. The experience of shopping in the city needs to be on a par with the malls and yet engage the clientele on another level. Like I've said before, I think that a coordinated effort at bringing cultural events big and small in busy or unused venues would add an extra punch to the downtown that the malls can barely match. We cant expect a 5 tent circus to be on at all times, but I think that the proper mix of music, visual art and performance art would solidify the experience of the city and bring people together in a non threatening way. The festival management and arts promotion people could have rotating events year round that would complement the festival stages and art venues.
I've been to the Salt Lake City development. It is right by where the Jazz play. Nicely done development. Something similar is not out of the question for Detroit. But I could only see it as a complement to a revived downtown Woodward retail district. More of an endgame if Gilbert can keep the momentum going and pull off his retail plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
I guess beggars can be choosers. In a city that's 40% vacant, where national retailers left the city decades ago, where they plan to convert once dense urban land to farms, ponds, and trees, we can't have a mall. Chicago has malls along Michigan Avenue, one of the most expensive retail districts in the country, but a mall is not good enough for Detroit.
There were never many national retailers downtown. Maybe woolworth's & Brooks Brothers. Back when Detroit's CBD was full it was full of nearly all local stores. National retailers have only become a phenomena at its current scale recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shollin
Comparing Detroit's CBD to Chicago's Miracle Mile is a bit like Comparing a Cadillac CTS-V to a Smart Car. It is rather pointless. Chicago has considerably more wealth and population in and near Downtown.
I see the comparisons to Chicago thrown around this forum all the time. Regardless if Detroit had national retailers in the past, they haven't been here in quite some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner