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This morning, I saw this on Slate http://www.slate.com/id/2286746/slid...2286783/fs/0// and I would like to ask the older posters if they remember plans for this. It looks like it would have been build where the current Riverfront Apts. are located. I think it would have been impossible to host all four Detroit teams but it would have been interesting as hell for them to try it.
Thank God this fell through. Although it would be time to replace it by now, all cities have come to realize that the multi-purpose stadiums just give you lousy stadiums for each sport. Here in Toronto, they combined the worst of everything, the last multi-purpose stadium combined with a retractable dome that doesn't allow for real grass to be installed.
I didn't remember plans for the Wings to play in this proposal. There is no way you could re-install the ice in time with all the overlapping for baseball/football.
Good Lord thats bad. "Everywhere I look, something reminds me of her." - Lt. Frank Drebin
I remember when Toronto opened SkyDome. It was praised as the standard for future stadiums being built. I suppose a stadium is only good until the next stadium is built.Quote:
Originally Posted by 401don
Back to Detroit, it was good this never happened but it would have made things a bit interesting on the riverfront and in Detroit sports. The Lions and Pistons left in the 70's and the Wings were on their way though I don't believe they would have left right away. I doubt the Silverdome could have been capable to host football, basketball and hockey at the same time just like this domed stadium wouldn't been able to host all four teams.
Goodness this was 45 years ago! Why are you even debating something that never happened generations ago? :)
Yes, the SkyDome was considered a marvel at the time,a nd the Blue Jays drew huge crowds for a while after the stadium opened. Unfortunately, the SkyDome was really at the tail end of what I guess I would call the "modern" idea of stadium building, and so now it does not look as great. Compared to the SkyDome, the Tigers did pretty well with Comerica.Quote:
Originally Posted by R8RBOB
Who is debating anything? I asked if anyone knew about these plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
I remember when Sky Dome opened, it was the coolest thing. Then, I remember going to Toronto with a buddy sometime in the late 90's and seeing it and thinking how ugly it was, basically a square box. Baltimore and Cleveland have been scraping the bottom of the barrel in the MLB for years now, but they should be forever thanked as it was Jacobs Field and Camden Yards that began the renaissance of baseball stadiums.
I remember when SkyDome opened, there was a lot of cheerleading going on because they had such amenities such as a hotel and Roberto Alomar was staying in one of the suites. Stadiums and arenas when built are sold as "state of the art" and construction marvels but in the end they are nothing more than "lipstick on a pig."Quote:
Originally Posted by cman710
I think hockey and basketball can be harmoniously played in the same stadium without sacrificing the conditions for either sport.
Someone wondered why I would debate about something that never happened and it was a long time ago. For the record, I was born in 1970 and I wasn't hip on things pertaining to Detroit in 1972. [[Duh) That said, this is the first time that I was aware that there was talk about building a domed stadium on the Detroit riverfront. I was simplying asking if any of the older posters were aware of it and what was the opinion of the day about it.
Yes they can play in the same arena. I do wonder if Coleman Young had proposed to build Joe Louis Arena before the Pistons decided to move to Pontiac would Bill Davidson had stayed in Detroit. I believe he would have still left.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushStart
Get ahold of Building of Detroit by Hawkins Ferry earlier plans for it are in there along with the rest of the Civic Center by Serriean.Quote:
Originally Posted by R8RBOB
The mistakes of past generations are legion when it comes to shore property. First it was used for industry. Now, actually, at the time, it made sense: Water was the cheapest if not the only way to transport goods over long distances [[pre-1830s). Then they started laying down rail lines along the riverfront because of the even pitch. Another mistake. Building roads along riverfronts is yet ANOTHER mistake, all the worse because it's a repeat of the railroad age. Building big-ticket stadia on riverfronts is another error, because nobody gets to see the water, especially from [[duhhh) from a DOMED STADIUM. It's probably because of the architect's ego, the city fathers' warped sense of pride and ...
... the fact that, apparently, nobody has ANY IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH A WATERFRONT! At least in the post-shipping age. What it should be is a freakin' PARK. A promenade.
Of course, from the year 2011, we know a little better. And we can look back on these plans as silly.
Here's another plan from that era, 1958, actually, for Pittsburgh. It's even worse, IMHO:
Attachment 8969
Brought to you by the minds at NADCO Engineering Co., Pittsburgh 27: A proposed stadium OVER the Monongahela River, billed as a “classic structure that will blend with the Renaissance of Pittsburgh!” Completely self-liquidating! No tax loss! No land acquisition! Capacity of 70,000! Majority under cover! A 600-room hotel with gourmet restaurants! Parking stalls for 4,500 cars! World’s largest covered boat dock! Beautiful gardens overlooking river! Plus 100 air-conditioned bowling alleys! Wow!
I like what San Francisco did after the earthquake of the late 80's. They looked at the crumbled freeways running along the waterfront and the Embarcadero and came to the conclusion they were a mess. Gone! No rebuld. Then they extended the trolley lines from Market Street to Fisherman's Wharf and over to Third Street, the CalTrain station and their new stadium. Very nice.
Yes it's amazing how helpful massive natural disasters can be. Any fault lines running under detroit we can use?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive
Unfortunately, the fault along Eight Mile is non-seismic...Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I arrived in California in 2000 and I remember driving down the Embarcadero towards Fisherman's Wharf. I can only imagine how ugly that area looked having an double-decker freeway along the Embarcadero. If anyone watches Charmed, they were always showing wide-shots of SF and you would see the old double-decker.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive
That stadium in Pittsburgh would have never worked because it would be an island. The domed stadium on the riverfront was a pipe-dream but somehow someone remembered it years later because the domed stadium turned into an arena on the riverfront.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Did you mean Saarinen?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
The father [[Eliel) or the son [[Eero)??
We have our domed stadium with great potentials. It is called Ford Field. Would be nice if the Piston could play a game or two in that stadium.
The NCAA proved Ford Field is way too big for basketball.
One of the real problems with stadia on riverfronts is access. Cincinnati Riverfront stadium was a bear to get to. Getting to Joe Louis is tolerable but if it was as large as arenas typically are for other pro sports it would be a nightmare.
Wasn't it here that a b-ball floor put down over ice in a dual-use situation had warping or condensation issues?
I don't know if anyone else clicked on the link that appeared at the end of Tiger Stadium's date of playing existence in quotations? I didn't expect it to be anything of real value or anything I might not already know about the stadium. I was wrong, it was short piece done by some writers from the Detroit News back in 1999 when "Tiger" hosted it's last game.
The article consisted mostly of short quotes from people down at the ballpark on Sept, 27,1999. I've shed some tears for Tiger in the past but this article re-opened deep wounds. Detroiter's LOVED their baseball palace! Somebody made sure to take it away and foot the city with a bill for a new stadium. For any of you Tiger Stadium fans who were able to view the movie "Stranded At The Corner"[[great Tiger Stadium documentary that pulled no punches) it is clear what happened...
Stasu1213, The time to of had the Pistons play a game downtown would have been 4-5 years ago, when they were actually GOOD and Contending. I personally would NOT want them to play a game downtown anytime soon. The reason being because nobody will show up and it will give the anti-Detroit stadium crowd extra leverage when Detroit residents have to vote on a stadium referendum for the Pistons or Pistons/Red Wings depending how things go in terms of the sale.
Now if your wondering why the Pistons have yet to play at Ford Field? Look no further than the three owners of these franchises since Ford Field was built.
First the pistons, Bill Davidson[[ now deceased but the Jewish businessman was owner until last year), Karen Davidson[[assumed control and possession of team after Bill's death) have been the only two owners. William Clay Ford[[age 86) has been the Lions owner for way too long as we all know. W.C.F. is the youngest grandchild of Henry Ford[[accused of Antisemitism) the well known auto pioneer, Draw your own conclussions. Maybe when we get a new owner devoted to moving the team back downtown regardless of what it takes
Actually, I think it's a shame that this wasn't built, or that at least the Joe wasn't built like this [[it's hard to imagine ALL of the sports being played there).
First, this arena is better integrated into the city, and you can imagine Fort Street becoming a popular sports bar and restaurant area. You can walk from the arena to the businesses, and in between there's some plaza space which could be used for pre and post game public celebration. As the Joe was built, you can't walk to anything, and there's not really any good gathering spot outside.
Right now the site of the arena is occupied by Riverfront Towers which were a token project by Taubman, and something was going to get built one way or the other. Wayne County Community College also occupies part of the site [[the former platform overpass for the demolished train station). WCC would have just picked a different site, or maybe even the same one. Then there's some parking lots, some empty lots, and parking garages. So there was no loss.
This would have opened up space behind Cobo for expansions. At the time of this proposal, the 80s expansion hadn't happened yet, which required demolishing the blocks north of Larned, and this would have been prevented.
I'm curious if this proposal could have worked. I do wish they have built Joe Louis at a different location and perhaps the location that proposed domed stadium would have been a better choice because the arena would had a direct access road [[Fort) to reach it. JLA was built on an island which made it very unattractive. I did realize something today. Metro Detroit has had a love affair with domed stadium for as long as I have been born.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
Had JLA been built where the proposed stadium would have been then there would have been no question that the land currently occupied by JLA would have been utilized by Cobo.
Where's the parking lot?
Two stadiums have hosted three major league teams at the same time. The first was the Kingdome in Seattle [[Seahawks, Mariners, and Supersonics). The second was the Metrodome in Minneapolis [[Vikings, Twins, and Timberwolves). Total coincidence, but these two stadiums probably had the two most serious roof failures of all the domed stadiums.
Thank goodness this was never built and the Tigers stayed on the corner 25 more years. If this dome had been built, both the Tigers and Lions would have been regretting it 20 years later. The Silverdome may have been in Pontiac, but at least it was a proper football stadium, it was actually an underrated NFL venue. The Pistons would have never moved in to a building like the proposed dome. In 1972 the NBA was an afterthought; Cobo Arena was plenty big at the time for the "crowds" the Pistons were attracting.
http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com
See this is why I was asking what was the opinion of the day in regards to this stadium being built. In 1972, the Pistons was still owned by Fred Zollner and they had been in the arena for 11 years at that point. There would be no need to move to said domed stadium. The Red Wings was ready to leave Olympia but there no push to build an new arena since Cobo Arena was built in 1950 and moving them to the domed stadium would have never worked. As for the Tigers, no one was ready to see them move from Michigan and Trumbull so I can see why the stadium died.Quote:
Originally Posted by schulzte
A little more about the 70's stadium situation in Detroit.
This domed stadium proposal was likely a response to the City of Pontiac's proposed stadium in 1968 for both the Lions and Tigers. The City of Detroit proposed this stadium to keep the Tigers and Lions downtown, placed the proposal on the ballot for a bond sale, and it failed. Most owners would have packed up and left, but Mr. Fetzer said that the Tigers belonged to the inner city of Detroit, and that he wouldn't move them to Pontiac. So the Lions moved to the Silverdome and the Tigers stayed at the corner, but that Silverdome location was originally meant for a multipurpose stadium. Mr. Fetzer then sold Tiger Stadium to the city of Detroit for $1 in 1977, and the city performed a multi-million dollar renovation of the stadium. The city installed new seats, lights, a new scoreboard, and other improvements.
Pontiac later pushed very hard to build a new arena for the Red Wings, and they were very close to moving there. Then the city struck a last-minute sweetheart deal to build Joe Louis Arena, charged virtually no rent, and gave the Red Wings management control of Cobo Arena as well. I've always wondered if that sweetheart deal with the Red Wings had anything to do with the Pistons moving in 1978, because it never made sense to me why they decided to moved to the Silverdome rather than Joe Louis Arena. I also wonder if the pressure to get Joe Louis Arena designed quickly and built to keep the Wings from moving led to some of the design deficiencies, like the lack of an original Press Box and poor street access.
http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com
Thanks for the info. It amazes me that the city of Pontiac was so aggressive to develop an identify by acquiring Detroit's sport franchises. I wish I had a time machine to bring the leaders of Pontiac/Oakland County circa 1968 to present time 2011 to see the fruits of their hard labor.Quote:
Originally Posted by schulzte
As for moving the franchises, there was only one reason why they wanted the franchises in the suburbs: Whites no longer wanted to travel to Detroit to watch their favorite team. Fetzer might had a change of heart but he heard the whispers that Whites would no longer travel to Detroit to watch the Tigers [[not true, of course) and it would be better to have the team in the burbs.
Bruce Norris heard the same whispers. Whites no longer felt safe on Grand River and McGraw and the push to move the Wings to Pontiac began. Had Coleman Young not given Norris JLA and Cobo Arena, the Wings too would have been in Pontiac playing in front of suburbanites no longer having to drive to Detroit.
What about the Pistons? There was no question that Bill Davidson heard the talk. Whites were the season-ticket holders and they did not want to come to Detroit to watch the sorry-ass Pistons. In fact, they didn't want to watch their sorry-asses period. The Pistons sucked and they sucked pre-Magic and Bird. I can imagine that Coleman Young didn't work very hard to keep them in Cobo. Had the move were to occurred in the Magic-Bird-Jordan period in the mid-80's, Detroit would have fought tooth and nail to keep them.
Joe Louis Arena broke ground in 1977 which tells me that the Pistons had already given notice that they were leaving Detroit for Pontiac. The sweetheart deal that Norris got was for him because the Pistons had already announced that they were leaving and Young didn't want a third franchise fleeing Detroit. Funny that the city of Pontiac was willing to build a new arena for the Red Wings yet they had no problem sticking the Pistons in the cavernous Silverdome and keeping them there and there was never any talk about building an arena for them. Go figure.
thats what I meant. I knew I was spelling it wrong, but figured no one would know he difference! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Originally it was flat-topped and was for the Olympics bid.
If you flip one page you'll end up with this.
In retrospect Philip Bess could be seen as a visionairy. He in effect more or less invented the retro-ballpark concept, although I think giving him sole credit would be too much. I expect other architect also having the same ideas back in those days.Quote:
In 1987, the White Sox were ready to replace their ancient home, Comiskey Park. As a protest to the unimaginative plans floated by the ballclub, Chicago architect Philip Bess took it upon himself to conceive an alternative. Armour Field, a scaled-down stadium in the fashion of Wrigley Field and Fenway Park, was designed "to illustrate that a compact-footprint neighborhood ballpark could provide fan comforts and generate industry standard revenues."
I don't think anybody really cared where the Pistons went at the time. The NBA had far less interest than the NHL, and they certainly weren't worth a municipality building a new arena. The last season at Cobo, the Pistons averaged 5,448 a game. You're not building a new arena for that. The Pistons didn't exactly take off immediately after moving to Pontiac either. The year the Pistons moved to the Silverdome, they averaged 9,510 a game. Still not great, but quite an improvement. Attendance dwindled again the next two years back to that 6-8,000 level. The Pistons didn't exceed 10,000 a game in attendance until 1982-83, but by their last season at the Silverdome they averaged 26,012 per game. Cobo's location wasn't an asset for the Pistons, but winning helps too! Joe Louis Arena used to be pretty empty too until the team started winning in the late '80's, but the downtown location never kept fans away.Quote:
Originally Posted by R8RBOB
http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com
This is quite an interesting thread. Like the OP, I'm too young to know about a proposed domed stadium in 1972. However, it seems to me like that was the latest craze in the 70s for sports stadiums. I'm glad it never got built. I think a domed stadium just doesn't capture how baseball is supposed to be played. I'm glad MLB got away from this indoor trend.
I remember in the early-mid 80s, they were practically giving away tickets. Big Boy restaurants, their biggest sponsor at the time, had stacks of 2 for 1 ticket coupons in all their restaurants sitting on the cash register counters. My brother & I saw many a Pistons Silverdome game by purchasing one 2nd deck ticket for $9 with those coupons. It ended up costing us only $4.50 each for our seats. By the 2nd qtr we moved down to empty seats in the 1st deck. That was pretty cheap entertainment.Quote:
Originally Posted by schulzte
IQuote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Incorrect Nerd. The fault along 8 Mile IS seismic. Just not in the geologic sense.
I departed SF in 2000. Their vision was just coming together with the new trolley lines, stadium and gardens at the foot of Market. Amazing to watch how a city can transform itself. Even one as beautiful and dynamic as SF.Quote:
Originally Posted by R8RBOB
The last [[and probably the only) Pistons game I attended was at the Silverdome. No comment on the Silverdome's ''underatedness', but it was a terrible place to see a sporting event. I also attended a Cherry Bowl game there. Sitting in the upper deck was like riding in a hot air balloon.
Would have went good with the proposed Ren Cen plan with all the cylinders around the base.
We are in the same boat. I grew up in the 70's knowing only Tiger Stadium. I wasn't old enough to understand that the owner wanted to leave the Corner. Having both the Tigers and Lions playing in a domed stadium on the riverfront would have been an awful idea. For the record, I have always hated domed stadiums. Baseball and football are meant to be played outside and on grass. Now I can understand a place like Houston needing a dome because their weather in the summer is unbearable but they started the trend to build domed stadiums.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
Funny thing about Ford Field is that the Lions wanted to return to their roots and play outdoors but Archer seeing that Ford Field could used all year round pushed have the roof included.
Yes, the Pistons of the 70's in particular the late 70's were god awful. I remember back in the day, the Pistons had this ridiculous jingle as their intro on Channel 50 and you just knew that it was another Pistons lost when you heard that damn jingle.Quote:
Originally Posted by schulzte
Based on the numbers you posted, I can see why the Detroit didn't go out of their way to keep the Pistons in town though I believe that Bill Davidson wanted out of Detroit. [[more on that in a sec) The Pistons were always the step-child in Detroit sports. They were the last to arrive in Detroit and they were always mediocre so watching them go to Pontiac didn't faze Detroit at that time. They sucked and that was that.
I do believe that having Ford Field include a roof was a wise decision. The football season is a very fickle time around here weather wise. Ever been to Soldier Field during a snowy football game with the wind in your face... yuck!
No, I haven't had the misfortune of being in a snowy football game but I have been in rainy football games in Oakland. Will that do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Since Detroit was already getting the open-air Comerica Park, Archer made the right decision to put a roof on Ford Field. Besides, that decision alone put the final nail in the Silverdome's coffin.
Found it! http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...Riverfront.pdf
Check out that version of the Riverfront Stadium!
That looks like a version of what came to be Cobo Arena nine years later.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner