America's jobs are moving to the suburbs

I wonder if this is partly why our national economy is still in the doldrums?

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Jobs within 3 miles of a city center fell from 24.5% of overall positions in 2000 to 22.9% in 2010, according to a report released Thursday from the Brookings Institution. During the same time, jobs in the outer suburbs -- between 10 and 35 miles of a city's center -- grew from 40.9% in 2000 to 43.1% in 2010.

The recession halted the flight of jobs to the suburbs for a few years as industries like manufacturing, construction and retail -- businesses that thrive in a city's outer regions -- bore the largest brunt of layoffs. But by 2010, the suburbs accounted for nearly twice the share of jobs as city centers, continuing a trend that has been underway for decades. "Where the jobs are matters to the overall development of a region," sh a car, it can lead to longer commute times and more money spent on aid Elizabeth Kneebone, a fellow at Brookings' Metropolitan Policy Program. "It can impact long-term productivity."

Low-density development away from city centers can be a drag on growth for several reasons, Kneebone said.
For poorer people without access to a car, it can make it harder to physically get to a job. For those witgas.
It's also more expensive for taxpayers. Infrastructure costs can be 40% higher in low-density areas than higher ones, she said.
Innovation can also be crimped, as fewer people from similar industries get to interact with one another. Brookings pointed out in a separate report that patenting rates are higher in more densely populated locales.
Kneebone noted that not all suburban job growth is done poorly. Some metro regions, like San Francisco, have done a good job concentrating suburban job growth in specific areas, eliminating many of the potential negatives. Other regions are physically constrained from growing any more near their downtown, due to obstacles like mountains or water.
The metro regions with the highest rate of job density are San Jose, Calif.; Las Vegas; Virginia Beach; Salt Lake City and New York.
The regions with the most "job sprawl" are Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia and St. Louis.

[URL]http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/18/news/economy/suburbs-jobs/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

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I get the sense that Detroit is slightly trending towards job centralization now, but I have no data on the Metro area to substantiate.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I wonder if this is partly why our national economy is still in the doldrums?



I get the sense that Detroit is slightly trending towards job centralization now, but I have no data on the Metro area to substantiate.

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This also just came out today:

A new study finds that metro Detroit is the nation’s most sprawled job market, with 77% of jobs located at least 10 miles from the downtown core.

The Brookings Institution released its new report today showing that only 7.3% of metro Detroit’s roughly 1.4 million jobs lie within three miles of the city’s central business district. Another 15% lie within a 3-to-10-mile band from the downtown core.

The 77% of jobs that are found from 10 miles to 35 miles out — the highest percentage of decentralized jobs in any of the nation’s top 100 metro areas.

The earlier study found that only 22% of jobs in metro Detroit were within even a 90-minute ride on public transit. That ranked metro Detroit 73rd out of 100 top metro areas in the ability of residents to get to work via bus or light rail.



http://www.freep.com/article/2013041...gs-Institution

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Originally Posted by TexasT

This also just came out today:

A new study finds that metro Detroit is the nation’s most sprawled job market, with 77% of jobs located at least 10 miles from the downtown core.

The Brookings Institution released its new report today showing that only 7.3% of metro Detroit’s roughly 1.4 million jobs lie within three miles of the city’s central business district. Another 15% lie within a 3-to-10-mile band from the downtown core.

The 77% of jobs that are found from 10 miles to 35 miles out — the highest percentage of decentralized jobs in any of the nation’s top 100 metro areas.

The earlier study found that only 22% of jobs in metro Detroit were within even a 90-minute ride on public transit. That ranked metro Detroit 73rd out of 100 top metro areas in the ability of residents to get to work via bus or light rail.



http://www.freep.com/article/2013041...gs-Institution

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Yeah, I believe this is pulled from the same study that the article I posted is based on.

I would love to see the median as well as the 25th and 75th percentile annual income for the jobs in each cohort.

I am guessing that "manufacturing, construction and retail" generally make less than tech, legal, finance, accounting, marketing, and other things that tend to coalesce around a city's core. Though, obviously, not all jobs of a certain type are inner or outer jobs, there is a trend with these things.

In that sense, you would probably find that the healthiest regions enjoy greater percentages of jobs in that <3 mile from core area, as they would have more of the latter type of job above, relatively speaking.

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Originally Posted by TexasT

This also just came out today:

A new study finds that metro Detroit is the nation’s most sprawled job market, with 77% of jobs located at least 10 miles from the downtown core.

The Brookings Institution released its new report today showing that only 7.3% of metro Detroit’s roughly 1.4 million jobs lie within three miles of the city’s central business district. Another 15% lie within a 3-to-10-mile band from the downtown core.

The 77% of jobs that are found from 10 miles to 35 miles out — the highest percentage of decentralized jobs in any of the nation’s top 100 metro areas.

The earlier study found that only 22% of jobs in metro Detroit were within even a 90-minute ride on public transit. That ranked metro Detroit 73rd out of 100 top metro areas in the ability of residents to get to work via bus or light rail.



http://www.freep.com/article/2013041...gs-Institution

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ill be sure to quote this the next time someone complains when a company moves downtown instead of staying in the burbs.

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Originally Posted by southen

ill be sure to quote this the next time someone complains when a company moves downtown instead of staying in the burbs.

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Or insists that the jobs are there is the 'lazy' people in the city would just 'pull themselves up by the bootstraps'

So it appears the formula for many is :
1. Disinvest and move jobs far away from the impoverished
2. Make sure that transit is so bad that it takes hours to get to a minimum wage job 30 miles away
3. Bitch that they are just lazy and that is why they are poor
4. Sit back and feel better about yourself because you are better than those lazy, non-tax paying, welfare queens.

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Originally Posted by TexasT

This also just came out today:

A new study finds that metro Detroit is the nation’s most sprawled job market, with 77% of jobs located at least 10 miles from the downtown core.

The Brookings Institution released its new report today showing that only 7.3% of metro Detroit’s roughly 1.4 million jobs lie within three miles of the city’s central business district. Another 15% lie within a 3-to-10-mile band from the downtown core.

The 77% of jobs that are found from 10 miles to 35 miles out — the highest percentage of decentralized jobs in any of the nation’s top 100 metro areas.

The earlier study found that only 22% of jobs in metro Detroit were within even a 90-minute ride on public transit. That ranked metro Detroit 73rd out of 100 top metro areas in the ability of residents to get to work via bus or light rail.



http://www.freep.com/article/2013041...gs-Institution

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So jobs aren't near downtown, and our "mass transit" takes a long time to get somewhere. How does anyone ever get to work?

I'd be interested in seeing stats on average commute time for metro Detroit. My sense is it's better than in the cities with higher "job density".

What? Jobs are moving to the suburbs? Is this 1950? This is old news.

This has been documented ad nauseum though the works of Surgue [[Detroit...)or Gerrueau [[Edge Cities).

Detroit is a multi-nucleated region with lots of job centers. This is compounded by being a manufacturing area as well, which spreads jobs out even further.

The big issues are, as we spread out it becomes more difficult to provide transit. Do we mitigate this, or do we slow down the spread? And how?

Does this contribute to a permanent and ever growing under-class? If so, how to we reverse this?

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Originally Posted by jt1

Or insists that the jobs are there is the 'lazy' people in the city would just 'pull themselves up by the bootstraps'

So it appears the formula for many is :
1. Disinvest and move jobs far away from the impoverished
2. Make sure that transit is so bad that it takes hours to get to a minimum wage job 30 miles away
3. Bitch that they are just lazy and that is why they are poor
4. Sit back and feel better about yourself because you are better than those lazy, non-tax paying, welfare queens.

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It also pushes people away from the region. I live in the city [[Hamtramck) and work downtown. Every so often, I scan the want ads to see what's out there. If the ad is for a job in the suburbs, I pass it on by. And almost all the ads I see are for jobs in the Bloomies, Troy, etc. Do these employers understand that the idea of driving into a huge parking lot and working in some complex where I have to drive to go get lunch is not what I want to do? Some of my friends do this and tell me how miserable it makes them. At least downtown there are a lot of restaurants to go to for lunch and some places to have drinks after [[or, honestly, during) work. Then you have the chance encounters with friends downtown, which are a terrific pick-me-up on a dreary workday. Even if I were offered more money to work in, say, Novi, I don't think I'd take it.

Now, this is a matter of personal preference, but I know I'm not alone. And while I think it's important for a region to have good suburban environments, our brand of suburban triumphalism is downright off-putting. Metro Detroit seems to say to its young people: "We've raised you, educated you, prepared you for life. Now what you need to do is get a gas-guzzling car, a bigfoot house and a job in an office park, and if you don't like it, you can walk out that door!"

And so many of them keep walking out that door.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It also pushes people away from the region. I live in the city [[Hamtramck) and work downtown. Every so often, I scan the want ads to see what's out there. If the ad is for a job in the suburbs, I pass it on by. And almost all the ads I see are for jobs in the Bloomies, Troy, etc. Do these employers understand that the idea of driving into a huge parking lot and working in some complex where I have to drive to go get lunch is not what I want to do? Some of my friends do this and tell me how miserable it makes them. At least downtown there are a lot of restaurants to go to for lunch and some places to have drinks after [[or, honestly, during) work. Then you have the chance encounters with friends downtown, which are a terrific pick-me-up on a dreary workday. Even if I were offered more money to work in, say, Novi, I don't think I'd take it.

Now, this is a matter of personal preference, but I know I'm not alone. And while I think it's important for a region to have good suburban environments, our brand of suburban triumphalism is downright off-putting. Metro Detroit seems to say to its young people: "We've raised you, educated you, prepared you for life. Now what you need to do is get a gas-guzzling car, a bigfoot house and a job in an office park, and if you don't like it, you can walk out that door!"

And so many of them keep walking out that door.

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Agreed but that is what is lost in this region and on local politicans. You mind telling me [[or IM'ing me what kind of work you are looking for?)

That Metro-Detroit job market statistics was old since 2000. Job growth in Downtown Detroit is growing fast thanks to Dan Gilberts regional plan to lure small businesses to lease his properties.

And there's this weird thing going on here, where we believe that all we need is jobs -- not attractive environments, not a mix of environments, not synergy among businesses in a locale, not a historic place with heritage -- just jobs, to keep people here.

And some of the popular wisdom conflicts with itself. "We love our cars" and "Driving everywhere is so convenient." But then if a business locates in the suburbs it's all about "commute times" and "Of course they want to be close to their employees."

My point is not to bash the suburbs, but to point out that when severe contradictions enter into the "conventional wisdom" that maybe something less than rational is at work here.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

And there's this weird thing going on here, where we believe that all we need is jobs -- not attractive environments, not a mix of environments, not synergy among businesses in a locale, not a historic place with heritage -- just jobs, to keep people here.

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Well that is all we need, pretty much.

Yes, it's much better to have historic environments, interesting neiighborhoods, etc. but job growth is the key. You think people are moving to Houston or Charlotte for the history? You think job hunters give a damn that Cleveland or St. Louis are historic cities?

Rome is beautiful but the economy sucks. Frankfurt is a generic box but the economy is great. Ugly Calgary is Canada's boomtown; beautiful Halifax is Canada's laggard. Jobs overcome locational deficits.

Sometimes you get both, in the case of London, Paris, NYC, SF. You'll also get sky high prices and demand.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Well that is all we need, pretty much.

Yes, it's much better to have historic environments, interesting neiighborhoods, etc. but job growth is the key. You think people are moving to Houston or Charlotte for the history? You think job hunters give a damn that Cleveland or St. Louis are historic cities?

Rome is beautiful but the economy sucks. Frankfurt is a generic box but the economy is great. Ugly Calgary is Canada's boomtown; beautiful Halifax is Canada's laggard. Jobs overcome locational deficits.

Sometimes you get both, in the case of London, Paris, NYC, SF. You'll also get sky high prices and demand.

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I'll give you credit, Bham. You're reliable and consistent. If anyone dares to put forth an idea that challenges the status quo, you can be counted upon to provide a convenient excuse.

FWIW, the people who *were* moving the Charlotte were bankers, and could afford real estate in beautiful, historic neighborhoods like Myers Park. In Houston, it's oil people. Otherwise, both of those towns are second-rate Atlantas [[which ain't saying much).

Never mind that 20-and-30-somethings are more apt to choose a place of residence, and *then* find a job, which is quite different than the comparatively "homebound" Baby Boomers. The gist is, people want to find a place they can be happy, not just trudge to work as a soulless cog in the machine.

Again, Detroiters ignore paradigm shifts at their own peril.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Rome is beautiful but the economy sucks. Frankfurt is a generic box but the economy is great. Ugly Calgary is Canada's boomtown; beautiful Halifax is Canada's laggard. Jobs overcome locational deficits.

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Except when they don't. You must be aware of the research that shows the best and brightest of the millennial generation largely decides where it's going to live based on the environment. Then they look for opportunities there. The region is already becoming poorer and older, and it will probably become even more so unless we try to play our strengths in areas beyond merely "providing jobs." Now, what I said about millennials locating first and looking for jobs second: That's only the very best and brightest of the upcoming generation. Now, if you figure we can "overcome locational deficits" by doing anything to create jobs, and we end up attracting -- instead of the brightest -- a bunch of roofers, sheetrock hangers and widget makers, well, that's an interesting choice. I don't know why you'd choose not to try what the research says will work. Certainly any company would be eager to look at the market research, fine-tune its product for the desired consumer, and look to grow and expand its markets, yes?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

The region is already becoming poorer and older, and it will probably become even more so unless we try to play our strengths in areas beyond merely "providing jobs." Now, what I said about millennials locating first and looking for jobs second: That's only the very best and brightest of the upcoming generation. Now, if you figure we can "overcome locational deficits" by doing anything to create jobs, and we end up attracting -- instead of the brightest -- a bunch of roofers, sheetrock hangers and widget makers, well, that's an interesting choice. I don't know why you'd choose not to try what the research says will work. Certainly any company would be eager to look at the market research, fine-tune its product for the desired consumer, and look to grow and expand its markets, yes?

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Most people are afraid of what they don't know. And if the answer lies within that scary realm of the unknown, it's far easier to make excuses and blame other people than to explore the truth and have your preconceived notions debunked.

Detroit has been doing the same old shit for over 60 years. People like Bham are around to make sure that fine tradition continues unabated.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Never mind that 20-and-30-somethings are more apt to choose a place of residence, and *then* find a job,

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And then bitch because the job doesn't pay enough to cover their student loan payments plus their lifestyle.

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The metro regions with the highest rate of job density are San Jose, Calif.; Las Vegas; Virginia Beach; Salt Lake City and New York.
The regions with the most "job sprawl" are Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia and St. Louis.

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Something must be haywire with their methodology. Virginia Beach is one vast sprawlburb. You have the hotels on the beach strip, the governmental center down where Princess Anne Courthouse used to be, Oceana Naval Air Station, and some office parks. The main drag is Virginia Beach Boulevard which is a run-down, slummy version of Hall Road. Everything else is malls, strip malls, and suburban housing tracts.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

And then bitch because the job doesn't pay enough to cover their student loan payments plus their lifestyle.

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Yeah, Hermod. Despite your status as cranky old retiree, I'm guessing you are totally down with the younger crowd, and are intimately familiar with their tastes and foibles. It's only fair you bring that vast knowledge to bear on this subject. Thank you so much! ;)

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yeah, Hermod. Despite your status as cranky old retiree, I'm guessing you are totally down with the younger crowd, and are intimately familiar with their tastes and foibles. It's only fair you bring that vast knowledge to bear on this subject. Thank you so much! ;)

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Nerd, people become very flexible when exposed to the "pure green heat" of money.

If i was to open a business in beautiful downtown Lapeer and hire college grads in IT at $85K to start and English, Art history, and Philosophy majors at $60 K to start, I would have long lines going out the door making applicationsand waving resumes.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

Nerd, people become very flexible when exposed to the "pure green heat" of money.

If i was to open a business in beautiful downtown Lapeer and hire college grads in IT at $85K to start and English, Art history, and Philosophy majors at $60 K to start, I would have long lines going out the door making applicationsand waving resumes.

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So why haven't you [[or anyone else)? And do you think your example is only applicable to Lapeer? What would happen if a competing firm in say, Chicago, made the same offers?

I could be mistaken, but isn't Recruitment and Retention one of the bigger complaints of businesses in Southeast Michigan?

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Rome is beautiful but the economy sucks. Frankfurt is a generic box but the economy is great. Ugly Calgary is Canada's boomtown; beautiful Halifax is Canada's laggard. Jobs overcome locational deficits.

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Calgary may be ugly, but it has great land use controls. Last time I was there you could see a literal line where development started. Farms on one side of the street, dense development on the other.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

Nerd, people become very flexible when exposed to the "pure green heat" of money.

If i was to open a business in beautiful downtown Lapeer and hire college grads in IT at $85K to start and English, Art history, and Philosophy majors at $60 K to start, I would have long lines going out the door making applicationsand waving resumes.

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If wishes were horses ...

The info in Post #9 is very useful and I've already advised the Company we can now safely include Hamtramck in our hiring program coverage again; we should stress we have a very largel parking lot and no bars within walking distance; just to be on the safe side.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Most people are afraid of what they don't know. And if the answer lies within that scary realm of the unknown, it's far easier to make excuses and blame other people than to explore the truth and have your preconceived notions debunked.

Detroit has been doing the same old shit for over 60 years. People like Bham are around to make sure that fine tradition continues unabated.

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I find it ironic mentioning making excuses when that is all Detroit has done for 40+ years. It's racism because any white person who choses to live in the suburbs instead of Detroit is racist. It's the freeways fault for allowing people to leave the city. We should've put measures in place to force people to stay in Detroit. Then it's mortgage interest deductions for Detroit's decline or the government doesn't give Detroit enough subsidies. Detroiters continue to blame the suburbs and white folks and then wonder why they won't come back. It's not like they left all at once. Detroit had over 1 million people as late as 1990.

Speaking of what people don't know, the fastest growing cities in the US are Raleigh, Austin, Las Vegas, Orlando, Charlotte, Riverside, Phoenix, Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas. Among the 10 slowest growing cities, Chicago and New York. None of the 10 fastest growing cities would be considered urban or short of sprawl.