Detroit Tigers --Another Year, More of the Same

It looks like the Tigers are going to repeat last yr's dismal performance. This year the bullpen is sound and the rotation is lousy. The lineup continues to flounder. The closer, not that he's needed much, has an 87 mile per hour fastball and is Nathan 2.0.

I'm starting to miss the days when you had a rebuilding team with no expectations. You watch youngsters make mistakes but at least they play hard and any day you win is a pleasant surprise. Instead we have a bunch of past their prime overpaid slow players who underperform. They run the bases like they never played little league. They joke in the dugout when they're down 5 runs.

I used to feel sorry for Ilitch not winning a World Series but I'm starting to think he may be the problem. Deciding to way overpay for a guy like Upton at the last moment, just like he did with Fielder, does nothing to develop the team the way a GM would if he knew his payroll going into the offseason. I'm ready for a rebuild but even if Ilitch agreed nobody would take these contracts.

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Originally Posted by 401don

It looks like the Tigers are going to repeat last yr's dismal performance. This year the bullpen is sound and the rotation is lousy. The lineup continues to flounder. The closer, not that he's needed much, has an 87 mile per hour fastball and is Nathan 2.0.

I'm starting to miss the days when you had a rebuilding team with no expectations. You watch youngsters make mistakes but at least they play hard and any day you win is a pleasant surprise. Instead we have a bunch of past their prime overpaid slow players who underperform. They run the bases like they never played little league. They joke in the dugout when they're down 5 runs.

I used to feel sorry for Ilitch not winning a World Series but I'm starting to think he may be the problem. Deciding to way overpay for a guy like Upton at the last moment, just like he did with Fielder, does nothing to develop the team the way a GM would if he knew his payroll going into the offseason. I'm ready for a rebuild but even if Ilitch agreed nobody would take these contracts.

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This team will live and die by its starting pitching.

Tell me how many wins JV, Sanchez, Greene, etc. will have on July 4 and I'll tell you if we are repeating last year's season.

Zimmerman can only pitch every 5th day so it is really in JV and Sanchez's hands.

Hopefully they pitch like #2 and 3 pitchers...

Looks like a .500 year to me. And that might be wishful thinking. I paid Cox cable here in Las Vegas $175 for the baseball package but the last three games in Cleveland had me wishing I kept the cash. Well, I can always watch the Cubbies, anyway.

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Originally Posted by 401don

It looks like the Tigers are going to repeat last yr's dismal performance. This year the bullpen is sound and the rotation is lousy. The lineup continues to flounder. The closer, not that he's needed much, has an 87 mile per hour fastball and is Nathan 2.0.

I'm starting to miss the days when you had a rebuilding team with no expectations. You watch youngsters make mistakes but at least they play hard and any day you win is a pleasant surprise. Instead we have a bunch of past their prime overpaid slow players who underperform. They run the bases like they never played little league. They joke in the dugout when they're down 5 runs.

I used to feel sorry for Ilitch not winning a World Series but I'm starting to think he may be the problem. Deciding to way overpay for a guy like Upton at the last moment, just like he did with Fielder, does nothing to develop the team the way a GM would if he knew his payroll going into the offseason. I'm ready for a rebuild but even if Ilitch agreed nobody would take these contracts.

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I remember them going to the World Series with Fielder. It wasn't a pretty series but they got there.

The Upton deal seems particularly bad to me. Like some sort of desperation, wishful thinking kind of move. Spending themselves up to the cap for someone who's been, at best, a streaky mid-level all-star with high strikeout numbers throughout his career.

If Wally Joyner is saying he doesn't know what to do about the dead bats, that should be the number one reason to can him. And if Brad can't figure that out, then can him too. I hope he's out by June.

Upton is extremely streaky, always been like that. Just a cpl weekends ago he was a world beater

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Originally Posted by Oddz313

Upton is extremely streaky, always been like that. Just a cpl weekends ago he was a world beater

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Upton is a good everyday outfielder. Average defensively, with some power. I have to keep reminding myself that its not his fault the Tigers are paying him like he's one of the 5 best in the league. It does drive me nuts though when broadcasters keep saying he has tremendous power. I would rather have a guy that hit 30 home runs that just cleared the fence than a guy that swings so hard he hits 15 of them 400 feet plus with a ton of strikeouts.

Miggie doesn't look so hot this year so far either. Could he be over the hill already? Sigh.

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Originally Posted by 401don

Upton is a good everyday outfielder. Average defensively, with some power. I have to keep reminding myself that its not his fault the Tigers are paying him like he's one of the 5 best in the league. It does drive me nuts though when broadcasters keep saying he has tremendous power. I would rather have a guy that hit 30 home runs that just cleared the fence than a guy that swings so hard he hits 15 of them 400 feet plus with a ton of strikeouts.

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Upton is the closest thing to a "hot and cold" player you can find. He can start out in a slump for a month or two, then catch fire and carry a team, 2 months later. You would think the Tigers, would have did their homework on him, before signing him to that huge deal. He strikes out way too much. And signing Mike Pelfrey was also a waste. Why do you think the Twins let him walk? He hasn't won a start since last August. They finally fix the bullpen somewhat, now the starters are the problem. Sanchez and JV look like they're done, Zimmerman who suffered his 1st loss yesterday, has been their best pitcher. and Miggy and JD aren't hitting yet. One bright spot has been Castellanos, who looks like he might have a career year. They're window of opportunity has been officially slammed shut.

I think it's too early to write them off but it's disturbing that their big guns are silent at this point and the lack of key hits is too reminiscent of last year.

Too early to tell but I agree it is disquieting. So far I see a streaky team, world beaters for a few days then it looks like they can't hit a basketball and everything they throw is a basketball.

They also kind of reflect America. Other than Zimmerman and Victor, the uber Rich aren't paying their fair share.

They better have it rolling by June or it could be #AusmusTGO

Softailrider and Lowell, you're correct, it is early, and maybe they get on track by June. I just hope they at least show some fight and compete, and not shrug off every loss like "there's always tomorrow" which is the reaction I've been seeing. Laughing and joking during and after a loss, doesn't cut it for me.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Softailrider and Lowell, you're correct, it is early, and maybe they get on track by June. I just hope they at least show some fight and compete, and not shrug off every loss like "there's always tomorrow" which is the reaction I've been seeing. Laughing and joking during and after a loss, doesn't cut it for me.

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Totally agree with your posts. Granted I watch the Tigers more than others, but I just don't see the joking in the dugout by other teams during losses. Fans are taking notice. It's irritating when you feel you care more than the players. The hitting will come around although it will always be difficult to scratch out close games with the lack of speed. I agree with you that Verlander and Sanchez are done as front-line starters. They are, at best, .500 pitchers. That doesn't add up to a winning season.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Laughing and joking during and after a loss, doesn't cut it for me.

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Reminds me of high school football days. Our team had gone 0-8 the previous year and had a new coach. We lost our first road game and on the way home on the bus we were goofing off and laughing about. The coach stopped the bus and laid into us. "What are you so happy about? Did you win something?" Future road loss rides were silent, and fewer, as we improved to 4-4. There's a thin line between being serious and keeping loose. I hope our Tigers can find that balance.

Did I say this year the bullpen is sound and the rotation is lousy? Oops, my mistake.

any season the tigers lose against the indians means no winning the world series. yeah, they dont have to win against cleveland because its cleveland. but its that kind of attitude that means no win for the tigers.

We're only 18% into this season. Lots of baseball left to play. Yes, you make good points. But with regards to the fans. I always love Comerica's atmosphere and I think Tigers fans are knowledgeable about the game. But, also they get negative way to quick. The level of booing yesterday was too severe. I've seen people boo Miggy in his triple crown season and the year before. The atmosphere at game 4 against the Orioles in the playoffs was terrible, people partying and not even supporting the Tigers or believing they can win. Don't want to hijack a full team talk, but the fans for their positives, can have a severe negativity element and it seemed that way yesterday.

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Originally Posted by 401don

Did I say this year the bullpen is sound and the rotation is lousy? Oops, my mistake.

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That Lowe guy sure had a bad couple days.

401Don, I think you make good points about the team, but I think you're a little overly negative. Not counting last year, the Tigers have had quite a lot of success for the last decade. I do fully agree that the aging, expensive players are the biggest structural problem for the franchise. The front office needs to seriously address that or be replaced. Still, in the end, I love both the Tigers and baseball. Frustrated as I was, I still enjoyed the Tigers in the awful period before 2006.

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Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

401Don, I think you make good points about the team, but I think you're a little overly negative. Not counting last year, the Tigers have had quite a lot of success for the last decade. I do fully agree that the aging, expensive players are the biggest structural problem for the franchise. The front office needs to seriously address that or be replaced. Still, in the end, I love both the Tigers and baseball. Frustrated as I was, I still enjoyed the Tigers in the awful period before 2006.

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You are correct. I am feeling very negative about the team right now. Never dreamed they would be 8 games out a little over a month into the season. It's frustrating when the talent doesn't come close to its norms. Last night Cabrera makes a late slide into 2nd base for no reason, almost injuring himself. Instead of removing him for a pinch runner Ausmus leaves him in. He hesitates going to 3rd on a wild pitch and is out. Would have had the winning run on 3rd with nobody out. Just can't keep watching this stuff over and over.

I think a lot of dumb moves have happened that go back to Illitch.

1) Giving extensions to Cabrera and Verlander that were way too early. Both of them received extensions with over two years remaining, and now neither of them is playing to those contracts. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been re-signed, but they both got hurt in the window of what would have been their original deal, so you'd think that if Illitch had waited, the extensions would have been for less years and less money. Now they just look like they're carrying a lot of dead weight.

2) I never got the whole thing about Scherzer. So what, he didn't take your $144 million deal? Turns out it was a pretty smart move on his part as he got, what, the same deal plus what amounts to an extra $66 million for one extra year? Scherzer turning down the extension was business. Illitch not even allowing an offer during his walk year was personal, and plain stupid.

3) The whole idea of building a roster with a bunch of $20m guys that then have a big fall off has Illitch stamped all over it. The whole premise goes back to the Red Wings when he was able to open his pocketbook and get those missing pieces to get the run of Stanley Cups. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way in baseball. The Giants, Royals and other teams that have won lately show that the Tigers model doesn't work, yet we keep doubling down again and again. Even the Yankees finally realized it doesn't work and have backed off, but here we have roughly 2/3 the payroll going to roughly 20% of the roster. But it'll start working any day now, I'm sure.....

4) I still hold a grudge about Dombrowski getting canned via a phone call and having to pull his kid off the field in embarrassment was one of the most shameful things I've seen. I agreed that it was time for Dombrowski to go, but when Illitch made it happen like that, I made up my mind that I hoped he wouldn't get his championship.

Okay, things are looking up after winning 8 of 10 and you hate to revel in other's misery but - Alex Gordon and Mike Moustakas collided on a little pop up a couple of days ago. Gordon is on the DL with a broken wrist and Moustakas is out for the season with a torn ACL. Until now, I liked our chances to overtake Cleveland and Chicago much better than KC.

This season is getting to be the classic glass half full/half empty Rorschach test.

Tigers trade for another SP. James Shields? And a reliever? and the AL Central is wide open.

Zimmerman, a #1, JV, a #2, Shields a #3, Sanchez, a #4, Zulmer, #5 [[with a very high ceiling).

Greene and Mike P. are also available for the back end of the rotation.

I have no problems with the position players as a group.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

This season is getting to be the classic glass half full/half empty Rorschach test.

Tigers trade for another SP. James Shields? And a reliever? and the AL Central is wide open.

Zimmerman, a #1, JV, a #2, Shields a #3, Sanchez, a #4, Zulmer, #5 [[with a very high ceiling).

Greene and Mike P. are also available for the back end of the rotation.

I have no problems with the position players as a group.

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What your saying is the team lost looks good on paper, I agree with that. I've felt the same way since March. Don't know what that translates to, hopefully that means they can compete up until the end.

I agree with everything above, but Sanchez. He looks like a shell of himself, don't know what has happened to him, and pretty sure, he doesn't either.. Greene might be suitable enough to go back into the rotation. Pelfrey seems to be suffering from just "bad luck"

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Originally Posted by softailrider

What your saying is the team lost looks good on paper, I agree with that. I've felt the same way since March. Don't know what that translates to, hopefully that means they can compete up until the end.

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If we can find a way to get Andrew Miller [[reliever) out of NYY and say Shields out of S.D. without giving up too much batting we could contend.

We could raid the farm system but there isn't too much there and what is there we restocked less than 12 months ago...

I know folks hate the 'we are one [[or maybe two, max) players away from contending' talk but we are.

We have a very nice bunch of position players. NO changes required there. Some, e.g., McCann, Upton, etc. need to get their stroke back but it should happen.

It is simply the pitching which needs to move from a minus to at least 'neutral'.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

If we can find a way to get Andrew Miller [[reliever) out of NYY and say Shields out of S.D. without giving up too much batting we could contend.

We could raid the farm system but there isn't too much there and what is there we restocked less than 12 months ago...

I know folks hate the 'we are one [[or maybe two, max) players away from contending' talk but we are.

We have a very nice bunch of position players. NO changes required there. Some, e.g., McCann, Upton, etc. need to get their stroke back but it should happen.

It is simply the pitching which needs to move from a minus to at least 'neutral'.

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A little greedy aren't we? The Tigers payroll is already about twice anybody else in the division and you want to add 30 million more for Shields and Miller? It would be nice to win it at least somewhat honestly.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

If we can find a way to get Andrew Miller [[reliever) out of NYY and say Shields out of S.D. without giving up too much batting we could contend.

We could raid the farm system but there isn't too much there and what is there we restocked less than 12 months ago...

I know folks hate the 'we are one [[or maybe two, max) players away from contending' talk but we are.

We have a very nice bunch of position players. NO changes required there. Some, e.g., McCann, Upton, etc. need to get their stroke back but it should happen.

It is simply the pitching which needs to move from a minus to at least 'neutral'.

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McCann never had a stroke... He's a decent catcher that can't hit consistantly. Now Upton is another story... I tend to agree with 401don, Tigers can't afford any more big salaries, unless they're able to move some, which is highly unlikely.

They will be in last place soon after the all-star break.....just like last year.

Total Payroll: Rank 4th highest with $196,586,403

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Originally Posted by Smirnoff

They will be in last place soon after the all-star break.....just like last year.

Total Payroll: Rank 4th highest with $196,586,403

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Such negativity.

This team has much more potential than last year's team which was depopulated with nothing of IMMEDIATE return[[ i.e., Fulmer, Boyd, Norris, etc. weren't ready and Jordan Zimmerman wasn't even a dream...) after Cespedes, Price, etc. were dealt...

Not sure I like the 2016 'pen but there are a lot of excellent and HEALTHY position players [[think Miggy and V-Mart).

Well....that bullpen gave another game away, after Pelfrey got into trouble in the 7th. He pitched pretty good up to that point.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Well....that bullpen gave another game away, after Pelfrey got into trouble in the 7th. He pitched pretty good up to that point.

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Hate to blame Kinsler, an all-star talent, but his miscue turned the game upside down.

Pelfrey would have been out of trouble if Ian had gotten a single out on a routine ground ball...

All of those 7th inning runs were unearned...

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Hate to blame Kinsler, an all-star talent, but his miscue turned the game upside down.Pelfrey would have been out of trouble if Ian had gotten a single out on a routine ground ball... All of those 7th inning runs were unearned...

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We also found out why Maybin hasn't been a regular in centerfield the past few years and hasn't been his bat. He took bad routes on 3 balls this series that turned into hits. That play today was brutal and his arm is weak to boot.

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Originally Posted by 401don

We also found out why Maybin hasn't been a regular in centerfield the past few years and hasn't been his bat. He took bad routes on 3 balls this series that turned into hits. That play today was brutal and his arm is weak to boot.

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He's no Mickey Stanley that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by softailrider

He's no Mickey Stanley that's for sure.

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LOL, bring back Austin Jackson..:o

After last night [[and many other nights) it's getting to be: "It's [[Andrew) Miller Time".

Time to trade for Andrew Miller and move Rodriquez up to the 8th inning and move down some of the relievers who are not getting it done...

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Originally Posted by emu steve

After last night [[and many other nights) it's getting to be: "It's [[Andrew) Miller Time".

Time to trade for Andrew Miller and move Rodriquez up to the 8th inning and move down some of the relievers who are not getting it done...

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There are so many lousy overpaid pitchers on this team signing another 10 million dollar closer is not going to solve anything.

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Originally Posted by 401don

There are so many lousy overpaid pitchers on this team signing another 10 million dollar closer is not going to solve anything.

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It is hard to put a happy face :) on the Tigers' pitching this year, but Tony Paul did provide a possible bright light in his article.

Few doubt Zimmerman or Verlander.

Many are very excited about Fulmer's future.

Many are excited by Norris' potential as well... [[emphasis below mine):

"Consider what ESPN's Keith Law -- who supposedly hates the Tigers, if you ask any Tigers fan -- told me Monday: "Fulmer and Norris are above average or better starters. You can build a rotation around those guys."
He's not as sold on Boyd, but he'd be your No. 5, and has three pitches these days, and figures to give you a better shot every fifth day than, say, Mike Pelfrey."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2016/05/31/paul-tigers-must-move-kids-into-rotation-vets-bullpen/85188234/

Have to admit I did NOT like selling off Cespedes, Price, Soria last year but the players we got back are uuuuuuuuuge. Fulmer and Norris should be pitchers for years and Jones could be a good position player as well...

I might add parenthetically, IF Fulmer continues to pitch well AND Norris contributes as a #4 starter, then the starters might be solid enough that beefing up the 'pen would be a realistic strategy or hope.

Obviously, if the starters fail, then bad starters and bad 'pen then it is all over...

Changes coming with Sanchez sent to the 'pen and Lowe struggling badly.

We'll see if Zimmerman, JV, Fulmer, Pelprey, Norris, Greene, etc. can get it done.

Also will see if Sanchez can work his way back. Ditto Lowe.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...lpen/85263466/

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Originally Posted by Smirnoff

They will be in last place soon after the all-star break.....just like last year.

Total Payroll: Rank 4th highest with $196,586,403

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They aren't gonna be in last place this year with the Twins in the division. Good rant though.

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Originally Posted by Lombaowski

They aren't gonna be in last place this year with the Twins in the division. Good rant though.

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Yep.

Anyone who picks the Tigers last in the AL Central should be the unlucky winner of a 4-month supply of Prozac.

Prescriptions for Prozac should be soaring in the twin cities... They are having a BAD season.

Still very early, they could get hot and turn things around.

One bright spot to this is that there are some cheap tickets floating around for these home games.

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Originally Posted by softailrider

Still very early, they could get hot and turn things around.

One bright spot to this is that there are some cheap tickets floating around for these home games.

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Agree. I feel more optimistic than during other parts of the season to date.

We have some players who need to turn it around. Just think of what this season COULD OR WOULD have been with 'typical' performances from say J Up, Sanchez, and Lowe.

For our optimists, if we get/continue to get, what we are hoping for from Fulmer, Norris, Boyd, etc. we will do well.

As everyone knows, Tigers need to develop pitching from their farm system [[including trades such as the minor leaguers got last year from Mets and B. Jays).

We started the season with Zimmerman, Verlander and Sanchez. Sanchez has become a question mark, but if Fulmer becomes a #2 quality pitcher and Norris or Boyd can be say a #4, we will be fine for years with a young staff [[JV is the 'old man' on the staff; Zimmerman is 30.).

Happy to see some kids aged 23, 23, and 25 [[Boyd is the 25 year old).

A Zimmerman, JV, Fulmer, Norris, and Boyd rotation would be 30, 32, 23, 23 and 25. No gray beards.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

We have some players who need to turn it around. Just think of what this season COULD OR WOULD have been with 'typical' performances from say J Up, Sanchez, and Lowe.

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As soon as they start returning to form, they'll just get replaced by other guys that'll start slumping. That's the way that this team has worked for a few seasons now, which ends up to perpetually spinning their wheels.

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Originally Posted by softailrider

Still very early, they could get hot and turn things around.

One bright spot to this is that there are some cheap tickets floating around for these home games.

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The AL Central is wide open.

This could be a FUN season after some frustrating stretches...

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Originally Posted by emu steve

The AL Central is wide open.

This could be a FUN season after some frustrating stretches...

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It is wide open, Cleveland is in first place at the moment, could all change in a week or two.

Things are definitely looking up. Can't believe they closed an 8 game gap with the Sox in about 2 weeks. Greene looks great in late relief. He has a terrific fastball & slider and very mediocre off-speed stuff. With his blister tendencies it would be crazy to move him back to starting, especially the way A. Wilson and Lowe have been pitching. I'm glad Martinez finally spoke up about not liking the 2 hole. Maybin is better there and it moves Upton down another notch to no. 7.

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Originally Posted by 401don

Things are definitely looking up. Can't believe they closed an 8 game gap with the Sox in about 2 weeks. Greene looks great in late relief. He has a terrific fastball & slider and very mediocre off-speed stuff. With his blister tendencies it would be crazy to move him back to starting, especially the way A. Wilson and Lowe have been pitching. I'm glad Martinez finally spoke up about not liking the 2 hole. Maybin is better there and it moves Upton down another notch to no. 7.

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I'm going to offer Brad, free, unsolicited advice on making Maybin work even better at the #2 spot...

When Kinsler gets to first to start a game, have Maybin BUNT him to second.

LET, the opposing team WALK Miggy to set up runners at 1st and 2nd for V-Mart with one out.

There is the risk of a DP, but also the possibility of a big inning... :)

"Hit them early and often..."

Went to the Monday June 6th game. Kind of surprising, but the stadium was about 2/3 full. A lot of Blue Jay fans. I know the kids are still in school but they don't seem to be drawing as well as previous years. We got 1st base line, 2nd tier tickets for 6 dollars. That's pretty cheap.

I'd tend to think, the weekend crowds are bigger, [[ no work, or school) but maybe not. Kids being in school may have something to do with it, to your point. School will soon be out, and parents will be looking for something to keep them entertained, so the crowds may grow.

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Originally Posted by softailrider

Went to the Monday June 6th game. Kind of surprising, but the stadium was about 2/3 full. A lot of Blue Jay fans. I know the kids are still in school but they don't seem to be drawing as well as previous years. We got 1st base line, 2nd tier tickets for 6 dollars. That's pretty cheap.

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Seems to be the case.

It will take a while this season for fans to determine, in their minds, if the team is a playoff contender.

Fans this year have seemed more of 'wait and see...'

Just a question on tonight's Miggy moon shot:

Is the area where the ball landed [[where fans stand) is that inside the stadium [[standing room) or it outside the stadium [[sidewalk)?

I want to say it is outside the stadium but not sure.

EDIT: I think it is standing room inside the stadium, but the ball left the park.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2016/06/...ca-park-video/

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Originally Posted by Maof

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2016/06/...ca-park-video/

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Thanks.

Am I right that there is a SRO crowd there and then behind them those outside the fence, on the Adams' sidewalk, looking in?

This ball went through the concourse level, over the sidewalk and into the street. Correct?

What a game tonight. J Up wins it with a walk off HR in 12.

4:29 for those keeping track.

i believe your right steve.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

What a game tonight. J Up wins it with a walk off HR in 12.

4:29 for those keeping track.

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Maybe he's coming out of his prolonged slump. Would be nice if he did....

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Maybe he's coming out of his prolonged slump. Would be nice if he did....

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I think the past couple of weeks we've finally seen the real Upton. Problem is, the real Upton is not very good - swing out of his pants and connect for 20 home runs, hit about .250, tons of strikeouts and below average defense.

I'm finally giddy hopeful on the Tigs pitching w/out having to trade the farm for July help.

Beside Fulmer, we have prospects like Norris, Boyd, Rondon [[please this be the year), high ceiling reliever in the minors, Jimenez, and hopes for comebacks by Sanchez and Greene.

If say two of Norris, Boyd, Rondon and Jimenez come through big we'll be okay. That would be the one starter and one reliever we need without going out on the trade market and deplete the minor league prospects

Also have a very good prospect, JaCoby Jones, in the minors who can play IF and OF.

Again, we need Moya or Jones to become a major league player as we attempt to develop pitchers and position players for 2016 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

I'm finally giddy hopeful on the Tigs pitching w/out having to trade the farm for July help.

Beside Fulmer, we have prospects like Norris, Boyd, Rondon [[please this be the year), high ceiling reliever in the minors, Jimenez, and hopes for comebacks by Sanchez and Greene.

If say two of Norris, Boyd, Rondon and Jimenez come through big we'll be okay. That would be the one starter and one reliever we need without going out on the trade market and deplete the minor league prospects

Also have a very good prospect, JaCoby Jones, in the minors who can play IF and OF.

Again, we need Moya or Jones to become a major league player as we attempt to develop pitchers and position players for 2016 and beyond.

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Not sure how you figure we only need one starter. Right now we have 3, including Fulmer, whose innings will be limited this year. We are paying Sanchez and Pelfrey 24 million combined this yr. and next. Neither can pitch. Boyd has shown nothing so far, typical soft tossing lefty. If Norris sticks, which is a big if since he hasn't pitched well at Toledo, that still leaves us at 4 starters.

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Originally Posted by 401don

Not sure how you figure we only need one starter. Right now we have 3, including Fulmer, whose innings will be limited this year. We are paying Sanchez and Pelfrey 24 million combined this yr. and next. Neither can pitch. Boyd has shown nothing so far, typical soft tossing lefty. If Norris sticks, which is a big if since he hasn't pitched well at Toledo, that still leaves us at 4 starters.

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I assume Norris will be a #4 or 5. I believe Detroit thinks he is ready to show what he has.

I'm hoping, and I'm being an optimist, that Sanchez is ready to contribute as a starter again. I don't believe he is washed up.

Pelfrey will be the #5 if Norris or Sanchez bomb as starters.

I have Greene remaining in the 'pen and I expect that Jimenez a minor leaguer who just might be what we hoped Rodon would have become by now.

What I'm getting at is that we have MANY pitchers who have MLB potential to be starters or relievers and just need a few to come through.

It could be Norris, Sanchez, Boyd, or Pelfrey as starters.

It could be Greene, Rondon, Jimenez, etc. as relievers.

It did look like we were going to be in better shape after the trades last year and, yes, we would be in even worse shape without them. But the fact that Sanchez has proven he is over the hill, not just injured, as well as going out and signing Pelfrey, which shocked everybody, especially the Twins, who wouldn't have had him back for free, has left us still very thin. The good news is after 2017 we will hopefully have Fulmer and Burroughs or Norris in the rotation at a much cheaper price.

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Originally Posted by 401don

It did look like we were going to be in better shape after the trades last year and, yes, we would be in even worse shape without them. But the fact that Sanchez has proven he is over the hill, not just injured, as well as going out and signing Pelfrey, which shocked everybody, especially the Twins, who wouldn't have had him back for free, has left us still very thin. The good news is after 2017 we will hopefully have Fulmer and Burroughs or Norris in the rotation at a much cheaper price.

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I'm hopeful the Tigs can get younger and lower their salary load based on the youth they have [[largely obtained in trades).

I agree that Fulmer and Norris can hold down two slots as reasonable salaries. I think Burroughs is say two or three years away.

Rondon or Jimenez have a chance to make it as a reliever and replace Lowe. Jimenez just might have a really high ceiling.

Moya might some day replace V-Mart as a DH and maybe back up to Miggy at 1B. I just don't see a player as tall as him being an agile defender in the OF.

Jones has a chance to make a significant contribution as a good hitting utility player in both the OF and IF.

I tend to withhold judgement on prospects like Burroughs, Stewart, and Manning who are all at least two or three years away [[Manning could be four).

If I were Avila I wouldn't trade any prospects next month. Go with what we have and add free agents during the off season.

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Moya might some day replace V-Mart as a DH and maybe back up to Miggy at 1B. I just don't see a player as tall as him being an agile defender in the OF.

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Moya reminds me of former Tiger Tony Clark. He is big, 6'7 240 lbs, but he made a nice running catch towards the stands, in tonight's game, as well as hitting 2 homers. I bet he's faster than Miggy though. :D

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Originally Posted by 401don

Not sure how you figure we only need one starter. Right now we have 3, including Fulmer, whose innings will be limited this year. We are paying Sanchez and Pelfrey 24 million combined this yr. and next. Neither can pitch. Boyd has shown nothing so far, typical soft tossing lefty. If Norris sticks, which is a big if since he hasn't pitched well at Toledo, that still leaves us at 4 starters.

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I don't think that the Tigers need to replace Pelfrey. He is an average serviceable 4/5 starter who usually gives us a chance to win. His W/L record looks bad, but that has a lot to do with the incredible lack of run support in his starts.

He had a bad game on Monday, where he gave up 6 earned runs in 5 innings, but he had been decent in his previous 7 starts:
6 IP - 4 ER
6.2 IP - 3 ER
6 IP - 2 ER
5.2 IP - 0 ER
6 IP - 4 ER
5.1 IP - 2 ER
5.1 IP - 2 ER

That is a pretty decent string of games for a 4th/5th starter. You can't expect a team to have 5 dominant starters with sub- 4 ERAs. It's just not something that happens often, especially in the AL.

Cleveland isn't the Tigers "Whipping Boys" this year. They've beat Detroit 8 straight times. Might be the city of Cleveland year, Cavaliers win the NBA title, now the Indians have the 2nd best record in the AL, behind Texas, who's also a surprise.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Cleveland isn't the Tigers "Whipping Boys" this year. They've beat Detroit 8 straight times. Might be the city of Cleveland year, Cavaliers win the NBA title, now the Indians have the 2nd best record in the AL, behind Texas, who's also a surprise.

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Crazy season for Tigers. And crazier for CLE. I can't believe any team beating any .500 team 9 out of 9 [[I'm assuming a loss today). CLE aren't exactly the NYY of old.

Lose 3 straight to K.C., beat SEA 4 straight, and then lose 3 straight to CLE.

Sweeps are not common [[the K.C. games weren't a sweep, though).

9 straight losses now. Cleveland is getting great pitching and timely hitting. Because frankly, that lineup doesn't put fear in anybody, except maybe Lindor, Napoli and Santana. But that rotation, is probably the best in the AL. And they are doing it without possibly their best player, Micheal Brantley on IR.

The White Sox hit 7 homers yesterday, a team record, and lost. Verlander tried to top that by giving up 4 in one inning, also a team record. Sanchez and Zimmerman were almost as bad the other games. Still giddy about our starting pitching emu steve?

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Originally Posted by 401don

The White Sox hit 7 homers yesterday, a team record, and lost. Verlander tried to top that by giving up 4 in one inning, also a team record. Sanchez and Zimmerman were almost as bad the other games. Still giddy about our starting pitching emu steve?

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I don't think sports folks should be providing expert commentary on the Tigers.

Maybe we can get some help from the psychiatric community. Think bipolar [[fmr. known as manic-depressive).

This team lost 3 straight. Won 4 straight. Lost 3 straight.

I don't know what to make of this team... :confused::confused::confused::confused: What I think today is not the same as what I thought Thursday and may not be what I think say this coming Thursday...

This team is exactly where it should be - at .500. It's a good example of why you can't buy a championship. You can add a couple of key pieces to a contending team through free agency but you can't buy a contender. A championship team is usually young, athletic players who are peaking at the same time. i.e. Morris, Petry, Trammell, Whittaker, Gibson, Parrish. The current team is a bunch of non-athletic everyday players who can't steal a base, can't go 1st to 3rd, hit into tons of double plays and therefore can't scratch out a couple of runs against a good pitcher. How many series have they put up 10 runs against the no. 5 starter and lost the other 2 games without scoring more than 1 or 2 runs?
Verlander & Zimmerman are both solid no. 2 & 3 starters but the Tigers no longer have an ace who can go deep every 5 days. The bench is a complete joke. VMart is a DH only and yet we still carry 13 pitchers and have no 4th outfielder on the roster! Instead we have 2 utility infielders who are exactly the same player. Your bench should be made up of a mix of players - a guy who can hit the odd home run, a guy who can steal a base, etc. We basically traded Rajai Davis to Cleveland for Mike Aviles. Davis, playing part-time, has about the same homers and rbi as Upton and has 21 stolen bases. In summary, there are better ways to spend 200 million dollars because this group is going nowhere.

Spoken like a true fan......:D I agree, this team has more holes than swiss cheese. Sanchez and Pelfrey, might as well be DFA'd for what they are contributing to the team. I'll give JV a pass for today. He just couldn't locate his pitches, it happens as he had been pitching pretty well. As said earlier, AS and MP are just taking up roster spots at this stage. Call up some young pitchers, they surely can't be any worse.

Ausmus sucks! No other team would've hired him, and any team would have canned him by now.

Nice balanced article in the Detnews.

Yes, there are arms and legs with plenty of miles on them, but there are players coming into their prime and there appears to be a fairly good supply of good prospects.

This team could go any which way. It could come together this year or next or it might get old all at once.

We'll see and that is why they play the game to see how things play out.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...core/86435590/

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Crazy season for Tigers. And crazier for CLE. I can't believe any team beating any .500 team 9 out of 9 [[I'm assuming a loss today). CLE aren't exactly the NYY of old.

Lose 3 straight to K.C., beat SEA 4 straight, and then lose 3 straight to CLE.

Sweeps are not common [[the K.C. games weren't a sweep, though).

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And a 2-game sweep of Miami which is a .500+ team.

So the last 3 series, Seattle, CLE, and Miami have been sweeps but end up 6 - 3 at home.

As a writer [[forgot who) wrote, this season has been STRANGE!!!

I like the 'factoid' I heard on the radio today: Tigers are 39 -29 [[now 40 - 29) when not playing CLE.

Of course, the 2016 Indians, are successors to the 1927 and 1961 N.Y. Yankees but we just don't realize it, yet. Lol...

^^ I'm not sold on Cleveland just yet. They'll cool off, they go to Toronto next, which won't be easy, they can rake.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

^^ I'm not sold on Cleveland just yet. They'll cool off, they go to Toronto next, which won't be easy, they can rake.

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I agree. Even though the season is almost 1/2 over, I'm not convinced they are a 'great' team.

They are PLAYING GREAT now but that doesn't mean they are a GREAT TEAM. Teams get on rolls [[positive, CLE or negative, Twins) and they continue for a while.

This isn't the NBA with the GS Warriors, a great team [[despite game 7). It is MLB where there are a lot of good teams and we'll see whom is 'best' in October.

In October we'll find there are a lot of good teams and the WS is a crap shoot. I believe K.C. was 11:1 in Vegas March 2015 to win the 2015 WS.

Las Vegas odds on the 2016 World Series as of June 30:

If I remember my probability class correctly [[many years ago), odds equate to probabilities.

E.g., a coin flip is 1:1 and probability of a specific outcome is 1/2.

A die is 5:1 and the probability of a specific outcome is 1/6.

Indians 10: 1 would be 1/11 or about 9%.

Even the Cubbies are less than a 25% chance to win the World Series...

Sat through that entire 6 hr/19 inning Jays/Indians game yesterday. Would of ruined my Canada Day if the Tigers didn't win last night. You know things are going well for Cleveland when they can use both Joba Chamberlain and Tom Gorzelanny and still win the game. I didn't know these guys were still pitching, let alone for the Indians.

With the Tigs leading the Indians big late, I think we can say the Tigers will be above .500 at the all-star break [[they should be +5 after today's game).

I believe Vegas had Tigers at 81 1/2 Ws, so we'll be ahead of expectations at the break.

With the Tigs leading the Indians big late, I think we can say the Tigers will be above .500 at the all-star break [[they should be +5 after today's game).

I believe Vegas had Tigers at 81 1/2 Ws, so we'll be ahead of expectations at the break.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

With the Tigs leading the Indians big late, I think we can say the Tigers will be above .500 at the all-star break [[they should be +5 after today's game).

I believe Vegas had Tigers at 81 1/2 Ws, so we'll be ahead of expectations at the break.

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Now 1 game out of a wild card slot. Four more road games and then the back half of the season starts with the Tigs having many more home [[rather than road) games on the schedule.

I count 19 home games in August. :D Nine road games!!!

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Originally Posted by Ray1936

Las Vegas odds on the 2016 World Series as of June 30:

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I was in Vegas for March Madness [[I have to tell folks, "No the games aren't played there, but the betting on them is... :) ). I'll try to find the sheets with the pre-season odds...

Every time I watch Victor try to run my knees hurt. If he doesn't hit a home run he should just walk back to the dugout.

I was wondering if he could beat that 103 year old woman who walked the bases before the game [[guess that was it). Oh, my.

Yes, I worry about V-Mart. Don't know if his knees will heal after after the season or if he'll have chronic knee issues after he retires.

I thought I understand knees but I honestly don't know what his knee problems are. I don't remember him have ACL, MCL, etc. Beginning osteoarthritis from damage to the meniscus? Damage to the articular cartilage under the meniscus?

On a happy note, Tigers are +4 which may not so too impressive but we've played 39 home games and 49 away games.

Later this month and next month we could go on a roll.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

I was wondering if he could beat that 103 year old woman who walked the bases before the game [[guess that was it). Oh, my.

Yes, I worry about V-Mart. Don't know if his knees will heal after after the season or if he'll have chronic knee issues after he retires.

I thought I understand knees but I honestly don't know what his knee problems are. I don't remember him have ACL, MCL, etc. Beginning osteoarthritis from damage to the meniscus? Damage to the articular cartilage under the meniscus?

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His knees will probably never totally heal. He's had two surgeries, don't know if both were on the same knee. Osteoarthritis is real, and periodic pain and stiffness is the norm, especially as you age.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

His knees will probably never totally heal. He's had two surgeries, don't know if both were on the same knee. Osteoarthritis is real, and periodic pain and stiffness is the norm, especially as you age.

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Yeah, my bad forgetting his surgeries.

I don't doubt that he has osteo in one or both knees after those ACL, etc. surgeries [[esp. if the meniscuses were badly torn in the ACL).

I was a marathon runner for many years. I had a torn meniscus in one knee which ended my marathon running but I could still run.

Then a few years later I tore the menicus in the other knee, worse, and that finished my running. almost 10 years later my osteo is 'moderate' and in time will need the knee replaced.

I understand what osteo can do to ability to run... :[[

I'd guess a lot of those athletes with torn ACL will become knee replacements [[many) years down the road...

^^ Same here, and I'm no athlete. Unfortunately, had to quit my job, because it limited me from doing normal things, such as walking between stations. Some days, my knees feel great, and on others, I walk like I'm 85 years old. The cold weather here, really effects them, why so many people move to warmer climates. V-Mart will have plenty $$ in retirement, so those knees won't hurt too bad. ;)

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

^^ Same here, and I'm no athlete. Unfortunately, had to quit my job, because it limited me from doing normal things, such as walking between stations. Some days, my knees feel great, and on others, I walk like I'm 85 years old. The cold weather here, really effects them, why so many people move to warmer climates. V-Mart will have plenty $$ in retirement, so those knees won't hurt too bad. ;)

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This comment pertains to all with knee issues, namely, is cortisone shots appropriate for them.

My orthopedic surgeon can give me a shot if I need it [[I've only had several).

Works well for me. When it doesn't work and the knee gets much worse than I'm a surgery candidate.

I'm curious if V-Mart gets cortisone shots [[they should be used sparingly).

Emu, I've tried cortisone shots and they do work well, however, at $150.00 per shot every 3-4 months, it can get to be a expensive proposition. My insurance doesn't cover them. If they continue to bother me, I guess a replacement is forthcoming.

Attachment 31087

Sweep in Bean Town...

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Attachment 31087

Sweep in Bean Town...

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yeah I certainly didn't see that coming, not after my horrible Chicago vacation this past weekend - heat, storms, traffic nightmares, flooded freeways and losing 3 games on their last at bat.

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Originally Posted by 401don

yeah I certainly didn't see that coming, not after my horrible Chicago vacation this past weekend - heat, storms, traffic nightmares, flooded freeways and losing 3 games on their last at bat.

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Baseball is a little like Wall Street, never know what any particular day will bring.

Now they have a pretty good Houston team, coming in Friday. Hope they can keep it going. And what in the hell has happened to the Royals?

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Now they have a pretty good Houston team, coming in Friday. Hope they can keep it going. And what in the hell has happened to the Royals?

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Royals. Injuries???

Talking of injuries we beat Boston three games without 4 players, including 2/3s of our starting OF.

We don't have great starting pitching or great relievers, but when we get J.D., Cameron, Zimm and Norris back we have enough talent to be competitive and a real shot at October.

It's almost August and they're still right in the race, not just for the wild card either. Their keeping it interesting, I'll happily settle for that.