There is no argument against Roger Penske as Detroit booster. But if he is really committed to the city, why not move Penske's Corporate HQ downtown? As it currently stands, Penske operates out of Bloomfield Hills. I guess this is a classic case of “if you’re going to talk the talk, walk the walk”.
By the way, would anyone know how many people are employed at the Penske HQ?
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkelly1986
Same with Hantz Group. They've brought up the entire east side for pennies on the dollar yet they can't even move their HQ from Southfield to downtown.
I'm betting a lot of the people who work there live out there. Penske may be a forward-thinking guy, but I bet a lot of his employees would be pissy about having to drive downtown, park downtown, and drive home each day.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkelly1986
Heck, it may not be such a bad thing for now. Until we have a serious mass transit system, I'm a little wary of having every business locate downtown, because it'll mean a profusion of parking garages perhaps threatening the very architecture that has such value.
Penske emerged as a "Detroit Booster" about ten years ago when he took the helm [[at Dennis Archer's behest) as Chairman of the Detroit Super Bowl Host Committee.
I believe that Penske HQ pre-dates that era.
So, should he move now that he has decided to take on Detroit-centric projects suchas the Clean Downtown effort that he funded single-handly for years when the City could not afford a clean Downtown and neglected the streetscapes? I guess if he has money to burn. Re-locating corporate offices even on a very small scale is expensive, time-consuming, eating up a lot of staff time on non-core work.
As to John Hantz - I wonder how many employees he has. His Hantz Woodlands has always had offices and operations in Detroit. And Hantz himself famously lives in Indian Village.
What is the pont of such a discussion? is it to somehow infer that Detroit Boosters don't/won't put their money where their mouths are?
I thought it was pretty obvious that this was the point of this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMAP
One can still be a Detroit booster and not work or live in Downtown Detroit. In the real world, Metro Detroit is Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
And, agreed; I don't think it's a great mystery why a bunch of executives would prefer to work in Bloomfield Hills instead of Downtown Detroit. For one, they live five minutes away. Throw in free parking, no city income tax, no major hassles, and it's a big advantage.
But the big one is you have a much better quality of life if you work near where you live, and rich folks live on Lone Pine Road, not W. Grand Blvd.
So Metro Detroit is chipping in on Detroit's $14B debt? Great news.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Yes, they are. Detroit is a net receiver jurisdiction. The net donor jurisdictions are subsidizing Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Well, true, but most of us think of a brisk walk or bike ride through a lively neighborhood to get to work in five minutes, not traveling like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
http://cdn4.chipchick.com/wp-content.../Jetsons10.png
Unless you look at all the taxes and fees that Detroiters pay. And also include the money that is extracted from Detroit privately. That provides a better view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I know this is wasted on you, though. :)
In some areas, maybe, but Michigan weather is horrible most of the year, and we love our cars, so probably no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
If by "most of us" you mean posters on this board...sure. However as to the 5 million metro area, those who think a brisk walk through a lively neighborhood to get to work is preferable to their current situation, or even a priority to them is a tiny and pretty much irrelevant minority. And they probably already do live that way in the rare areas where it's possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Bham, how somebody can often be so correct and insightful, and just as easily surrender without objection to the mediocre status quo, is truly amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Right, the weather is stupendous in Brooklyn. That's why people walk several blocks to the subway, hop on, transfer in the city, and walk several blocks through Manhattan. That and they all hate cars. *eyeroll*
Well, thanks for pointing out some language that should have been more specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Nationally, when we discuss a trend of people wanting to live near where they work, we aren't talking about them living two exits away on the wonderful freeway. We really aren't. Most of the time, that national conversation about living near where we work goes hand in hand with walkability, bikability and density.
Truly, only in yahoo Michigan would we consider living near where we work to being "five minutes [by car] away" ... :)
And that "tiny and pretty much irrelevant minority" is tiny because it's well educated, up-to-date and ... moving to real cities that aren't stuck with the hopeless job of building the world of 1961 over and over again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
NYC is a huge outlier, IMO, and I wouldn't use it to really prove anything re. Michigan commuting patterns. It's just too different to anywhere else in the U.S.
And the weather really is crappier in Michigan, especially when combined with the fact that there are few pedestrians, so businesses don't clean the sidwalk, so it's dangerous to walk down the sidewalk following a Michigan snowstorm.
I remember attending something at the Fox last year on a Sunday afternoon, well after a small snowfall. Afterwards, we walked to a restaurant on Grand Circus Park, following Woodward, and the street was a complete mess and almost unwalkable. There was no evidence of salt anywhere. and this was our grandest avenue, in the most important section, many hours after the snowfall, and the lone pedestrians are walking in the street.
Sure, except if we look at the Metros that added the most people in the country, they are some of the most sprawled out places in the country. Drop a quarter million new jobs in Detroit and lets see what happens to that out migration trend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Also, to bham's point...-Census BureauQuote:
Another trend that persisted: nearly all of the fastest-growing metro areas from 2010 to 2011 [[46 of 50) were located either entirely or partially in the South or West.
Detroit was also once one of the fastest-growing, sprawling metro areas. Houston, Phoenix, etc. are the next Detroit. Hardly enviable long-term, but undeniably great fun while it lasts. One day they'll wonder how they could've built all those winding, identical suburbs in the middle of a giant desert. Couldn't those idiots see how unsustainable it was? Then will come the inevitable answer: "We didn't know any better. Everyone was doing it. How were we supposed to know? The politicians - everyone - promised us it was OK."
As for this Penske fella, you would think a guy whose entire lifeblood is based on car sales, rentals and racing would be looking for a little more of a walkable neighborhood.:confused:
I'd imagine a Belle Isle penthouse next to the permanent race track would suit him just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by 401don
The WORLD is a huge outlier in your opinion. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Kind of hard to argue with that last point when the whole region is hostile to investing in cities and would rather keep tearing up greenfield like gas was still 95 cents a gallon.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
So correlation equals causation?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Go ahead. Be my guest, kick and scream and resist the future until metro Detroit is a forgotten backwater. I really don't care anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
And all these new areas are building light rail and densifying their core city neighborhoods. Houston's downtown and midtown areas are growing like gangbusters, and the city has a long term plan for light rail across the entire city. Meanwhile, Detroit still lives in 1961, as Detroitnerd said.
What about security and heath and welfare concerns? What happens in Downtown Detroit in a serious 911 condition? Are there ladder trucks for a fire? Are there adequate EMS for a major disaster? Anyone working Downtown is taking a huge risk. Convincing workers to move Downtown for work has to be a major task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gameguy56
Downtown Houston is in the same sad shape as Detroit, maybe worse. Main Street is empty, moreso than Woodward, and the last remaining retail [[the Macys) is closing.
And Houston is incredibly sprawly. It's even sprawlier than Metro Detroit, and they're building subdivisions like gangbusters. Haven't seen much urban growth there, and I'm down there a few times a year.
Well, that may be, but those who are "well educated, up-to-date and ... moving to real cities" in fact arent. Some of them are moving to NYC, but the vast majority are moving to Dallas, Houston, Phoneix, and Arlington..etc.Quote:
Kind of hard to argue with that last point when the whole region is hostile to investing in cities and would rather keep tearing up greenfield like gas was still 95 cents a gallon.
Um. no. but in this instance, you rejected Bham's posit that Detroit's weather has something to do with people's desire not to want to walk everywhere. I simply pointed out that per the census. the vast majority of the growth in metro areas in this country are in more temperate climates in the south and west.Quote:
So correlation equals causation?
.Quote:
Go ahead. Be my guest, kick and scream and resist the future until metro Detroit is a forgotten backwater. I really don't care anymore
I don't think you quite understand my point. I'm not anti transit or pro sprawl. We should have comprehensive, multi modal transit. however, I'm just saying that is a minority position here and if migration trends are to be believed .. a minority position nationally when it comes to where people choose to live. If walkability and mass transit were real priority for most people, then Dallas/Ft Worth would be a very different place. Chicago wouldn't be losing population, Miami would be shrinking, LA would be empty, and so would Phoenix.
People go where the jobs are and all else is secondary.
That may or may not be true for the same reason, however, you've made my point for me. None if it EXISTS NOW. Houston has had their one rail line running one route since the 80s. so, for the person making the choice, they're choosing the same sprawl. Except one is in a nicer climate and likely has a job there.Quote:
Originally Posted by gameguy56
Okay, be sure to give the bankruptcy judge that bit of information when Detroit files.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
You overstate things. Some are moving to those places, the vast majority? It looks like a pretty wide spectrum, sun and rain, cold and heat. But what you can draw from this map is that people are leaving Detroit and going to ... mostly other cities. In fact, the one place they seem to be moving to Detroit from is Virginia Beach, hardly a major city with bad weather and oppressive transit.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/04/mig...nties-map.html
What don't we offer here that they do in New York and San Francisco? In Boston and Washington, D.C.? In Portland and Seattle? In Chicago and Philadelphia? Just a thought. As you were, Bailey.
I rejected it because people don't freak out about walking several blocks to a subway in New York. Because, frankly, New Yorkers aren't provincial. And it's correct to reject correlative information as causative. Furthermore, do these theories seem to be borne out by the Forbes map?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
People go where the jobs are is partly true. There are plenty of jobs in Alaska. And yet women overwhelmingly choose not to go there. And young men will go, but only half the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
There are jobs in California. But also a high cost of living that keeps people limited in the kind of home they can buy.
There are jobs in New York City. But to pay to educate your family in private school is a significant cost that will not attract a lot of people who have children unless they're top earners.
Studies show that the better educated, better qualified and more creative young people are, the more likely they are to pick the kind of environment they want and then either find opportunities there or make their own once they get there.
Therefore, we should be attracting people who like all four seasons, are not intimidated by a few months of snow, gladly trade it for the sunshine and nearby recreational opportunities and vibrant urban life, with choices ranging from upscale Birmingham to accessible Ferndale to the Midtown bubble and grittier locales in between.
The point is, when you're a region, you try to play it smart. If having a dense part of town that is served by transit slows the outflow of educated young people and draws people looking to get in on the ground floor, that's a strength. How well are we doing by offering exclusively suburban environments? How is that going to pay off for us? We already have probably 10 years' worth of bigfoot homes to sell and a generation graduating from college with meager savings and heavy debt waiting for a recovery that seems to recede into the future. Who is going to pay for these homes at $300K a pop and pump $6 a gallon gas into their cars to drive to jobs?
As smart businesspeople know, you want to be slightly ahead of that curve. If businesspeople only invested in stuff that everybody else was doing, what progress would there be? You've got to get with the times.
Think of Carl's Chop House. That place was in business forever, right? Why did it close? The model was so successful, right? Three martini business lunches, corporate accounts, and everybody loves red meat, right?
Well, times changed, and Carl's didn't. Corporate accounts dwindled, business lunches were more likely to be monitored by bean-counters, drinking on the job became prohibited by a lot of employee manuals and, frankly, people started lunching lighter, not wanting to get all logy from eating a steak for lunch.
The way I see it, metro Detroit is like Carl's. If Carl's wants to survive, it should change. Maybe not drastically, but maybe Carl's should expand a bit, offer a sunlit cafe in the rear, offer some vegetarian and vegan choices on the menu, consider a thriftier menu out on the patio.
To point to the status quo in defense of business as usual is circuitous reasoning ... and we do so at our peril.
Between moves by Compuware, Blue Cross and Quicken Detroit has already pulled 12-15k in jobs from the burbs. The trend is definitely to consolidating in the CBD, why be so bitter towards those who are already helping out Detroit in other ways? Hantz lives in Rosedale Park. He probably has a pretty easy commute to Telegraph and the Lodge.
Why not bring up how the Lions may have built Ford Field in Detroit, but built the HQ in Allen Park to evade paying city income taxes?
Look as far as the world is concerned Southfield and Bloomfield ARE Detroit@
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. The city is effectively broke and the only way to change that trajectory is for tax paying entities to be physically located in the actual city of Detroit, and not just located in imaginary Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
curious. I had no idea where the Penske Group HQ was at. Well, there's certainly more than enough room to relocate to a downtown building.
If Compuware ends up being bought out and gutted/dissolved, there will be some needed space/ownership in the Compuware building.
Beyond that, maybe Dan Gilbert and/or Mr. Ilitch can convince Roger P to send some non-core staff downtown as an "experiment".
HA! There's an HOV lane there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
It saves approximately 200 gallons of jet fuel per passenger-lane-mile-hour. Who says we can't go green?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
Wasted on me too. What on earth are you talking about? Detroit as a source of wealth that's being 'extracted'? What?Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Bloomfield Hills is in Detroit. Detroit is an idea. I care not about municipal boundaries. Ich bin a Detroiter, baby.
In some ways, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
For all the party store owners who live outside the city.
For all the landlords who live in the suburbs.
For all the CVSs and RiteAids that vacuum up the money and send it to some regional accounting office.
For all the fast food restaurants and franchises owned by people in the suburbs.
It's just common sense, not some conspiracy. If you have a successful business in Detroit, you can afford to live somewhere better. So a lot of the money that goes into the community doesn't stay in the city.
I guess it works in reverse too, when suburbanites drive into Detroit to buy their drugs. At least drug dealers are likely to spend money in the community.
Over the years we've discussed the idea of the total tax bill of Detroiters. I'd like to see a study on that. What if you were to count in all taxes, including sales taxes and gas taxes as well as all other state and federal taxes, as well as city taxes that go to stuff it's very difficult to access [[Detroiters have traditionally paid in taxes for a MetroPark system, even though a significant percentage don't have a car and can't access them, or the way Detroit is forced to pay "tipping fees" to subsidize suburban waste systems that use the incinerator). I think you'd find that Detroiters do subsidize gold-plated roads and other services in Oakland County even as their own infrastructure falls apart. And even if it didn't tip into subsidy, I'm sure that it would be more regressive, i.e. a higher percentage of their income goes to taxes than you'd think.
Wes, your incredulity aside, and if you really are serious about regionalism, we have to get beyond this idea of the suburbs as paying for Detroit. Wealth is also extracted from Detroit and goes to the suburbs. Once there, that wealth cannot be used to fix the city.
The really sad thing is that if we could institute some sort of regional taxes to fund a center, mass transit and really subsidize the urban prospect, all 140-odd fiefdoms would see the benefits of it rapidly. Instead, Detroit is doomed because you have a system that builds out to the detriment of the center, then blame the center for being poor. If that's how you push for regionalism, you're doing it wrong.
Yes, I agree, and the folks saying otherwise aren't being completely truthful. When they say "Detroit" they don't mean the city of Detroit either. They mean Downtown and Midtown. The rest of the city can burn down, as long as a taxpayer subsidized Applebees opens on Woodward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Yes most of the upper echelon of Penske brass live in the area of Telegraph and Long Lake Road. You also have to remember the reason Mr. Penske is in Bloomfield Hills is the close proximity to Oakland International Airport where he keeps his planes. Unless City Airport expands its runways, I don't believe they can accommodate Mr. Penske's needs. He has around 200 employees at his HQ in Bloomfield counting administrative assistants, secretaries to janitors.
The runways at city are just fine. Most crews REFUSE to land or stay in Detroit. The crews that do land in Detroit always move the plane to Oakland unless of course they are the very few that fly out of city.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjeff
A decade ago, I was told by a reliable source in the aviation industry that City Airport was one of the most expensive airports for ground services and fuel. That I believe to be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
The presumed reason was that Detroit cared more about who got the contract than what the rates to users were. Issuing contracts to friends and family is a problem in Detroit, so I'm guessing this is true.
So this may have little to do with racism or anti-Detroitism, and more to do with money. Its just cheaper to go to Oakland.
Remember, follow the money.
There are what, approximately 5 million people in Metro Detroit? I would like them all to be Detroit boosters. But we wouldn't have room for all of them to live and work here even if they wanted to. I was a bona fide Detroit booster when I lived in New York. And Detroit would be much worse off if our suburbs were devoid of sucessful big businesses. If Mr. Penske thinks his business is better situated where it currently is, I am a few billion short of being able to question his judgment. He's a hell of a guy, good for Detroit, and I think is a suburbanite who pushes other suburbanites to give Detroit a shot.
I have a good friend who keeps his plane at City its much less expensive for him to keep the plane there than Oakland. From what he tells me its the crews and their prejudices about the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Well... Masco [[Manoogian) is in Taylor, Ford [[Ford) is in Dearborn, Taubman [[Tabuman) is in Bloomfield Hills. Don't know why Penske is being singled out for criticism here... he's not the only Detroit booster with suburban HQs.
I was referring not to housing costs, but to fuel and other ground services -- but I don't have facts to backup any of that -- so you may well be correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Tell me though, is it a prejudice to not want to come into Detroit where there is clearly a higher crime/murder rate than most suburbs? Prejudice is making a decision before knowing. I think the facts about Detroit suggest its not prejudgment, but simply an informed judgement. Me, I'm not bothered by the city and its crime rate. I bicycle around City Airport for fun.
That's a good point. Really going to take some easing into with new growth. I'm seriously betting we'll see plenty more jobs moving downtown. But the large garage construction makes me nervous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
City does not bother me either, and I know you were saying total cost. For my friend his costs are lower maybe not for the expensive jets. As for the crews from what I understand they make decisions on reputation not an what they actually know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Penske was used as an example, but why not discuss Masco ect..Masco has one of the worst HQs in metro Detroit, sandwiched next to a Kmart. Taubman is another one who should be lured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
My main point is that people love to criticize the city, and try to act as saviors, but god forbid they put any skin in the game. Moreover, I am sick of the excuse that "people don’t want to drive in to the city". What do you think suburbanites from Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, Washington DC, LA, Seattle ect.. Do? It’s just a lazy excuse. If you want the city to turn around, make the extra effort and stop being an arm chair urban planner expecting someone else to invest in the city, or work down there so that the city becomes nicer for when you attend a Red Wings or Tigers game.
What do you mean, until?Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Why do you choose to harshly criticize people who are on your side?Quote:
Originally Posted by tkelly1986
OK, I too would love to see these guys with HQs downtown. And maybe they will when they build a new HQ.
But you know what? I'm just really happy that these guys are in Detroit at all. Better to complain about companies that have moved to Chicago.
Get over the fact that they don't think exactly like you, and rejoice that they are.
I was not trying to criticize you, but rather just vent about the various people, whether that be law firms, ad agencies [[though we did get a win today with Campbell-Ewald), parts suppliers ect..Who are so concerned about the turnaround of Detroit, but want to stay in their cushy suburban office campus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
You mean "if you want to turn downtown around".Quote:
Originally Posted by tkelly1986
The improvements downtown have little to no effect on the rest of the city.
The problems in Detroit have almost nothing to do with downtown, and if every corporation mentioned in this thread were downtown, Detroit would be in basically the same shape it's in now.
I didn't take your comment personally, and I trust you didn't either.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkelly1986
There's nothing at all wrong with having a HQ in a 'cushy suburb'. Masco's headquarters is cushily on a miserable street of strip malls, next to K-Mart, near a freeway. I bet its 100% paid off. Maybe they'll consider relocation when its time -- but until them, I'm glad they are a Detroit-based company.
You also have to consider the happiness of your work force. They went to work for you and purchased homes as convenient to the work place as possible for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Now you want to uproot them, lengthen their commute, and degrade their quality of life all for making a contribution to "social engineering". How many of their employees want to work in a "vibrant downtown"?
I think an increasing number of employees, especially those who are younger, are drawn to the 'vibrant downtown'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
But a measure of a company or a man is not solely their willingness to move their HQ downtown. They sometimes have other issues, as you point out.
If you are seriously suggesting that Penske is not committed to Detroit because he doesn't move his business here, all I can say is that you had better not be [[1) driving a car made somewhere other than Detroit-Hamtramck or Jefferson North and [[2) shopping on Amazon or in the suburbs for anything you could buy in Detroit. After all, being committed means holding nothing back, right?
This thread has implicitly [[if not explicitly) attacked several of the biggest contributors to Detroit's cultural life, without which it would be an uncultured hellhole. If you spend any time at the DIA, the Opera, or the Orchestra, you'd see that City of Detroit residents and companies are not very common on the donor walls. Even as a Detroit resident, I would rather see their money go to supporting institutions that hit above Detroit's weight than to being some handful of water thrown onto the inferno of city finances.
And don't underestimate the effect of CEO residence on corporate siting. WTVS moved to Wixom because its head lived there. Comerica moved to Dallas because Ralph Babb wanted to live there. Bank of America [[and the rest of the big banks in Charlotte) are there because the head of a tiny regional bank bought BoA and moved all of its employees there. If Penske is in Bloomfield because it's near his house, tell me where someone of his station and wealth lives in Detroit.* I won't hold my breath.
HB
* At the same time, to derisive comments about the "vibrant downtown," it is far easier to hire [[and retain) a 20-30 year old in Detroit than in Oakland County. Unlike Dan Gilbert, someone like Penske may have an older workforce that is not [[a) eager to be uprooted or [[b) interested in a place relatively far from any quality schools.
Totally agree. How about a big thank you to Penske versus what else he should do. I don't think a lot of people in the private sector get anough credit and thank yous for the wonderful things they do for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggybear
Also, one has to be careful what they wish for... just look at the Ilitch's... yes they've done a lot with moving their HQ to Detroit, et al... but has anyone else done as much in "urban clearance"?? :eek:
First, a big thank you to Penske.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Second, I don't like a lot of what Ilitch has done in Downtown, but like Penske, he sure did step up when no one else did. Around here I know this gets lost amongst the hate.
Penske has shown more leadership in the Detroit turn around than the entire llitch clan combined. All they want to do is exploit their position and try to grab as much of the entertainment pie as they possibly can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Most of the world sees no distinction between Bloomfield and Detroit. To them, it is all Detroit. Let be realistic and remove the political boundaries that have been set up to exploit, divide, and conquer.
In a lot of cases, the political boundaries were set up to prevent "exploitation". When a rural is just farms and stuff, the nearby city has absolutely no interest in any annexation. If a "tax positive" operation like a factory or a shopping center sets up on rural land, the adjacent city wants to annex that area [[and only that area). The township of Troy incorporated as the city of Troy when it was mostly a rural area because Birmingham, Royal Oak, and Clawson were nibbling away at the "tax positive" areas of Troy Township which adjoined their cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Really? Like, there is no culture outside a few select institutions? OK ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggybear
I concede your point, though. That piece of conceptual art he laid in on Belle Isle really helps frame the Scott Fountain nicely. ;)
I think one way to tie the region together, while building up the urban core, without the claim of "poaching" is to connect, via rapid transit, major suburban job centers as well as the airport, with Downtown Detroit.
Here is my vision... Grade seperated rapid transit on the following routes: Downtown-Troy via Woodward, Maple and Coolidge; Downtown-Southfield via Woodward, McNichols and the Lodge; Downtown-Dearborn-Airport via Michigan Ave, Telegraph and I-94; and Southfield-Dearborn via Southfield Freeway. I would then introduce commuter rail service throughout the region using existing corridors. Finally, connector bus service connecting all stations to residential areas.
This would likely lead to an intense build up in all areas served by the rail, but especially in Downtown Detroit which would be the most central and therefore most desirable for residential and commercial development. It would also make our region, as a whole, much more competitive on a global level.
Hey, pinko! Go build your magic choo-choo in some other People's Soviet! We love our cars! Winters are cold here! Road pay for themselves! Trains can't run on a farebox! We have car companies, so we should use cars for everything! Commie! Hippie!Quote:
Originally Posted by casscorridor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlTM4INe-5A
This may be crazy and wild but instead of simply trying to just move jobs around, how about we focus on getting companies looking to expand in other markets to chose Detroit? Why not recruit ad agencies or law firms or tech companies or any company that does not have a presence in Detroit? Then we would add new jobs instead of just shifting them around.
Yeah, if we could just recruit more companies! Why hasn't THAT been tried before!?!? Call the Mayor! Problem solved!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shollin
You know what else I just thought of? What if we can get people from the 'burbs to move back to Detroit???????Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
True enough, but going back even earlier, there are some things like policing, garbage collection, code enforcement that provide for the general good. These other 'exploitation' issue are politics -- an unavoidable part of government. There's no rational, progressive reason for the balkanization of local governments -- except power and politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
I'm sorry I didn't know it was tried before since out of town companies aren't moving to Detroit and the top two threads in this forum are about moving jobs from the suburbs to Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
What numbers are you basing this on? In a city with a double-digit unemployment rate and a poverty level of over 33%, how much do you think city residents are contributing in tax dollars versus how much they get back in state and federal services/spending, not to mention all the state/federal benefits [[unemployment, food stamps, Medicaid, SSDI, welfare, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
I don't think anyone with a functioning brain and ounce of objectivity can dispute that Detroit's very existence is HEAVILY subsidized by both the state and federal taxpayer.
You weren't aware that the suburbs are much more subsidized then Detroit? Mortgage interest deductions are not available to homes purchased in Detroit apparently, and unlike Detroit, the suburbs don't have half their population not paying property tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by aj3647
You are right in what you say... usually I'm more pro-Ilitch than anti-Ilitch... but I'm actually still on the fence... pending the outcome of 1) the United Artists complex fate, 2) the Fine Arts Building facade fate, 3) the Moose Lodge fate, 4) the Eddystone and its' neighbors fate, 5) where and how he builds a new arena... 6) and when he gets around to restorig the Detroit Life Building.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
One of the biggest things he's done [[probably has his motives though)... was to pay up the utility bills of the Masonic Temple. Had that closed... it would have been scrapped and left as a white elephant in no time after the remaining lodges moved to the burbs...
Let's not forget the historic Madison-Lenox Hotel! Oh, wait. He tore that down, didn't he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Don't worry, Nerd, you will get a choo choo soon.
Attachment 18517
Bumping this old thread for a couple reasons:
1. For further Illitch-hating it's interesting to see Gistok's comments 3 posts up from 6.5 years ago and, except for the stadium, none of those things have been done yet...
2. Penske, in a huge move, just purchased Indy Car:
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/m...ke/4154392002/
When is this guy going to move his damn company downtown in a final, overdue iconic move?? I can't speak to how much sense it makes logistically for their company but by god it sure has all the right optics! And this company is huge! $32B in revenues? Anyway, would just love a tower with the Penske logo on it :rolleyes:
Does Penske have enough people at HQ to build an actual tower?
Moving downtown or New Center for really any company seems like a no-brainer today, maybe not so much 7 or so years ago. Bedrock should court them, they'd make a fine tenant at Monroe Block.
Interesting to see this thread. I've just returned to Detroit after about 5 years away. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Penske funded the big downtown cleanup ahead of the Super Bowl
when it happened in Detroit. His downtown heart was in the right
place at that time. It's fine if he always stays in Bloomfield Hills
or if he goes wherever. He is a good neighbor here, there, or anywhere.
Their office building in bloomfield is pretty small [[two floors and not a big footprint). The various companies have their own hqs which are located around the country/world, and while moving them to Detroit would be great for Detroit, arbitrarily relocating companies is probably not good for those companies. And just with the nature of their businesses I doubt a whole ton of the 64,000 employees are hq-type office jobs, they're mostly trucking businesses.
From one of their websites....
Penske Automotive Group, Inc. [[NYSE:PAG) headquartered in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, is an international transportation services company that operates automotive and commercial truck dealerships principally in the United States, Canada and Western Europe, and distributes commercial vehicles, diesel engines, gas engines, power systems and related parts and services principally in Australia and New Zealand. PAG employs more than 26,000 people worldwide and is a member of the Fortune 500, Russell 2000, an was named one of the World's Most Admired Companies by Fortune.
Here is a list of 181 Auto Dealers he owns in the USA....
https://www.penskeautomotive.com/Cus...GenPage=429675
Trucking is only part of his business interests. Around the world he probably owns over 300 car dealerships.
So most of his employees are probably located in remote sites, such as dealerships around the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
And now he has bought the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, the Indy 500, and the entire Indy Car racing series.
His net worth is usually listed around 1.5 billion. Not petty cash by any means, but if you look at the size and diversity of his companies, and his age for that matter, I'm surprised it's not higher.
I want the whole region to grow and prosper... both the City of Detroit and its suburbs.
We all saw what happened when it was Suburbs vs. City for decades, with most of the investments in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s going to the suburbs and the city neglected. I don’t want to flip it the other way and see the suburbs completely neglected either.
It is great to see the redevelopment downtown, and yes that is the area that is most vital for attracting talent and jobs in many different sectors. But..,, the bigger point is that some industries and their headquarters are still better suited for the suburbs. Penske and the Automotive industries he owns mostly fall into that category. Celebrate more jobs in the region as a whole. That should be the goal, not suburbs vs. city again, even if city is winning that battle this time around.
I had a Crain's subscription for a year recently, and once or twice a month Crain's would report a new foreign or domestic auto supplier either re-locating & building a new facility or substantially expanding it's current local facility and employment force. 9 times of out 10, these companies chose the suburbs for the new/expanded facility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus
Just look at the new chains that have set up shop in the Detroit area over the past few years - BJ Wholesale, Bob's Discount Furniture, Menards, Smoothie King, Tropical Smoothie Cafe - none of those are in the city.
The suburbs are definitely still winning big.
I do agree we need to pull employers from OUTSIDE THE REGION.
-Volkswagen and Ford are rumored to be collaborating, could VW be convince to bring their US HQ back here?
-Kellogg's has a big office in downtown Chicago - could they be convinced to relocate this office to Detroit?
-The new Dow in Midland. Would they be interested in opening an office in Detroit?
-The Smile Direct Club was originally located in the area before moving to Nashville in 2016. Would they be interested in returning?
Maybe Penske’s HQ is in Bloomfield Hills bc he got a good deal on the Bloomfield Hills location. He is a businessman, after all. Where he's located now used to be GE Capital's location. Not sure where they went.
After almost bankrupting GE in the 2006-2008 mortgage meltdown, GE Capital was spun off as Synchrony BankQuote:
Originally Posted by Pat001
I have worked downtown for the last 4 1/2 years and very winter walking somewhere for lunch [[especially Grand Circus Park) is asking for broken bones... the sidewalks are always untouched and dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
If all my employees live near [[centrally) where I am located, and I have a nice lease deal where I am - what reason should I locate further from my employees and ask them to pay city tax? Asking for a friend. FYI - food trucks and exorbitant Gilbert parking fees aside. Also, why are Troy and Southfield major office centers at all? How do we address generational decisions without ever addressing public transit, public safety or schools? Should we abandon these suburbs and ignore making our larger regional center an attractive place to live and work? Can we not have both? Real question, are we doomed to have neither? Houston will surpass Chicago as the 3rd largest city shortly. Should we continue our rush to the coasts and drought-sensitive climates? Do we have a national strategy to address global climate change? Do we even care?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat001
Furthermore, we are facing a global climate catastrophe, species of animals and plants are dying off at record levels, wealth inequality and national debt at at record levels. Healthcare costs are on a runaway train. We have a mental health and opioid crisis. Mass shootings are more and more frequent. Our infrastructure is garbage. We’re opening up Alaskan wilderness to drilling and logging. Endless wars and record incarceration levels under for profit operators are the norm. We’re denying survivor benefits to 9/11 first responders. Kids are dying in cages on the border, but we’re all too worried to make sure we get our pittance of a stupid tax break. Our president openly admitted to tampering with our elections and says our national intelligence agencies and free media are enemies of the state. This is not fringe thinking anymore folks. And we are fretting over a theatre getting torn down. Not that isn’t a noble cause, but where are our priorities? How are we not marching on the Capitol?
Penske seems like a nice guy, and Detroit is fortunate to have him on its side [[except for what his Grand Prix does to Belle Isle every summer). But... the Penske Corporation isn't the future of the global economy. Where the Penske Corporation locates is not even an argument worth having today.
Imagine we all took a time machine back to the late 90s, and we could all vote on whether we want Google or Amazon to locate downtown vs GM or Ford. In 1999, GM had a market cap of about $47 billion and Google was worth less than $200 million. Today, GM is worth about $57 billion and Google is worth nearly $1 trillion.
A company like GM still employs far more people at least compared to google and is still very relevant for new technology. What a company is worth is mostly based on intangible beliefs that could change at any moment. Just look at Tesla's insanity they've lost nearly a billion this year alone. Any of us can buy a stock and make that gamble. Who knows what the next crop of super hot companies will be in twenty years.