2017-18 Detroit Red Wings -- thoughts.

Last night as I sat in my comfortable Henderson, Nevada, home, I watched the Vegas Golden Knights trounce the Red Wings, 4 - 0. Being a formerly loyal Wings fan, I had real mixed emotions watching the game, but found myself cheering for my adopted home team, on it's way to the playoffs.

That bullshit aside, I was absolutely amazed to see all the empty seats at the Wings arena. Far more empty than occupied. I suspect many of them were actually paid for by season ticket holders, but it still was disturbing. Are Red Wings fans really 'fair weather' fans? The discussion is now open. I'd love to hear your comments.

Uh....any thoughts about the Vegas Golden Knights also appreciated.............. :)

I don't think it is correct in calling Wings fans fair weather. When the team is close to competitive people show up to cheer them on. When they were in the midst of their playoff streak and really only on the periphery of Cup contention people still cheered them on. What you are seeing is what happens when it costs an arm and a leg to see live sports and the team is garbage. Who is gonna shell out money to see a team where the most exciting part about them is what they may do in the draft?

I agree on the expense. They have turned sports venues into a luxury instead of recreation. And yes the team sucks now. To think just a few years ago the playoffs were so awesome to watch! The nerves of watching a game was fun!

Yes, it's stupidly expensive and I'll never bother. But Wings, Pistons and Tigers fans are all fair weather. Lions are the only one who for some crazy reason always have constant passionate fans.

The Red Wings have had the misfortune to move into their new arena, and sharply raise their prices, at the very time when their 20+ years of being a contender have come to an end. And the Wings and Pistons both have the problem that not only are their teams pretty bad, but they are also mostly unexciting with no crowd-exciting stars. Boring bad teams + much higher prices = lots of empty seats.

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Originally Posted by stinkytofu

Yes, it's stupidly expensive and I'll never bother. But Wings, Pistons and Tigers fans are all fair weather. Lions are the only one who for some crazy reason always have constant passionate fans.

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Wings have been top five in attendance for 25 years, pretty hard to call them fair weather.

Detroit fans are like any other fans in any other city that pay to watch a quality product. Having spent most of my adult life outside Detroit and with other fans, I'd say we rank right near the top in fandom. Tigers fans are particularly good, although Detroit fans in general are pessimistic. Wings were always the team we had optimism about, they are just rebuilding now. They have some good pieces and are loading up on draft picks. They'll be fine.

According to ESPN, the Wings have sold out every single game this season. Yeah ok. I don't trust published attendance numbers for one second.

The team stinks, tickets are too expensive, and I think both the Wings and Pistons sold a ton of tickets to corporations and brokers. There's no demand to see these teams at all, so no one shows up [[but the tickets are still counted as sold and sit in the hands of some third party reseller or you company's administrative assistant).

I'd say Detroit sports fans aren't that great. With the exception of the NFL [[which has only 8 home games, tailgate culture and its the most popular sport), Detroit sports fans only support a winning team. The years after Comerica Park opened and the team was bad, that place was empty as well. The Pistons haven't drawn a good crowd since 2008 and the Wings are finding out that putting out a bad team isn't going to cut it, despite all the history and blabbing on about "Hockeytown"

I don't trust Ken Holland to make any decisions for the Wings anymore, whether it be thru the draft or, especially, free agents. And unfortunately Blashill is right with him. After watching Larkin blow right by his own net and not so much even trying to hold someones hand yet alone make a play, and Mantha aimlessly stand there 20 feet away and watch Marchand have all the time in the world in overtime the other night v. Boston, I'm convinced Blashill is a good low level head coach and not much else.

As for the arena, a professional sound engineer would be a good start, as the sound system blares at you before the game and between plays with zero balance or volume control. I cannot take my 4 year old there yet because of that and my dad found it highly irritating, along with the "older" members of the crowd who had their fingers in their ears. And it wasn't limited to the Mezzanine. Secondly, while the gondola seating may be cool, what that has done has blocked out everyone's view from the upper deck cheap seats of the entire arena except for the ice. It's a horrible, HORRIBLE design. Thirdly, while people complain about parking at 40 bucks, I was always in the crowd that walked 1/2 a mile thru the habitrails or Cobo to get to the Joe and, for me, parking at the Majestic or Union Street and walking to the new rink is quite a treat, but for the other 10 thousand that used to park in the Joe Louis parking garage, a walk for them down Woodward or thru the "Cass Corridor" [[hardly that anymore) instills fear and peril, to which I say screw those fans and stay the ef home.

And guess what, I don't know if hockey is on the radar of the younger crowd. I used to love skating in leagues where the early games were at 10 oclock on a weekday. Now we're starting at 8, so there's definitely a loss of at least 10 hours a week per rink of teams renting the ice, and places like Fraser have five rinks, so do the math, [[I'll leave out how Little Ceasars and the Michigan Amateur Hockey Association have ruined amateur hockey in Michigan). Add to this Gary Bettman has watered down the game so much [[Phoenix, Florida panthers still have a team why?), and frankly, the rink is too small for these huge guys for me to enjoy watching unless you're sitting in the first 10 rows [[I miss Pavel Datsyuk, to be sure).

And they suck. Boo Wings.

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Originally Posted by EGrant

According to ESPN, the Wings have sold out every single game this season. Yeah ok. I don't trust published attendance numbers for one second.

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You should have just stopped here, you're out of your bubble of expertise. Obviously...

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Originally Posted by stinkytofu

Yes, it's stupidly expensive and I'll never bother. But Wings, Pistons and Tigers fans are all fair weather. Lions are the only one who for some crazy reason always have constant passionate fans.

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How much does a ticket cost? I honestly wouldn't know, so could somebody inform me.

Is Detroit really Hockey Town? I didn't see any real signs of it outside the expected places like Joe Louis Arena.

I've heard it's almost impossible for a casual sports fan to get tickets to a hockey game in Toronto because the locals snap up season tickets rather than doing a game by game visit. That makes me wonder about the accuracy of Detroit's 'Hockey Town' moniker.

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Originally Posted by Hamtragedy

I don't trust Ken Holland to make any decisions for the Wings anymore, whether it be thru the draft or, especially, free agents. And unfortunately Blashill is right with him. After watching Larkin blow right by his own net and not so much even trying to hold someones hand yet alone make a play, and Mantha aimlessly stand there 20 feet away and watch Marchand have all the time in the world in overtime the other night v. Boston, I'm convinced Blashill is a good low level head coach and not much else.

As for the arena, a professional sound engineer would be a good start, as the sound system blares at you before the game and between plays with zero balance or volume control. I cannot take my 4 year old there yet because of that and my dad found it highly irritating, along with the "older" members of the crowd who had their fingers in their ears. And it wasn't limited to the Mezzanine. Secondly, while the gondola seating may be cool, what that has done has blocked out everyone's view from the upper deck cheap seats of the entire arena except for the ice. It's a horrible, HORRIBLE design. Thirdly, while people complain about parking at 40 bucks, I was always in the crowd that walked 1/2 a mile thru the habitrails or Cobo to get to the Joe and, for me, parking at the Majestic or Union Street and walking to the new rink is quite a treat, but for the other 10 thousand that used to park in the Joe Louis parking garage, a walk for them down Woodward or thru the "Cass Corridor" [[hardly that anymore) instills fear and peril, to which I say screw those fans and stay the ef home.

And guess what, I don't know if hockey is on the radar of the younger crowd. I used to love skating in leagues where the early games were at 10 oclock on a weekday. Now we're starting at 8, so there's definitely a loss of at least 10 hours a week per rink of teams renting the ice, and places like Fraser have five rinks, so do the math, [[I'll leave out how Little Ceasars and the Michigan Amateur Hockey Association have ruined amateur hockey in Michigan). Add to this Gary Bettman has watered down the game so much [[Phoenix, Florida panthers still have a team why?), and frankly, the rink is too small for these huge guys for me to enjoy watching unless you're sitting in the first 10 rows [[I miss Pavel Datsyuk, to be sure).

And they suck. Boo Wings.

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Ham makes lots of good points here.

I fully agree about the noise at Wings games. During every stoppage of play, media timeout and intermission, the arena is blasted with music, commercials and PA announcements that are as loud as a rock concert. The sound level is the worst under the gondola. The speakers are only a few feet above spectators' heads. And yes, I did see people holding their ears. Throughout the arena, you cannot hold a conversation with the person sitting next to you unless you do it while the puck is in play. It's very annoying and detracts from the experience.

Also agree about the rink size. NHL is becoming a grinder league. There isn't enough room for players with puck skills. Add in the massive goalie equipment and it's a wonder anybody can score at all.

Yet I still watch. Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Lombaowski

You should have just stopped here, you're out of your bubble of expertise. Obviously...

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Your point? I used the attendance numbers from ESPN provided from the teams, but here's another source if you don't trust ESPN's statistics. The Wings are reporting 100% attendance, but clearly, they are not filling up the arenas, unless half the Wings fans dress up exactly like an empty seat.

Anyway, the upper deck sounded cool in concept [[gondola seating, steep grade, etc.) but in practice, it has created a cramped, vertigo-inducing environment where the giant gondola looms over fans and makes you feel like you're in the roof or something. Lower bowl is fantastic and the concourses are the best in sports, but the upper bowl isn't worth any price of admission.

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Originally Posted by Ray1936

Last night as I sat in my comfortable Henderson, Nevada, home, I watched the Vegas Golden Knights trounce the Red Wings, 4 - 0. Being a formerly loyal Wings fan, I had real mixed emotions watching the game, but found myself cheering for my adopted home team, on it's way to the playoffs.

That bullshit aside, I was absolutely amazed to see all the empty seats at the Wings arena. Far more empty than occupied. I suspect many of them were actually paid for by season ticket holders, but it still was disturbing. Are Red Wings fans really 'fair weather' fans? The discussion is now open. I'd love to hear your comments.

Uh....any thoughts about the Vegas Golden Knights also appreciated.............. :)

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Ray, I think you're right about the empty seats. I think it is season ticket holders who are just not showing up. Tickets available to the public seem to run around 2,000/game and there are a lot more empty seats than that. Prices on stub hub and elsewhere, which I presume are primarily season tickets, are lower than prior seasons.

I laughed earlier in the season when the announcers said the seats were empty because the fans were scouting out the new arena. That's on a par with comments like the Red Wings can still make the playoffs. The emptiness has been mentioned in several national columns about the Red Wings. I've watched most of the games this season on NHL Center Ice, and the largest crowds are when Toronto, Columbus and Chicago fans show up.

As for Vegas, they are an entertaining team. They're always pressuring opponents, they're fast and play smart. I don't know how far they'll go in the playoffs but I hope Tatar scores a bunch of goals.

The Wings just need to keep losing. I'll take 2-3 years of pain and suffering for high end draft picks and dumping all of these 45 year no trade clause contracts. Then again, with Holland at the helm, who knows if it even pans out. He really has lost my faith. He could build a team with a blank checkbook and a fan as the owner, but the salary cap hasn't been good to him. Yes, I know, 08' they won the cup and 09' were within 1 game of it. But those teams were built pre-cap and still had the likes of Lidstrom, Chelios, and in their prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall. The contracts he's doled out since then are questionable as best, inexcusable in a lot of cases.

You also need to watch them play against a team like Las Vegas, Edmonton, NJ, Tampa. Those teams are in track meets, they are fun to watch, and they score. The Wings don't have enough talent to play with those teams, let alone even score 3 goals a game. And man oh man are they a bore to watch. I'm a huge hockey fan, but these past few years save for a few dozen games have been really hard to watch.

Been playing and watching hockey all my life and I'm saddened by the current state of affairs. First off the new rules under basketball man Gary Bettman are a joke. How many times do you hear Mickey Redmond say "that's not hockey". I have not been to the LCA and not sure when I will try it. As mentioned above I can't stand all the needless noise of canned music during every stoppage of play. As for the empty seats, I've heard from friends that have gone that a good portion of the crowd are there, they're just hanging in all the bars and restaurants and not in their seats.

Love what our boy Gallant is doing with Vegas. Wish we would have hired him.

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Originally Posted by mikeg19

The Wings just need to keep losing. I'll take 2-3 years of pain and suffering for high end draft picks and dumping all of these 45 year no trade clause contracts. Then again, with Holland at the helm, who knows if it even pans out. He really has lost my faith. He could build a team with a blank checkbook and a fan as the owner, but the salary cap hasn't been good to him. Yes, I know, 08' they won the cup and 09' were within 1 game of it. But those teams were built pre-cap and still had the likes of Lidstrom, Chelios, and in their prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall. The contracts he's doled out since then are questionable as best, inexcusable in a lot of cases.

You also need to watch them play against a team like Las Vegas, Edmonton, NJ, Tampa. Those teams are in track meets, they are fun to watch, and they score. The Wings don't have enough talent to play with those teams, let alone even score 3 goals a game. And man oh man are they a bore to watch. I'm a huge hockey fan, but these past few years save for a few dozen games have been really hard to watch.

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Edmonton has been picking in the top ten, and often #1 for a decade. They are just terrible trading players like Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle for almost nothing.

The next draft has no impact players, the one in 2019 is better but no Connor McDavid as of now. Teams have to draft the top well but also have tons of depth, which Detroit has already compiled. They need one really big hit in the draft, and tanking isn't the best way to get there all the time.

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Originally Posted by Lombaowski

Edmonton has been picking in the top ten, and often #1 for a decade. They are just terrible trading players like Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle for almost nothing.

The next draft has no impact players, the one in 2019 is better but no Connor McDavid as of now. Teams have to draft the top well but also have tons of depth, which Detroit has already compiled. They need one really big hit in the draft, and tanking isn't the best way to get there all the time.

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Yea, and who is running Edmonton? Exactly why I said I don't trust Holland to turn this thing around. You can have a million 1st round picks but without proper scouting and team building [[like Edmonton) that's what happens.

And obviously you don't follow hockey that closely because there's a guy named Rasmus Dahlin that's being hailed as the concensus number 1 pick and a generational talent the likes of Erik Karlsson. Not to mention a couple snipers in the top 5 that will be legit first liners.

If Detroit continues to lose, they will have a great chance at picking first [[Dahlin). That pick will determine if the Red Wings are contenders in 2-4 years rather than 4-6 years. The talent gap for jumping in is pretty large in this draft.

I've read that if Holland moves on, there's a chance Draper or Martin could jump in as GM.

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Originally Posted by Zads07

If Detroit continues to lose, they will have a great chance at picking first [[Dahlin). That pick will determine if the Red Wings are contenders in 2-4 years rather than 4-6 years. The talent gap for jumping in is pretty large in this draft.

I've read that if Holland moves on, there's a chance Draper or Martin could jump in as GM.

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While I don't think the Wings will have the worst record this season, the team with the worst record has never had the first pick since the lottery was revised 5 years ago.

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Originally Posted by jiminnm

While I don't think the Wings will have the worst record this season, the team with the worst record has never had the first pick since the lottery was revised 5 years ago.

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Very true. Don't need to be the worst, but if you're in that top 3-4 team group of bad you've done your job and positioned yourself for pretty good odds. Just keep losing.

The Sedin twins are retiring at the end of this season, and in the process freeing up cap space for the Canucks. Should Zetterberg do the same? He's 37 as are the Sedin's but he has a cup ring and they don't.

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Originally Posted by Downriviera

The Sedin twins are retiring at the end of this season, and in the process freeing up cap space for the Canucks. Should Zetterberg do the same? He's 37 as are the Sedin's but he has a cup ring and they don't.

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I don't think he's going anywhere, at least for another year. It's been 3 years since his back surgery and he has played almost every game the past few seasons. As long as he's healthy he will play. Plus, he's still an effective player and a good leader. He's potted over 50 points and is second on the team. He's slowed down no doubt, but he's a smart player that can make up for that. I think at this point he's going year by year, although I do not expect him to live out the extent of his remaining 3 year contract.

I think it is important to have Zetterberg wearing the C for 1 more year, if not 2. Sure he is older and slower, but he is the glue that holds anything together at this point. The real fight they have showed in the last few weeks can be attributed to leadership. We are going to need a lot of that to get through this rebuilding program.

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Originally Posted by Downriviera

The Sedin twins are retiring at the end of this season, and in the process freeing up cap space for the Canucks. Should Zetterberg do the same? He's 37 as are the Sedin's but he has a cup ring and they don't.

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The NHL has a host of rules about player contract lengths, allocations of salary to the cap, effect of retirements and when they occur, age at contract signing, etc.

The Sedins free cap space because they are at the end of their contract extensions. So their contracts were fulfilled.

Zetterburg, however, has 2-3 years left on his contract. If he retires, some portion of remaining contract will be allocated against the cap over the remaining years due the length of his contract and his age when it was signed. Also, contract salaries in Z's contract were front end loaded, meaning that he was paid more in the early years and less in later years. I think his final year salary is only $1 million. For cap purposes, though, the total contract payout is spread evenly over the term. That means his cap hit is $5 or so million/year. The real question is whether or not he will think it worthwhile to play when his pay is relatively low compared to his prior pay and when first year players get $600K.

This is a little [[or a lot) off topic but I’m really pulling for Vegas to win the cup this year. I know it probably won’t happen but it would be such a smack in the face to the old guard of the league for a first year expansion team to go all the way. I’d love to see it.