Hold back all those rotten tomatoes you want to throw at me, I didn't write it:
http://www.freep.com/article/2009051...y+drained+city
But :D , I agree with the sentiment of it. We could work as a region and fight a common enemy, the economy, or we could just continue to do what we have done for 50 years and play every man and every job for himself. I suggest we'll probably just continue to play every man for himself until every man has left.
Let the hate begin!
When and if Warren or Sterling Heights responds by increasing their millage rates by 30 or more mills and then continues to operate with a chronic $30 million annual deficit, maybe then one could make a fair comparison to what Detroit has faced and how they have responded. Until then, the schadenfreude parties might be premature.
I think it is useful to have articles pointing out how serious the consequences of region's economic problems are going to be, since as far as I can see the governments of the region are mostly in denial. Many people find the economic trajectory of Detroit over the past 60 or so years to be very scary, so maybe explaining that many of the area's towns are heading down that path will be a useful stimulant to some kind of concerted action.
Not likely though.
It is true that Warren & Sterling Heights may collapse economically because of the presence of Chrysler and GM in those cities. It is also true that Detroit has collapsed economically. Yet the author suggests that the reason Detroit has collapsed is due to the collapse of Chrysler and GM. But isn't the headquarters of GM in Detroit, and don't both companies have a large presence in Detroit, and wasn't Detroit's collapse well under way before the current downturn in the economy? He goes on to ask:
"In the end, don’t Detroit’s problems basically go back to the interrelated factors of the disappearance of jobs, the disintegration of the city’s tax base and the erosion of its commercial activity, just like in the suburbs?"
Uh....no. Detroit's problems basically go back to the interrelated factors of the disappearance of morals, the disintegration of families and the erosion of work ethic, unlike the suburbs!
The author states that "The plight of Michigan’s largest city is often viewed from the suburbs through the lens of race, personalities, dysfunction and corruption...", but that somehow these thing have nothing to do with Detroit's problems and that it is really all a matter of economics. This is hogwash!
Quit blaming Detroit's problems on the economy or on "socioeconomic factors". Blame it on the people who choose to live the way that they do. You can go to any number of cities around the world with much greater poverty than Detroit, yet with nowhere near the social/cultural deterioration.
If the author is trying to call the attention of suburbanites to the problems in Detroit, may I suggest he instead call the attention of Detroiters to the success of the suburbs.
Perhaps the greatest oversight of the author is this quote from Coleman Young: "There is nothing wrong with Detroit that couldn't be cured by a job for anyone who wanted one." Which assumes that just because a person has a job, they will show up on time for work everyday without a hangover and will be competent to do the job, and will not steal from their employer, and will go home and be a responsible parent and spouse, and will take care of their home, and will pay their taxes and make intelligent voting decisions, and will not use drugs, etc.
Give me a break!
Go ahead, call me a racist. :rolleyes:
Retroit -- Try reading a history book.
"Uh....no. Detroit's problems basically go back to the interrelated factors of the disappearance of morals, the disintegration of families and the erosion of work ethic, unlike the suburbs!"
Yes, the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs and a million residents begininig over 50 years ago has not contributed to the state of the city.
What is unfortunate is that your posts show that you are an intelligent person but your lack of any logic in your arguments is baffling.
Political hacks don't pay attention to facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by izzyindetroit
I think Retroit believes that history began with the election of the dreaded Coleman.
Here is some information:
Population of the city over the years. Based upon your claims of 'the good times' in the city it appears that the moral decay started in 1953 when population starting decreasing at an alarming rate and ran through the sixties. Let me see if I can find you the numbers of jobs in the city.
Add in the fact that the income tax was increased in the late sixties, property taxes are higher, etc.
1920 993,678
1930 1,568,662
1950 1,849,568
1960 1,670,144
1970 1,511,482
1980 1,203,339
1990 1,027,974
2000 951,270
Name those cities that have the rate of poverty that Detroit has, but nowhere near the social/cultural deterioration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
[[RETROIT)Quote:
Quit blaming Detroit's problems on the economy or on "socioeconomic factors". Blame it on the people who choose to live the way that they do. You can go to any number of cities around the world with much greater poverty than Detroit, yet with nowhere near the social/cultural deterioration.
I would like to see a comparison or analysis that answered this statement.
First, I have a hunch that if you took Detroit and divided the annual median income by the annual median income in the USA [[to get what percent of the national income the average detroiter makes) and then compared that figure to comparable figures for any major city in ANY country, I think you'd find that compared to the national standard of living, Detroit is in terrible shape, and - when compared based on how it ranks within its nation - among the poorest major cities in the world .
Second, I have seen dozens upon dozens of cities with decay comparable to Detroit. Some are in the USA, like Memphis or Milwaukee, and some are in other countries, like Panama or any one of the Caribbean islands.
Blah blah blah, Divisiveness sells papers. Don't stoop to this level. Detroit is more than a line around a city and now is not the time to laugh at those who are sinking.
Who's laughing? I'm crying because I'll be stuck in this region long after the glorious suburbs have faced the population loss that Detroit has. Only suburbanites won't be running to Detroit or another SE Michigan suburb, but to a completely different state altogether. Retroit needs to read this article [[http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...staggers+state), since he thinks that everyone on earth is in awe of his precious suburb. I guess based on that article the suburbs need to return to work ethic and Christian morals too.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Retroit: I can accept some of what you wrote, but not all of it. I believe the decline of fatherhood or, better put, "daddyhood", in Detroit is a crisis that deserves more attention. It affects everything from the economy to the schools, but in ways that are hard to quantify.
That said, I recommend you seek more understanding. Here are three things that helped me:
1) Read "Origins of the Urban Crisis" by Thomas Segrue.
2) Volunteer a few hours each month to Focus: HOPE, Habitat for Humanity, or Southwest Solutions. Some regular interaction with Detroit's poor and some of the suburban volunteers who serve them would enlarge your perspective.
3) Finally, visit some of the churches in Detroit. The city is full of them. Churches are attempting to do some of the most innovative stuff in terms of turning around families and neighborhoods. You will find allies among them, but you will also find some things that will change your point of view on Detroit's so-called "moral degeneracy."
Irvine Laird, thanks for your response. I've read the book and fully acknowledge that there are many, many Detroiters, black and white, who are wonderful, hard working, law-abiding people devoted to their family and neighborhood. But there are also many people who do not fit this category, and I think any honest Detroiter will admit that, because they see it first-hand. It's a matter of numbers.
The article claimed economics as the sole cause of Detroit's problems and that was the focus of my response. You can find good and bad in every community, but this has less to do with income than it does with personal values. My grandparents who came from Europe were dirt-poor and faced many bouts of unemployment, yet they wouldn't stand for some of the lame "economic" excuses being thrown up in defense of bad Detroiters.
Ok, you are a racist.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
In your zealous attempt to paint Detroiters [[i.e. Black people) as people who would destroy families, suppress their souls and raise their kids to be lazy unlike the lily white suburbs perhaps you should have read the article word for word.
You said: Yet the author suggests that the reason Detroit has collapsed is due to the collapse of Chrysler and GM. But isn't the headquarters of GM in Detroit, and don't both companies have a large presence in Detroit, and wasn't Detroit's collapse well under way before the current downturn in the economy?
If you read the article word for word this is what the writer stated: The record is clear on job loss. Any number of historians have traced the flight of Detroit’s residents and jobs as far back as the 1950s, when such independent auto companies as Hudson and Packard went out of business, along with such parts suppliers as Motor Products and Murray Corp. of America.
To hammer the point home, the writer found a piece in Time back in 1961
“Detroit’s decline has been going on for a long while,” Time magazine reported in October 1961. “Blight is creeping like a fungus through many of Detroit’s proud, old neighborhoods.”
The reason for this decline?
“Auto companies merged, or quit, or moved out of town to get closer to markets,” Time said. “Automation began replacing workers in the plants that remained. In the past seven years, Chrysler, the city’s biggest employer, has dropped from 130,000 to 50,000 workers.”
I understand you wanted your say but you sound like one of those Freep bloggers. Something breaks, blame Detroit. So the next time you want to slam Blacks in Detroit for the state of affairs in Metro Detroit, might I suggest you read word for word before you decide to paint the dirty brush on poor ole Detroit.
And your grandparents, who were presumably white, did not face employment discrimation based on their race as black migrants from the South did. What kind of values do you think are passed on by someone who has difficulty finding work sweeping floors in a factory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke09
http://~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=109&start=480Quote:
Arne Duncan [[Secretary of Education) in the Detroit News:
Quote: Let me be clear: Money is a small part of what Detroit needs. Money invested in the status quo won't get us where we want to go. I'm trying to leverage this money for the change we need. But in Detroit, at every level, adult dysfunction is a huge part of what prohibits students from being successful. It's unacceptable.
Quote: We had a team [[from Chicago) that went out into Detroit [[in spring 2008). My chief financial officer and my head of technology -- these are really tough, smart guys -- came back and they were fundamentally shaken. They had never seen something so dysfunctional. Even though we were in Chicago, we knew we had to do something for Detroit. When you look at a dropout [[rate) between two-thirds and three-fourths of students, every year, that is staggering. Every city's [[dropout rate) is too high -- Chicago, New York, L.A. -- but I haven't seen anything like the rate of failure in Detroit.
Retroit,
Do you realize that that corrupt culture you always speak of has been seen in virtually every city and town that has collapsed? The most recent example is New Orleans. You are talking about a city being taken over by corruption and losing majority of it's tax base, considering those in poverty tend to cost money, not make it. This idea of it being black or low income "culture" is not real, mainly because that culture is not culture, but is the result of the economic collapse of a society.
Detroit and the suburbs is what it is now due the way we shape, mode our neighborhoods and economic structure.
Detroit became mostly African American due to segregation, white flight, economic flight, restrictive covenants, gentrification and racial steering.
The suburbs become mostly Caucasian because white flight, freeways, suburban sprawl, shopping malls and bigger and better box stores.
Detroit is not over a million people like New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Antonio, Dallas and San Diego.
Detroit is not one of hip cool Abercombie cities like Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, St Paul, San Francisco, Boston, Orlando, Ohama Denver, and Oklahoma City.
Detroit is not fully ethnically diverse like Chicago and New York City.
Detroit is compared to New Orleans, Gary, Atlanta , Cleveland, Flint and Milwaukee.
So everyone DEAL WITH IT! If we can't change ourselves, we can't change Detroit. If can't change our neighborhoods we might as well mess up until it becomes a brownfield. You all white folks left Detroit to escape the growing black problems coming to once family generated built Detroit dwellings long ago. Enjoy your nice cookie cutter ranches and bungalows that look like Levittown and make option whether to ignore your black neighbors of they move next door or help them out. You all black folks in Detroit you all have a option to enjoy creating your ghettohoods out of those dwelling and turning it American ruins, a likeness of Rome or leave to live with the white folks in the new Levittowns.
Detroit is what it is because of us. Antione De La Mothe Cadillac is up in the Kingdom of God weeping after he sow Detroit for what we have done. Blacks, Whites, Arabs, Jews, East Indians, Chinese Japanese, Hispanics ect... see Detroit as walk down its ghettohoods; commenting and adressing their critique of how our city looks like trash! The whole world see it as one of American's rust belt blunders.
Det_ard,
Thanks, but that wasn't an answer to my question. That was the secretary of education acknowledging that infusing money into the school system alone will not answer the problem. The quote says nothing about what causes the adult dysfunction or high drop out rate in the first place.
I really just wanted Retroit to provide data to substantiate the claims that were made that other cities even more impoverished than Detroit don't have Detroit's level of dysfunction. That hasn't been done yet.
I don't subscribe to the notion that poverty alone is the cause. Humans are too complex socially and psychologically to support acribing the cause of anything of a social nature to just one factor. But it cannot be ignored as a major contributing factor, far outweighing any "they're just defective" theory.
I did not direct that at you. It was directed at those who have had their heads in the sand and may post knee-jerk reactions to a sensationalized story. I mean should this really be a surprise to anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement