Motor City Muckraker has before and after photos showing no progress since the ground breaking and postponement of zoning approval at the City Council. Construction was supposed to happen this winter. Anybody know what's up?
Printable View
Motor City Muckraker has before and after photos showing no progress since the ground breaking and postponement of zoning approval at the City Council. Construction was supposed to happen this winter. Anybody know what's up?
"Light sight clearing." They've been demolishing buildings and leveling the ground since september.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...l#incart_river
"New Detroit Red Wings arena development on track despite quiet winter"
This was the official schedule from Olympia. As you can see, the "real construction" or mass excavation doesn't start until March. If you take a look at the most recent photo by MCM's Steve Neavling, there's only one small building[[red building on the left of the photo, maybe it's the old Comet bar?) left to demolish. The zoning approval should get worked out, I think they will find a way to include Park Avenue or at least keep it standing for future redevelopment, while getting the right deal in place for parking space. I believe the major sticking point was reducing it from 1,200 to 600 spots.Quote:
Project Schedule - Construction Activity [[Target Start Dates)
Site Abatement / Demolition / Utility Relocate – September 2014
Steel Mill Order – January 2015
Mass Excavation / Deep Foundations – March 2015
MEP – May 2015
Superstructure / Enclosure – Summer 2015
Interior Partitions / Finishes – Fall 2015
Substantial Completion – Summer 2017
http://www.districtdetroit.com/pdf/D...PT_0909_14.pdf
The Bid Pack 2 outreach meeting was held yesterday at Motor City Casino. That was part of the Steel Mill Order from the schedule above. A person who attended the meeting, said everything was on schedule and things should start rolling in the spring.Quote:
Bid Pack 2: Mass Excavation Earthwork, Temporary Shoring/Retention Systems, Site Utilities/Underground Penetrations through the concrete foundations and ERS, Elevators/Escalators [[Arena/Building A & B/Garage):
Detroit Event Center Bid Pack 2 Outreach Event will be held January 5, 2015, 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. [[Registration Opens at 8:30 a.m.) Motor City Casino and Hotel 2901 Grand River Ave. Detroit, MI.
http://www.tellusdetroit.com/busines...nt-122914.html
One more thing about the "utility relocation". DTE was behind the demolition of the former Temple Hotel and are in the process of adding a new substation in the area.Quote:
Over the next two years, the existing Charlotte substation, located just north of the upcoming 18,000-seat hockey arena at 2938 Park Ave., will undergo a major upgrade, while a second substation will be added in Midtown. In the spring, DTE Energy plans to open a substation in southwest Detroit to provide for a future bridge plaza as part of a planned border crossing between the United States and Canada.
http://www.dbusiness.com/core/pageto...%2F&mode=print
It looks like we are still 8-10 weeks out from any kind of "substantial" changes on the site. Although I'm wondering what kind of circus that is going to be with M1 and the arena going up on virtually the same turf. That's going to be a clusterfuck to avoid for awhile....
Hope they put up a webcam or two so we can keep an eye on the progress when it starts rolling.
This is the first arena thread I could find so I'm gonna post it here...
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/c...marks/30975356
Would seniors really want to live next to an entertainment/arena district?
So Illitch would have to sell the buildings to a private developer and then they would rehab the buildings? What's in it for Illitch then? He loses revenue from [[most likely) parking on the sites of those two buildings and has no income due to him selling to a private developer. Not sure why he would go along with that, unless someone else has a different viewpoint on that.
Some of the 'iconic' photos of the housing bubble was signage of future condos there for some ridiculous sum [[150 - 200K????). I remember taking photos because of the 'shock value.'
Of course, the housing bubble burst...
http://i57.tinypic.com/23wvdhf.jpg
This was posted by George Malik at kuklaskorner.Quote:
This picture has been making the rounds on Facebook and Twitter, but as far as I know, this is not accurate. The Red Wings' official rink project website states that Olympia Development's community outreach program won't be coming to the Northwest Activity Center until May, so this may or may not be a scam despite the fact that the address and phone number are accurate.
I recently talked with someone who works for Barton Malow and he said they expect to begin excavation in late March. According to him, they will work on the foundation and pile drilling soon after that, but the steel framework won't be going up until summer time.
Not sure why some are wondering what's going on with this. The project is going to ramp up in the next 30-60 days like it was forecasted to. By fall I'd imagine we will be seeing a steel skeleton taking shape.
I think the older posts in this thread were asking.
My post was more along the line: Will there be short delays because of the bad winter weather?
That said, if the excavation was delayed two weeks because of the weather it would be made up during the balance of spring.
Yup! Frozen ground thaws out in two weeks, and time is made up just by saying-so. Piece of cake!
I'm sure the project has a well-versed construction manager who has put together a reasonable schedule--it's not like winter is an unanticipated condition in Detroit. At least the excavating contractor doesn't have to worry about undermining any adjacent buildings. :p
There's also the slight issue of zoning that has yet to be resolved. Can they start construction if the zoning changes haven't been approved?
You're talking about a city that ignored its own Register of Historic Sites in order to throw money at Mike Ilitch to demolish one of his properties. It's a miracle that nobody from the City of Detroit or DDA was injured by all the tripping over themselves at Ilitch's request.
Little throwaway regulations like Zoning certainly aren't going to stand in the way of Detroit giving Ilitch everything his little heart desires.
Are you making a 'mountain out of a mole hill?' or just being snarky?
In a project with a 30 month timetable, there is plenty of time to make up lost time, even within the first, excavation, phase. Plenty of overtime...
I'm praying for warm weather in Detroit.
Both.
I'm just glad that you're so intimately familiar with the construction process that you 1) know that the contractor is two weeks behind schedule and 2) that they will definitely be able to make up two weeks of time by the end of spring.
But, yeah, overtime. Which is perfectly reasonable when nearly half the cost of this thing is publicly funded, right?
And, rah rah, or something.
I 'watched' Nationals Park go up in D.C. and they saddled the contractors with a very, very tight window.
Happens all the time. Government leaders get stuck in gridlock, the start gets delayed, the workers have to cover for them by working ridiculous schedules.
P.S. aren't cost overruns on the Ilitches?
Okay, GP, I'll reveal my method for forecasting the two weeks:
Normally, D.C. cherry blossoms are expected peak bloom roughly April 1.
This year the forecast is April 15.
Based on that bit of datum, I surmised that mother nature would be two weeks behind in D.C. and by extrapolation to Detroit also.
Bingo... :rolleyes:
And then, hooray! After decades of scorched-earth destruction, Ilitch's--er, DDA's--vacant lots will be filled with this miraculous shopping/parking/hockeyplex:
Attachment 26075
Maybe even one of them fancy Gordon Biersch beer places will open there too!
GP, is your mind conflicted?
I assume you want spring to arrive yet, spring will bring the arrival of the heavy equipment to...
While you lament, others are singing the praises of a "New Detroit":
"The final [Hudson's site] project could create a new postcard image for the city that combined with the Ilitch family's planned hockey arena and entertainment district on the north end of downtown would give the city a blockbuster pair of nationally significant architectural icons."
Freep
No, I'm not conflicted. I'm just saying that:
1. The arena district is not going to be the God-send that some [[including you, emu steve) think will be a kickstarter to saving downtown Detroit. It's going to be a hockey arena, with enormous parking garages and maybe a few blocks of restaurants, bars, small offices and retail. See also: Columbus.
I would not be surprised if it were designed to be psychologically cordoned-off from the rest of downtown, as the primary goal of this project is to make money for Olympia [[not revitalize the rest of downtown). In fact, I expect this area to function more like a suburban subdivision or shopping center than an urban neighborhood.
2. For the length of time that these properties sat vacant [[and all the destruction that was necessary to create these vacant lots), one questions whether or not Detroit would be better off had the properties been developed instead of sat-upon by their owner.
3. Same goes for your comment regarding the Hudson's site. By the time a new building opens, it will have only been 18 years since that building was speculatively demolished "to spur renaissance in downtown". Totally worth it, right? Never mind that redevelopment has taken place *everywhere but* this lot--you know, in those "old obsolete dinosaur" buildings that our old friend Rasputin wanted to tear down so many times over.
4. There is nothing "architecturally significant" about the new arena. And regardless of what the media says, odds are that a new building on the Hudson's site will not be architecturally significant, either. I mean, what are they going to do--add a ton of pointless cantilevers and clad it in glass, like every other architecture firm on earth does? Oooooh--how revolutionary! This, like much modern architecture, will at best be a high-concept sculpture that fails to act as a reasonably-performing building.
"Decide how the storefronts will interact with Woodward"? It's laughable. You put the damn storefronts right at the edge of the sidewalk, and then add your artistic embellishments--you know, architecture. I didn't realize that fundamental concepts of design required so many meetings.
The saddest part is that Detroit has gone well out of its way--and spent millions of dollars--to DEMOLISH ACTUAL SIGNIFICANT ARCHITECTURAL ICONS. So please, spare me the crap.
And yeah--Dan Gilbert [[as much as I admire the development he's doing)--the guy who wanted a public sculpture of dice and casino chips in downtown Cleveland--is the one who's going to insist on a world-class design for the Hudson's site. I'll believe it when I see it.
I have to go along with the previous post. Why should this new arena be a national icon? It's a hockey arena, just like 10 others built in the past few years. They're spending 2 billion on new football stadiums so another 350 million dollar arena will hardly get the nation buzzing. Also, we have yet to hear of any developers partnering with Ilitch on any development in his new area.
An arena/stadium can surely inspire and be an icon for a city, but even the best generally remain a mere footnote, something that is great to see a big game or event at, someplace that you remember when you see images of its exterior on TV [[which will generally account for 1/1000th of the TV imagery given that, in sports, the cameras are focused on the ice/court/field, which is the same everywhere).
The Barclays Center is the most advanced and all around best modern arena. It's rightfully acclaimed. It always catches my eye when I walk down Atlantic/Flatbush Avenues. It's a validation on Brooklyn's return as a glorious city center. But, in reality, it's just a place to watch a ballgame or a concert once you've saved up enough money. Thankfully, it has outstanding sight lines and acoustics, and kind of reinvented what the interior space of an arena is supposed to look like. That said, you can only take that so far. And the arena, though a spectacle, can only do so much [[really, not that much) to change the on-the-ground realities of Brooklyn. There's still underutilized space, there's still violence, there's still outrageously conceived housing projects, just blocks away. So I'm glad that the world has a new image [[among many) to remember Brooklyn and NYC by, but I'm willing to admit that the primary benefit, in reality, is 1) it's cool to look it; 2) it's awesome to watch a game at when you can afford it...and 3) it employs people.
Guess what, #2/3 are true of even the Joe Louis Arena, and at least in the case of Brooklyn #3 was a big deal because there was no arena there previously. Detroit is not growing the employment pool by moving from the riverfront to lower Midtown, except in ancillary development we hope for [[and frankly, the retail and hotels and residential that are being promised may already have been there, today, at least on a level comparable to the rest of Midtown, had Illitch not cockblocked the district for the last decade-ish). And, circling back to #1, JLA is kind of iconic for other reasons: it's name, it's location, and the amazing sports and entertainment that has occurred there.
I'm excited about the best-case scenario potential for the new arena. If the design is as grand as Barclays, and if the ancillary development all occurs in short order, there will be nothing but applause and satisfaction from me. But if there are defects a la Comerica Park [[poor seating arrangement, bland design), and if Illitch fails to create an atmospheric urban district [[i.e. removes historic buildings and replaces them with plazas and garages), I will be completely disappointed, except for the part of me that will eventually settle with it and say [[well, at least my out of town guests don't need to see post-apocalyptic moonscape anytime we head from downtown to midtown). Oddly enough, Comerica Park has a nice nationwide reputation [[it's pleasing to view on the TV, overlooks downtown nicely, and is hospitable to the first-time visitor) but obviously isn't iconic....Ford Field too, and for some better reasons such as outstanding interior design and historic rehabilitation. It's a solid facility built to last, but not landmark.
All I can say is we better get a fucking icon that blows away all other hockey facilities and Detroit's other stadia: I frankly cannot think of any architecturally iconic NHL rinks [[except Barclays effective next year). All are basically boxes or faux replays of the actual traditional icons of the original 6 era. There are a couple of subtly iconic college rinks, i.e. Yost, but really not pro rinks that offer unique architecture. At this point, your best currency for being recognized is reputation/name and history: MSG, JLA, etc. So if we are giving up on JLA and its identity and history, we need something beyond best in class...the hockey version of the best modern sports facilities you've ever been to or seen on TV [[Seattle's football stadium? Arlington's oversize stadium? the under-construction football stadium in Minneapolis?). If Minneapolis is somehow going to have the coolest football stadium in the world, Detroit better get the best hockey arena.
...In closing let me fit this rant into the context of this toe-tapping thread: I don't mind if they take their time. Get it right. Convert those blurry-eyed, press-release conceptual renderings into an even better real blueprint. Get the best materials. Hire the best people. Put our public financing to work now that you've plundered it.
Mackinaw.... for all the beauty that the Barclay Center has on the outside to look at... it reminds me of the Sydney Opera House... it looks great on the outside... but just as the Sydney Opera House cannot actually hold Grand Opera [[some serious design flaws mean large operas have to go elsewhere).... so too does the Barclay Center have some serious design flaws.... nearly 4000 seats cannot see one of the two goal zones for hockey games....
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/09/...y-at-barclays/
So much for physical beauty.... :[[
Very good article with some 'new' news [[or things I didn't or at least wouldn't be expected to know):
1). the heavy equipment needs to be on site before the thaw begins per law. [[didn't know that).
2). "Rezoning isn't required to begin the major earth-moving, such as excavation and site prep work. " So while local government leaders, Ilitches, preservationists, etc. debate the workers will be busy at work. Time won't be lost.
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.co...9/barclays.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BUuFi-XCAAA9q83.jpg
http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1..._960/image.JPG
The Barclays Center is so advanced and modern that it's only good for basketball. Almost anything inside the blue line is considered to have limited view seats for hockey. Most of the fans in that zone can't see any action from the faceoff circles on in, while many of the folks along the sides will have to turn their heads past 45 degrees. Did I mention the railings obstructing views as well? It's the absolute worst for watching a hockey game.
The new Detroit Arena has a deconstructed design with the first ever glass-covered interior streetscape, plus an LED-lit roof. I like the fact that they went with something unique and not the usual cookie-cutter setup. They have also hired Rossetti[[who worked on the Palace) to make sure it has the best sighlines for hockey. Bringing in Tom Wilson was huge because he has plenty of experience with building something that has never been done before. After all, he was Davidson's right-hand man when the Palace was built with the suite setup which all new arenas replicated thereafter.
It's not like they designed it for hockey and just messed up. It was only designed for basketball and it seems to work fine for that, so I don't know what the complaint is. Should they have made it more versatile? probably, but they were hired to design a basketball arena and that is what they did. I'm sure the new Red Wings arena will offer a full view of the rink.
Yeah I was just complimenting Barclays as the only real arena that contributes to cityscape in a 'wow' sort of way, in response to some earlier comments. As to interior layout, I didn't aware that it sucked for hockey [[has it hosted hockey yet? I thought that started next fall). I think you all got my drift in mentioning Barclays though, in relation to our hockey arena. Part apples to apples, part apples to oranges.
I was looking around... and this was the best I could find.... this puts basketball vs. hockey seating into perspective....
http://www.du.edu/ritchiecenter/even.../diagrams.html
HOTEL PARK AVENUE DEMOLITION OFFICIALLY PROPOSED
...EDDYSTONE PRESERVATION PLANNED.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...sing/70470290/
You know, can't save 'em both, 'cause of the terror'sts and .... 'cause we need a loading dock for rock concerts.
LOL whatevs, Olympia.
I fear that batting 1 for 2 will be good enough for city council to approve the zoning request. The 10am should shed light on the actual reasoning why the Park Ave building can't be saved and costs to renovate the Eddystone. SHould be interesting.
Discussion of parking at the arena site.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...lans/70434020/
You laugh at that, but the Department of Homeland Security is taking a VERY active role in working with college athletic departments and professional sports franchises in not only recommending particular design elements in new stadium construction or renovation of existing facility, but DEMANDING them.
I know for a fact that several of the recent upgrades to improve Spartan Stadium in East Lansing included aspects that came straight from DHS safety requirements.
Yeah, but if the design element is "no buildings allowed nearby", DHS should be laughed out of the room. And, honestly, who cares what they recommend? Have we been suffering a string of stadium-related safety crises or terrorist attacks? If Washington DC has a hockey/basketball arena [[Verizon Center) totally surrounded by other buildings with no "buffer" at all, I bet Detroit can manage to do whatever works for Detroit.
Regardless of whether DHS holds a certain position or not, there are two realities. First, this is not law, but guidelines. Second, the position as applied here and as raised by Olympia is internally inconsistent and hypocritical. The very design of the arena structure, so highly touted by Olympia, includes offices retail and residential ON SITE and surrounding it across the street.
So yeah, they can build new schlock right on top of the arena, but, as to comparable uses in an older building across the street, well, now, that just wouldn't be safe.
The Free Press coverage of parking this morning is scaring the shit out of me. Sounds like "THE DISTRICT" is primarily going to be a surface parking district. I don't understand why Olympia is not providing more structure parking or underground parking on site, or why they aren't being forced to. Alternatively, they should be forced to choose 2 or 3 of their, what, 50 vacant blocks nearby and develop a few mega-garages. Problem solved. If the City council acquiesces to a plan that continues to lock up that whole area for parking rather than neighborhood development, we've got big problems.
I wish the Freep and others would more intelligenty raise and ask questions about surface v. garages/underground. Only a consolidated approach will leave room for the developers to develop actual buildings. This, more than anything, calls into question whether a neighborhood will be built. And the same article that covers this needs to examine Olympia's pattern with Comerica-- again, under-provision of garages and over-provision of surface lots which have made our cityscape look like shit and which have cockblocked any potential development of those sites. It is the SINGLE most unintelligent thing about these stadium developments.
I don't know why this is a shock to anyone at all.
From the Freep article:
Where have we heard this load of crap before???Quote:
Doug Kuiper, a spokesman for Ilitch Holdings, said the surface lots will be "high-quality, landscaped, paved surface parking lots to support the Detroit Events Center and businesses in the District Detroit." "Over time, many of these lots will evolve to become new developments that benefit our community," Kuiper said in a statement.
Only in Detroit can you have 20,000 parking spots within a 10-minute walk, yet still be concerned about providing sufficient parking. Boy oh boy, I can't wait to go park my car down by the new hockey arena!!! Don't know if I can handle this much excitement.Quote:
Red Wings owners Mike and Marian Ilitch control companies that operate several surface lots around the arena site. The area where surface lots are anticipated to be needed stretches along Woodward Avenue from the Masonic Temple to the north, down to the Grand Circus Park area to the south.
The study estimates more than 6,600 cars will arrive on game nights. Including spaces at several surface lots, there are 4,200 spaces within 1,000 feet of the arena and an additional 20,000 parking spaces within a 10-minute walk of the arena, according to a planning document Olympia Development submitted to the city.
Landscaped to boot! That way, we can fit even fewer cars per blocks and jam up the entire district...for parking. A parking district! "EPIC plans", says the Detroit News!
I am very disappointed in the Free Press and Detroit News coverage of this project.. They are not writing as journalists.. All hail the mighty Mike Ilitch, whom no one can doubt because he knows best.. This parking issue is ridiculous. The only issue we have here is that there are too many surface lots and not enough deck parking. All the naysayers were absolutely right, this project is going to look and feel just like Comerica Park. Mediocre at best.
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. Construction of the Verizon Center [[then known as the MCI Center) broke ground 7 years before the Department of Homeland Security even existed and 6 years before 9/11. I'm sure DHS has issues with the Verizon Center's design from a security perspective, but they also realize that the adjacent property is likely owned by other entities than those that own the arena so their ability to change them is limited.
However, in the case of a brand new construction where the arena owner also owns the adjacent property in question, DHS can and does become more insistent in having their security concerns addressed in the design.
Also, don't forget that the new Wings Arena is a different concept with an open air concourse. In theory, a lone gunman or someone with an RPG in one of the top floors could wreak havoc on a crowded concourse during an intermission before police could get up to him.
Accordingly, it's insane that the arena can be designed in a way that allows this potential to arise, while a building across the street cannot be redeveloped for similar uses, due to "security." You get my drift on the internal inconsistencies here?
Don't buy whatever Olympia is selling on this matter.
the fact that we can't believe Olympia when they even mention that parking lots will be paved and landscaped is pathetic in itself. Their reputation is that in question.
Spending all this money on a new arena, when our roads are the worst in the country.
Hard for me to get too worked up about the connection between these realities and the use of state bonds to finance an arena [[and, despite all of my concerns, it's still more than just an arena).
Much easier for me to get worked up when I consider these realities against the heinous I-94 expansion proposal.
Iheartthed, there are two issues here. One, obviously, preservation. Two, as to all of the already-empty land, will we skimp on the structured/underground parking such that all of the empty land remains empty and used for the least constructive purpose: gameday surface parking? Seperate debates but both certainly go to the issue of whether we are laying the igredients for an actual 'district' or just acceding to Olympia's latest bait-and-switch.
Sounds like Olympia made their presentation, proposing to tear down Hotel Park Ave. and then took off without any public commentary.
Yeah....just shows where the city and state's priorities are. I get that private money and bonds are being used for the arena, but should we be subjugated to more tax increases to fix the roads? I mean you have to try to dodge the potholes to get to the game don't you?
The DDA has been around for a long time. It isn't something new that was created just to fund the arena. I'm all for wealthy team owners paying for their own buildings, but this money can only be used to improve downtown. granted there are probably other better ways that it could be spent, but George Jackson loves his big projects...
The amount of money the state needs, and the manner in which it needs it, is everything-- and the state bonds for the arena district are not nearly the amount of money [[not even close) nor the type of money [[constant cash flow) that the state needs for comprehensive road repair [[and, ps, TRANSIT upgrades). That's what Prop 1 is going to be all about-- flawed as it is, it is to open up a new and appropriate cash flow to fund the roads. The State's funds for the Arena/development are effectively a loan to the city, and frankly I'd rather see a loan to the city than outlays of cash on hand to fix some roads in suburbia.
Real question is, now that the public is a half-investor in this project, how will we ensure that this project-- every aspect thereof-- serves the public interest? And how do we overcome the greedy influence of those completly lacking in vision, i.e. Olympia?
We don't. Unless City Council sticks to their guns and demands that Olympia does as they ask. The project is too far along and they won't move to a different location, but Council has to be strong on their demands. In the past the community tried to be involved in the process and got Olympia to agree to a neighborhood advisory council, but it is powerless, only able to offer suggestions that Olympia is free to disregard.
City Council needs to realize that it has the leverage to make exactions, and that the exactions need not be elaborate, but as simple as requiring that a few parking garages be built and one more building be spared. The loss of goodwill to Olympia, and, more importantly, the franchise, were they to scuttle to plan at this point would be tremendous. That won't happen.
Some simple words from Duggan, along the lines of-- we need to see this district materialize, so I encourage City Council to insist on terms that will foster neighborhood creation and real spin-off development-- would be so significant right now because they'd embolden the council and would pit a popular mayor [[within city and region) against a developer that wouldn't dare flake out. Guess who would win. ...the City.
This is absolutely ridiculous. Someone could walk into downtown Detroit today with an RPG and shoot it anywhere they wanted. Better tear down every other building so nobody can get an angle down into a crowded office! Install an Iron Dome system near Campus Martius! Play Tigers games in a TV studio!
Why is 9/11 relevant? Will tearing down the Park Avenue Hotel prevent another 9/11? Will we ever be allowed to build buildings next to other buildings again?
Forgive all the snark but the absolutely unthinking nature of the "security" lobby in this country continually harms our public spaces and provides no public benefit.
I think it's much more likely that DHS has some arcane guideline about a "security perimeter", no authority to enforce it, and Olympia has latched onto that as cover for tearing down a building they want gone.
Attachment 26300
here is an updated rendering Olympia presented today, showing the eddy stone destroyed and a park in it's place. doesn't actually look too bad.
I know we all would've preferred if they saved both but I can live with this.
that rendering still isnt accurate as it doesnt reflect the surface parking they're hinting at.
She [[Councilmember Raquel Castaneda-Lopez) asked for the zip codes of Red Wings suite holders, who would use most of the on-site parking.
"I would put that in the 'none of your business' category," said Heapes [[design manager). "But we can give a summary of that."
im sorry but the proposed arena is hideous. I realize they're the Red Wings but does the arena have to be that red?
If you go to the MI DEQ Asbestos Notification search page [[http://www.deq.state.mi.us/asbestos_.../AbSearch.aspx) and look at 110 Sproat [[The Eddystone) and 2643 Park [[The Harbor Light), the notifications are essentially identical. Asbestos to be removed by hand prior to interior demolition as part of a planned renovation.
Maybe deducing anything from such a formulaic document is trying to interpret tea leaves. But by contrast the asbestos notifications for the Brewster highrises [[2913 / 2700 St Antoine) clearly were for demo.
perhaps if you turned off the snark and turned on your brain you would see the relevance of 9/11 to a discussion on event security. I'm not sure what rock you've been living under for the past 14 years, but the rest of us noticed that security issues have taken on greater importance since those attacks happened. Arenas built prior to 9/11 [[like the Verizon Center) didn't have the same security precautions built into them that post 9/11 construction is more likely to have.
Heck, the Department of Homeland Security wouldn't even exist if not for 9/11. If you can't understand the impact and relevance 9/11 had on the security concerns of the design of public or other gathering spaces then there is really no point continuing a discussion with you as you lack the required knowledge to have a worthwhile debate on the issue.
I can't speak for Junjie, but it seems to me that one can understand the "impact and relevance of 9/11" without thinking it should be a dominant factor in the design of urban spaces. In a country filled with soft targets, worrying about hardening a few specific gathering places seems kind of silly. No doubt there are specific locations that are such attractive targets symbolically that they should get special attention, but I don't see why a random arena would meet that criterion.
There really shouldn't be any debate on this. The fact of the matter is that Ilitch doesn't like taking care of old icky buildings that drain his money. A public park with a huge uninteresting parking garage next to it feels like the least urban thing that could replace a historic structure. At least have a giant TV screen or interesting design on the facade of the garage. Or maybe even extent the residential buildings that front the other parking garage to front both parking garages. Otherwise, that part of the arena district is destined to be a dead zone. Which, if I remember correctly, the way in which this arena is design is supposed to prevent dead zones.
I certainly hope that a garage would get used more than 41 [[plus 2-12 playoff games) nights per year. It should be used for other events at the arena [[presumably it will) and for Tigers baseball.
Fine. How about a more relevant example then...
The Consol Energy Center in Pittsburgh broke ground it 2008. It has a church and a hotel right next to it, as well as an intact city block across the street. It's been open for 5 years and has yet to be RPG'ed.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/CO...ac0eb9c25713ab
Good example. I like that they even allowed a little 2-3 story standing-alone historic building to stay standing about 30 feet behind the east end of the area. Such presence of insigificant history jamming up prime patron parking would never stand in an Olympia joint.
Another example, the new Prudential Center in Newark. A high-rise Hotel Indigo [[formerly abandoned!!) right outside, a new Marriot right behind its VIP garage, and a row of bars with lofts above surrounding its main [[north) entrance along Edison and Market Streets.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=indig...,0.006968&z=18
I think Curbed has the best "timeline" of excuses for why the P.A needs to be torn down. Several differing excuses cited.
Relevance? Your argument lacks practicality. What do you find reasonable? 150' buffers around every proposed public structure from here on out? Just a reminder that cities are made up of buildings that tend to be close together. The historic structures were here first. The architects and engineers are the professionals that should make them safe considering no such law or policy actually requires removal of the building. This is an excuse.
I heard that anyone entering the arena will be subjected to a search, where Olympia Entertainment staff will turn you upside down and shake you until every last cent falls out of your pockets. You know, for security reasons.
excuse. reason. whatever. I don't think the Park Avenue is such a great building that it will be missed horribly when it's gone. It had a nice street front facade, but that's about it. I don't think it was ever considered a "gem" even in its hay-day. But go ahead, get worked up about it if it makes you happy
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...vote/25710591/
How incredibly priceless and appropriate that the Council wants an ordinance reflecting a commitment to restore the Eddystone, Olympia says no-can-do but you have our word, and Council accordingly votes 6-3 against approving the plan today.
Good for them.
Looks like the Hotel Park Ave. is being forsaken by the council, however, and it will fall to the purview of the Historic District Commission. What's interesting there is whether the Duggan administrator will abide by the HDC on such a high-profile building in the event [[or likelihood) that the HDC denies a demolition permit. With the lower-profile Deck Bar/Historic Bank building on Jefferson @ Alter, Duggan's people recently defied the HDC and issued a permit notwithstanding the HDC's unanimous denial and longstanding fight which including victories in court. Could the Hotel Park Avenue come down to such an intergovernmental struggle? I sure hope not.
Olympia consultant John Graves to council: “It’s just a matter of trust, whether you believe the developer on that promise" for Eddystone.
Apparently council is skeptical, rightfully so...
I've seen this dog and pony show in D.C. [[w. Nationals Park) - and the stadium was not technically finished for opening day 2008 despite tons of overtime, cost overruns, etc.
I'm not sure of all of the problems. I know the Council finally approved it at something like 2 - 3:00 a.m. Sunday morning. I believe their backs were to the wall [[IF they did not approve it then, the Nationals would have to prepare RFK Stadium for 2008 MLB. The start date kept getting moved back.).
Olympia keeps talking about how they need this approved so they can start construction and they are running out of time, but they are the ones that took three months to revise their zoning change request and then put pressure on council to approve it in a few days without adequate time for them to look it over. They sure know how to play the game if nothing else...
I'd be shocked if they HDC didn't deny this. That said, Illitch will probably accidentally swing a wrecking ball into the building deeming it structurally unsound and in need of an emergency demolition or some other crap like they pulled with the Madison Lennox. As much as I want this building saved, I have a feeling that they will find a way to tear it down legal or not.
Yeah these guys are going to develop 50 blocks. They can't even develop 5.
Its good for the city council delay the vote for the Red Wings Arena. Both the Park and Eddystone Hotel can not be town down. Those buildings are once called " Puttin' on the Ritz" 5 star hotel are very historic and its met to be kept up. Another thing is those two historic homes on Cass/Clifford Rd. It has to stay. So Illitch and his greedy private corporations would have to go back the drawing board and figure out to the woo and impress the new city council and how is this new arena be possible to all Metro-Detroiters.
This is kind of like "It's in it for black people." who are still dominate in Detroit.
there should be contractual guarantees about renovating the hotel site for housing, including affordable housing. There really should have been a CBA for the entire project since this is 58% publicly funded.
Wow, missed this doozy of a post. The point, which apparently flew over your head, was that the precautions you want to unquestioningly accept do nothing to make anyone safer. Since they don't make you safer, but they can be used as an excuse to make our cities worse for the people who actually live in them, we shouldn't support them just because somebody in Washington said so. And most especially not when the Illitches are using it in a self-serving way just to get what they want.
Yes, I know that 9/11 caused people to lose their shit, set up DHS, create silly rules just to appear to be "doing something to keep us safe". I was here too. That doesn't mean that tearing down the Park Avenue will make the Red Wings' new arena safer. A terrorist intent on killing people could simply shoot everyone standing in line to get their bags checked at security, today or in the future, without climbing up the Park Avenue. But tearing that building down will definitely replace a potentially reusable historic building with a loading dock. Given that your position has no benefit but a significant cost, I'll oppose it regardless of what some bureaucrat at DHS says.
I'm with Tom Walsh on this: If the city wants folks to build, renovate, etc. time to start trusting one another and get things moving. A city proves itself when it minimizes red tape, delays, etc. [[and man, I hate when these common councils in cities can't agree and things drag on and on and folks just get frustrated and the air gets poisoned).
Sometimes folks need to see the 'big picture' and run with it.
http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...elay/25749763/
Marathon showed you get this stuff LOCKED.
The media in this town is such garbage.
They'll write that a billionaire should be fellatioed on command and call the city council obstructionists.
A year later they'll write how foolish the council was not to get guarantees in writing.
I can't wait for both rags to go bankrupt to see these clowns twist in the "real/business world" they're always banging on about.