Can Detroit afford to enforce dedicated lanes for BRT (or LR for that matter)?

Pardon my ignorance but I seriously don't know how the cops are going to enforce this with current staffing. And as a follow up: Does anyone actually expect Metro Detroiters to respect a dedicated lane? Ever seen who is driving in the car pool lane on Michigan ave? No one in this state even knows how to use the left lane on the highways and freeways, they just loiter there at a speed of their choice for miles and miles. Remember the Chrysler marketing tweet guy?

I envision buses just getting caught up in normal traffic thus offering no real advantage for someone like myself with a car [[other than going green and being able to multitask while commuting). It's a shame that an elevated train or bus track can't be done, or John R or some other street being retro fitted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

Pardon my ignorance but It's a shame that an elevated train or bus track can't be done, or John R or some other street being retro fitted.

---

I thought the same thing. After the Downtown <-> New Center exchange, dedicated lanes on Woodward don't seem like the best fit.

It's already like playing a game of reverse frogger on Woodward. I swear some of these people think they are walking on a dirt road in the backwoods of Alabama they way they cross this street.

I would argue that the jaywalking capitol of the world is in front of the 36th District Court. It's where all the cops and law makers gather and yet no one has respect for the rules of the road [[and it's a short block!). The cops also love parking wherever they like there. I guess they could put in traffic cameras but I have a feeling that no one would pay those tickets anyways.

It's hard for me to really excited about BRT unless they have barricaded lanes so that only the buses may enter and leave. The system needs to be designed to make lane enforcement a non-issue, otherwise, the benefits are not nearly as exciting or useful.

I don't expect anything to the level of Bogota's BRT system in scope or size, but I think it's a reasonable expectation in terms of the quality of experience and level of service.

Below is the link to the Bogota, Colombia system. It really is top notch. And even though someone mentioned they're moving to light rail, I can accept that light rail may very well be the right solution in the long run. It's a fiscally [[and politically) unfeasible solution today. What's important is that we just get buy-in from the metro area on the importance of having a serious transit system. The mere fact that travelers landing at DTW have no way to get anywhere is in itself ludicrous.

http://www.streetfilms.org/bus-rapid-transit-bogota/

Also, I wish that we could a better indication of the the political leaders envision for BRT. If it's like the above video, I think I'd use it. If it's just DDOT and SMART buses with a different logo....forget it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

No one in this state even knows how to use the left lane on the highways and freeways, they just loiter there at a speed of their choice for miles and miles.

---

Interesting you mention that.

In Michigan, it is legal to ride in the left lane if the road is 3 lanes or wider in one direction.

So that means people can loiter in the left lane on just about any major roadway in the state.

That said, what speed they decide to drive at in the left lane is another story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 313WX

Interesting you mention that.

In Michigan, it is legal to ride in the left lane if the road is 3 lanes or wider in one direction.

So that means people can loiter in the left lane on just about any major roadway in the state.

That said, what speed they decide to drive at in the left lane is another story.

---

You'll occasionally pass a "Stay Right Except to Pass" sign, though. Is this on the driving test? I know it is in other states. I remember learning this in drivers' ed.

BRT lines HAH! It will be dead as DARTA and Woodward Light Rail. Regional infrastructure growth and jobs, jobs, jobs comes first then we can discuss public transit.

I do know the feds will not give Detroit city government and its transit authorities any more money to new public transit lines until they fix their regional infrastructure. That was the result when Mayor Bing and his friends went the USDOT committee meeting last week. However they will give some money for new busses that D-DOT irresponsibly lost the Coolidge Terminal fire and some money to SMART for couple hybrid busses. THAT'S it for now!

You all come up with new ideal for public transit. Don't just comment on this forum board, take your proposals to transit authorities [[ run by mostly Republicans) and USDOT! They will listen.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

No new transit lines folks. This is the end of the line for now.


For the 99 Percenters and Spirit of Guy Fawkes.

I miss you so, Neda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noise

You'll occasionally pass a "Stay Right Except to Pass" sign, though. Is this on the driving test? I know it is in other states. I remember learning this in drivers' ed.

---

You may find them on 2-lane roads. They may also just be highly recommended suggestions.

But for all legal intents and purposes, there's no such thing as a passing lane on Detroit freeways.

Even technically on 7 Mile [[from Woodward to Chalmers), you can cross over to the other side and pass legally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 313WX

Interesting you mention that.

In Michigan, it is legal to ride in the left lane if the road is 3 lanes or wider in one direction.

So that means people can loiter in the left lane on just about any major roadway in the state.

That said, what speed they decide to drive at in the left lane is another story.

---

That's fascinating and would explain these road hogs. It baffles me why people will match speeds or go slower than people in other lanes without any consideration for traffic. 75 North after 5 PM is faster in the center lane for some unknown reason. I remember in the early 90's being taught it was a passing lane and drivers in other state seem to treat it as such.

It's a point that's relevant to the dedicated lane question because it shows how inconsiderate Metro drivers can be. 696 at Woodward where drivers speed up on the service drive to jump the line and get on the freeway, lane closures where people speed up to cut the line, people in unsafe vehicles on the freeway, blocking drive ways at red lights... These things all seem to be more common in Michigan than out.

It's not just the Metro area, folks. Here in the DC area, the left-lane loungers and all the things Enduro mentioned are the norm. We consistently have among the worst traffic here and - I would argue - the worst drivers. Don't even get me started on gaper's blocks, misuse of HOV lanes, and delays caused by dbags texting on cellphones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

...
75 North after 5 PM is faster in the center lane for some unknown reason.
...

---

I've noted this as well. I blame it on the fact that the 'passing lane' on the left is occupied by more aggressive drivers who tend to drive closer together [[tend to tailgate). This results in more 'ripples' in traffic when someone has to tap their brakes -- makes for less 'flow'. [[Not a very scientific explanation, but I do know best speeds are accomplished when no distruptions occur. But maybe I just like that the most aggressive drivers are receiving their 'punishment' -- they don't tend to get there as fast.)

When there is talk of dedicated lanes, does this mean that a whole new lane will be built? Will these dedicated lanes be barricaded as Corktownyuppie asks? Either way, I see the whole process as a huge nightmare for anybody commuting into, or through, Detroit.

All the politically connected firms are just road-building companies. They know how to lay rebar, do formwork and pour concrete, but they don't have the technical skills to build, say, a railbed, lay rails and string wire and signaling. That kind of job has too much work. The politically connected companies just want to lay concrete and cash the check.

So, naturally, this bus project is much more in line with the politically connected contractors' view of things. They would love to build concrete berms around the right of way. It will be ugly, they will be abused. They will not be large enough to accommodate people waiting for a bus, but they won't be small enough so that people won't trip over them and kill themselves. But think about it. When you buy your politician, do you want him to get federal grants that will require people to come in from out of state and do a job you can't or won't? Or to push that money to small start-ups who want to develop those real skills? Nonsense! If you can't buy politicians and demand they give you make-work so you can cash checks, what's the point of buying them in the first place?

So, yes, I expect that if this hifalutin bus system ever gets built, it'll have miles and miles of ugly, expensive berms that will have to be torn out when the system fails and we finally replace it, at great cost, with light rail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

The mere fact that travelers landing at DTW have no way to get anywhere is in itself ludicrous.

---

You sure? This is how you get to Cobo
Fairlane
Ann Arbor, Jackson, Lansing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

You sure? This is how you get to Cobo
Fairlane
Ann Arbor, Jackson, Lansing

---

Terrific. That wonderful service will set you back a mere $40 each way to get from DTW to Ann Arbor. You might as well rent a car.

In the meantime, one can get from EWR to Manhattan for $15 on NJ Transit. Or PHL to Center City for $6 on SEPTA Regional Rail. Or BWI to Capitol Hill for $6 on MARC.

Yet Detroit wonders why it's not competitive....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

Pardon my ignorance but I seriously don't know how the cops are going to enforce this with current staffing.

---

You put a camera on the front of the bus. If someone is in front of the bus in one of the BRT lanes, it snaps a picture of their license plate and they are mailed a ticket. And/or you could just have stationary cameras set up doing the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

Pardon my ignorance but I seriously don't know how the cops are going to enforce this with current staffing. And as a follow up: Does anyone actually expect Metro Detroiters to respect a dedicated lane? Ever seen who is driving in the car pool lane on Michigan ave? No one in this state even knows how to use the left lane on the highways and freeways, they just loiter there at a speed of their choice for miles and miles. Remember the Chrysler marketing tweet guy?

I envision buses just getting caught up in normal traffic thus offering no real advantage for someone like myself with a car [[other than going green and being able to multitask while commuting). It's a shame that an elevated train or bus track can't be done, or John R or some other street being retro fitted.

---

No proposal out and people are already speculating about mis-use of the lanes??

If it's designed and constructed properly, there's concrete curbs and bollards to prevent traffic from cutting into the lane. I suppose you could try turning into one, but not without damaging your car. Usually you'd have to merge into one, which involves cutting across lanes in the middle of an intersection.

Usually the cheapest done dedicated bus lanes [[for standard bus and BRT) have the entire concrete surface painted red.
http://patterncities.com/wp-content/...n-BRT-Lane.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolverine

No proposal out and people are already speculating about mis-use of the lanes??

If it's designed and constructed properly, there's concrete curbs and bollards to prevent traffic from cutting into the lane. I suppose you could try turning into one, but not without damaging your car. Usually you'd have to merge into one, which involves cutting across lanes in the middle of an intersection.

Usually the cheapest done dedicated bus lanes [[for standard bus and BRT) have the entire concrete surface painted red.
http://patterncities.com/wp-content/...n-BRT-Lane.jpg

---

With all due respect, how long have you lived in the metro area? Mine is a legitimate question. People here are not respectful of rules of the road. Michigan Ave's commuter lane isn't enforced or respected. Anything goes from jaywalking to red light running to drinking beer from the trunk of your car in a left hand turn lane. If you do get busted you show up in court and odds are you'll walk because the officer cannot make the hearing. Around the city it's no better with aggressive and inconsiderate drivers cutting through anything paved and cutting off each other to jockey for a position that earns them mere seconds of an edge.

And a more serious question about the barriers: How do the buses eventually turn around without damaging the bus or do they just go the other way when they reach the end of their route?

I'm honestly trying to be open minded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

Mine is a legitimate question. People here are not respectful of rules of the road. Michigan Ave's commuter lane isn't enforced or respected.

---

Michigan Avenue's commuter lane isn't legally enforceable. The law that regulated commuter lanes in Michigan was specifically written to apply to only that road and only for the duration of the "gateway project". Nobody enforces it now because nobody can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

And a more serious question about the barriers: How do the buses eventually turn around without damaging the bus or do they just go the other way when they reach the end of their route?

---

A turnaround loop is built in to the system, much the way it was done with streetcars many years ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

With all due respect, how long have you lived in the metro area? Mine is a legitimate question. People here are not respectful of rules of the road. Michigan Ave's commuter lane isn't enforced or respected. Anything goes from jaywalking to red light running to drinking beer from the trunk of your car in a left hand turn lane. If you do get busted you show up in court and odds are you'll walk because the officer cannot make the hearing. Around the city it's no better with aggressive and inconsiderate drivers cutting through anything paved and cutting off each other to jockey for a position that earns them mere seconds of an edge.

And a more serious question about the barriers: How do the buses eventually turn around without damaging the bus or do they just go the other way when they reach the end of their route?

I'm honestly trying to be open minded.

---

Understandable but without even knowing what the proposed brt will look like we can't say for sure what drivers may do.

A most extreme measure would be mechanical bollards that raise and lower, but they are very expensive. I haven't driven in Detroit regularly for 3 years but unless things have changed since, I think 99.999% of drivers will avoid the busway. If they don't..welll okay at the next intersection they'll get a very long red light until the next bus comes.


The BRT buses usually have a turnaround area or depart the busway into a transit center. The vehicles are basically fancier articulated buses. Usually you can't turn into a separated busway from a side street because there is no turning radius provided on the curbs since bus traffic in that lane is always going straight.

I never respect the commuter lane on Michigan Ave when there's only one regular lane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enduro

That's fascinating and would explain these road hogs. It baffles me why people will match speeds or go slower than people in other lanes without any consideration for traffic. 75 North after 5 PM is faster in the center lane for some unknown reason. I remember in the early 90's being taught it was a passing lane and drivers in other state seem to treat it as such.

It's a point that's relevant to the dedicated lane question because it shows how inconsiderate Metro drivers can be. 696 at Woodward where drivers speed up on the service drive to jump the line and get on the freeway, lane closures where people speed up to cut the line, people in unsafe vehicles on the freeway, blocking drive ways at red lights... These things all seem to be more common in Michigan than out.

---

I've lived in Ohio and I drive south on I-75 from Detroit everyday...I see more Ohio drivers blocking the left lane, honestly.

From my perspective, it's more about common sense and courtesy. Stay out of my way and I'll stay out of yours. Why are you more important than everyone else?

Install these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCSsope5vOA

Quote:

---

The mere fact that travelers landing at DTW have no way to get anywhere is in itself ludicrous.

---

That statement is ludicrous.
The place is crawling with taxicabs and limo services. Anyone flying into a city without, at least, enough dough to grab a cab to their point of destination is a damned fool who should have stayed where they were. C'mon.