What was the old SEMTA Plan for Rail Transit?

Hi,

After vigorously researching the people mover there is one thing I found in all of the articles: The People mover was meant to be part of a regional transit system that never was. Now obviously this is true, but none of the articles outline a single plan. Throughout all the articles I've read I've gotten these parts of a plan:

• A Commuter Rail line to Port Huron
• 4 Light Rail Lines radiating from the Downtown area
• A Crosstown Subway down I-94
• A Woodward subway line running underground until McNichols, then running in the median of Woodward
• Commuter Rail to Ann Arbor, Pontiac, Port Huron, Toledo
• A Royal Oak subway under Washington or Main streets

These conflicting description of SEMTA's Rapid Transit Plans confuse me. Even more is this map:
Attachment 30222
And this newspaper:
Attachment 30223
A few questions would have to be: Light Rail or Heavy Rail? How many Commuter Rail lines, and where would they terminate? Once the Rapid Transit/ light rail lines reached downtown, where would they go, or would they run onto the people mover?

So can somebody tell me what the Rapid Transit plan was for Detroit in the 60s/70s/80s?

Thanks,
Confused Armchair Urban Planner

a few years ago later 1980"s or eARLY 1990"S it was SMART Tthat propsed a BT type system called SPEEDLINK-[[I went to all the meetings) it had five routes Gratiot, Van Dyke. Michigan Avenue, & Woodward. it was modeled after the Eugene Oregon System, it would be just like the proposed plan now, the problem was the tri-county couldn't agree, the federal government even had the money for us, of course we lost that funding, just like we did to Grand Rapids now it has rail, paid by us, it was our money but since we cant agree they have it, No transit will work here if you allow cities to opt out,so we cant allow that feature

Damn, could you imagine hearing, "This is Kennedy Square, transfer to all trains at Kennedy Square."

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Damn, could you imagine hearing, "This is Kennedy Square, transfer to all trains at Kennedy Square."

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"This is Roman Gribbs Park station, transfer to Red Line towards Olympic Park"

There never was a unified plan. This is why the Feds never gave us the money to build anymore of the People Mover system.

The people mover was supposed to be the initial seed. Just like M1 rail is supposed to be now. And just like then we still can't get a unified regional transit plan together. Just like the people mover still goes nowhere, the M1 rail will probably go no further.

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Originally Posted by ndavies

There never was a unified plan. This is why the Feds never gave us the money to build anymore of the People Mover system.

The people mover was supposed to be the initial seed. Just like M1 rail is supposed to be now. And just like then we still can't get a unified regional transit plan together. Just like the people mover still goes nowhere, the M1 rail will probably go no further.

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You know there is a vote this fall on the RTA plan?

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Originally Posted by ndavies

There never was a unified plan. This is why the Feds never gave us the money to build anymore of the People Mover system.

The people mover was supposed to be the initial seed. Just like M1 rail is supposed to be now. And just like then we still can't get a unified regional transit plan together. Just like the people mover still goes nowhere, the M1 rail will probably go no further.

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That makes no sense considering RTA has released their plans, will be going on a talking tour, and we will voted on this in November. There was never even a vote. There was never a unified plan by SEMTA like the RTA today. LBP can bemoan all he wants, but in the end no one will listen anymore because this isn't 1980.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

That makes no sense considering RTA has released their plans, will be going on a talking tour, and we will voted on this in November. There was never even a vote. There was never a unified plan by SEMTA like the RTA today. LBP can bemoan all he wants, but in the end no one will listen anymore because this isn't 1980.

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Don't hold your breath for a long-line, comprehensive rail or rapid transit system. What you have now going down Woodward is about as good as it gets....why? Look to Atlanta and St. Louis even Dallas - they have not expanded on their monorail lines already in place.

Detroit's rail line would require so many billions of dollars -- no body would support it. Maybe Gilbert would open up his pocketbook. But you need a thriving city and Detroit is not there yet and probably won't be for another decade. What the city should be doing is contracting the map lines to reflect the current population of less than 1mill.

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Originally Posted by Chicago48

Don't hold your breath for a long-line, comprehensive rail or rapid transit system. What you have now going down Woodward is about as good as it gets....why? Look to Atlanta and St. Louis even Dallas - they have not expanded on their monorail lines already in place.

Detroit's rail line would require so many billions of dollars -- no body would support it. Maybe Gilbert would open up his pocketbook. But you need a thriving city and Detroit is not there yet and probably won't be for another decade. What the city should be doing is contracting the map lines to reflect the current population of less than 1mill.

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Well the RTA plan isn't based on rail, it's based on BRT. The People Mover will never been expanded, in short because it's been discussed here so many times I've lost count, because it's old technology.

And I do believe that streetcar operations could be expanded, especially along urban corridors like Woodward north to Manchester, Jefferson to Alter, or Michigan/Vernor into SW. But it will ONLY happen once the DDOT/RTA can take control of it and properly fund it like a normal transit agency.

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Originally Posted by MicrosoftFan

Attachment 30222

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What makes this ironic is how the "Fort Street Line" never even runs down Fort Street, instead it runs out on Vernor and then turns out to parallel the Conrail track that parallels I-75 out towards Taylor.

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Originally Posted by MSUguy

You know there is a vote this fall on the RTA plan?

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Yes there is. And I don't see a way for it to pass. Nobody is going to vote for a third transit authority when the two we already have can't work together.

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Originally Posted by ndavies

Yes there is. And I don't see a way for it to pass. Nobody is going to vote for a third transit authority when the two we already have can't work together.

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The plan is for the "third" transit agency to absorb the two, DDOT and SMART. I'm not sure AATA is going to remain anonymous or not. That way everything will be coordinated better. The RTA will directly run the BRT/commuter line plan, with DDOT and SMART running their bus lines. The tram line will hopefully be folded into the pack under DDOT.

If people understand this, then they will vote. I've also heard very little opposition to even a general RTA funding need. We want improved transit, we need to fund the RTA. Because then more funding will come from the federal government unlike previously when the feds did not want to give us money because we did not have a regional authority.

I just hope the Transit vote isn't a MetroMoves debacle like in Cincinnati. And to anyone who says Detroit isn't big enough for Rail Transit, St. Louis has like 400,000 people. Cleveland has like 350 and they even have a heavy Rail line

When it come to public regional transit in Metro-Detroit, Area. There less implementation. When Fed spoke to regional transit board about the regional transit proposal, they want to know what's in for us and for the People who live and work there. For as they know Detroit is where they make cars. Is the regional transit proposal benefit the community or your sakes. Will your political leaders in Lansing know about this regional transit plan? Will there be corporate benefactors? How much its going to cost? ect ect... If these required implementations is not confirmed. Then this regional transit plan is dead.

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Originally Posted by MicrosoftFan

I just hope the Transit vote isn't a MetroMoves debacle like in Cincinnati. And to anyone who says Detroit isn't big enough for Rail Transit, St. Louis has like 400,000 people. Cleveland has like 350 and they even have a heavy Rail line

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Ad Sacramento to that list, which has 466,000 people and a light rail system to envy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacram...ansit_District

With the political, economic and racial polarization in our region, I have no faith in regional transit to get past the usual gatekeepers. The 1-mile trolley will be lovely, though.

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Originally Posted by Hypestyles

With the political, economic and racial polarization in our region, I have no faith in regional transit to get past the usual gatekeepers. The 1-mile trolley will be lovely, though.

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Uhhhhh, since when was it still 1986?

And it's a 3.3 mile trolley.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Uhhhhh, since when was it still 1986?

And it's a 3.3 mile trolley.

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I think we are finally in a place where the suburbs and city are ready to work together.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Uhhhhh, since when was it still 1986?

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In 1986 the region was actually more suited for regional transit than today. The older parts of the city/inner suburbs were somewhat denser and more transit-oriented.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

In 1986 the region was actually more suited for regional transit than today. The older parts of the city/inner suburbs were somewhat denser and more transit-oriented.

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I won't disagree with you there, but the political will wasn't there and downtown was dying. The business centers had already moved out to Troy and Southfield. Today, though I think the infrastructure is still in place, the city and inner rings suburbs are more vocal about their support for transit, and we all know, well maybe except for you, that downtown/midtown is a lot more business "vibrant" than it was 20-30 years ago.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

and we all know, well maybe except for you, that downtown/midtown is a lot more business "vibrant" than it was 20-30 years ago.

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Yes, "you" all know this to be "true", but everyone who actually works in the real estate industry knows this is nonsense.

Downtown was much busier 30 years ago, the region was much more centralized, and there were hundreds of thousands of additional residents in the city and inner suburbs. The idea of something like One Detroit Center being built today would be absolutely laughable.

DYes is hardly representative. It's like going to some TigerTalk forum and asking if the Tigers are a good team.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yes, "you" all know this to be "true", but everyone who actually works in the real estate industry knows this is nonsense.

Downtown was much busier 30 years ago, the region was much more centralized, and there were hundreds of thousands of additional residents in the city and inner suburbs. The idea of something like One Detroit Center being built today would be absolutely laughable.

DYes is hardly representative. It's like going to some TigerTalk forum and asking if the Tigers are a good team.

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Despite the FACT it was in decline, most of the stores on Woodward were closed by 1990-95. Anything that remained was nichy and not destination [[ie the wig shops or hearing aid shops).

I'm sure the idea of One Detroit Center back then was laughed at by men not too different from yourself. In fact, the entire plan wasn't even finished because of the decline. And we all know Mr. Madden spent his entire fortune to build 150 W. Jefferson. What a way to go though. And we all know the drain RenCen had on downtown.

Up until Campus Martius and the past 10 years, downtown businessmen and their secretaries drove down at 8 parked, walked into their building from their parking garage never to step outside [[because that would probably mean dealing with a vagrant), and then getting back to their cars at 5 pm to drive on the Lodge or 75 for a half hour getting back to their manicured lawn in Troy or Novi or Bloomfield Hills.

I'm not sure what's nonsense about a CBD that hasn't scene this much foot traffic and development in 30 years.