If Detroit Got a Mall, Where Would You Put It?

Just curious. If it was announced that Detroit was going to get a mall, where would you put it and why? And when I say mall, I mean a traditional mall with three to four anchors like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, or Target [[now they don't have to be the typical size, but their presence would be a plus). Also, it does not have to have the footprint of a tradition mall, i.e miles of asphalt for parking. It can be unique, but not on the water or in the air or underground. I mean something that is conceivable realistic.This question is mainly a logistics question not a debate about whether or not Detroit could really have such a mall. So naysayers this thread is not for you. As to not sway the logistics debate, I will refrain from offering my suggestion until later.

I'd like to see something on the riverfront, maybe an open-air mall, perhaps in the area that originally was supposed to be cleared out for the original Casinos proposal. All the anchor stores would be there, and there could be shared space wth the Riverwalk.. have some other family-friendly attractions there.. a parking tower could be built..

If an urban mall, definitely Campus Martius. A mall has been under consideration for this site since the 70's. In fact, when Hudson's closed, they indicated they would return in a mall format if another department store anchor could be found.

Do I think such a mall would work? Probably not, given the generally dismal performance of urban malls in the U.S., and the extreme challenges present in Detroit. But, if such a mall could succeed, then Campus Martius would be the most likely spot for success.

If a more conventional suburban mall, I would go with East Jefferson [[say the Uniroyal site, or the wastelands close to GP Park), which have lots of space, plenty of strip malls already, and decent traffic and disposible income.

Keep in mind that malls aren't being built very often these days. The few that get built are generally middling-to unsuccessful, and are often in the smaller "lifestyle center" format [[see Partridge Creek or Village at Rochester Hills).

I would not be in favor of a Detroit mall.

I would not be in favor of a Detroit mall either.

If Detroit Got a Space Portal that Showered Us with Jellybeans and Moon Pies, Where Would You Put It?

Hmmm,

I would like a Tel-Twelve-like mall in the St. Jean/Jefferson area. Basically an extension of Th Shops at Jefferson Villege with an emphasis on anchors.

I would also like to see a 10 story residential/commercial complex on the uniroyal site with any parking behind the building or underground and the two bottom floors facing Jefferson and Grand Blvd to feature mid to upscale shops.

I would also like to see another big box store open on the old Kmart property at Sherwood and Outer Drive, likely a Kroger or even a Wal-Mart.

Finally I would like to see more emphasis on Detroit's already existing malls that are on life support, such as Bel-Air and Grand River/Greenfield.

I would put it behind Foxtown or in lower Midtown between Woodward and Cass. However, I would not want to see a traditional, auto-centric suburban mall built anywhere near downtown. Downtown needs some major retail shopping to draw in tourists, but the design would have to be built on a pedestrian scale. No parking lots, maybe a parking structure with ground floor retail. It should incorporate itself into the existing area without being "island-like." Must be accessible, and preferably open to the outdoors, maybe with awnings and a courtyard space. It should be easily accessible by light rail and developed in way that would encourage infill around it. Again, it should not be "campus-like" or "fortress-like."

Detroit: Desperately recycling the dead ends of the 20th century forever and ever.

Downtown Denver has a very nice outdoor mall - 16th street mall I think it's called. It has a nice covered section so you don't have to get rained on or snowed on. I think it would be cool if Washington was converted into this sort of arrangement - a nice big pedestrian mall with sheltered, not necessarily enclosed, sections.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

Downtown Denver has a very nice outdoor mall - 16th street mall I think it's called. It has a nice covered section so you don't have to get rained on or snowed on. I think it would be cool if Washington was converted into this sort of arrangement - a nice big pedestrian mall with sheltered, not necessarily enclosed, sections.

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That's a pedestrian mall, which is to say a normal retail street, but pedestrianized.

Washington Blvd. was converted into something like Denver's 16th Street Mall during the 1970's. It was a dismal failure.

Woodward too. It was the "Woodward Transit Mall" for a number of years. Didn't work.

I would put a pedestrian mall on the cap that would eventually cover the Fisher Fwy.

Do away with Cobo and stick a mall there but keep the parking structure [[but lower parking fees).

These are all terrible ideas. You want to take an area that has staggering vacancy rates and add acres and acres of Class A commercial space? With lots of free parking? No wonder this city keeps on sucking.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

These are all terrible ideas. You want to take an area that has staggering vacancy rates and add acres and acres of Class A commercial space? With lots of free parking? No wonder this city keeps on sucking.

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It's not about adding more commercial space, it's about adding big city amenities. You have to build stuff for people to do so that they will come. Do you think the Miracle Mile in Chicago or 5th Ave in New York, or dozens of other examples of urban shopping districts are all terrible ideas? A development like this isn't going to rely exclusively on the patronage of regional residents like suburban malls. It will draw in tourists, game-goers, convention-goers, show-goers, business travelers and Windsorites. While I'd love to see some high-end stores open on Woodward, those commercial spaces are not going make good sense for large chain retailers, but rather will accommodate smaller boutiques. Lower Woodward will most likely develop into coffee shops, cafes, bars and restaurants, and little shops with lofts above. Macy's needs a larger space where it can be flanked by other destination stores. People want concentrated shopping, and when you build it into a walkable urban area, I think it is especially appealing. People will go there just to say they went there and bought a T-Shirt from "____ Store Detroit."

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

It's not about adding more commercial space, it's about adding big city amenities. You have to build stuff for people to do so that they will come. Do you think the Miracle Mile in Chicago or 5th Ave in New York, or dozens of other examples of urban shopping districts are all terrible ideas? A development like this isn't going to rely exclusively on the patronage of regional residents like suburban malls. It will draw in tourists, game-goers, convention-goers, show-goers, business travelers and Windsorites. While I'd love to see some high-end stores open on Woodward, those commercial spaces are not going make good sense for large chain retailers, but rather will accommodate smaller boutiques. Lower Woodward will most likely develop into coffee shops, cafes, bars and restaurants, and little shops with lofts above. Macy's needs a larger space where it can be flanked by other destination stores. People want concentrated shopping, and when you build it into a walkable urban area, I think it is especially appealing. People will go there just to say they went there and bought a T-Shirt from "____ Store Detroit."

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I disagree. This is putting the cart [[symbols of prosperity) before the horse [[infrastructure and services).

Ever hear of cargo cults? They were tribal peoples on islands who watched the military come through, setting up supply lines, airstrips, radio towers, and plane after plane loaded with beautiful and useful things started landing. Well, after the war was over, the planes stopped landing. So the tribsemen built their own landing strips, with radio shacks, operators with coconut headphones, torches lighting the runway, etc., all in hopes that the great planes would come bearing gifts.

That's what a lot of these ideas for downtown remind me of. If only we built the trappings of a prosperous area [[suburbia! with all its malls!), then the eventual prosperity would arrive.

In truth, there's plenty of room for anybody who wants it. Big chain stores don't have a problem setting up a location in New York. That's because New York has a hole in the ground that 100,000 people an hour come out of.

Establish light rail service. Jump-start pedestrian traffic. Attract development. Fill what's empty first. But please don't rush off to build acres and acres of shopping space when we can't even keep what's built full.

I hate malls with a purple passion and never ever go to one. That said I worked retail for beaucoup years. Anything in or near the riverfront would never sell to Major anchors. Locations are based on populate in a circle around the location. The river gives you a half circle therefore half the populaton

A traditional "mall" won't work.

What would be best, would be to have one developer buy up a number of vacant buildings downtown and rehab the storefronts for retail and attract at least two major anchors. Another possibility, and one I have heard whispers about being possible, would be in the Cass Park Area... nobody knows for sure who is buying the property in this area [[though we can speculate), but one possibility is a developer looking to cash in on traffic from a new arena in the area. A developer could rehab the Eddystone and American Hotels along with the former Harbor Light Center for residential with ground floor retail, then develop some of the vacant land in the area as somewhat of an "open air" mall with storefronts and lofts or apartments above along with a couple of anchor stores. Yes, it is a bit of a stretch, but if Detroit were to get any sort of a "mall," this would be the best bet... Detroit isn't dense enough for much else.

It would be a real shame to see all three of those buildings fall and become parking lots... with a light rail stop on Woodward nearby, this could become an attractive shopping option for people Downtown and in Midtown.

I once thought that maybe we could have patched together something like Indianapolis's "City Centre Mall" but instead utilizing our older,and IMHO superior architecture-- Too much of "City Centre" is new-built with a huge cluster of look-a-like plain parking garages, too near each other, for my tastes. My fantasy would have had maybe an expanded People Mover tie-in to the hotels, and more skyway pedestrian bridging tying it further together-- But as I said, I once thought this way-- I now feel that this concept has become flawed with time, partly because the urban footprint is even more "gap-toothed" today than the early 90's, and changed quite a bit with the new sports venues and gambling joints recently added. Because of this, I no longer think along these lines. Also, when one includes issues like trying to compete with established suburban malls, and security for such a maze-like, spread out scheme, with the further need for even more parking structures downtown to lure the hoped for suburban shopper-- Well, forget it.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Jump-start pedestrian traffic. Attract development. Fill what's empty first. But please don't rush off to build acres and acres of shopping space when we can't even keep what's built full.

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Now you're getting into a chicken and egg problem. There are already a lot of people who commute downtown. They drive downtown, go to work, maybe have lunch, then drive back home. They don't stay and shop, 'cause there's nowhere to shop.

There are plenty of population centers that would make sense for stores to open - Greektown, The Ren Cen, the financial district. There are *tons* of people in those areas. Yet there is a dearth of retail in those locations. I don't think that the mere presence of a rail stop is going to be any more incentive for stores to locate downtown.

Detroit could copy the City Place in downtown Long Beach, CA...complete with light rail stop and urban Wal Mart

Michigan Central Station Mall

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Originally Posted by royce

Just curious. If it was announced that Detroit was going to get a mall, where would you put it and why?

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In the Detroit River.

Wooward, restoration of a building downtown, free parking in quarter block parking structure.
Or Woodward, in Midtown, adjacent parking structure.

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Originally Posted by royce

Just curious. If it was announced that Detroit was going to get a mall, where would you put it and why? And when I say mall, I mean a traditional mall with three to four anchors like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, or Target [[now they don't have to be the typical size, but their presence would be a plus). Also, it does not have to have the footprint of a tradition mall, i.e miles of asphalt for parking. It can be unique, but not on the water or in the air or underground. I mean something that is conceivable realistic.This question is mainly a logistics question not a debate about whether or not Detroit could really have such a mall. So naysayers this thread is not for you. As to not sway the logistics debate, I will refrain from offering my suggestion until later.

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Well, that rules out my idea of building it on top of the river and using it as the second bridge.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

Now you're getting into a chicken and egg problem. There are already a lot of people who commute downtown. They drive downtown, go to work, maybe have lunch, then drive back home. They don't stay and shop, 'cause there's nowhere to shop.

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Or why drive over to a store, park near it, put money in the meter, and then go in, shop, come back out, get back in your car, and drive off? Heck, you'll probably do all your shopping at once at a bigger store in the suburbs.

But once you're taking mass transit, you're walking to the street. Pedestrian activity, especially people with money to spend, can attract shops and small service centers. Think very modest at first: A downtown Radio Shack near a rail stop. Or a magazine shop. People picking up one last thing before getting on the LRV and going home.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

There are plenty of population centers that would make sense for stores to open - Greektown, The Ren Cen, the financial district. There are *tons* of people in those areas. Yet there is a dearth of retail in those locations. I don't think that the mere presence of a rail stop is going to be any more incentive for stores to locate downtown.

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You might be delightfully surprised. It works well in other cities. Provide infrastructure and people use it. Developers see the rail in the ground and start investing.

Though the mag mile in Chicago has several malls, they are an amenity that the city of Detroit can do without at this time. As others have said before, the city should focus on street level retail in many of the older office structures in downtown.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Developers see the rail in the ground and start investing.

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oh god...............

How about put it anywhere that is surrounded by plenty of adequate parking. That way nobody has to deal with a bunch of meter maids driving around terrorizing people and taking a delight in making people miserable.

Norfolk, Virginia put a mall right downtown, the MacArthur Center.

http://www.shopmacarthur.com/

Norfolk was heading for the same problems that Detroit has back in the 1970s, but has successfully redeveloped their downtown and put a brake on white flight.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

These are all terrible ideas. You want to take an area that has staggering vacancy rates and add acres and acres of Class A commercial space? With lots of free parking? No wonder this city keeps on sucking.

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To Detroitnerd and other naysayers, I requested that those of you who didn't have anything positive to say to just stay away. Like I said, this isn't a debate about the merits of a mall in Detroit, it is an simple exercise seeking to find out where would one locate a mall in Detroit if it could be done. I know I can't silence peoples' opinions, but Detroitnerd, you are a Debbie-Downer.

At any rate, before the planned rehab of Cobo Hall, I always thought that Cobo would be a good spot for a mall [[like DetroitTeacher suggested). The parking is there, the interior space is there, and there would not have been a need to build new. Given the available space and the number of stores, it may have been possible to still use Cobo as a convention center.

Now, with much of the new development being directed towards Midtown and the CBD, the area south of Temple along Woodward would be an ideal spot for a retail center/ mall. I still believe the stores should be on multi-levels, with the anchors placed closer to Clifford or Cass streets than Woodward. A huge parking deck would also be needed, no surface parking at all.

For my third choice, I would put a traditional mall with surface parking spaces where the GM-Poletown plant is currently. It is at the junction of two major freeways: I-94 and I-75 and there are good entrance and exit ramps to and from the freeways. It is centrally located between Northland, Eastland, and Fairlane malls and it would attract shoppers from Hamtramck. Those without cars could take the Grand Belt [[Grand Blvd.) bus [[east/west route), Chene [[southern route, and Mt. Elliott/Jos. Campau [[northern routes) buses to get there.

In Montreal the major department stores, some of which have become shopping malls with boutiques instead of departments have also changed ownership or been picked up after bankruptcy. But the mall concept has more elasticity, less of a tendency to fail if the risk is spread out. One shop fails and some other is sure to replace it. There are now a lot more malls in the downtown than department stores per se because many of the office complexes have added indoor malls in their planning. There are 15 to 20 malls from the east to the west end of downtown all reached by subway. There is plenty of shopping on commercial streets also.
This equipment is just as important as infrastructure for Detroit. This lack of opportunity stifles residential and office development. I would not be afraid of competing with existing businesses, they
would benefit from the increased activity. [[like in the old days) None of this will happen fast but in increments. Developers tend to copy each other. Food courts are another neglected facet of development. One large space at street level would be a welcome sight, 10 or 15 lunch counters would easily do the trick for office workers such as the Ren Cen food court. I dont think Detroit needs to fuss over the uniformity and blandness of malls and foodcourts, the idea is to provide and then the competition will make a difference.
I would like to see a prioritized street access and attractive treatment from the street which is pretty easy when you consider the quality of Detroit architecture. Developers have not opened up to Detroit in the retail end and that is a mystery to me. Detroit could handle 4 or 5 malls easily if carefully planned and tied into transit and street revitalization. How can anyone say no to a single mall and yet envisage new casinos. Where do you want people to spend their dime? In suburbia? Las Vegas developed a lot more high end shopping plazas starting in the eighties, because the showbiz and gambling were not enough to complete the picture...

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Originally Posted by royce

To Detroitnerd and other naysayers, I requested that those of you who didn't have anything positive to say to just stay away. Like I said, this isn't a debate about the merits of a mall in Detroit, it is an simple exercise seeking to find out where would one locate a mall in Detroit if it could be done. I know I can't silence peoples' opinions, but Detroitnerd, you are a Debbie-Downer.

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No offense but it's an odd question. When shopping malls are built developers take into consideration many things which determine its potential viability and you're are asking people to ignore these realities. Using your criteria it makes about as much sense to build a mall at 7 mile and John R as it does downtown. Both would be failures.

Mall ? Ummm they have been a disappearing aspect for the last 10 years,the new concept is a strip mall of sorts designed in a U shape kinda replicating the old style downtowns with shops on the bottom and apts on the top but most cases the top is a facade or storage space for the business ,quick and easy to get in and out and no place for the unruly to congregate.

Cheaper to build more pleasing to the eye and because of lower rents easier for mom and pops to establish.

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Originally Posted by softailrider

How about put it anywhere that is surrounded by plenty of adequate parking. That way nobody has to deal with a bunch of meter maids driving around terrorizing people and taking a delight in making people miserable.

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So if your parked legal, they still make your life miserable? or if your parked illegal?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by canuck

Developers have not opened up to Detroit in the retail end and that is a mystery to me. Detroit could handle 4 or 5 malls easily if carefully planned and tied into transit and street revitalization. .

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What fantasy world do you live in that allowed you to type the above quote and not laugh your ass off?

Purely as a thought experiment, I would think an outlet mall positioned near the as-yet-unbuilt-DRIC would be worth thinking about. The idea would be create a draw for folks outside of the rigid downtown 9-to-5ers. Those office folk just want to get home to be with their families, so even considering them into any mall plan is a proven money waster.

Those outlet malls always seem to be jammed with folks looking for a deal, so put one near the new bridge and redevelop a chunk of DelRay. How about the site of the 1890 expo? It would feature a breathtaking view of Zug Island, but maybe with a good scrubbing and some new curtains ...

I believe a retail center can work in Detroit, but it needs to be something different from what is typically thought of as a "mall." The days of a shopping mall with a bunch of small shops & a few large stores with a food court & a parking lot that covers acres and acres are pretty much done, and Detroit doesn't need to copy a suburban model of success that has waned.

As opposed to Norfolk's MacArthur Center, I would love to see a development like the Bronx Gateway Center.

http://gatewaycenteratbronxterminalm...com/index.html

As I previously mentioned, I believe that an excellent location would be by MCS. There is plenty of land to build stores & parking decks. It is centrally located. Convenient to three major highways. And being by a popular unused train station that is supposedly going to be rehabbed would provide great visibility. Perhaps Moron's family would even look to getting a piece of the pie & get MCS involved.

I'm all for outlet stores as well! Moron may even look kindly upon it, as outlets would draw people across his bridge... it is fairly convenient to Canadians. :)

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Originally Posted by jtf1972

I believe a retail center can work in Detroit, but it needs to be something different from what is typically thought of as a "mall." The days of a shopping mall with a bunch of small shops & a few large stores with a food court & a parking lot that covers acres and acres are pretty much done, and Detroit doesn't need to copy a suburban model of success that has waned.

As opposed to Norfolk's MacArthur Center, I would love to see a development like the Bronx Gateway Center.

http://gatewaycenteratbronxterminalm...com/index.html

As I previously mentioned, I believe that an excellent location would be by MCS. There is plenty of land to build stores & parking decks. It is centrally located. Convenient to three major highways. And being by a popular unused train station that is supposedly going to be rehabbed would provide great visibility. Perhaps Moron's family would even look to getting a piece of the pie & get MCS involved.

I'm all for outlet stores as well! Moron may even look kindly upon it, as outlets would draw people across his bridge... it is fairly convenient to Canadians. :)

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There ya go email a supermarket tell them you have a location with a build to suit,email 50 different chain stores sandwich shops even throw a Chucky Cheese in there with the same have them all give you a letter of interest ,put it all in an manilla envelope and hand it to Mr Moroun he is a business man and you will be showing him viable reason to move forward.

Naa... I'd rather just go online & sneer at anybody who has any positive ideas.

How about just south of 9mile off of Greenfield? I think that's where the future is.

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Originally Posted by jtf1972

Naa... I'd rather just go online & sneer at anybody who has any positive ideas.

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I hope that you do not think I was sneering at you I was being serious and telling you to take your positive idea to the next level thats how things like that get done. A letter of interest is a company saying that you have presented a a plan to them ,they like it and would be interested in moving forward or looking into it more,that is like cash in the bank when it comes to funding.

They should redo Grand River/Oakman aka "Hope Plaza". If that church wasn't built there, we could have a Marshall's or Forman Mills moved into that building. All that space could've been occupied. Does anyone of you remembered Town Pride grocery store on the corner of Oakman/Elmhurst? That space could have been useful for an expansion of Juno's

New Center One! Bring Back Crowleys and Saks!

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Originally Posted by lincoln8740

What fantasy world do you live in that allowed you to type the above quote and not laugh your ass off?

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My fantasy works, yours is out there somewhere, try to get a hold of it. Detroit's metro region is one of the wealthiest in the world. It is wealthier in GDP than places like Sao Paolo Brazil with a population of 20 million. While they seem to be eradicating poverty at a great pace and building monorails and subways and high-speed rail, you are laughing off the potential of a couple of malls in downtown Detroit?

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

New Center One! Bring Back Crowleys and Saks!

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Right you are: We can have a major mall anchored by Crowley's, Woodward & Lathrop, Miller & Rhoads, and Montgomery Wards. On the outparcels, we can have big box stores like Caldor, JM Fields, Woolco, and Circuit City. Maybe Robert Hall could open up a store in the mall.

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Originally Posted by canuck

My fantasy works, yours is out there somewhere, try to get a hold of it. Detroit's metro region is one of the wealthiest in the world. It is wealthier in GDP than places like Sao Paolo Brazil with a population of 20 million. While they seem to be eradicating poverty at a great pace and building monorails and subways and high-speed rail, you are laughing off the potential of a couple of malls in downtown Detroit?

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So, riddle me this: Why would Great Lakes Crossing locate itself out in the boondocks instead of in a prime location like downtown Detroit?

I don't know about a mall, but when I visited Boston, I was really impressed with Quincy Market. It had elements of a mall, but it blended so well into the area that it made it a very cool public place. Perhaps if the Ford Auditorium was demolished they could build some medium density shopping spaces that would open up onto Hart Plaza or something like that. Or perhaps where some of the parking lots are along the Riverwalk east of the Ren Cen.

I do agree that other things need to happen first, but if we are playing hypothetical scenarios here, then these would be ideas I wouldn't mind seeing.

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Originally Posted by canuck

My fantasy works, yours is out there somewhere, try to get a hold of it. Detroit's metro region is one of the wealthiest in the world. It is wealthier in GDP than places like Sao Paolo Brazil with a population of 20 million.

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But you're acting like Detroit lacks malls or retailing.

The region has tons of shopping; probably too much relative to population and wealth. There's no shortage of retailing whatsoever, from the highest end to bargain shopping.

Your issue seems to be the retailer locations. They want to be in the suburbs [[which is apparently where consumers want them), and you want them downtown.

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Originally Posted by canuck

While they seem to be eradicating poverty at a great pace and building monorails and subways and high-speed rail, you are laughing off the potential of a couple of malls in downtown Detroit?

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None of these things have anything to do with downtown retailing.

BTW, Latin America has relatively weak downtowns. The wealth and upscale shopping in places like Mexico City and Sao Paulo are almost exclusively on the auto-oriented suburban fringe. The downtown core is for very low-end bargain outlets for the poor.

In Mexico City, for example, the most desirable shopping and corporate area is in Santa Fe, which is a suburb that basically looks like a supersized Troy or Southfield. The most desirable residential areas are immediately adjacent to Santa Fe. No train or pedestrian friendliness there, nor will there ever be.

Correction, Detroit used to have three malls. Trapper's Alley, Ren Cen and Tower Center Mall at the Old Ward's Building. Now there are useless un-actractive shopping districts!

I would like to see an Eaton Centre like mall on the old Hudson Site. I think in this spot, it would spur development out to the street level, just as it has done in Toronto.

http://www.torontoeatoncentre.com/EN...s/default.aspx

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Originally Posted by royce

To Detroitnerd and other naysayers, I requested that those of you who didn't have anything positive to say to just stay away.

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Yes, we lemmings know perfectly well where we want to go. We certainly don't need any "negativity." Everything is going to be just fine when we get where we're going... :p

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Originally Posted by Hermod

So, riddle me this: Why would Great Lakes Crossing locate itself out in the boondocks instead of in a prime location like downtown Detroit?

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Because the abandonment of Detroit is a 60 year old trend. Because persistent lack of vision that has made boondocks more palatable than a historic city center still has a hold. Because the cannot do attitude and the repulsion many whites have for black empowerment continues unabated. Along the same lines,
transit extending into suburbia is a touchy issue, because of greater integration.

The question is not whether malls pop up in the middle of nowhere; they do. The question is; those who can make a difference resist the idea of investing in downtown for reasons that remain mysterious because they are not openly debated in the political realm. They are in places like DetroitYes.

In any other city, adding another mall would be a non-issue fer chrissakes! But the problem is a real one, it begs an answer since it is another piece of equipment that Detroiters need to enable local shopping, provide jobs, extend the offer to tourists.

There is a dismissive and punitive attitude toward Detroit that one can read through your question and others like it...

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Originally Posted by canuck

Because the cannot do attitude and the repulsion many whites have for black empowerment continues unabated. Along the same lines,

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Great Lakes Crossing is in Pontiac School District, and sits a few streets from Pontiac city limits.

There is certainly no shortage of African American and Latino patrons at Great Lakes Crossing. Adjacent sections of North Pontiac are very heavily Black/Latino.

The mall was obviously built because of vacant land and space for an exit along I-75.

In my opinion malls have reached the end of their life span. What Detroit needs is a legitimate shopping district. The district becomes the shopping destination, not the sprawling newly built buildings known as the mall.

eaton centre is a great example, as is michigan ave in chicago, and 16th street in denver

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

But you're acting like Detroit lacks malls or retailing.

The region has tons of shopping; probably too much relative to population and wealth. There's no shortage of retailing whatsoever, from the highest end to bargain shopping.

Your issue seems to be the retailer locations. They want to be in the suburbs [[which is apparently where consumers want them), and you want them downtown.

None of these things have anything to do with downtown retailing.

BTW, Latin America has relatively weak downtowns. The wealth and upscale shopping in places like Mexico City and Sao Paulo are almost exclusively on the auto-oriented suburban fringe. The downtown core is for very low-end bargain outlets for the poor.

In Mexico City, for example, the most desirable shopping and corporate area is in Santa Fe, which is a suburb that basically looks like a supersized Troy or Southfield. The most desirable residential areas are immediately adjacent to Santa Fe. No train or pedestrian friendliness there, nor will there ever be.

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I am not familiar with Mexico City, but you can find a mix of both high and low end shopping in downtown L.A. for instance. Broadway is a mix of mexican bodegas and everybit as lively and essential to the people as all the rest. The issue is about a shopping mall that helps bring a focus to the downtown shopper not the other way around. You want folks to stay in the city center. I am not saying there is no shopping in Detroit metro, that would be silly, but one can debate about the need for revitalizing the core!? A shopping venue, might be composed by a string of streetfront shops along Woodward, and connected by tunnels/overpasses at intersections [[helpful in the winter months).
The core could do this by using what is there, but making it more attractive and special than what exists elsewhere. The trend in malls toward Power Centers where they are recreating Disneyfied streetlike shopping sort of defeats the purpose when you have that package available in the CBD.
Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

The region has tons of shopping; probably too much relative to population and wealth. There's no shortage of retailing whatsoever, from the highest end to bargain shopping.

Your issue seems to be the retailer locations. They want to be in the suburbs [[which is apparently where consumers want them), and you want them downtown.

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Really?? Seems pretty limited to me, especially when it comes to non-chain stores. The suburbs contain strip malls, and each strip mall contains the same dozen or so stores. The malls all contain the same 50-100 or so stores. Then there are the same dozen or so big box stores. Those are your main options. Then there are tiny retail districts like Birmingham, Royal Oak or Ferndale which contain a few unique shops. So we have tops maybe 200-300 stores to choose from, out of 5 million people?

One thing that keeps getting brought up to me about Detroit [[from outsiders, not suburbanites like you who are satisfied with their options) is the extreme LACK of retail. They don't like how there is no shopping in the city, and don't like how you have to go to the suburbs, and when you get there its just mediocre. Same stupid stores as every other suburb in any other metro.

This concern is often alongside lack of restaurants, entertainment, and above all adequate transportation [[walkability, access to public transit) and perception of safety [[mostly do to the desolate nature of our neighborhoods and even our Downtown). Sure, we have some of the best restaurants, museums and venues anywhere in Michigan, but its not enough to provide the sort of everyday lifestyle outsiders want.

Young people flock to NYC but they also flock away from it, because it is so expensive. They will consider what city to move to next. The top choice is often Philly, followed by New Orleans, Portland, Seattle, Oakland, etc. Detroit is becoming a top choice as well, but once someone gets here to visit they change their mind. I wonder why. It has come up many times on this forum that Detroit's reputation around the country and is really bad, but for many young people the reputation is "really fucking bad ass." But reputation and perceived "coolness" is not enough. When they get here they still ask "wait, where is the city?" I still have no answer.

A mall would not solve this "where is the city?" problem either, or a stadium, or anything catering to suburbanites. What would solve this is investment in mass transit, and other urban infrastructure and development of walkable urban neighborhoods in and surrounding the core of the city.

absolutely no Taubman style mall

arcades would be cool - Nickels Arcade - walkable, protected but still mostly open air, typically smaller storefronts - any big boxes should be forced into ground floor retail space in larger buildings instead of being allowed to build their mostly single-use stand-alone monstrosities

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Originally Posted by lilpup

absolutely no Taubman style mall

arcades would be cool - Nickels Arcade - walkable, protected but still mostly open air, typically smaller storefronts - any big boxes should be forced into ground floor retail space in larger buildings instead of being allowed to build their mostly single-use stand-alone monstrosities

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Definite yes on the reuse front; there should be an effort given to occupation of large ground spaces, increasing sheltered connectivity between city blocks in this nordic city. Pedestrian malling around the Ford Auditorium if that bldg were to disappear or be reused in another form. Making small shops accessible near the COBO to facilitate growth of retail where the potential lies and pushing that section outward. The city needs to engage with developers and promote businesses according to specific areas of downtown. That is one of the things Eastern market is doing well with respect to adding a food court-type area. People will linger and explore new tastes when the new equipment exists. Small retail is labor intensive, and in the case of agricultural products, the opportunity for selling locally produced ciders, wines, jams, cheeses increases employment in the making and the selling of wares. The city center needs to be an attractive alternative to suburban malls, other cities have managed to keep retail alive in their core to varying degrees of success, Detroit needs to recuperate some of the magnetizing effect of Hudsons et al.

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Originally Posted by Danny

Correction, Detroit used to have three malls. Trapper's Alley, Ren Cen and Tower Center Mall at the Old Ward's Building. Now there are useless un-actractive shopping districts!

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You forgot New Center One, that was the only mall with an actual Department Store. It had a Gantos, a Winkleman's, a Waldenbooks, and a number of other now gone to the graveyard stores.

Why we have a beautiful downtown mall, Cadillac Square, you know the one that was built so Hudson's could move out of it's aging building, the one that also has Sears and Penny's.

After all it was a promise made by Coleman Young, and he never let our city down.

Ken

PS Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

For the younger forum members, in 1978 JL Hudson made an official notice that if Cadillac Square was not under construction by 1982, they would close the downtown store.
Hudson's at first mandated that Cadillac Square have 2 other anchors signed on, but later agreed to at least one other store. Needless to say Cadillac Square never happened, and Hudson's made it's downtown closing announcement in August of '82, with the actual store closing in January of '83.

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

One thing that keeps getting brought up to me about Detroit [[from outsiders, not suburbanites like you who are satisfied with their options) is the extreme LACK of retail. They don't like how there is no shopping in the city, and don't like how you have to go to the suburbs, and when you get there its just mediocre. Same stupid stores as every other suburb in any other metro.

This concern is often alongside lack of restaurants, entertainment, and above all adequate transportation [[walkability, access to public transit) and perception of safety [[mostly do to the desolate nature of our neighborhoods and even our Downtown). Sure, we have some of the best restaurants, museums and venues anywhere in Michigan, but its not enough to provide the sort of everyday lifestyle outsiders want.

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You really hit the nail on the head here. Bham is right that the Detroit area is over-retailed. On the other hand, the biggest flaw of the Detroit area retail is that for all of that excess, hardly any of it is in a place to give the region the most "bang for its buck". There is no iconic shopping district in Metro Detroit to impress visitors.

And it's even worse with the hotel situation in Detroit. I was recently helping to book hotel rooms in downtown Detroit for some friends of mine who will be visiting for the first time. There are plenty of hotels located haphazardly throughout the metropolitan area, but the problem is that so few of them are concentrated in a single geographic area. And so few of them were located in proximity to the few cultural and civic assets of Detroit [[basically near the museums or downtown). Nor were any near the geographic asset of the region [[basically a riverfront or lake front). No one wants to be imprisoned in a hotel room surrounded by a sea of parking spaces while they are visiting your city, including business travelers.

A hotel is probably the one thing that a city/metropolitan should not allow to be thrown just anywhere. Hotels are almost exclusively patronized by people who live outside of the region. The impression of the hotel and the area surrounding it is what they will use to assess whether the place they are visiting is interesting or not. That's why people go to "Miami" and have a pleasurable experience on Miami Beach, while the actual city of Miami sits a couple miles to the west and much of it looks like a Hell hole. People are fond of Baltimore and its Inner Harbor yet the stuff happening in some of the neighborhoods might even shock the writers of the Wire. And everyone measures Chicago by its Loop and adjacent neighborhoods rather than the heavily deteriorated south and west neighborhoods that make even a native Detroiter like me a bit nervous. And most importantly, Detroit's lack of attractions is why everyone obsesses over Detroit's flaws, because there is really nothing else there that is of interest to talk about!

I don't think a mall would work in Detroit for chain anchor stores comes and goes and then you would have a Northland type ghetto mall in the middle of the city. I do think that the empty spaces inside these buildings downtown such as the Penobscott, First National, 1001 Woodward, Dime, and Compuware have enough space to house independent high quality boutiques to a national retail store such as Ann Taylor's Loft, Gap, Guess, etc. Having stores housed in each building increase pedestrial traffic in the downtown area. Downtown would have that old fashion flare that it once had years ago before the RenCen. If Detroit must have a mall then I would rather have it on Jefferson or Gratiot in the most desolate area away from the downtown, midtown, or New Center area where many streetline shops would operate

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

You really hit the nail on the head here. Bham is right that the Detroit area is over-retailed. On the other hand, the biggest flaw of the Detroit area retail is that for all of that excess, hardly any of it is in a place to give the region the most "bang for its buck". There is no iconic shopping district in Metro Detroit to impress visitors.

And it's even worse with the hotel situation in Detroit. I was recently helping to book hotel rooms in downtown Detroit for some friends of mine who will be visiting for the first time. There are plenty of hotels located haphazardly throughout the metropolitan area, but the problem is that so few of them are concentrated in a single geographic area. And so few of them were located in proximity to the few cultural and civic assets of Detroit [[basically near the museums or downtown). Nor were any near the geographic asset of the region [[basically a riverfront or lake front). No one wants to be imprisoned in a hotel room surrounded by a sea of parking spaces while they are visiting your city, including business travelers.

A hotel is probably the one thing that a city/metropolitan should not allow to be thrown just anywhere. Hotels are almost exclusively patronized by people who live outside of the region. The impression of the hotel and the area surrounding it is what they will use to assess whether the place they are visiting is interesting or not. That's why people go to "Miami" and have a pleasurable experience on Miami Beach, while the actual city of Miami sits a couple miles to the west and much of it looks like a Hell hole. People are fond of Baltimore and its Inner Harbor yet the stuff happening in some of the neighborhoods might even shock the writers of the Wire. And everyone measures Chicago by its Loop and adjacent neighborhoods rather than the heavily deteriorated south and west neighborhoods that make even a native Detroiter like me a bit nervous. And most importantly, Detroit's lack of attractions is why everyone obsesses over Detroit's flaws, because there is really nothing else there that is of interest to talk about!

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Detroit had continued to live up to it's reputation as the Motor City eventhough more cars are build in other states than Detroit. Saying that, every area in the metropolitan area is more car friendly/reliance than more tourist friendly. There should had been shuttle busses that would take shoppers directly to the shopping centers from downtown when downtown retaling was declining. Visitors to this city would had a way to do shopping without having to interact with regular bus riders while traveling out to the different malls. But the bought and paid for leaders wanted to please their sugar daddies[[corporations) by forcing tourist and residents alike to rely on an automobile whether rental, privately owned, or taxi cab to get to the shopping districts

What would work in Detroit is a pseudo mall with a generous food court, and a couple stores that cater to office workers...a FedEx Kinkos, convenience store, Barber shop/hair salon, a store that sells greeting cards and stationary......I mean this example is pretty much the most basic and minimalist you can get in any downtown, and every major city downtown at least has this....the RenCen being somewhat of an example. I suppose there's always room for another.

But unless you have a powerhouse shopping destination known worldwide, don't even attempt to build a mall. Many cities have tried and failed. The only reason why WaterTower, 900 Center, and Northbridge in Chicago stay in business is because they've become staple attractions where tourists always go, and also contain a variety of stores that are exclusive or high end. I'm honestly worried about the new Block 37 mall. It was built just a fraction of what it was supposed to be. Though it will be fully leased and occupied by 2012, I still consider it failure, by nature that it's just a shopping mall with an office tower on top...not the multi-use mega complex/tower that was promised.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

You forgot New Center One, that was the only mall with an actual Department Store. It had a Gantos, a Winkleman's, a Waldenbooks, and a number of other now gone to the graveyard stores.

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Tower Center Mall was a joke when it first opened in 1994 or 95. New Center One was a mall but could not keep good tenants. It had also taken business away from the shops that had lined Woodward near Grand Blvd. You could only have one; independently owned boutiques and shops lined along the ave or a mall but not both

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Originally Posted by stasu1213

Detroit had continued to live up to it's reputation as the Motor City eventhough more cars are build in other states than Detroit. Saying that, every area in the metropolitan area is more car friendly/reliance than more tourist friendly. There should had been shuttle busses that would take shoppers directly to the shopping centers from downtown when downtown retaling was declining. Visitors to this city would had a way to do shopping without having to interact with regular bus riders while traveling out to the different malls. But the bought and paid for leaders wanted to please their sugar daddies[[corporations) by forcing tourist and residents alike to rely on an automobile whether rental, privately owned, or taxi cab to get to the shopping districts

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If Detroit want's to continue to cater to car culture then they can settle with vertical big box cities. These things are cancers and I wish most cities would ban these types of developments, but I suppose it would be a good starting point for Detroit:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Roosev...46.92,,0,-9.23

Even worse:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Roosev...,0.005595&z=18

For one thing it's the 'one hour' max meters and scarcity of them that make shopping or functioning downtown a bit miserable.

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Originally Posted by ThisIsForTheHeart

So if your parked legal, they still make your life miserable? or if your parked illegal?:rolleyes:

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wolverine, this is the kind of new town center type of development built around a big box mall in metro Montreal.
The first one sits ironically on what was once a big General Motors plant in Boisbriand northeast of Montreal.

The other is in south shore Brossard where it can take anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour to commute to downtown depending on traffic on the three bridges that span the river close to downtown. According to articles I read, some folks in small towns dont come to shop in downtown Montreal to avoid the traffic and parking expenses. There is an Alt hotel to make it a weekend shopping experience. Ogilvy's department store, an old fixture in Montreal since 1867 just built a new one in that ersatz town where they build streetfront plazas and residential districts with monster homes and condos. This car centric kind of development gives the illusion of a town and creates a captive consumer clique by building houses in close proximity. This is a logical follow up to the suburban dream but with more vapid characteristics. The second one is called Quartier dix30. Quartier means neighborhood and dix30 refers to the romantic intrersection of highways 10 and 30. The same developer wants to build a huge project near downtown in an old industrial neighborhood of Griffintown.

http://www.faubourgboisbriand.com/
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=fr&ie=...115.28,,0,1.86

as an alternative to just a mall, I would like to see a coney island [[brooklyn) style amusement park, with roller coasters, ferris wheel, other rides and attractions, and have some retail shops interspersed throughout an open-air setting. growing up here in Detroit, folks inevitably go to Cedar Point, Kings Island, or the upstate amusement parks.. why can't Detroit have one? Not the same thing as a casino, this would be family friendly entertainment and retail..

There used to be amusement parks in and around Detroit but they all went out of business [[as Coney Island spots are doing, now, too).

Hate to use my screen name, but Eastland Mall has a Macy's, Sear's and Target; it mainly serves Detroit residents, and it seems to be on life-support. That rules out the eastside as a location for a Detroit mall.

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Originally Posted by Hypestyles

as an alternative to just a mall, I would like to see a coney island [[brooklyn) style amusement park, with roller coasters, ferris wheel, other rides and attractions, and have some retail shops interspersed throughout an open-air setting. growing up here in Detroit, folks inevitably go to Cedar Point, Kings Island, or the upstate amusement parks.. why can't Detroit have one? Not the same thing as a casino, this would be family friendly entertainment and retail..

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During Christmas I did get a change to explore one of these places, the Santa Monica Pier. If you can find land on the water and make it so that people feel extrmely safe it may work, but then again as a previous poster said, it might not. People are very fickle. What was hot and trendy this year may not be next year.

I think being completely dismissive of malls, or centers, or other concentrated retail is very short-sighted. They are needed too.

I know that this type of retail offends some people's sense of aesthetics, but bear in mind that [[1) name-brand retail predominantly "clusters" around certain tenants [[it's well-documented there are "leaders" and "followers" when it comes to joining projects - which is why centers build anchor stores for free) and [[2) there are segments of the population [[families, professionals, and other busy people) who don't have a tremendous amount of time to devote to shopping but exercise tremendous spending power.

And a lot of this depends on your stage of life. Your age and whether you have children have a big effect on what looks like attractive retail. People here seem to extrapolate from their own experience the way "things should be." But dig deeper, and you'll see that the needs of a Wayne State student are not the same as a single head of household are not the same as a retiree.

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Originally Posted by Huggybear

But dig deeper, and you'll see that the needs of a Wayne State student are not the same as a single head of household are not the same as a retiree.

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So why do we make everyone do their shopping at a one-size-fits-all shopping mall full of chain retailers, then?

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

So why do we make everyone do their shopping at a one-size-fits-all shopping mall full of chain retailers, then?

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Shhhh! We're going to bring in prosperity by building malls! ;)

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Shhhh! We're going to bring in prosperity by building malls! ;)

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Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.;)

I think if there is to be a concentration of any sort of stores, there should be a focus of sorts on a specific niche. I'd favor the outlet store concept. Why drive all the way out to BFE to save a few dollars shopping, when the same could be had locally?

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Originally Posted by Vox

Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.;)

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Yeah, that'd be really fucking hilarious IF IT DIDN'T WORK EVERYWHERE ELSE. Rebury your head in the sand. ;)

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I think if there is to be a concentration of any sort of stores, there should be a focus of sorts on a specific niche. I'd favor the outlet store concept. Why drive all the way out to BFE to save a few dollars shopping, when the same could be had locally?

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You're overthinking this. Before you have shopping, you need to have disposable income. To create disposable income, you need to have high employment and wages. To get high employment and wages, you have to stop bleeding educated people out of Michigan.

You can build Saks Fifth Avenue/Barney's/Tiffany's megastore in downtown Detroit. It would certainly be "unique", but it ain't gonna do jack shit if nobody shows up.

[QUOTE=Vox;241736]Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.;)

Bear with me, I am onto something!

There are probably more innovative ways to lure folks into the city and sticking around other than by building light rail or shopping venues. I would start looking into maybe a whopping budget-style parking tower designed by Frank Gehry or Jean Nouvel or Norman Foster. There has to be something that can draw crowds into the city apart from silly shopping and an odd sports event...
Cheap parking in a 50 story tower with elevators. [[Sao Paulo has some) This would certainly make more sense than a choo-choo train to nowhere and would rake in tourism money. Next to Cobo hall is the destination. People from all over would congregate to worship said structure for its sculptural qualities and not least; its convenience. Never mind the Woodward revival, just think suburban access by automobile to this monument to suburban efficiency. Never mind access to shops; I am talking about the status quo with an added feature: a parking lot of immense proportions. No political involvement is needed, no controversy, no naysaying, a green flag, a checkered flag; go!

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Yeah, that'd be really fucking hilarious IF IT DIDN'T WORK EVERYWHERE ELSE. Rebury your head in the sand. ;)



You're overthinking this. Before you have shopping, you need to have disposable income. To create disposable income, you need to have high employment and wages. To get high employment and wages, you have to stop bleeding educated people out of Michigan.

You can build Saks Fifth Avenue/Barney's/Tiffany's megastore in downtown Detroit. It would certainly be "unique", but it ain't gonna do jack shit if nobody shows up.

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You can also leave things as they are and nobody will show up and the job situation will remain what it is or worsen.

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Originally Posted by canuck

Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.;)

Bear with me, I am onto something!

There are probably more innovative ways to lure folks into the city and sticking around other than by building light rail or shopping venues. I would start looking into maybe a whopping budget-style parking tower designed by Frank Gehry or Jean Nouvel or Norman Foster. There has to be something that can draw crowds into the city apart from silly shopping and an odd sports event...

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I had hoped you were joking, but your last sentence in the paragraph indicates you're dead serious about this.

The word "lure" is Code for "trick", "cheat", "bamboozle", "bullshit". Is that REALLY how you want to build a city? By tricking and bribing people into showing up? What are the odds they'll return of their own volition?

You know what's the absolute BEST way to "lure" people to a city? When people WAKE UP THERE EVERY MORNING AND GO TO BED THERE EVERY NIGHT.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I had hoped you were joking, but your last sentence in the paragraph indicates you're dead serious about this.

The word "lure" is Code for "trick", "cheat", "bamboozle", "bullshit". Is that REALLY how you want to build a city? By tricking and bribing people into showing up? What are the odds they'll return of their own volition?

You know what's the absolute BEST way to "lure" people to a city? When people WAKE UP THERE EVERY MORNING AND GO TO BED THERE EVERY NIGHT.

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Do you live in Detroit?

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I had hoped you were joking, but your last sentence in the paragraph indicates you're dead serious about this.

The word "lure" is Code for "trick", "cheat", "bamboozle", "bullshit". Is that REALLY how you want to build a city? By tricking and bribing people into showing up? What are the odds they'll return of their own volition?

You know what's the absolute BEST way to "lure" people to a city? When people WAKE UP THERE EVERY MORNING AND GO TO BED THERE EVERY NIGHT.

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We have an expression in french referring to your last sentence; Métro-boulot-dodo. In short it means a very dull day or week or sequence in a life where you take the train to work and back home to sleep...

That is not very realistic and it doesnt leave much room for the fanciful either. I wouldnt expect that from you Gp. There will always be a bamboozling in attracting people anywhere. There was a lot of it in eleventh century Paris and there is obviously a whole lot of it in places like Vegas. I mean, you need to create an environment that attracts and keeps folks in the downtown so that the cigar store on the corner is as much of a working feature of the city as the bus stop and the convention center. Tourists also have to expect a shopping mall in Detroit. I relate attractions to urban equipment; not just frivolous stuff: but that too! Some people on this thread mention the need for an amusement park and they think it is important to have one nearer Detroit proper. That is legitimate and to me, not unnecessary. The biggest mistake our friend Bloomberg in New York has made in his Dont Fuck with Mr Clean campaign is to slowly dismantle Coney Island. Maybe the Russian mafia is a scary feature of that hood and he is being cautious I dont know. But I think Coney Island is as important as the High Line Park. Maybe Bloomberg has some bad memories of trying to get some action under the boardwalk at sixteen and getting turned down.

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Originally Posted by canuck

We have an expression in french referring to your last sentence; Métro-boulot-dodo. In short it means a very dull day or week or sequence in a life where you take the train to work and back home to sleep...

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Just speaking for myself, if I worked downtown, I'd welcome napping in a safe, comfy seat on a light rail or commuter train versus contending with the mad rush of automotive idiots, some of whom aren't even insured around here...

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Originally Posted by canuck

The biggest mistake our friend Bloomberg in New York has made in his Dont Fuck with Mr Clean campaign is to slowly dismantle Coney Island.

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They're substantially growing the amusement portion of Coney Island. I was there last summer and it's much bigger than before.

They have a new Italian-owned amusement park, which is a ton better than the older amusements. They also have a new roller coaster and rides for this year.

There has been a Coney Island "clean-up", but it's basically a transition from seedy and declining to family-friendly and growing. Not a bad change if you ask me.

As for shopping malls, they definitely can be huge economic growth engines.

Look at Novi. It was a nothing hick town before Twelve Oaks. The mall spawned thousands of jobs and huge new tax revenue. Same thing with Great Lakes Crossing and Hall Road corridor.

Wow, I didnt know that. Very happy to hear that! Thanks Bham!

Yes, malls are important too. They may be structured in ways where cars arent the only way to get to them if you dont need to fill your trunk. I guess downtown malls with good transit choices can eliminate the need for car travel if you are shopping for clothes or smaller items. If someone kicks the habit of driving into town and enjoy the freedom of pedestrian access, they invariably will explore and frequent other businesses. For the price of a limited parking meter time, you can take the bus or train at your convenience and avoid the rush hour madness, the cost of gas, the added mileage on your car...

Sterling Heights

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Look at Novi. It was a nothing hick town before Twelve Oaks. The mall spawned thousands of jobs and huge new tax revenue. Same thing with Great Lakes Crossing and Hall Road corridor.

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Spawned? Or relocated?

I think you mean the latter.

I've got nothing against "fanciful" or "nice" things, but when a city like Detroit lacks basic functioning equipment like reliable transit service, walkable streets, adequate police and fire protection, and amenities like drug and hardware stores in neighborhoods, constructing shopping malls for hypothetical would-be tourists falls WAY down the priority list.

When was the last time YOU took a vacation to visit a shopping mall?

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

When was the last time YOU took a vacation to visit a shopping mall?

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You have obviously never vacationed with a gay man.

Shopping as tourism is pretty common.

Somerset Inn on Big Beaver is almost entirely sustained by vacationing visitors to Somerset.

And a quick glance at the Somerset parking lot will reveal tons of out-of-state plates. Especially tons of Ohio and Ontario, but folks from all over.

Like it or not, Somerset has the best upscale shopping between NYC and Chicago.

I've long wondered how a shopping mall would do in Detroit. Something on the scale of the Eaton Centre in Toronto, maybe a little smaller scale. I think something on the riverfront east of the Ren Cen would be a good spot.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Shopping as tourism is pretty common.

Somerset Inn on Big Beaver is almost entirely sustained by vacationing visitors to Somerset.

And a quick glance at the Somerset parking lot will reveal tons of out-of-state plates. Especially tons of Ohio and Ontario, but folks from all over.

Like it or not, Somerset has the best upscale shopping between NYC and Chicago.

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So copy Somerset within the city limits of Detroit, wait for people "from all over" to show up, and then everything is gravy, right? The snow will get plowed, police will show up, people will be able to get to work, and no one will have to buy groceries from a liquor store.

Gee, it's so simple, it makes you wonder why it hasn't been done already!

Shopping malls are dying all over the country, and you clowns want to build yet more of the sterile, corporate-owned, plastic-generic claptrap with the same 100 stores you can find anywhere else. Good luck with that. Since y'all are native-born Detroiters and all, I'm sure you're well-versed in the history of the retail space of the Renaissance Center, but I digress....

DETROIT: Home of ideas that failed 20 years ago elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Shopping as tourism is pretty common.

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He didn't say "shopping as tourism", he said "took a vacation to visit a shopping mall". You know that hardly anyone is coming from more than a 50 mile radius to shop at Somerset, unlike the urban shopping districts in Chicago and NYC which derive a significant percentage of their customer base from legitimate out of town visitors. Somerset was never meant to be a tourist destination.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

He didn't say "shopping as tourism", he said "took a vacation to visit a shopping mall". You know that hardly anyone is coming from more than a 50 mile radius to shop at Somerset, unlike the urban shopping districts in Chicago and NYC which derive a significant percentage of their customer base from legitimate out of town visitors. Somerset was never meant to be a tourist destination.

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I don't see the difference, and yes, I think many Somerset visitors come from afar.

Probably 10% of the cars in the lot are from Ohio, so they're all from further away. Ohio has no equivalent shopping.

And all the nearby hotels have Somerset shopping packages.

Really, I don't think its any different than vacationing visitors clogging the streets in Manhattan's SoHo.

Now obviously these are two very different shopping environments, and the specific demographic will be different, but both derive heavy dependence on shopping as tourism.

Same thing at Great Lakes Crossing to a certain extent. Folks from Up North, Indiana, and all over.

I can't stand shopping malls, but obviously folks disagree. The same fannypack bus tour crowd that loves Frankenmuth fills Great Lakes Crossing.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

So copy Somerset within the city limits of Detroit, wait for people "from all over" to show up, and then everything is gravy, right?

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I never said a Detroit shopping mall makes sense. The regional doesn't need more malls.

I only questioned the assertion that shopping, speaking generally, isn't a potential vehicle for economic growth and tourism.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't see the difference, and yes, I think many Somerset visitors come from afar.

Probably 10% of the cars in the lot are from Ohio, so they're all from further away. Ohio has no equivalent shopping.

And all the nearby hotels have Somerset shopping packages.

Really, I don't think its any different than vacationing visitors clogging the streets in Manhattan's SoHo.

Now obviously these are two very different shopping environments, and the specific demographic will be different, but both derive heavy dependence on shopping as tourism.

Same thing at Great Lakes Crossing to a certain extent. Folks from Up North, Indiana, and all over.

I can't stand shopping malls, but obviously folks disagree. The same fannypack bus tour crowd that loves Frankenmuth fills Great Lakes Crossing.

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You can't be serious. Somerset is supported almost entirely by local dollars. I'd be absolutely shocked if more than 10% of the revenue at Somerset came from patrons who live more than 50 miles from Metro Detroit. I mean, maybe this would be feasible if Detroit were geographically isolated like Seattle, but it's sandwiched between two other very large metropolitans, Chicago and Toronto, as well as some other medium-large metropolitans, Cleveland and Cincinnati.

Northwest Ohio may not have a Somerset, so Somerset may attract some shoppers from there, but otherwise, you can find everything in Cleveland, Columbus or Cincinnati that you can find at Somerset. And Cleveland even has a Cheesecake Factory!

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

So copy Somerset within the city limits of Detroit, wait for people "from all over" to show up, and then everything is gravy, right? The snow will get plowed, police will show up, people will be able to get to work, and no one will have to buy groceries from a liquor store.

Gee, it's so simple, it makes you wonder why it hasn't been done already!

Shopping malls are dying all over the country, and you clowns want to build yet more of the sterile, corporate-owned, plastic-generic claptrap with the same 100 stores you can find anywhere else. Good luck with that. Since y'all are native-born Detroiters and all, I'm sure you're well-versed in the history of the retail space of the Renaissance Center, but I digress....

DETROIT: Home of ideas that failed 20 years ago elsewhere.

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First; when the RenCen had good retail stores they were mostly hard to find by shoppers. It was hard to navigate your way around the RenCen during the 70s to the 90s before the redesign of the interior. Second, the RenCen wasn't as inviting from the Jefferson side as well as the rear of the complex; Third, the riverwalk didn't exist during the RenCen's early years. The Riverwalk bring thousands of people by or inside the rencen yearly. Just imagine had it existed when the shops were at the RenCen. I still say use the first levels of these office buildings downtown for retail. The Penobscot could have some retail and shoppers could walk down Woodward to the Dime, Buhl, First National, and along merchants row for more shops. Each large building has it's own security who sits near the entrances to curtail the potential influx of shoplifting and other crimes, Also. leave the 9 ot 5 mondays thru fridays hours of operation mindset crap behind. Have hours such as 10 to 7 on weekdays and open on weekends for Godsake.Nothing to do downtown on a weekend outside of festivals and the like but the suburbs have all the major shopping destination

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

I never said a Detroit shopping mall makes sense. The regional doesn't need more malls.

I only questioned the assertion that shopping, speaking generally, isn't a potential vehicle for economic growth and tourism.

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It's quite a valid assertion--shopping malls-as-tourism rely on people from "elsewhere" being "lured" to a place and spending their dollars there instead of at "home". In other words, it's a form of economic development that relies entirely on geographic shifting of cash. It doesn't produce anything new, it doesn't create anything new--just like a casino, it's just a way for people to show up, drop cash, and leave. This is a TRANSFER of wealth, not wealth creation. And with a shopping mall, you're just transferring wealth within the micro-economy of Southeastern Michigan without increasing the GDP.

So, what's the problem with that? Well, you can't base an economy on people buying the same crap from each other, because that's ultimately a zero-sum game. At some point, you need a means to generate and grow wealth that makes your cash shell-game possible in the first place. This game is also known as "The Bigger Sucker", as without being able to find a bigger sucker to drop his hard-earned dollars in your town vis-a-vis elsewhere, the whole Ponzi scheme falls apart.

Unfortunately, the Detroit region has focused "economic growth" on activities that do not generate and grow wealth:

Shopping Malls
Stadiums
Casinos

For every Twelve Oaks, there's a Wonderland. For every Somerset, there's a Northland. How's that working out in the long-run?

The proof is in the proverbial pudding. Diluting the pudding might increase the volume, but it doesn't make more pudding.

I would put a Detroit mall in Troy. Maybe I would put one in each suburb.

It will never, ever happen.

Al Taubman tried to put together a deal in the 80's for a multi-story mall on the Hudson's-Kern site a la ones in San Diego and Toronto. If anyone could have done it Taubma could. He even purchased the Cadilac Tower Building [[long story there) which he was going to demolish if he could work a deal. He was wired in with every major anchor in the country and had a lot of power over them. He couldn't put it together.

Mall tenants want to be in the center of a large population of demographically acceptable customers, with access from all directions.

To counter that objection and jump-start a residential renaissance downtown he and Max Fisher built the Riverfront Apartments. It was clear to them and everyone who was remotely familiar with real estate finance that the Riverfront would never make a dime and in fact would lose a lot of money over the years [[as it has.) At the groundbreaking someone said the project was Max and Al's "gift to the City." The prospective anchors weren't impressed and the mall idea died - forever. Except in the unreasonable dreams and fantasies of a few folks, of course.