http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23...nd-rich-remark
He clearly stuck his foot in his mouth.
Him and Bill Nowling can walk it back as much as they want, words are words. Death of the author and all that.
It's also becoming increasingly obvious Orr isn't nearly as "brilliant" as his cheerleaders keep trying to jedi mind trick people into believing.
I liked it. He spoke the truth, and he can do that because he doesn't have to get elected.
Detroiters sure are an easily-offended bunch. Kudos to Orr for not getting pulled into this nonsense. Also, LeDuff is a tool who should be working for a tabloid or something, not a legitimate news network.
Give the guy some slack. He didn't mean dumb, lazy etc; he only said dumb, lazy etc. How many times does he have to apologize for getting it wrong and right? I'm sure he's aware the vast majority are brilliant, energetic, sad and poor and he was only referring to the dumb, lazy, happy, rich that oppose him [[on the Council).
Since when has Faux 2 become a "legitimate Noose Network'?Quote:
Originally Posted by artds
Detroiters are mad and Orr is not a politician. That is the only reason I can come up with for the media and residents taking what is essentially a true statement and not putting it into its true context within the long article in which it was contained. Orr didn't nor should he apologize for what he said. Orr is not going to get the benefit of doubt among the people. Orr can do many things right and he has already but as soon as there is a misstep how ever small, that will be held up as the reason why Orr is the bad guy. Orr's batting average for getting things done is already higher than Detroit's elected officials. That's an indictment on our political leadership and that's what people should really be mad about.
Foot: Not at all. He spoke the truth. He's quite right. The white power structure of Detroit back in the 30s-50s was dumb, lazy, happy, and rich. That's why we had riots and financial collapse.Quote:
Originally Posted by brizee
But it does make a good sound bite to attack him when you take it out of context. Enjoy.
Brilliant: Doesn't matter. He's the boss now. Seems to be doing OK walking through a minefield. You'll probably think he's much less brillliant when he gets around to your ox.
Exactly how was the "white" power structure dumb, lazy, happy and rich. That is very broad statement. Just like Orr you through it out and expect everyone to accept it without any real proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Also policies of the 60's through now did not contribute to the problem? You must be joking!
^^^ +1Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Thank you so much for this post. It really captures the essence of Orr supporters. It has always amazed me just how far Orr supporters will go to justify his poor actions and misguided solutions.
If Orr does it; it's awesome and everyone else is a pansy.
It's sick, really. They just blindly follow this guy without questioning a thing.
These Orr supporter folks come across as so desperate that they will support this jerk who they didn't even directly elect.
Thomas Hobbs would have a field day with this people.
PS -- I really think that this whole "we did this to ourselves" BS is misguided and is a red herring. The Socrates bit is a little old, too.
No. I'm not joking. Well, labelling it as the 'white' power structure was for dramatic effect, but mostly true.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Like most northern industrial cities, Detroit has been hit by globalization, deindustrialization, racial tension, economic forces, and much more. What was unique about Detroit.
We were a real boom town. Much like typical mining towns on a huge scale. We were fairly modest, then then very quickly grew to enormous scale. Cleveland and Pittsburgh were old money and diversified. Detroit new money and a company town. Dramatized, but true.
When the auto industry was in full bloom, there was nothing Detroit couldn't do. $5.00 day. Employer funded health care. Union wages. 30 and out. We led the charge in so many ways. We knew how to make the world conform to us. We were dumb, lazy, happy, and rich -- and lucky.
By the 60s, Detroit's advantages were becoming its liabilities. We didn't know what to do but double down. We didn't innovate. We mass marketed our cheap, unsafe cars to the world -- while Demming and Company got Japan building quality. We were blindsided. We fought against Nader. Safety. No. We're happy and rich. We don't need safety. That's work. Were were dumb and lazy. Our unions couldn't see that work was changing. We're rich! We're not changing. No new work rules for us. The south will never build cars as good as we do. Japan -- they're a joke. This same attitude I think blossomed in government. Cavanaugh. Progressive. And he gets a riot. He was dump, lazy, happy, rich -- and didn't see the real race problems underneath. He could have truly reorganized the police department, but didn't.
Actually, the ascent to power by black politicians ended the DLHR period. They weren't dump. Coleman was brilliant. He was wrong about a lot -- but right about so much. He wasn't lazy. Just wrong. But so were most urban policies. No worse than Model Cities.
Orr's comment has little to do with those who think he's talking about them. Orr is mostly right. Let's run him out of town. We're not dumb, lazy, happy and rich.
While we're at it, let's chase anyone out of town who thinks they know how to help us. We can do it ourselves. Just look at the results.
Go away Orr, and take Snyder with you.
Since when did Fox 2 Detroit become a legitimate news network?Quote:
Originally Posted by artds
CAY was brilliant but wrong a lot? Brilliant and wrong are usually not in the same statement. Please tell us how did the accent of black politicians end the DLHR? From what we have now I do not see how their policies helped us in a "Global Economy". Also please refrain from your usual generalities and give us concrete proof.
Edited for effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
Proof? There's little proof in opinions about history. But while I chew on that....Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Many people are brilliant and wrong. I think we should get a military historian to tell us how a few brilliant people were wrong and got the asses handed to them. Brilliance is often wrong. Think about the Third Reich. Smart guys all. They were wrong.
I can accept that some of the black leaders meet the criteria. But recently they certainly haven't been [[civicly) rich.
You certainly missed the boat on that one! How did the non DLHR policies of the black power structure help the city in the new global economy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Obviously nobody was able to save the city from bankruptcy. I don't get your point. Mine is that what differentiates Detroit from others is what Orr has said. We were too successful and never adjusted to new reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Now you get it! It was not black or white but a collective effort. I did not understand all the auto company references, they have nothing to do with how the city was run.
Detroit had a prevailing attitude that the goose would ALWAYS lay golden eggs. I remember in the early 70's looking @ an American car on the used lot, and thinking "36K miles, this thing's ready to fall apart". Also, I don't know if anyone remembers "planned obselescence", or all the reports about fenders falling off, lunch bags and beer bottles stuffed in car door walls, etc., etc. I'm not after the big 3, but the point is EVERYBODY in Detroit, including the City Government, had this attitude that "the golden age" would never end. The auto makers wised up, the City Government never did. Now it's too late to cover your jewels.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Last what i find offensive is Orr's arrogance and lack of tact. Detroiters in general are not dumb or lazy. Although they can misguided. complacent, or apathetic at times. For an supposedly educated-worldly person he shows a very few of the social graces a man of his stature should possess.
I agree, this comment had nothing to do with race.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
As goes GM, so goes Detroit. The city behaved just like the auto companies. We're #1, we know it, and you bend to our will. If you think like that long enough, you will find out that you were wrong. That's been Detroit's problem.
Here's an example. I found out recently that Oakland County moved all new employees to defined contribution plans many years ago. Detroit didn't. I like defined benefit more myself -- but the reality is that it isn't sustainable -- even if you're Oakland County. So when times got tough. OC's pension plans are just fine. And Detroit's is collapsing like a Madoff ponzi scheme.
Let me briefly say here that I do think that what drove Detroit off the cliff was 90% globalization, deindustrialization, and failure to regionalize/socialize urban costs. But 10% is Detroit's fault -- and collectively we're only now starting to accept blame. Most of the problem really isn't ours. But only we can fix our 10%. So let's get on it.
Your right about about how the city acted, but to lump Detroit auto history into one nice neat statement is an extremely narrow view. The history of auto industry here in the city is far more complicated than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Also I get that changing times doomed us, but how would "regionalize/socialize" have helped the city? I would like to know your views.
What has been most appalling about this is the people who think it was perfectly fine for him to be so unprofessional [[as the writer from no less than Forbes magazine implied) and tactless, since he was "telling the truth."
The runner up for being appalling is his inability to just admit he was wrong for saying it.
Now we're supposed to believe he's talking about leadership from the 20's and 30's. Exactly what was leadership or workers from the 20's and 30's supposed to do that they didn't do? What dumb and lazy calls did they make way back then? Far from being lazy, people left their homes and traveled north to work. He specifically mentioned the pensions as part of the dumb and lazy covenant, but auto companies didn't even start pensions plans until 1949 - so try again Kevyn. I guess he picked the 20's and 30's because most of those people are dead.
Then he mentioned that leadership did issue warnings, but they weren't listened to. So, I don't even think he's talking about leaders. I think he's talking about that pesky labor class that he referred to earlier in the interview as "bullying him on the playground." Those peasants and serfs had the audacity to take him to court, so he showed them by filing bankruptcy. Read the whole interview for the best context of his comments.
Then he says to LeDuff that he has often joked about himself being "dumb and lazy, sitting on the porch with a bucket of chicken and a peach NeHi [[sp?)." He said it usually gets him a laugh. Yeah? Who is he telling that kind of joke to and why are they laughing?
I take back what I said earlier, that last part is the most appalling. Just stop it Kevyn. You never had to do this much speaking to the media before. Let's just go back to Nowling speaking for you all the time.
He's a bankruptcy lawyer. I think he's doing pretty well with his public appearances. If he's only said one thing to get him in trouble -- when there are armies of people like you seeking to dissemble every word -- I think he should get a raise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke09
Is there a perfect person out there, or is everyone fatally flawed.
Our expectation that every sentence ever uttered can be the end of someone's career just gets us sound-bites with no substance. Please let people talk and discuss things. Sometimes they'll say things that aren't perfect. Sometime's they'll be 100% wrong.
I don't want a careful leader who sounds pretty but is evil. I'm OK with someone real with a few warts. I was OK with Clinton and his cigar games. I'm certainly OK with a EM who is willing to talk to Charlie LeDuff. I like someone who will head into the lion's den for a good cause. Geez, at worst its a bad example. So what. Off with his head because he doesn't agree with me all the time and talk real pretty.
Umm, I think the early 20's-30's date Orr rolled out when questioned by Leduff was an artifact date cited to damage control his statements.
Who'd resonate or thether his negative comments to that time frame? The commentary comes off like he was talking about Detroit circa the last 20 years up thru his arrival.
Not 80 years ago.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch