QLine protest

So what is it exactly this group is protesting - the will of the people who voted to turn down last year's transit millage?

"A counter-rally is planned at about the same time at Grand Circus Park and in Ann Arbor [[and later in the day in Ferndale) by the Motor City Freedom Riders, seeking to get a regional transit millage on the ballot in 2018.

“The stark contrast between the limited service the QLINE streetcar provides and the scope of our regional transit crisis is why we are demonstrating at this ceremony,” according to an announcement from the transit activist group.

The group's plans are a reminder of the failed attempt in the fall to pass a millage to support the Regional Transit Authority of Southeast Michigan's master plan, which would have funded commuter rail between Ann Arbor and Detroit, bus rapid transit and other bus services as well as transit connections between Macomb, Oakland, Washtenaw and Wayne counties." - DFP, May 12/17

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Originally Posted by 467riverfix

So what is it exactly this group is protesting?

“The stark contrast between the limited service the QLINE streetcar provides and the scope of our regional transit crisis is why we are demonstrating at this ceremony,”

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I think this line here is a dead give away.

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Originally Posted by 467riverfix

So what is it exactly this group is protesting - the will of the people who voted to turn down last year's transit millage?


"A counter-rally is planned at about the same time at Grand Circus Park and in Ann Arbor [[and later in the day in Ferndale) by the Motor City Freedom Riders, seeking to get a regional transit millage on the ballot in 2018.
“The stark contrast between the limited service the QLINE streetcar provides and the scope of our regional transit crisis is why we are demonstrating at this ceremony,” according to an announcement from the transit activist group.
The group's plans are a reminder of the failed attempt in the fall to pass a millage to support the Regional Transit Authority of Southeast Michigan's master plan, which would have funded commuter rail between Ann Arbor and Detroit, bus rapid transit and other bus services as well as transit connections between Macomb, Oakland, Washtenaw and Wayne counties." - DFP, May 12/17

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I'm just going to be a snob and say the "will of the people" was a poor and wrong will. They didn't know what they were voting for because the Yes campaign used emotion instead of cold hard facts that people need to understand because it will show them how poor Detroit will do without coordinated and better transit.

Macomb and Oakland County made the wrong decision and Detroit needs to show up to the polls. Call them out.

Now our leaders are waffling on whether it should be on the ballot in 2018. It should and the organizing Yes side needs to state facts and not play to people's emotions. The No side only had "No new taxes". The Yes side needs to say, 1) A RTA will save you from sending your money out of state to other transit projects, 2) Increase economic vitality and investment, 3) Better transit options means you could potentially leave your car at home saving you thousands in gas and car repair money, 4) Less cars on the road and investment in transit and road work can lead to better and less worn roadways.

End rant.

As I've indicated I haven't lived in MI for decades so I don't know the details intimately about regional transportation issues, but I'd think that if QLine is a BIG success it might produce some positive momentum for a regional solution.

In this regard, some might consider the QLine a 'demonstration project' so taxpayers would be able to guess whether their tax monies would be well spent.

That sounds very reasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I'm just going to be a snob and say the "will of the people" was a poor and wrong will. They didn't know what they were voting for because the Yes campaign used emotion instead of cold hard facts that people need to understand because it will show them how poor Detroit will do without coordinated and better transit.

Macomb and Oakland County made the wrong decision and Detroit needs to show up to the polls. Call them out.

Now our leaders are waffling on whether it should be on the ballot in 2018. It should and the organizing Yes side needs to state facts and not play to people's emotions. The No side only had "No new taxes". The Yes side needs to say, "A new tax will save you from 1) Sending your money out of state to other transit projects, 2) Increase economic vitality and investment, 3) Better transit options means you could potentially leave your car at home saving you thousands in gas and car repair money, 4) Less cars on the road and investment in transit and road work can lead to better and less worn roadways.

End rant.

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I don't know what your problem is. Car owners have been footing the bill for roads for years now. The issue is that the money has been put into a "General Fund" and siphoned off for other purposes instead of being used what we're paying into. My auto registration went up an additional $70 per year so I can have "better roads", and after some slight-of-hand accounting, the money was removed and the State claims they don't have enough funding for "better roads". Speaking of repairs, after 10 years, maintenance of the Blight Rail is going to be turned over to the City. How much do you think that's going to cost the taxpayers? I didn't choose to live in an overpriced shoebox so I can stare into my neighbors windows and take an elevator down to the lobby and buy $75 designer boxers. You want a choo-choo, ask Santa to bring you one for Christmas. I want to be able to go when and where I want, without breaking a tie rod end off.

Protesting the Qline because its inadequate as a form of regional transit is like protesting soup because its not bread. I am going to organize a protest of this protest.

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Originally Posted by 1953

Protesting the Qline because its inadequate as a form of regional transit is like protesting soup because its not bread. I am going to organize a protest of this protest.

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I protest....

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I don't know what your problem is. Car owners have been footing the bill for roads for years now. The issue is that the money has been put into a "General Fund" and siphoned off for other purposes instead of being used what we're paying into. My auto registration went up an additional $70 per year so I can have "better roads", and after some slight-of-hand accounting, the money was removed and the State claims they don't have enough funding for "better roads". Speaking of repairs, after 10 years, maintenance of the Blight Rail is going to be turned over to the City. How much do you think that's going to cost the taxpayers? I didn't choose to live in an overpriced shoebox so I can stare into my neighbors windows and take an elevator down to the lobby and buy $75 designer boxers. You want a choo-choo, ask Santa to bring you one for Christmas. I want to be able to go when and where I want, without breaking a tie rod end off.

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Lol cute.

My "problem" is that the this region and state have put their transportation eggs into one basket at the expense of the poor [[who can't afford to have a car but are nearly forced to because of the degradation of SMART and DDOT) and economic investment that would help us compete in the 21st century.

Attachment 33355

We need that transit!

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Lol cute.

My "problem" is that the this region and state have put their transportation eggs into one basket at the expense of the poor [[who can't afford to have a car but are nearly forced to because of the degradation of SMART and DDOT) and economic investment that would help us compete in the 21st century.

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Yet Detroit's bus service is on the skids because no one wants to get on the bus and ride with the "poor", or get on the bus, period. Let's see how the Blight Rail pans out, and how much revenue it generates. I hope they put it all in the General Fund, so we can use that for other things. Maybe improve our roads? Hope it does better than the People Remover idea.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

Attachment 33355

We need that transit!

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They need to build some street face store front with that.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Yet Detroit's bus service is on the skids because no one wants to get on the bus and ride with the "poor", or get on the bus, period. Let's see how the Blight Rail pans out, and how much revenue it generates. I hope they put it all in the General Fund, so we can use that for other things. Maybe improve our roads? Hope it does better than the People Remover idea.

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Detroit's bus service is poor because tax revenue was lost. For the first 15 years after 100% bus service, DSR/DDOT was pretty stable. It was the depopulation of Detroit that did it in. But then again even in 1975, it was ridiculous to have a city of 1.5 million people rely wholly on buses for their transit needs. CAY's subway was needed but OC didn't want "Detroiters" to come into the suburbs.

Though I'm not sure what you mean by on the skids because they've purchased new buses in the past 3 years, introduced 24 hour routes on the major lines, have new routes that didn't exist before, and partnered with SMART for RefleX.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I didn't choose to live in an overpriced shoebox so I can stare into my neighbors windows and take an elevator down to the lobby and buy $75 designer boxers.

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Why do you consider your choices uniquely deserving of taxpayer subsidy? Wouldn't it be better to support a range of different housing and transportation types [[more broadly, a range of development patterns) in order attract people and talent to the region regardless of each individual's particular preferences on how to live?

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Originally Posted by Junjie

Why do you consider your choices uniquely deserving of taxpayer subsidy? Wouldn't it be better to support a range of different housing and transportation types [[more broadly, a range of development patterns) in order attract people and talent to the region regardless of each individual's particular preferences on how to live?

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Hi Junjie, Nonsense. There is no "taxpayer subsidy" for me, in fact, just the opposite. I'm paying for what I'm supposed to be getting, and not getting it. No one subsidized my habitat purchase in Detroit, or my vehicle purchase. Plus I'm chipping in by way of gasoline tax, license and registration fees, and taxes on my habitat.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Detroit's bus service is poor because tax revenue was lost. For the first 15 years after 100% bus service, DSR/DDOT was pretty stable. It was the depopulation of Detroit that did it in. But then again even in 1975, it was ridiculous to have a city of 1.5 million people rely wholly on buses for their transit needs. CAY's subway was needed but OC didn't want "Detroiters" to come into the suburbs.

Though I'm not sure what you mean by on the skids because they've purchased new buses in the past 3 years, introduced 24 hour routes on the major lines, have new routes that didn't exist before, and partnered with SMART for RefleX.

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Good, let's see what these new idea partnership numbers show @ the end of the year. I see buses still running around the City half empty, [[or half full, depending on your viewpoint). Mu guess is they'll be pulling money from somewhere else to make payment.

If you're a regular car driver, no matter what you're paying in fees and taxes it doesn't come close to paying for the roads you use.

The True Costs of Driving
Car owners don’t come close to covering the price of maintaining the roads they use.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business...-costs/412237/

"The amount that road users pay through gas taxes now accounts for less than half of what’s spent to maintain and expand the road system. The resulting shortfall is made up from other sources of tax revenue at the state and local levels, generated by drivers and non-drivers alike. This subsidizing of car ownership costs the typical household about $1,100 per year—over and above the costs of gas taxes, tolls, and other user fees."

Attachment 33361

Around when were streetcars removed from our streets, in Detroit and across the nation?

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Hi Junjie, Nonsense. There is no "taxpayer subsidy" for me, in fact, just the opposite. I'm paying for what I'm supposed to be getting, and not getting it. No one subsidized my habitat purchase in Detroit, or my vehicle purchase. Plus I'm chipping in by way of gasoline tax, license and registration fees, and taxes on my habitat.

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Should all public transportation be eliminated because all public transportation systems are subsidized, with the possible exception of the New York subway system. Should parks and libraries be eliminated because many people don't use them?

What about all of the investment that has taken place along the streetcar line because of this streetcar? All of this investment is bringing tax dollars into the city to pay for needed services.

What is wrong with being a city/metro area that provides different transportation options and enables both urban and suburban lifestyles?

QLine is the greatest 'free lunch' [[and I am NOT using the term pejoratively) in the history of the city of Detroit. Most of the money was essentially gifted by the private sector plus DOT [[public sector, federal government money).

I don't know dollars and cents [[or millions, for that matter, :o ), but the city has put in little money into Qline. Big expense: milling and paving Woodward?

And the payoff to the city is huge. Folks can use whatever figures they want, including those into the multiple billions of dollars [[6B?) of development spending.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I don't know what your problem is. Car owners have been footing the bill for roads for years now. The issue is that the money has been put into a "General Fund" and siphoned off for other purposes instead of being used what we're paying into. My auto registration went up an additional $70 per year so I can have "better roads", and after some slight-of-hand accounting, the money was removed and the State claims they don't have enough funding for "better roads".

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Reality is a little more complicated. Per the state constitution the monies collected through the fuel excise tax [[19 cents per gallon for gas pre Jan 1, 2017; 26.3 cents post 1/1/17; ramping up over a few years, then rates increase with inflation), registrations, etc., must be used for a transportation purpose. These monies cannot be flexed to the state's general fund.

The state also collects sales tax on fuel purchases. Like all other sales tax collection, these monies do go to the general fund.

For the past two years, and for the next few years until the new gas tax reaches its full amount, the legislature has promised monies from the general fund to support transportation funding.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Speaking of repairs, after 10 years, maintenance of the Blight Rail is going to be turned over to the City. How much do you think that's going to cost the taxpayers? I didn't choose to live in an overpriced shoebox so I can stare into my neighbors windows and take an elevator down to the lobby and buy $75 designer boxers. You want a choo-choo, ask Santa to bring you one for Christmas. I want to be able to go when and where I want, without breaking a tie rod end off.

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That can has been kicked down the road.