The City of Detroit is in the process of repairing its sidewalk wheelchair ramps. But does it make sense to start with the intersections where no one lives? This one, for instance, on the east side. Who's it for?
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...89236232_n.jpg
Fed funds paying for it, if it is there it must be compliant, results of major lawsuit pretty much every city is going through this.
Why there ? maybe plans for the future not yet disclosed or less interruption etc.etc. but is is gov so if it made sense then you should be worried.
Gotcha...:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Here's a reprint of a 2010 Free Press article that answers all your questions. The bumpy portions of the ramp [["dectable warning surface") are for the benefit of the visually impaired, sort of a "braille" indicator of the crossing point. However, there are questions as to how effective they are for the totally blind. All mandated by the Federal Government to bring pedestrian crossings into compliance with the 1991 Americans with Disabilities Act.Quote:
Originally Posted by MidTownMs
Yea, I wonder if the curb is exactly what the blind would be worried about hitting in an area with demolished homes and no sidewalks.
Actually, does anyone in Detroit even use sidewalks?! Anytime I ever see people actually use them is on the main roads.
isn't government wonderful.... what an insightful use of taxpayer money.... in the picture posted above, the sidewalk leads to nowhere....
My concern is the wheel and motorized folks I see riding along in the street. I don't get it but it's not uncommon to see folks going down Woodward along with the buses [[what few buses still out there) and cars. Crazy!Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
Had a rightsizing plan been established, the unused streets could have been taken out of service.
The curbs at the corners of the unused streets could have been removed.
Streets without curbs and sidewalks at corners are exempt from the ADA rules because there is no place for truncated dome installation.
Yes, removing the curb would also cause the street to flood and facilitate further decay to the road surface.....which is kind of the point when the street is no longer in service.
Instead of money being used for demolishing a single corner. They had to be updated and brought up to code [[costing money). They may possibly receive some maintenance [[costing money). And will eventually be removed someday anyway [[costing money).
Ah, and what a shame. The corner looks nicely done. Extra control joints for a long lasting sidewalk. Shame the tens of thousands of heaved up sidewalks midblock across the city will provide a much bigger hazard to folks with disabilities. You think ADA regulations will help with that or is this all done so in the end they can say our sidewalks are all up to code?
The reason behind the sidewalk/ramp replacement is that a disabled group sued the City. This is part of the sttlement. These lawsuits happen all over the place, it is essentially a way for lawyers to get rich. Many of the new ramps replaced perfectly good old ramps that were put in place before ADA but did not have the same slope that ADA requires. However, the old ramps were perfectly able to accomodate wheelchairs.
http://www.accessiblesociety.org/top...nsolicgen.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Built-.....-a0143250948
Unfortunately, Detroit in its wisdom installed many ramps prior to 1990. The City was nearly 100 percent accessible by the mid 1980's. While it was seen as a leader then, the requirements changed.
From the Freep article.
"Even advocates for disabled people who have sued the city admit the folly of such installations. They say they are willing to negotiate with city officials and are waiting for the city to present them with a policy to modify the settlement."
Did the city ever try to modify the settlement? These sidewalks to nowhere are everywhere in the Chene area north of Gratiot. Even if they would have nogotiated a deal that would have given the money to some disabled group instead of building some of these ramps at least it would have resulted in something postive.
At least the cement contractor is making money . . . er, that is if the city pays them.
That doesn't answer the question as to why the work in being done on sidewalks nobody uses in abandoned areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Alright, all this talk of "no one" and "no where" is pissing me off. Look, just because you don't live there, and the place is shelled out and frankly hideous doesn't mean some people don't live in the surrounding area. And a disproportionate amount of these people in poor neighborhoods are disabled.
"no one" or "no where" is usually code for "middle class white people don't live there anymore" and justification to just abandon an area.
"nobody uses" and "abandoned areas" - now those are pretty sweeping statements. Can you verifty "nobody" or complete abandonment? Because you can make that civil engineering call based on flying past those areas on I-94 going 80mph?
Frankly, from a practical sense, anything to get people to use the damn sidewalks in this city is a blessing. Walking in the street is dangerous and stupid. I live in a totally in-tact, safe neighborhood and we still have roving bands of youth [[negligent parents: do you know where your children are?) walking in the street for no other reason than to be defiant little shitheads.
In my opinion, sidewalks should be up to code. Everywhere.
Most of the new ramps in the Chene area might has well have been built in front of a brickwall because that's as far as anyone in a wheelchair is going to get because of the damaged sidewalks. An able bodied person couldn't maneuver those sidewalks without spraining an ankle, not to mention the knee high grass/trees/weeds. Most of them are completely impassable for a person in a wheelchair, hence my comment about sidewalks to nowhere.
The ramps like this installed in dearborn 10 years ago already have the knobs shearing off. They don't seem to hold up.
from an engineering perspective i really don't see how the larger knobs make better grips for wheelchairs. They seem too large.
oh and they definitely make the sidewalk less accessible for roller-bladders
Whoever is doing the work isn't going to complain-federal funding = sure payment. Total waste of money though. Rip any sidewalk remains out removing any possibility of an accident.
On the other hand there are sue-happy's out there tha will find that one vacant corner in the city where the sidewalks aren't to code and deliberately "injure" themselves.
Who would pay for Sam and Joumanna's billboards if nobody "injured" themself?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
must EVERYTHING be about race.... if you look at the pic, it IS a sidewalk to nowhere - IT FREAKING ENDS TWO SLABS OUT FROM THE NEW AREA.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
I abosolutely agree Detroitpole. You're 100% correct. This was a stupid comment by a selfish person and I'm surprised no one else said something earlier in the post.
Only in one direction. The sidewalk going to the right must go somewhere. Honestly, I know it looks weird to have these curb cuts going in in desolate neighborhoods, but it's a Federal mandate. And it's one that's damn hard to argue with. DetroitPole is right, 100%. Many of the people who live where "no one" lives, are elderly or disabled. I guess it's their fault for sticking around...let's not give them adequate sidewalks for their wheelchairs...it's not like the streetlights are on anyways...Quote:
Originally Posted by Goose
I've heard people complain about these ADA sidewalks for a few years now, and it usually ends with them complaining that it was the city's choice to put them in. That is false. So there's no issue here.
Personally, my problem isn't that they are bringing up the sidewalk ramps to code. My problem is they are spending all this money bringing the ramps to code when there are large swaths of sidewalk that aren't suitable for walking on, much less accessible to people with impairments.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
If you want the sidewalks to be accessible, you start by making sure the sidewalks themselves are safe, instead of fixing the angle of attack on ramps. I understand the federal mandate and lawsuit and all that - it's the inefficiency of top-down, centralized, one-size-fits-all governing that bothers me.
I've been dealing with these ADA specs for better than 10 years now, pretty much ever since Ann Arbor got pulled into the big class action lawsuit that I believe developed from a case in Boulder Springs, CO. Man, in the world of sidewalk construction there is no bigger headache than trying to retro-fit an ADA compliant sidewalk ramp into an existing stretch of sidewalk/street corner-- Some of you may have seen the sunken landing pads sitting below the grade of the road, with ugly tall "curbs" edging the front of someone's sloping yard... The result of trying to match shit up... These things are nightmares tying into hillsides-- Requiring more time to excavate/grade, waiting on inspections, getting a legal variance when the numbers on these excessive slopes can't be made to jibe with the strict requirements of the ADA specs..... Ugh. When these jobs come up, I just tell the guys: At least you know where you'll be working the rest of the day!
From the Freep article.
"Even advocates for disabled people who have sued the city admit the folly of such installations. They say they are willing to negotiate with city officials and are waiting for the city to present them with a policy to modify the settlement."
I'm not sure what people are arguing since even the people who have sued the city speak of the ridiculousness of some of these installations.
They should have concentrated on making the main road sidewalks wheelchair accessable and safe.
Installing brand new corner ramps that lead to impassable sidewalks was beyond pointless.
It does. I never said it made sense! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
They did this in the Plum Street neighborhood around 2003, I think. All new sidewalks, all new ramps, lots of new curbs. And only four houses standing in six blocks.
And then it was all razed anyway to make room for the new MGM casino.
ADA is less about helping people than make-work and contracts for connected firms, methinks...
The ADA's intent is great. But as with most government intervention, the best of intentions lead to nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
When that nonsense is profitable for someone, that only encourages it.
City officials happy to say 'court ordered', because its a 'spend money for free' card. To fight this, it would take a brave bureaucrat or politician. Lots to lose, little to gain.
This is the natural result, when you let the judicial system become policymakers. Great results when you want them [[desegregation), stupidity when you're not watching [[this).