Preservation Wayne's 2009 list of Detroit's most-endangered sites.

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October 21, 2009http://detnews.com/article/20091021/BIZ/910210330Fairgrounds, Detroit school buildings among city's most-endangered sites

LOUIS AGUILAR
The Detroit News Preservation Wayne's 2009 list of Detroit's most-endangered sites range from the city's last synagogue structure to historic Fort Wayne to the Michigan State Fairgrounds.
The city's oldest and largest architectural preservation organization will formally announce the list at its annual member event Thursday night at the renovated Whittier Park near Belle Isle. The group issues the list each year in hopes of rallying public attention to the buildings and sites.
"The most difficult task in compiling the list was narrowing the selection to only 10," said Karen Nagher, executive director of the nonprofit.
The list, in fact, contains more than 10 sites. That's because it includes dozens of vacant Detroit Public Schools buildings. This year 29 schools were shuttered, bringing the number of vacant school buildings to 85, according to Detroit Public Schools. The city's population is less than half of its peak of 1.8 million in 1950.
The list also can prompt debate about what to save in a city full of dead buildings, dwindling population and tough economics. The U.S. Postal Service counts 62,000 vacant parcels in the city.
Preservationist fan Robin Boyle, chair of Wayne State University's Urban Planning and Geography department, took exception to the list.
"The Packard Plant? Really? That's impossible" to save, Boyle said.
Boyle has said the discussion needs to focus on which buildings have become obsolete and which can be saved.
"Iconic buildings that are of importance, of course, need to be saved. The city needs to identify partnership with private enterprises that are willing to invest," he said. "But you cannot expect the city or state, with its diminished resources, to shoulder the costs and let the properties be mothballed and preserved for perpetuity."
Another building on the list, the United Artists building in Grand Circus Park, was cited because the preservation group fears owner Ilitch Holdings Inc. may be preparing to tear it down.
Not true, said Karen Cullen, a spokeswoman for Ilitch Holdings.
"We continue to market the site for redevelopment,'" she said.
There's more hope for some than others on the list. The Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue has seen an infusion of young people working to save it.
laguilar@detnews.com">laguilar@detnews.com [[313) 222-2760
© Copyright 2009 The Detroit News. All rights reserved.


There are some properties on that list that are not owned by the City. Therefore, all of you preservationists, that believed the City controlled all of the buildings downtown, have the opportunity to connect with the owners. Perhaps with the right help these buildings won't suffer the same fate as the Lafayette Building.

Preservationist fan Robin Boyle, chair of Wayne State University's Urban Planning and Geography department, took exception to the list.
"The Packard Plant? Really? That's impossible" to save, Boyle said.
Boyle has said the discussion needs to focus on which buildings have become obsolete and which can be saved.
"Iconic buildings that are of importance, of course, need to be saved. The city needs to identify partnership with private enterprises that are willing to invest," he said. "But you cannot expect the city or state, with its diminished resources, to shoulder the costs and let the properties be mothballed and preserved for perpetuity."

Interesting. Here's a guy that trains all sorts of new planners every year, including more than a couple of the favored posters here, a guy who takes students on international trips to try to shake some sense in to them about the possibilities of urban spaces, a guy who is very well respected in his field and has won numerous awards and led his students to numerous awards...will he be villified here for saying that mothballing is not a wise use of limited resource? Will he be villified for suggesting the preservation community needs to get more proactive and partner with developers? Will he be villified for snorting at the futility of some of the buildings listed? Perhaps FNemecek could use another one of his McCarthy tricks and whisper darkly about rumors of graft and embezzlement at WSU to try to get him to shut up.....

The list is interesting because of it's diversity. You have a mix of residential, commercial, religious properties, city-owned & privately-owned, in various geographic areas, vacant & occupied, in operating condition and some in ruin.

I think the lesson of this list is... what can we do to prevent a site like the Fairgrounds from evolving into a site like the Packard plant?

I look forward to discussing the list at Preservation Wayne's Annual Membership Meeting on Thursday evening [[shameless plug). Hope to see all you keyboard preservationists there! Not too late to RSVP: www.preservationwayne.org

PQZ, I was surprised that Robin Boyle was merely listed as a preservation fan. This guy's credentials are off the charts. He's pretty much the EF Hutton of Urban Development.

Kraig: Indeed Boyle is well respected and is a very unique blend of pragmatism and vision. I had the pleasure of touring Scotland with him looking at preservation as an economic development tool and looking at regeneration case studies acroos a range of cities. Glasgow in particular has done a stellar job of celebrating its architectural heritage and using it to attract the young and upwardly mobile from all across the UK. They did it in stereotypically Scottish fashion by looking at the bottom line of each and every project and making hard choices when necessary and moving on. The city leadership, whether elected, appointed or community representatives focused on solutions that maximized very scarce resources and not whinging about the hard decisions. Look forward. Do what is necessary. Move on.

And ya know what? By being pragmatic, focused and market driven they have been able to actually get projects done and save a significant portion of their history. They don't waste their time and energy on obsessively revisiting past decisions and trying to save every little cobblestone.

Its amazing, when you stop talking and start doing, things get done.

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Originally Posted by PQZ

Will he be vilified for suggesting the preservation community needs to get more proactive and partner with developers? Will he be vilified for snorting at the futility of some of the buildings listed? Perhaps FNemecek could use another one of his McCarthy tricks and whisper darkly about rumors of graft and embezzlement at WSU to try to get him to shut up.....

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There's no need to vilify Robin Boyle for this or anything else. PW thinks that the Packard Plant can be saved; Mr. Boyle doesn't. There's no need to vilify anyone over something like that.

As for "McCarthy tricks" and "whispering darkly", that is total malarkey. We both know that I rarely whisper about anything.

When I see something that reeks of corruption - such as the DEGC's decision to spend more than $125,000 to put plywood over some of the broken windows in the Metropolitan Building [[which works out to approximately $700 per window for a simple board up) - I make specific and vocal allegations. More importantly, I back them with numbers, cite my sources and do it all in a public forum where anyone can question or refute them.

If any of that sounds like a McCarthy trick then you obviously don't know much about McCarthyism.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

There's no need to vilify Robin Boyle for this or anything else. PW thinks that the Packard Plant can be saved; Mr. Boyle doesn't. There's no need to vilify anyone over something like that.

As for "McCarthy tricks" and "whispering darkly", that is total malarkey. We both know that I rarely whisper about anything.

When I see something that reeks of corruption - such as the DEGC's decision to spend more than $125,000 to put plywood over some of the broken windows in the Metropolitan Building [[which works out to approximately $700 per window for a simple board up) - I make specific and vocal allegations. More importantly, I back them with numbers, cite my sources and do it all in a public forum where anyone can question or refute them.

If any of that sounds like a McCarthy trick then you obviously don't know much about McCarthyism.

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Apparently you have not bothered to ask the DDA for a copy of the contract to see exactly what was covered in the $125,000. Instead you have chosen to simply take a couple random facts and deduce corruption and falsely accuse people. Instead you continue to accuse public agencies of coverup when you can't get off your fat lazy ass and make a basic phone call or two. Sounds like McCarthyism to me

Seeing as that contract, which I personally supervised, was nearly five years ago, the exact numbers are a bit fuzzy. However, the contract included the following items.

1. Closure of the alleyways on both sides of the Metropolitan and temporary relocation of trash dumpsters. This includes temporary fencing and alley closure permits and renting space for the relocated trash dumpsters as the alleys were, well, closed. Also temporary closures of parts of John R. including signage, flagmen and all other required safety measures.

2. Removal of debris that had fallen off the building.

3. Investigation by engineers and architects to assess the potential for further spalling and delamination of architectural elemenents from the building.

4. Devising an immediate solution to the loose facade materials, whether physically removing material from the buildings or fashioning tiebacks / other securing systems to prevent further decay

5. Mobilizing man-lifts capable of reaching 15 stories and implementing the facade stabilization program which included strategic material removal and installation of material securing systems.

6. Removal and replacement of collapsed and vandalized plywood coverings on the first floor of the building

7. Removal of vegation from the roof of the building.

8. Designing, fabricating and installing some 175 - 200 or so plywood window coverings over windows that were broken. Each covering required two sheets of marine grade plywood, 2X4 framing, 2X6 anchor systems, painting and, to ensure the safe installation a work crew of three people. The covering systems had to be assmbled off site, trucked in and lifted in to place.

9. Temporary installation of all necessary work infrastructure such as generators, lighting, portajohns.

The EJG bid was one of four that were solicited. One firm declined to respond. The others, Western Waterproofing and ???? were both well in to the $250,000 range.

So fuck off. Get your facts in order before you shoot your mouth off about corruption and embezzlement.

What amazes me is that you have not lifted a meaningful finger to do a damn thing in the City preservation wise yet you feel utterly entitled to make false and public accusations about corruption when you have incomplete facts - against the very people that went out and actually did something about you precious little Book Cadillac. You're nothing but a fraudulent little coward.

So theres' my numbers, where are yours and where are your citations?

What PQZ forgot from his long ago RFP was that #10 required the successful bidder to become a corporate member of Preservation Wayne.

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Originally Posted by detourdetroit

What PQZ forgot from his long ago RFP was that #10 required the successful bidder to become a corporate member of Preservation Wayne.

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Well, that changes everything.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some t-shirts to go print.

I think that the purpose of the Preservation Wayne list was buried within the article in this statement....

"The list also can prompt debate about what to save in a city full of dead buildings, dwindling population and tough economics."

I agree that the Packard Plant is a low priority item in these days of "scarce preservtion dollars". And it certainly wouldn't be in my list.

"I think the lesson of this list is... what can we do to prevent a site like the Fairgrounds from evolving into a site like the Packard plant? "

AroundTown, well stated. It's a good question... do we mothball/secure as much as we can, or do we just let it go the way of other sites. I'll see you at the PW meeting tomorrow.

The news article incorrectly mentioned the meeting will be at Whittier Park... it will be at the Whittier Hotel! [[Looking forrward to seeing the interior...)

Well... so far Professor Boyle's name remains unbesmirched... ;)

Thanks, Gistok. Looking forward to seeing you.

The Whittier Park is correct, as that is the newer name. The Whittier Hotel is out of business ;)

Whats so wrong with being a McCarthy?

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Originally Posted by AroundTown

Thanks, Gistok. Looking forward to seeing you.

The Whittier Park is correct, as that is the newer name. The Whittier Hotel is out of business ;)

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LOL... thanks AroundTown, see you there... they only mentioned "Whittier" on the invite! :D

I would like to vilify Mr. Boyle, because I don't want to see Detroit lose any significant historic structures.

""The Packard Plant? Really? That's impossible" to save, Boyle said."

My thoughts exactly. Ditto Lee Plaza.
In my opinion, putting those two on the list makes PW look like it doesn't have a clue. Just my .02.

The Packard community [[auto buffs loyal to Packard) has no interest in the plant now that all historical portions have been removed and the building so completely wrecked. It needs to come down, and no one knows who will pay for that. The city and state killed it, it was in OK shape [[not good, not great, just OK) before the 1999 pogram began.

^also it was somewhat in productive use at the time too. Big scam on this one. If I remember correctly, an Archer family member/relative championed that they could tear it down for 5 million. I never knew buildings were designed to withstand corruption.

buildingsofdetroit- PW isn't saying the Packard plant can or should be saved. They're just trying to bring attention to the site. Buildings on the list are in a variety of states between current use and a lost cause.

Including the Packard on the list opens up the difficult discussion about at what point the preservation community should abandon hope for a particular site. And what happens after something is acknowledged to be "beyond hope"? And how do we prevent other sites from getting to that point before it's "too late"?

That is why it is on the list. [[Great blog, by the way)

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Originally Posted by AroundTown

buildingsofdetroit- PW isn't saying the Packard plant can or should be saved. They're just trying to bring attention to the site. Buildings on the list are in a variety of states between current use and a lost cause.

Including the Packard on the list opens up the difficult discussion about at what point the preservation community should abandon hope for a particular site. And what happens after something is acknowledged to be "beyond hope"? And how do we prevent other sites from getting to that point before it's "too late"?

That is why it is on the list. [[Great blog, by the way)

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1. What purpose does that "attention" serve? Will it advance the demolition of a dangerous structure? Will it advance the renovation of the structure? It seems with all the abandoned and challenged building in Detroit, simply pointing out that, yep, here's one that has been all over the new lately serves no purpose except to waste time and point out the obvious.

2. After what, 20 years of existence? and having a board comprised of the luminaries of preservation, PW still hasn't gotten their act together on understanding when a structure might be "too far gone?" What the hell has the organization been doing the last 20 years?

Come on people, this shit isn't new.

While PW and others sit around and navel gaze, things are happening right under your noses. Man the fuck up and start doing something besides talking to each other and wringing hands over the people who are taking action. The time for talk was 25 years ago. Get moving on real and meaningful action on something besides a two - bit local version of the NTHP endangered building schtick. Pick one or two buildings that are really important and have a chance at being salvaged and HELP.

Sometimes it is hard to help when the lying inept powers at be are in bed with a single developer and will do what ever that developer says.

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Originally Posted by rjlj

Sometimes it is hard to help when the lying inept powers at be are in bed with a single developer and will do what ever that developer says.

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So true, so true.

If only the city enforced tax collection and building code violations against that developer instead of hornswoggling the State to overpay $3.3 million for a building the developer has already destroyed and if only the city didn't allow the same developer to hang a three acre billboard on the side of a historic building ...and then not follow through on predevelopment work.

Oh well, maybe that developer can throw a few dollars at the Leland so Detroit Dad can get a semi functioning elevator.

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Originally Posted by PQZ

1. What purpose does that "attention" serve? Will it advance the demolition of a dangerous structure? Will it advance the renovation of the structure? It seems with all the abandoned and challenged building in Detroit, simply pointing out that, yep, here's one that has been all over the new lately serves no purpose except to waste time and point out the obvious.

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Are you really that daft that you don't comprehend what purpose "attention" serves?

Would Orchestra Hall still be around had one of DSO's musicians not brought ATTENTION to the fact that it was going to be torn down for a pizza joint?

Would Ferry Ave. be a stately historic home success story with "infill" housing were it not for the ATTENTION that it got as a historic neighborhood?

Would the United Artists Building still be an open-to-tresspassers Hobo-Hilton had the National Trust not brought national ATTENTION to how the Ilitch's were "maintaining" their building?

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Originally Posted by PQZ

2. After what, 20 years of existence? and having a board comprised of the luminaries of preservation, PW still hasn't gotten their act together on understanding when a structure might be "too far gone?" What the hell has the organization been doing the last 20 years?

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I guess you need to get out more often...

Would downtown loft development have started had Preservation Wayne not sponsored the Loft Development Workshops for building owners and developers?

Preservation Wayne also cleaned out tons of fallen debris from the interior of the city owned National Theatre so that it could be made presentable for developers.

Preservation Wayne gives dozens of tours to people from metro Detroit, Michigan and around the world, on the city's architectural and historic heritage.

Gotta keep it short... the Whittier is waiting...

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Originally Posted by PQZ

1. ... PW still hasn't gotten their act together on understanding when a structure might be "too far gone?"

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Actually, if you would've listened to the full PW presentation tonight, the reason that the Packard Plant was on the list was to acknowledge the fact that sometimes, even in the preservation community, we must admit when something is "too far gone". It was on the list for context, and to admit that if a building isn't made stable & secure, it'll end up as the next Packard Plant.

It's better to listen to the presentation reason instead of relying on a soundbyte.

[[PQZ, please ease up on the personal attacks. It's not contributing anything constructive or civil to the discussion)

AroundTown, I too was there and also listened to the presentation.

Unfortunately the News reporter should have done his homework and asked PW about the list instead of taking and running with it like he did.

As for PQZ... he's been like that forever... the pitfalls of the "artistic temperament"... moments of brilliance peppered with scathing critique...

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Gotta keep it short... the Whittier is waiting...

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Wonder if all the contractors that have done work at The Whittier have been paid in full?

I had a contractor tell me a very humerous story of what it took to get paid for his services.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Are you really that daft that you don't comprehend what purpose "attention" serves?

Would Orchestra Hall still be around had one of DSO's musicians not brought ATTENTION to the fact that it was going to be torn down for a pizza joint?

And who stepped up and did something? The musicians didn't just retreat to their basement to build a Lego replica of the building. They got off their asses, found donors, did the heavy lifting and worked. They didn't just stop at "attention". THEY understood they needed to take the next step and DID it.

Would Ferry Ave. be a stately historic home success story with "infill" housing were it not for the ATTENTION that it got as a historic neighborhood?

Yes, Ferry St. would still be a success because Sue Mosey, Julio Bateau and others did the heavy lifting and decades of work to make it happen. Sue Mosey and the DIA didn't need a bunch of handwringers poiting out the buildings were old and had value. They knew that - usually well before the brick snifferes showed up and peed their pants with excitement. What they needed 15 years ago was a mobilized, engaged and active preservation community that would take steps beyond printing T-shirts

Would the United Artists Building still be an open-to-tresspassers Hobo-Hilton had the National Trust not brought national ATTENTION to how the Ilitch's were "maintaining" their building?

If the UA is closed up now, I give a month before the homeless find another way back in. Instead of running to the NTHP for a temporary fix, why not work on a long term solution?

I guess you need to get out more often...

You're right. I do. I need to stop putting in the extra hours at work trying to find financing for...wait for it...the renovation of a historic theater in downtown!

Would downtown loft development have started had Preservation Wayne not sponsored the Loft Development Workshops for building owners and developers?

Yep. The DDA and GDP would still have spent their millions to buy buildings to make the loft projects happen back in the mid 90s. The DDA still would have partnered with DIF to create the Lower Woodward Hosuing Fund. When I look at loft development in downtown I see Dennis K, and we all know what he is like, Farbman, Shostak and Bates. There are a couple minor loft redevelopments that total less than 30 units. Do you mean to imply that Farbman, Shostak and Bates would not have had the vision to invest with out a loft seminar? That is a very heady clai. I'd go the other way with your argument. How is it that there is no momentum for small scale loft redevelopment downtown? I'd argue the forums were pretty ineffective. The folks that did lofts further up Woodward like Slattery and Hubbell were the folks that led the loft movcement and were the speakers for the PW forums. Overall, loft development is in a very few hands and neither the City nor PW has done much to widen the pool of investors. Perhaps PW could be doing some follow up on why loft conversion hasn't gobe gangbusters.

Preservation Wayne also cleaned out tons of fallen debris from the interior of the city owned National Theatre so that it could be made presentable for developers.

And how did that work out? Is the National being redeveloped?

Preservation Wayne gives dozens of tours to people from metro Detroit, Michigan and around the world, on the city's architectural and historic heritage.

Great. PR is always good but really, what tangible benefits are accrued by showing off buildings to other architectural buffs?

Gotta keep it short... the Whittier is waiting...

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And AroundTown, I'll ease up on personal attacks when the likes of FNemecek cease fabricating fraud rumors about myself and others.....

Look, my poinnt now and has always been that the so-called preservation community in Detroit is basically useless. It whines, it spends it time chasing its tail and wringing its hands over battles long past and does NOTHING meaningful to advance the cause. It resolutely refuses to learn from past mistakes and only antogonizes public officials, calling them names in public and encouraging false and malicious rumors. NOT ONCE in the whole Book Cadillac resoration did preservation community come forward and say: "Wow, great job, how did you do it and what can we do to help?" It instead elected to publicly insult the same people working on the Book Cadillac and file suit over the demolition of the Statler. Not once did they request a meeting to discuss the reality of the situation, to understand the economics, to listen to one of their own when Pres Kabacoff said doing the Statler would be a monumental misuse of public dollars. They instead ran screaming down the halls that the City "had no vision" and "didn't understand historic preservation"

If the preservation activist community were at a forest fire, it would yell at the firefighters for missing a tree.

Is it the same old same old, or does the preservation community want to actually do something?

[Disclaimer: There are very many talented and hard working folks who are "preservationists" who operate under the radar and do exceptional work and actually get things done. They know who they are and they know I know who they are. Without them, most of what has been accomplished in Detroit would not be there. Hat tip to them.]

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Originally Posted by PQZ

And AroundTown, I'll ease up on personal attacks when the likes of FNemecek cease fabricating fraud rumors about myself and others....

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Oh, please. You've been making personal attacks for years. I only starting complaining about the $700 per boarded up window in the past couple of months.

As for what the preservation community does or doesn't do, you know those t-shirts that you just love complaining about? When the money from them wasn't needed for the Book Cadillac, every penny of it was donated to the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy and other groups doing preservation work.

And what happened with Tiger Stadium???

George Jackson and the DEGC decided that the federal government wasn't moving fast enough on its portion of the deal so they're just going to demolish the whole thing. Now, long after the federal funds would have arrived and construction would have begun [[creating jobs for Detroiters and tax revenue for a City that needs it in the process) all we have is an empty field.

Good job DEGC!!!

You know, I used to think that you were corrupt. Today, I just think you're an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Oh, please. You've been making personal attacks for years. I only starting complaining about the $700 per boarded up window in the past couple of months.

As for what the preservation community does or doesn't do, you know those t-shirts that you just love complaining about? When the money from them wasn't needed for the Book Cadillac, every penny of it was donated to the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy and other groups doing preservation work.

And what happened with Tiger Stadium???

George Jackson and the DEGC decided that the federal government wasn't moving fast enough on its portion of the deal so they're just going to demolish the whole thing. Now, long after the federal funds would have arrived and construction would have begun [[creating jobs for Detroiters and tax revenue for a City that needs it in the process) all we have is an empty field.

Good job DEGC!!!

You know, I used to think that you were corrupt. Today, I just think you're an idiot.

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And I am sure that $300 made a HUGE difference in the efforts.

I have my own personal opinion of what happened at Tiger Stadium, but again you just proved my point.

If someone challenges the preservation community for not stepping up to the plate the kneejerk reaction is one of three...

1. Public servants are corrupt
2. Public servants are idiots.
3. Waaaaaah something happened in the past. I refuse to learn or do anything differently.

Never onmce is there reflection on what could be done better or differntly by those that profess to love historic buildings so much.

Oh, bite me. There has been plenty of reflection and learning from mistakes within the preservation community. The problem is that every time we try to do something productive in this town, the DEGC finds a way of fucking it up.

Video of urban exploring. Packard plant, Book depository, MCS and Lee Plaza.

Music by Coldplay.

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Originally Posted by Whitehouse

Video of urban exploring. Packard plant, Book depository, MCS and Lee Plaza.

Music by Coldplay.

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Whitehouse, may I ask why you decided to post a link that glorifies the violation these buildings? Do you think it's sexy or artsy to show glass windows being shattered, realtime, for the camera? Do you realize it's folks like this that degrade the buildings even farther, putting them farther down the list to be saved?

Shame on you.

I agree w/ Aroundtown. This crab about kids coming in from the suburbs to make videos of themselves smashing stuff in vacant historic buildings has to stop.

I had asked about this once -its on the list but no one seems to have mentioned it.

Is there any possible economic use ?

Is that area pretty average for Detroit as far as economy and crime?

Anyone been inside?

Who are the owners?

Are they all up for bid?

I know this must have been asked and answered; my apologies in advance, I'm formally new to the whole Historic Preservation context being a new recruit to the EMU HP program.

My question is: How [[or perhaps, why ... ) can DEGC use "corporation" as part of their acronym if they are, or at least claim on their website to be, a non-profit?

You've never heard of a non-profit corporation?

Quite frankly, no I hadn't, or may have just missed it in the past that's why I asked. Thanks for inspiring a little more in depth research on my behalf. I wasn't trying to imply impropriety on their behalf, merely curious on how groups like this are organized and operate. Chalk it up as a newbie inquiry.

The thing that's infuriating about the DEGC is that it is a quasi-public/private entity that really gets to play multiple sides in terms of disclosure and public review. However, it's scope of interest includes the allocation and disposition of public monies and property interests and there is little framework, input or interest afforded to the actual public.

"The thing that's infuriating about the DEGC is that it is a quasi-public/private entity that really gets to play multiple sides in terms of disclosure and public review. However, it's scope of interest includes the allocation and disposition of public monies and property interests and there is little framework, input or interest afforded to the actual public."

Interesting. Public/Private relationships can be problematic from what I understand. Perhaps DEGC is able to enjoy this type of fluid relationship due to no other competing entity? If so, I see opportunity.

One thing that I came across is that the Bing Group is listed as a partner on the DEGC website. Now that Dave Bing is in an administrative role as Mayor of the City of Detroit, shouldn't Bing Group kindly step aside as a means to head off any claims of conflict of interest?

You'd think so~!

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Oh, bite me. There has been plenty of reflection and learning from mistakes within the preservation community. The problem is that every time we try to do something productive in this town, the DEGC finds a way of fucking it up.

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This is true. Clearly the DEGC really fucked it up with the Book Cadillac - especially with all the effort put in to those t-shirts.

Perhaps the portion of thepreservation community that is more interested in blowing bubbles and starting malicious rumors could take a pointer or two from the folks who actually get involved and do the heavy lifting.


http://www.detnews.com/article/20091...down-buildings

This situation has been dragging out since before I left Detroit. It is instructive to me that the yutzlefutzes on this board are spending their time crying about the Lafayette but not offering to help folks like Josh and Kristine who are in the trenches "doing something."

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Originally Posted by PQZ

"...but not offering to help folks like Josh and Kristine who are in the trenches "doing something."

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Correction to PQZ: Actually, Josh was personally invited and attended PW's event, from what I heard. They are hoping to partner with him on a few things. Perhaps you should talk to him first and learn more about the situation before invoking his name?

If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation than negative attacks, please just don't post. You are criticizing others for "just talking", yet ironically, I don't see any helpful suggestions from you. And apparently, you're not in Detroit anymore, either, so I don't see how you personally are more invloved than people here.

I think it's interesting that when someone battles the City of Grosse Pointe Park, PQZ refers to them as being "in the battle" and "doing the heavy lifting".

However, when someone does the same thing with the DEGC over say the Madison Lenox, Statler Hilton, Tiger Stadium or Lafayette Building then they are "virtually useless".

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Originally Posted by PQZ

This is true. Clearly the DEGC really fucked it up with the Book Cadillac - especially with all the effort put in to those t-shirts.

Perhaps the portion of thepreservation community that is more interested in blowing bubbles and starting malicious rumors could take a pointer or two from the folks who actually get involved and do the heavy lifting.


http://www.detnews.com/article/20091...down-buildings

This situation has been dragging out since before I left Detroit. It is instructive to me that the yutzlefutzes on this board are spending their time crying about the Lafayette but not offering to help folks like Josh and Kristine who are in the trenches "doing something."

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Aren't you side-stepping the inglorious circumstances surrounding Kristine's leaving the Historic District Commission staff?

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Originally Posted by AroundTown

Correction to PQZ: Actually, Josh was personally invited and attended PW's event, from what I heard. They are hoping to partner with him on a few things. Perhaps you should talk to him first and learn more about the situation before invoking his name?

If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation than negative attacks, please just don't post. You are criticizing others for "just talking", yet ironically, I don't see any helpful suggestions from you. And apparently, you're not in Detroit anymore, either, so I don't see how you personally are more invloved than people here.

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And that is just my point. PW has been around for a very long time. By now they should be the resource that people like Josh [[ a personal friend for many years) are going to for help. It shouldn't be community developers coming to PW to give their insight. By now PW should be the teacher not the learner.

And you still don't get it. The "negative attacks" are not not about being mean. They are challenging folks to step up their game. I have given more than enough advice and ideas on this forum over the last 8 years or so, advise directly from my experience in being a project lead on efforts like the Book Cadillac. Instead of stopping and listening to what people with real life experience are saying...folks are stomping their feet and saying stop being mean and ignoring the advice. And what is the outcome? Buildings still get torn down, activists are still marginalized as a result of heir own direct behavior, resources that could be marshalled remain dormant, energy is wasted in petty bickering and not spent on actually saving buildings and perservationsist across the board become viewed as obstructionist cranks. The real collateral damage there is that the talented folks working within the system to actually get things done get painted with the same brush and that just makes things worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PQZ

And that is just my point. PW has been around for a very long time. By now they should be the resource that people like Josh [[ a personal friend for many years) are going to for help. It shouldn't be community developers coming to PW to give their insight. By now PW should be the teacher not the learner.

And you still don't get it. The "negative attacks" are not not about being mean. They are challenging folks to step up their game. I have given more than enough advice and ideas on this forum over the last 8 years or so, advise directly from my experience in being a project lead on efforts like the Book Cadillac. Instead of stopping and listening to what people with real life experience are saying...folks are stomping their feet and saying stop being mean and ignoring the advice. And what is the outcome? Buildings still get torn down, activists are still marginalized as a result of heir own direct behavior, resources that could be marshalled remain dormant, energy is wasted in petty bickering and not spent on actually saving buildings and perservationsist across the board become viewed as obstructionist cranks. The real collateral damage there is that the talented folks working within the system to actually get things done get painted with the same brush and that just makes things worse.

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Sorry, but your response makes no logical sense at all, given my correction. The preservation community is moving forward, trying to build stronger relationships and thereby having more strength in numbers. Yet you still choose to criticize, even after you hear people are trying to collaborate & work together.

You're right... I guess I "still don't get it".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PQZ

And you still don't get it. The "negative attacks" are not not about being mean. They are challenging folks to step up their game. I have given more than enough advice and ideas on this forum over the last 8 years or so, advise directly from my experience in being a project lead on efforts like the Book Cadillac. Instead of stopping and listening to what people with real life experience are saying...folks are stomping their feet and saying stop being mean and ignoring the advice.

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Oh, yes. The Great Swami of North Carolina has spoken.

Please tell us simpletons, oh noble wise one. Which piece of your unsolicited advice did the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy not follow?

Did they not attend enough meetings?

What was the error of their ways that caused our Dear Leader to smite them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Oh, yes. The Great Swami of North Carolina has spoken.

Please tell us simpletons, oh noble wise one. Which piece of your unsolicited advice did the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy not follow?

Did they not attend enough meetings?

What was the error of their ways that caused our Dear Leader to smite them?

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Lack of actual [[real) money and a realistic plan.

The OTSC had real money from the feds. The money was approved and working its way through a federal bureaucracy. They move on their own time table.

If the DEGC had been willing to allow that to happen then there would be a couple hundred people at work on a job site right now. Instead, we have an empty field.

But, hey - it's not like Detroiters need jobs or anything.

So, why not wait a few weeks for the feds?

LOL a fight has broken out here. All I wanted was info on that nice Abysinnian Church or what's left of it on 8501 Woodard. Its not on the DEGC site.

Churches are a bit harder to track down information because they're usually not in a many of the government databases. Since the church is no longer operating, if I recall correctly, you might want to make an inquiry to the leadership of the Church of God in Christ. http://cogic.net/cogiccms/default/

They might be able to tell you more about the site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

The OTSC had real money from the feds. The money was approved and working its way through a federal bureaucracy. They move on their own time table.

If the DEGC had been willing to allow that to happen then there would be a couple hundred people at work on a job site right now. Instead, we have an empty field.

But, hey - it's not like Detroiters need jobs or anything.

So, why not wait a few weeks for the feds?

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Like I said, no REAL money. Just promises. There's a difference between appropriation and allocation. All the difference in the world, actually.

Stosh:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you haven't had much experience dealing with the federal government.

I'll just say this: if an appropriation bill is passed by both houses of Congress and is signed into law by the President, most people would call that "real money", even if it hasn't arrived yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Stosh:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you haven't had much experience dealing with the federal government.

I'll just say this: if an appropriation bill is passed by both houses of Congress and is signed into law by the President, most people would call that "real money", even if it hasn't arrived yet.

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No, thankfully, I haven't. But the question still remains. Despite the claims of the OTSC that the money will come, it still hasn't been allocated. And I'm betting that it never will. Just like all the money that was collected sitting in the OTSC bank account. Where will that be spent? On what? And how?