Anyone notice? It's feeling pretty old around here...

I don't know if it's all the talk of young people leaving the state, but it seems like the crowd around here in Metro Detroit just keeps getting older and older. I made a trip out to the 'burbs today and it seemed like I was the only adult under 30. Sure, there were a few families with kids here and there, but the vast majority of people I came across were 65 and older. I'm not just talking about the people in the stores, but many of the workers as well, people out on the roads, etc.

Anyways, it got me thinking... how are the remaining young folks going to support the elderly when they can longer afford the cost of supporting themselves? There are a few parts of the Metro that are holdouts for the youthful, but mostly a lot of old people. The lack of young people makes me worry about planting roots and raising a family here.

It's called Soylent Green. ;)

Brush Start I'm with you 100 percent. I'm tossed between staying and buying a house or moving out west. I have friends here but there is a lack of young people and a huge lack of things to do, I'm in my late twenties.

What time were you about? Maybe they were still sleeping. Many of the under 30's I know end their Sat evening around 5-7 AM Sunday.

I would recommend the old-fashioned Detroit strategy of starting up some chaotic, unusual event that happens once a year, or once a month or something. Back when I was in my teens, we'd put on our own hardcore punk shows. You certainly can't wait for the oldsters to do it for you. For the most part, I don't think they understand why young people wouldn't want to buy a house in Commerce at 19 and start pumping out brats. And then there's the antipathy to cities [["Why them young'uns wanna go down there?") and the idea that large institutional employers are our only hope, and that's all ya need to bring in them young folks is jee-obs, jee-obs, jee-obs. Sigh ... I'm in my early 40s and I feel ya, Brush. Come on down to Hamtramck and let's get stinko.

In 30 years some 30 year old will be saying the same thing about you.....

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I would recommend the old-fashioned Detroit strategy of starting up some chaotic, unusual event that happens once a year, or once a month or something. Back when I was in my teens, we'd put on our own hardcore punk shows.

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That ^ was way back before the internetz when you could smoke in bars and stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's called Soylent Green. ;)

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More like Logan's Run.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I would recommend the old-fashioned Detroit strategy of starting up some chaotic, unusual event that happens once a year, or once a month or something. Back when I was in my teens, we'd put on our own hardcore punk shows. You certainly can't wait for the oldsters to do it for you. For the most part, I don't think they understand why young people wouldn't want to buy a house in Commerce at 19 and start pumping out brats. And then there's the antipathy to cities [["Why them young'uns wanna go down there?") and the idea that large institutional employers are our only hope, and that's all ya need to bring in them young folks is jee-obs, jee-obs, jee-obs. Sigh ... I'm in my early 40s and I feel ya, Brush. Come on down to Hamtramck and let's get stinko.

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Haha. I'm with you, maybe next weekend I'll do Hamtramck. It's one of those youthful "holdouts" I was talking about above.
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To clarify my OP, I'm not trying to slight the older folks whatsoever. I just think this is a serious concern. Michigan may not be as bad off as say Florida, but this state/region is going to have major problems if it doesn't replenish its population. A week ago it was reported that 2010 had the lowest number of babies born in Michigan since before WWII. While it is true that people are having less kids, there are simply fewer young people in Michigan to have them. It worries me because there are all types consequences for a state that has its young, taxpaying workforce evaporate.

Like chitaku said, I have many friends who have headed West. Some to Portland and Seattle. Many more to Chicago or other large cities. As far as I know, not many plan on returning. Snyder spoke about it during his campaign, but he and rest of the local leaders really need to consider what the future of Michigan and Metro Detroit will be like if the young people have all left.

To Lowell, I was out and about in Livonia around 2:30-5:00pm. Though, this is hardly the first time I've made this observation. It just seems like it's getting worse.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

I don't know if it's all the talk of young people leaving the state, but it seems like the crowd around here in Metro Detroit just keeps getting older and older. I made a trip out to the 'burbs today and it seemed like I was the only adult under 30. Sure, there were a few families with kids here and there, but the vast majority of people I came across were like 65 plus. I'm not just talking about the people in the stores, but many of the workers as well, people out on the roads, etc.

Anyways, it got me thinking... how the hell are the handful of young folks left around here going to float all these geriatrics when they can longer support themselves? There are a few parts of the Metro that are holdouts for the youthful, but mostly, there's just A TON of old people. There really needs to be something done about this before it really gets out of hand. I gotta tell ya, it makes me worry about planting roots and raising a family here.

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The older you get the faster the time flies BrushStart....you'll be there before you know it and maybe then you'll have learned how to be a bit more tactful and compassionate. I'd really hate to be your dad or grandfather because I see a total lack of respect for the older crowd from you.

[[As I was typing my response to you Brush, you added your post above. Do you think that the geriatric crowd doesn't pay taxes?)

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Originally Posted by Buy American

The older you get the faster the time flies BrushStart....you'll be there before you know it and maybe then you'll have learned how to be a bit more tactful and compassionate. I'd really hate to be your dad or grandfather because I see a total lack of respect for the older crowd from you.

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What are you talking about? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, and I'm grown man, I don't need a lecture. Perhaps you should put yourself in my shoes and consider the financial consequences for someone who will be trying to raise a family in a state where the vast majority of its population is senior citizens and require substantial government services.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

Haha. I'm with you, maybe next weekend I'll do Hamtramck. It's one of those youthful "holdouts" I was talking about above.
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To clarify my OP, I'm not trying to slight the older folks whatsoever. I just think this is a serious concern. Michigan may not be as bad off as say Florida, but this state/region is going to have major problems if it doesn't replenish its population. A week ago it was reported that 2010 had the lowest number of babies born in Michigan since before WWII. While it is true that people are having less kids, there are simply fewer young people in Michigan to have them. It worries me because there are all types consequences for a state that has its young, taxpaying workforce evaporate.

Like chitaku said, I have many friends who have headed West. Some to Portland and Seattle. Many more to Chicago or other large cities. As far as I know, not many plan on returning. Snyder spoke about it during his campaign, but he and rest of the local leaders really need to consider what the future of Michigan and Metro Detroit will be like if the young people have all left.

To Lowell, I was out and about in Livonia around 2:30-5:00pm. Though, this is hardly the first time I've made this observation. It just seems like it's getting worse.

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2:30-5:00 pm isn't really a hot time to go out... try 10:00pm or later...

I am 24 and I am usually busy till 5:00pm, not out and about.

BrushStart.... you're worried about Michigan?? What about such retiree hot spots such as Florida or Arizona? I wouldn't lose any sleep over who's taking care of the old folks... we ALL are...

As for your noticing the ages of people... I go to 7-Eleven in St. Clair Shores at 11PM on occasion... all the youngin's are out and about at that time and later... you've likely encountered the same scenario as not seeing any old people out and about after 10PM [[they're likely asleep by then...).

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

What are you talking about? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, and I'm grown man, I don't need a lecture. Perhaps you should put yourself in my shoes and consider the financial consequences for someone who will be trying to raise a family in a state where the vast majority of its population is senior citizens and require substantial government services.

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The only government service I'm getting is a social security check every month after having worked for 40 years.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

What are you talking about? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, and I'm grown man, I don't need a lecture. Perhaps you should put yourself in my shoes and consider the financial consequences for someone who will be trying to raise a family in a state where the vast majority of its population is senior citizens and require substantial government services.

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No lecture intended. I've been in your shoes, raised a family in Detroit and know what the costs are. It's a tough world.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

BrushStart.... you're worried about Michigan?? What about such retiree hot spots such as Florida or Arizona? I wouldn't lose any sleep over who's taking care of the old folks... we ALL are...

As for your noticing the ages of people... I go to 7-Eleven in St. Clair Shores at 11PM on occasion... all the youngin's are out and about at that time and later... you've likely encountered the same scenario as not seeing any old people out and about after 10PM [[they're likely asleep by then...).

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Perhaps you are right about the time I was out, especially because it was a Sunday. That said, people should be careful about trivializing this issue. Take a look at Italy or other European countries that have seen their younger populations drop off. It has really caused a lot of problems. For a state like Michigan, it's going to result in lower home values, higher taxes, lousier services, less new enterprises, fewer employers coming to the region, and less opportunities for my kids. You have to ask yourself [[and my fiance raises this question all the time): Is this where we want to plant our roots? I love Detroit, but there is a lot more to life than love for a city.

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Originally Posted by EastsideQT

The only government service I'm getting is a social security check every month after having worked for 40 years.

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I'm not saying older folks and retirees don't deserve everything to which they are entitled. Michigan's problem is not its older folks, it's Michigan's lack of younger folks. The state isn't retaining or attracting fresh blood. That's going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on the younger folks who stay.

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Originally Posted by Buy American

No lecture intended. I've been in your shoes, raised a family in Detroit and know what the costs are. It's a tough world.

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Sorry, I didn't intend to come off as disrespectful. If you read my posts immediately above, I try and make clear that older folks are not a "problem", it is simply the lack of younger folks here. I'm saying our leaders need to address the issue before the quality of life diminishes for all of us. Otherwise, the situation is going to get worse.

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a huge lack of things to do,

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What do you want to do here that you can't do? Seems like we have a ton of bars, restaurants, theaters, live music venues, museums, sports venues etc. here. Plus parks and bodies of water for the outdoorsy people.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

Sorry, I didn't intend to come off as disrespectful. If you read my posts immediately above, I try and make clear that older folks are not a "problem", it is simply the lack of younger folks here. I'm saying our leaders need to address the issue before the quality of life diminishes for all of us. Otherwise, the situation is going to get worse.

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Thank you.

Michigan is known for the automobiles they've built over the years. The Big 3 were once the most important industry here. A man would begin working at one of the plants, he'd marry, have kids, his sons would work at the plants. That is no longer the case in Michigan. As you can see by my username, I am all for purchasing one of the Big 3 and for that I have received many criticisms and disrespectful remarks from many on this forum. However, I think it's very obvious what Michigan is turning into because of some very large plants shutting their doors, a barren wasteland with nothing on the horizon to bring it back. There are no incentives for young people to stay any longer. Between the lack of good automotive jobs and other businesses closing their doors due to the trickle down effect, Michigan is in the toilet. As far as Detroit goes, with the huge tax base [[auto industry) leaving; because of the corrupt politicians that have been in office [[some still are), it's in terrible shape.

The entire nation and developed world is aging. And on balance, it's pretty cheap to be a young person in Detroit... when I wanted excitement beyond what the city could provide, I could jet off to visit friends and hang out without worrying about $2000+ rent. Best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

I'm not saying older folks and retirees don't deserve everything to which they are entitled. Michigan's problem is not its older folks, it's Michigan's lack of younger folks. The state isn't retaining or attracting fresh blood. That's going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on the younger folks who stay.

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Just so we know what kind of numbers we are talking about according to the last census here are the numbers for Michigan residents:

Persons age 20-54: 4,972,322
Persons age 55-85 and over: 2,082,057

I think you need to re-think your theory. I think that's more than a "handful" of young folks.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

I don't know if it's all the talk of young people leaving the state, but it seems like the crowd around here in Metro Detroit just keeps getting older and older. I made a trip out to the 'burbs today and it seemed like I was the only adult under 30. Sure, there were a few families with kids here and there, but the vast majority of people I came across were like 65 plus. I'm not just talking about the people in the stores, but many of the workers as well, people out on the roads, etc.

Anyways, it got me thinking... how the hell are the handful of young folks left around here going to float all these geriatrics when they can longer support themselves? There are a few parts of the Metro that are holdouts for the youthful, but mostly, there's just A TON of old people. There really needs to be something done about this before it really gets out of hand. I gotta tell ya, it makes me worry about planting roots and raising a family here.

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I would advise you to high tail in on out of state and take your family with you. You have no respect for older people and the wisdom that comes with that age. You will pass on to your children the same disrespect.

You obviously think you have all of the answers to a successful life. The truth is, that you & others like you will become the reason for the continuing delcine of the city. Detroit does not need you, or does any other area in the county. Maybe a third world country would be a better fit for you.

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Originally Posted by EastsideQT

Just so we know what kind of numbers we are talking about according to the last census here are the numbers for Michigan residents:

Persons age 20-54: 4,972,322
Persons age 55-85 and over: 2,082,057

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That's interesting..

Well, I just sort of surprised myself. As it turns out, Michigan ranks 30/50 for states with the oldest population. As of 2003, only 12.3% of Michigan's population was over 65. Florida ranked #1 with 17.6% of its population older than 65. The youngest state is Alaska, with a minuscule 5.7% of its population over 65. So, maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of this than it truly is. I will say that in the Metro area, it seems like the population is comparatively older than ever. It could be that pockets of younger folks have become more concentrated. All numbers aside, I am still concerned, but perhaps the issue of babyboomers reaching retirement age is more widespread than I thought and not simply limited to states like Michigan. Even Oregon is no exception, as 12.8 of its population is older than 65.

Here's the link: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2003/Whi...theOldest.aspx

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Originally Posted by scbaker

I would advise you to high tail in on out of state and take your family with you. You have no respect for older people and the wisdom that comes with that age. You will pass on to your children the same disrespect.

You obviously think you have all of the answers to a successful life. The truth is, that you & others like you will become the reason for the continuing delcine of the city. Detroit does not need you, or does any other area in the county. Maybe a third world country would be a better fit for you.

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Wow. I'm not sure where you got the impression that I have no respect for older people, or that I don't value their wisdom. I assure you that all the older people who know me would take great offense to what you said of me of. I've done a lot for older family members, and friends, and complete strangers. Far more than almost anyone I know. It's too bad that you are the kind of person who would judge me without knowing anything about me.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

That's interesting..

Well, I just sort of surprised myself. As it turns out, Michigan ranks 30/50 for states with the oldest population. As of 2003, only 12.3% of Michigan's population was over 65. Florida ranked #1 with 17.6% of its population older than 65. The youngest state is Alaska, with a minuscule 5.7% of its population over 65. So, maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of this than it truly is. I will say that in the Metro area, it seems like the population is comparatively older than ever. It could be that pockets of younger folks have become more concentrated. All numbers aside, I am still concerned, but perhaps the issue of babyboomers reaching retirement age is more widespread than I thought and not simply limited to states like Michigan. Even Oregon is no exception, as 12.8 of its population is older than 65.

Here's the link: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2003/Whi...theOldest.aspx

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Maybe next time you should check the statistics before you make statements that are not based on fact.

I suggest going out at a time and place where young people actually like to hang out, regardless of statistics. Remember metro Detroit is very spread out, there are a lot of places to go. Even check out some websites like after5detroit.com or 313rd.com to see whats going on.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

That's interesting..

Well, I just sort of surprised myself. As it turns out, Michigan ranks 30/50 for states with the oldest population. As of 2003, only 12.3% of Michigan's population was over 65. Florida ranked #1 with 17.6% of its population older than 65. The youngest state is Alaska, with a minuscule 5.7% of its population over 65. So, maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of this than it truly is. I will say that in the Metro area, it seems like the population is comparatively older than ever. It could be that pockets of younger folks have become more concentrated. All numbers aside, I am still concerned, but perhaps the issue of babyboomers reaching retirement age is more widespread than I thought and not simply limited to states like Michigan. Even Oregon is no exception, as 12.8 of its population is older than 65.

Here's the link: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2003/Whi...theOldest.aspx

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Since you mentioned Detroit here are the statistics which again is contrary to what you believe.

Age 25-44: 226.241
Age 45-64: 186,688
Age 65 & over: 84,434

I'd say this all depends where you go. Did you go to the mall, were you at a restaurant? 3 years ago when I last lived in Michigan I went to Great Lakes Crossings and I think there were plenty of people my age [[24 at the time).

Interestingly, when I moved out here to Chicago, all I seem to see is people my age. I heard something that in my friend's census tract 85% of the residents were between 25-35 years old. When I went out to eat with my girlfriend yesterday, there wasn't a single person over 40 in a busy downtown restaurant.

It's all a matter of where people choose to go or feel they belong when they get older. Technically age diversity is a good thing since it builds much more stable neighborhoods. A very young neighborhood like I described above could have a higher turnover rate of residents, and is obviously more likely to remain rental.

As for the disrespect, I think the question is valid, but the delivery was poor. The way it was put across was disrespectful. "float all these geriatrics when they can longer support themselves.." ....yeah not so nice. I'd feel awful if I said that in front of my parents. But the question you bring up is what everyone young and old asks when they are looking for a new place. "Where are people that are my age?" You want to have neighbors you can be social with.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I'd say this all depends where you go. Did you go to the mall, were you at a restaurant? 3 years ago when I last lived in Michigan I went to Great Lakes Crossings and I think there were plenty of people my age [[24 at the time).

Interestingly, when I moved out here to Chicago, all I seem to see is people my age. I heard something that in my friend's census tract 85% of the residents were between 25-35 years old. When I went out to eat with my girlfriend yesterday, there wasn't a single person over 40 in a busy downtown restaurant.

It's all a matter of where people choose to go or feel they belong when they get older. Technically age diversity is a good thing since it builds much more stable neighborhoods. A very young neighborhood like I described above could have a higher turnover rate of residents, and is obviously more likely to remain rental.

As for the disrespect, I think the question is valid, but the delivery was poor. The way it was put across was disrespectful. "float all these geriatrics when they can longer support themselves.." ....yeah not so nice. I'd feel awful if I said that in front of my parents. But the question you bring up is what everyone young and old asks when they are looking for a new place. "Where are people that are my age?" You want to have neighbors you can be social with.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by EastsideQT

Since you mentioned Detroit here are the statistics which again is contrary to what you believe.

Age 25-44: 226.241
Age 45-64: 186,688
Age 65 & over: 84,434

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Yeah, I definitely jumped the gun on thinking Michigan ranked near the top of the list. There has been a lot of attention drawn to Michigan's brain drain recently in the media. Grand Rapids recently ranked #1 on Newsweek's "Dying Cities" list because of it's declining young population. Flint was ranked #2, and Detroit was #4. It's hard not look at reports like that, then have those reports reinforced by visual observation and think that everything is okay. As I said before, I do not mean any of this to be derogatory to the aged and the wise. I am more concerned about the stability of the state from a population standpoint. When you have friends in the 20-30 range fleeing for the exits, you start to question if you shouldn't be too. I'm pretty confident I'm not the only person who is thinking about this topic. Even Governor Snyder made a point to address the issue in his State of the State speech.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I'd say this all depends where you go. Did you go to the mall, were you at a restaurant? 3 years ago when I last lived in Michigan I went to Great Lakes Crossings and I think there were plenty of people my age [[24 at the time).

Interestingly, when I moved out here to Chicago, all I seem to see is people my age. I heard something that in my friend's census tract 85% of the residents were between 25-35 years old. When I went out to eat with my girlfriend yesterday, there wasn't a single person over 40 in a busy downtown restaurant.

It's all a matter of where people choose to go or feel they belong when they get older. Technically age diversity is a good thing since it builds much more stable neighborhoods. A very young neighborhood like I described above could have a higher turnover rate of residents, and is obviously more likely to remain rental.

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I went out to eat at a Coney Island and was at the Meijer's off Middlebelt. Obviously, these places are not really young people hangouts at the time of day I was there, but I definitely felt isolated from people in my age range. For discussion's sake, I wasn't even the one who first noted this while we were out, my fiance was. Basically, she said "Why is everyone in here so old?" That's what initially got me thinking. I came home and started this thread. So far, it's been interesting.

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As for the disrespect, I think the question is valid, but the delivery was poor. The way it was put across was disrespectful. "float all these geriatrics when they can longer support themselves.." ....yeah not so nice. I'd feel awful if I said that in front of my parents. But the question you bring up is what everyone young and old asks when they are looking for a new place. "Where are people that are my age?" You want to have neighbors you can be social with.

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Dually noted and edited. I really was not trying to be callous, just poor delivery, as you stated.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

I went out to eat at a Coney Island and was at the Meijer's off Middlebelt. Obviously, these places are not really young people hangouts at the time of day I was there, but I definitely felt isolated from people in my age range. For discussion's sake, I wasn't even the one who first noted this while we were out, my fiance was. Basically, she said "Why is everyone in here so old?" That's what initially got me thinking. I came home and started this thread. So far, it's been interesting.

Dually noted and edited. I really was not trying to be callous, just poor delivery, as you stated.

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Maybe you weren't trying to be callous. However, sensitivity is definitely not one of your strong points.

BrushStart, There's also articles you can find out there that more specifically look at inbound and outbound numbers of young educated graduates. While it may look at Michigan's losses of longtime residents, the numbers don't always take into account graduates moving to Michigan from other states. You may in the end find that Michigan's brain drain losses aren't all that alarming. Places that are exceptions would be alpha city states such as California, New York, and Illinois with high inbound rate of educated grads, but a reshuffling of young residents from rural towns to the state's principle urban center.

As much people as I know left the state for better opportunities, I also know international and out of state residents that came to school in Michigan and ended up staying. You'll find people from California, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania staffing positions in Detroit's CDCs, planning organizations and the like.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

BrushStart, There's also articles you can find out there that more specifically look at inbound and outbound numbers of young educated graduates. While it may look at Michigan's losses of longtime residents, the numbers don't always take into account graduates moving to Michigan from other states. You may in the end find that Michigan's brain drain losses aren't all that alarming. Places that are exceptions would be alpha city states such as California, New York, and Illinois with high inbound rate of educated grads, but a reshuffling of young residents from rural towns to the state's principle urban center.

As much people as I know left the state for better opportunities, I also know international and out of state residents that came to school in Michigan and ended up staying. You'll find people from California, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania staffing positions in Detroit's CDCs, planning organizations and the like.

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+1 to this completely. Statistics can be manipulated in any manner, you have to read between the lines.

In addition to this I too know of people that have moved here for graduate school [[some of my med school classmates) who plan on staying and they are also from out of state.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

I went out to eat at a Coney Island and was at the Meijer's off Middlebelt. Obviously, these places are not really young people hangouts at the time of day I was there, but I definitely felt isolated from people in my age range. For discussion's sake, I wasn't even the one who first noted this while we were out, my fiance was. Basically, she said "Why is everyone in here so old?" That's what initially got me thinking. I came home and started this thread. So far, it's been interesting.

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If you go to Meijers around 9 or 10 you may notice more people your age. Even back when I was in Ann Arbor I'd see mostly families at Meijers middle of the day, but nighttime it was always students.

In my earlier post, I also mentioned some restaurants attract a younger demographic. Some of the more hip and trendy type of places will attract a younger crowd by the type of atmosphere they create.
Coney Island attracts everyone, so you'll find people of all ages there. Although the Detroit Coney Island they opened up here in Chicago has plenty of young people lol

Ya know why the diners have Early Bird Specials til 6 pm? The elders are out prospecting then, looking for their evening meal at a good price. So, you hit prime shopping and prospecting time at a magnet location. So, go out there after 6 next time and catch the young families scrambling to get their weekend shopping out of the way at the last minute before going home to get ready for the week.

Somehow your post reminded me of the time we took my sister and her husband out to eat near Northland. They had been living in Anchorage for a good ten years. We were eating our meal and not thinking anything about demographics, which looked normal to us, of course. Mike looked around during the meal, leaned in close and said, "I had heard Detroit had a lot of black people...." I looked around and realized everyone else in the place was black, and then there were these two Indians and two whites. "Business as usual," I said. If you look for difference, you will see it. You see age, he saw race. What if you just saw people? What difference does it really make?

There are studies going on nowadays, in universities and think tank, how to handle the aging of the baby boom population. They have grown up dominating every decade by sheer numbers. Now they are aging, so it looks like there are a lot of them. Guess what? There ARE a lot of them. And it isn't because everybody else is leaving.

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Originally Posted by EastsideQT

Maybe you weren't trying to be callous. However, sensitivity is definitely not one of your strong points.

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That's a fair point, and no, it's not. My fiance tells me that just about every day. Somehow, it just never sinks in. :confused:

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Originally Posted by gazhekwe

Ya know why the diners have Early Bird Specials til 6 pm? The elders are out prospecting then, looking for their evening meal at a good price. So, you hit prime shopping and prospecting time at a magnet location. So, go out there after 6 next time and catch the young families scrambling to get their weekend shopping out of the way at the last minute before going home to get ready for the week.

Somehow your post reminded me of the time we took my sister and her husband out to eat near Northland. They had been living in Anchorage for a good ten years. We were eating our meal and not thinking anything about demographics, which looked normal to us, of course. Mike looked around during the meal, leaned in close and said, "I had heard Detroit had a lot of black people...." I looked around and realized everyone else in the place was black, and then there were these two Indians and two whites. "Business as usual," I said. If you look for difference, you will see it. You see age, he saw race. What if you just saw people? What difference does it really make?

There are studies going on nowadays, in universities and think tank, how to handle the aging of the baby boom population. They have grown up dominating every decade by sheer numbers. Now they are aging, so it looks like there are a lot of them. Guess what? There ARE a lot of them. And it isn't because everybody else is leaving.

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All very true. I am also used to being downtown 98% of the time, so I really don't experience the suburbs as much as when I lived there. I suppose I have become somewhat accustomed to seeing people in my age range, out at restaurants, shopping, at the bar, at concerts, etc. All of the media reporting definitely has an effect though, because like you said, you end up looking for what you think is true. I know people in my age range have a certain anxiety about being "left behind" in Michigan. That one day, we're going to be the only ones left. We're told that all the young and the educated are fleeing. While I'm smart enough to know statistics can be manipulated, it's hard to ignore that many people yelling fire in the theater. My limited understanding of age demographics is that when a society loses its young population to support its older population, there can be serious problems. On a national level is one thing, but it should be clear by now that my original concern was that young people are leaving Michigan disproportionately to other states, thus causing a strain once the older generation leaves the workforce and requires assistance. Based on the stats, Michigan is not even ranked in the top half of states with the highest aged population. In that sense, reality is starkly different than what is being reported, and what I thought was the case.

I think some of you are being way too hard on brushstart and putting words in his mouth.

I myself am 25 years old and just graduated from a local university and I agree with his original assertion. The point here [[which should be obvious) is that the older population is a valuable and beloved part of our region but that doesn't negate the fact that an area has to have some younger people to grow and thrive.

At least from anecdotal evidence I can tell you that young people are fleeing michigan. Regardless of how valuable the older population of the state is, how can you see a bright future where a growing number of people are finding the state to be a place that isn't attractive to stick around and have a family?. There are places where these people wind up like chicago, portland, austin, raleigh, etc. places that offer something to the younger crown besides standard suburbia.

I can tell you that it is only proximity to family and my love of the city of detroit that keeps me here. The biggest point I can make is that once you lose the 20 something crowd to elsewhere usa you are unlikely to get them back.

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Originally Posted by rencense

I think some of you are being way too hard on brushstart and putting words in his mouth.

I myself am 25 years old and just graduated from a local university and I agree with his original assertion. The point here [[which should be obvious) is that the older population is a valuable and beloved part of our region but that doesn't negate the fact that an area has to have some younger people to grow and thrive.

At least from anecdotal evidence I can tell you that young people are fleeing michigan. Regardless of how valuable the older population of the state is, how can you see a bright future where a growing number of people are finding the state to be a place that isn't attractive to stick around and have a family?. There are places where these people wind up like chicago, portland, austin, raleigh, etc. places that offer something to the younger crown besides standard suburbia.

I can tell you that it is only proximity to family and my love of the city of detroit that keeps me here. The biggest point I can make is that once you lose the 20 something crowd to elsewhere usa you are unlikely to get them back.

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Well said. I agree.

Well, I'm officially entering my mid-30s this year, and was once a DYes young whippersnapper, so I've got some perspective on this issue. Some of my friends who fled to those alpha cities in their 20s are really missing home now. Many are married and have kids, and the ONLY thing keeping them away from Michigan is jobs. People go where the jobs are.

Hip cities have a lot to do, but there's no breathing room. As a teacher and a writer, I need space to contemplate and dream. I love to kick around NYC and Chicago and London, but I knew when I was very young that I wouldn't be at home there. The cool thing is that I can rent a place in metro Detroit or even in the heart of the city for less than $1K. The money I would have spent on 1) rent and 2) travel expenses for visiting family if I'd moved to Seattle or San Fran or NYC has been spent on trips around the country and the world. When we were in our 20s, my buddies were shocked -- shocked! -- that I had my own little apartment for less than 700 bucks a month, and I wasn't in the projects. They all came to visit and fell in love with Midtown. Would they trade it for Hip City, USA? Nah. Did several return for multiple visits? Yep. :)

Your mileage may vary, of course. But one more thing... I've gotten some great friendships and colleagueships out of those "older folks" you're a little wary of. The neat thing about Detroit is that some events and organizations feature people of all ages who are passionate about the city and mega-involved. I haven't yet plunged in full speed ahead, but as my adjustment period at work ends and the winter will abate in a month or two, I'm really looking forward to settling in the city and getting back into some things.

My folks always told me that you can't search for happiness, happiness is within you... you take it wherever you go. I have some friends who find a place and love it. Others move from place to place, from city to city, and something is always wrong with wherever they land. Don't try so hard to be cool, try harder to be content. Life is short. :)

Brush, Coney what? Didn't you get the memo? We all hang out in Taco Bell now. You know... ever since the economy tanked and they started offering those $2 meal deals.

Livonia is a good place, there are a couple good Taco Bells there. Malls failed, Great Lakes Crossing turned into discount outlet of unkewl. We don't hang out in Meijer and Walmart, those spots are for the teenagers.... and yes, this is what we have for public space in M to the I.... MI Michigan, whoa is Michigan.

The club scene hasn't been so hot with the economy being down. The yougins have apparently been hit pretty hard.

PS: I don't think you are disrespectful. I am downright mad that we are being forced to pay for the boomer's greed and glut. Everything they have, they have because of the investments and sacrifices of the past generation. So what will we inherit? Debt? A poorly built mcmansion in former cornfields and woodlands? A wasted planet with nothing left to consume? Crumbling infrastructure? Fallen empires and governments? Corrupt systems? What will they be leaving us? I'm mad! I'm mad when I look in my daughter's eyes and have the strangest feeling that the days of my children will be harder than my days, thanks to government/Wall Street's subsidized greed and corruption. I'm mad..... sigh.

I don't buy into the whole "wanting to move back to Michigan" rhetoric. When people move elsewhere, they build new relationships. People keep their friends close, and possibly family if married and their spouse is from the area. I've heard so many people who have graduated and move all over say "well eventually I'll move back home" but that rarely happens. They get used to the new place where they live, begin to love it more than ever, build a huge network of friends and shed plenty of contact back home.

I suppose if you really hated where you moved and avoided the social scene, you have a good chance of moving back. But for most of the Michiganders I know in Chicago, our lifestyles and interests have changed quite a bit. Moving back to the way things were would seem foreign and possibly even difficult.

Michigan should try to retain graduates and attract graduates from other places as well. It should not try to focus on bringing people home.

It's alittle old [[04/09), but it touches on the points brought up about the exodus of 'younger' residents.

http://detnews.com/article/20090402/...#ixzz1CbpD0DMb

If the housing market were to pick up and they could sell their homes in Michigan, you would also see a further exodus of the older folks as well, particularly the ones with more than a Social Security check. Tennessee and Florida have no state income tax and a warmer climate. Michigan has an income tax that might be increased and, for those who have built a nest egg over anf above their retirement check, a state "intangibles tax".

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I don't buy into the whole "wanting to move back to Michigan" rhetoric. When people move elsewhere, they build new relationships. People keep their friends close, and possibly family if married and their spouse is from the area. I've heard so many people who have graduated and move all over say "well eventually I'll move back home" but that rarely happens. They get used to the new place where they live, begin to love it more than ever, build a huge network of friends and shed plenty of contact back home.

I suppose if you really hated where you moved and avoided the social scene, you have a good chance of moving back. But for most of the Michiganders I know in Chicago, our lifestyles and interests have changed quite a bit. Moving back to the way things were would seem foreign and possibly even difficult.

Michigan should try to retain graduates and attract graduates from other places as well. It should not try to focus on bringing people home.

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Funny you mention Michiganders in Chicago, I have a few friends that moved there and all the friends they made there were from Michigan too. Seems like Chicago is just Michigan #2, it is kind of say but some of my friends have moved back so it isn't as impossible as you think.

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...I'm spending how many hours driving?? Young people don't want to live in the sprawling wasteland that is SE MI, first of all.

Does anyone think a young creative, "hip" person wants to live in Novi? Then let's flip that - does a young person want to raise a family in the warzone Detroit? [[yes, young people do think about having families eventually) For some reason the aging boomers in this region never really got that. Why do we need a great, world class city when we have places like...Livonia! Canton! Sterling Heights! Of course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!" Not the same value system as the younger generation.

This is all on top of the fact that there are no jobs here.

My source: me. I'm mid-twenties. All my friends are leaving and the only young people in my neighborhood live with their parents.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

hOf course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!" Not the same value system as the younger generation.

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A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.

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A liberal is a conservative who's been fired.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...I'm spending how many hours driving?? Young people don't want to live in the sprawling wasteland that is SE MI, first of all.

Does anyone think a young creative, "hip" person wants to live in Novi? Then let's flip that - does a young person want to raise a family in the warzone Detroit? [[yes, young people do think about having families eventually) For some reason the aging boomers in this region never really got that. Why do we need a great, world class city when we have places like...Livonia! Canton! Sterling Heights! Of course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!" Not the same value system as the younger generation.

This is all on top of the fact that there are no jobs here.

My source: me. I'm mid-twenties. All my friends are leaving and the only young people in my neighborhood live with their parents.

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There's definitely a cause [[the lack of a desirable environment) and effect [[the loss of young people). Young people are a valuable commodity so most regions put a lot of effort into attracting them. They are the lifeblood of a thriving economy. Metro Detroit seems like it has kind of given up on competing for young people. Grandholm's only attempt was "Cool Cities" designations.

Think about living as a young person in Metro Detroit. If you don't live in the city, 90% of the restaurants are substantially the same chain franchises, i.e. Applebee's, TGI Fridays, Max & Ermas, Chili's, Bennigan's, ChiChi's, etc. That's not very inspiring. It's really easy to get bored with that mix. There are some bars, but they are so spread out that you are basically relegated to drinking and driving if you go out and have more than 2 beers. Nothing located in neighborhoods with the exception of some inner-ring burbs. Cultural institutions are few and far between. Entertainment venues are around but pretty limited and also involve a substantial amount of driving. There's really nowhere to exercise outside and feel comfortable. Walking or jogging down Ford Road is not desirable. Metro Parks are nice, but they do not provide easy 1-2 hour escapes, you basically have to make a day of it. Where are the places where young people congregate? There really aren't many good places, public or private. I think the mall is a defacto hangout for many people under 21. The saving grace for the suburbs are the little downtowns that some of the 'burbs built around- think Plymouth, Northville, Rochester, Birmingham, etc. If you take those little downtowns out of the picture, you have a vast landscape of large roads lined with strip mall-style shopping centers and chain restuarants. You are not going to attract many young people with that formula no matter how safe it is, or how good the schools may be. It's just uninspiring, quite ugly, and if I might say, somewhat depressing.

As you know, I'm 74 and 2k miles away from Detroit. All I want to say about this topic is......is......uh......what was the topic again??? Something about.....oh, nuts....ZZZZZzzzzzzzz.............

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...

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Talk about a busy day. Most people, regardless of their age wouldn't want to go to those three places in one day even if they were lined up next to each other like cordwood.

How this for better planning? They stop at one of the many museums downtown in the afternoon, see the game at night and go shopping some other day.

Two factors:

1. The baby boomers are reaching retirement age. Those on pensions live quite well in Michigan because it still has a lot going for it [[medical, travel, cultural, low cost of living).
2. Young go where the jobs are. Unfortunately the pickings have been slim around here for the last 10 years.

The following paper was done in 2007, and if done today would show fewer youngsters in the region.
http://library.semcog.org/InmagicGen...sition2035.pdf

These maps will provide the viewer with a geographic look at what is happening to our region in terms of its greying.
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...ned%20Maps.pdf

If these trends continue, the region will be in a world if hurt. Imagine how it will be trying to get the elderly who do not drive to the doctor or to the grocery with the current levels of funding for transportation.

I'm older, I'm on SS, I live in the City, I love the city. I don't stay out too late anymore cause watching all those young folks drink PBR just makes me gag.

"There's really nowhere to exercise outside and feel comfortable."

This thread is really getting ridiculous.

This area is fine, it's the lack of jobs that are causing people of all ages to leave.
It's like someone saying that can't sell their car because it needs a new paint job and overrlooking the fact that the car has a blown engine.

Oh, yes. It's all jobs, jobs, jobs. Except that research indicates that young people choose a city first then look for opportunities. In fact, I have met so many people from around the country who have moved to the place with the toughest competition for the fewest jobs: Detroit. What are they doing here? They see it as a fertile place to create things, open businesses, and, in the process, create some jobs.

Frankly, I am so sick and tired of the old-line thinking that all we need is to have JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS and then young people will FLOCK here. Sorry. That is the old days. You need to create good urban environments for people to move here. THEY are the innovators. THEY create jobs. THEY open small and mom-and-pop businesses. That whole 1950s line of thinking where you do anything to bring in big businesses to make lunchpail jobs is OVER. It's never coming back. But if we invest in creating a vibrant city [[as part of a region that works together), we have the environment that will attract young people.

You're correct DetroitNerd. People look at where they want to live first, then the opportunities. Which brings up the constant point about the suburbs needing strong, thriving and vibrant urban cities.

Outside of southeastern michigan, only Detroit has national and worldwide recognition. The best way to attract young people from outside the state is to attract them to Detroit first. Then as they become more familiar with Michigan, they'll branch out to other places. That's why Downtown Detroit is so essential. The first, and in some cases only, impression of the entire state for most out of state visitors is Downtown Detroit.

Downtown Detroit needs to make itself more attractive to businesses. Especially businesses that rely on the afterwork, late night and weekend crowd.

I'm interested in the breakdown of the ages of the commentators. It seems like the majority of the younger people are saying that the region isn't that attractive to the younger set and the older people are disagreeing. :D


I am a bit in the younger set [[29) and agree that the region isn't that attractive. I do find it amusing that my husband's job is the only thing keeping us here.

I don't see why Brush start has taken heat on this thread? He is just asking the questions a lot of younger people are asking living here. I have been contemplating buying a home in the city for a few months now but the same questions have popped up for me. I don't think he is dogging older people at all, any healthy area needs diversity in age to survive.

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Originally Posted by preserve

I'm older, I'm on SS, I live in the City, I love the city. I don't stay out too late anymore cause watching all those young folks drink PBR just makes me gag.

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Watching a person of any age drink PBR makes me gag.

When I was younger I thought like the younger forumers. I lived downtown, here and in several other US cities. Cared about the architect who built my building. Couldn't see any other way.

Now I think like the older forumers. I moved back to Michigan. I started a business [[in my late 30's). Live in a house in the suburbs that's not walkable to much besides a library and the lake. Enjoy mowing my lawn. Care more about schools and safety than bars and restaurants. View my abode as more a functional extension of my family's needs than a reflection of my aesthetic tastes.

Note to the youngs: many of you, at some point in the future, will find external stimuli like bars, restaurants, architecture, and transit decrease in importance. Things you don't really care about now will increase in importance. You'll evaluate your options and weigh your decisions and many of you will find yourselves making choices that "old" people make. Enjoy the ride.

Young people are not going to pick an area where finding a job is going to be chore if they are looking to resettle. Look at places like Houston or Dallas, they are booming, yet they have no zoning and a sprawling messes. These attract people. Las Vegas used to attract young workers too. Now? You can't get anyone to move there.

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Originally Posted by laurin

I'm interested in the breakdown of the ages of the commentators. It seems like the majority of the younger people are saying that the region isn't that attractive to the younger set and the older people are disagreeing. :D


I am a bit in the younger set [[29) and agree that the region isn't that attractive. I do find it amusing that my husband's job is the only thing keeping us here.

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I'm on the younger side too, and you're right the region isn't attractive.

But I think the original poster may be framing his/her argument wrong. People from all corners of the country are mobile and tend to want to see what it's like living elsewhere. The problem for Detroit is that very few of them have any desire to live there. That's why the Detroit area is "feeling" older, because it IS getting older. The younger people who were born and raised there are leaving and they aren't being replaced by younger people from elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Young people are not going to pick an area where finding a job is going to be chore if they are looking to resettle. Look at places like Houston or Dallas, they are booming, yet they have no zoning and a sprawling messes. These attract people. Las Vegas used to attract young workers too. Now? You can't get anyone to move there.

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That's why Houston and Dallas will be the next Vegas and Phoenix whenever their dog and pony show begins to falter.

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Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...I'm spending how many hours driving?? Young people don't want to live in the sprawling wasteland that is SE MI, first of all.

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Ok, but just because there IS sprawl, does that mean it's the only option? For instance, that hike out to Cranbrook is just as far for anyone in detroit as it is for GPers...right? Are we mad that there is a GP or are we to be mad at the Booths for building their manor home way out there? And really, how many times a year are we needing to go to Cranbrook. it's all of 45 minutes from GP. How long does it take to get across town in Chicago?

Why if you live in GP/detroit/inner ring are you going to Great Lakes crossing when there are plenty of options south of that? And are you really saying it's difficult to get downtown from GP/ RO/Ferndale or other inner rings to go to games or downtown?

I understand if the issue were Romeo, but it's not like that is the issue. There are plenty places that "young" creative hipsters can and do live around here, what there is a lack of is young, creative JOBS.

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Does anyone think a young creative, "hip" person wants to live in Novi?

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No. but,again, why is Novi the ONLY option?

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Then let's flip that - does a young person want to raise a family in the warzone Detroit? [[yes, young people do think about having families eventually)

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40 years of flight would indicate that is also a "no". This is not an issue exclusive to Detroit... also, every suburb is not Troy.

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Why do we need a great, world class city when we have places like...Livonia! Canton! Sterling Heights!

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That isn't the question. The question is why here are they mutually exclusive. I mean show me a major world class city in the US that ISN't surrounded by sprawl. Why is Detroit a doughnut hole?

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Of course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!"

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Setting aside the tarring of a generation as racists ...and also ignoring the mass exodus of blacks from Detroit for the same reason. people want decent services, police and fire resposnse times measured in minutes not days, and walkable streets. Detroit figures out a way to provide those things and it will compete for residents.

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Not the same value system as the younger generation.

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I agree. Which is why RO, Ferndale, Birmingham,..etc are doing relatively well [[in this shitty economy) and places like sterling heights, warren and and troy are floundering. We don't want to live on a cul du sac inside a maze of a subdivision. but that doesn't mean every suburb is "doing it wrong".

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This is all on top of the fact that there are no jobs here.

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Yeah but if you are employed, the cost of living is peanuts.

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My source: me. I'm mid-twenties. All my friends are leaving and the only young people in my neighborhood live with their parents

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. Mid 30s... left for over a decade, came back when various stars aligned. not sure if it was the best decision, or if I'll stay long term, but the area does have its positives. Most of my HS friends did not come back after college and all but one college friend left for other cities. A couple for the "city" itself [[although they had advanced degrees and had a choice) , but most chose to move to take a job and the prospect of more opportunity elsewhere within and outside of their industry. Some said they'd have come back if there was job for them. A few have said they'd never come back because Detroit is too far gone. One hates this place so much he won't even change planes at DTW. lol.

Dnerd, they go to those places because there are JOBS there no matter what Richard Florida says. if Chicago had 35% unemployment, was insolvent, lead the country in every misery index, and it's one major industry was imploding, no kid with a liberal arts degree would be moving to chicago on a whim like they do now. They know no matter what they'll be able to get a roomate, some sort of subsistence job [[or jobs) to cover rent and living expenses [[or those expenses which mom and dad arent helping out with) , while they pursue what ever it is they think they're going to be when they grow up.

LA was LA before it had a train. If Detroit built 40 miles of train tomorrow it would still be Detroit.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Young people are not going to pick an area where finding a job is going to be chore if they are looking to resettle. Look at places like Houston or Dallas, they are booming, yet they have no zoning and a sprawling messes. These attract people. Las Vegas used to attract young workers too. Now? You can't get anyone to move there.

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Young people pick places that have opportunities. What those kinds of opportunities are go far, far beyond working for a large company. Take some of the people I know who've moved to Detroit. Some of them want to be entrepreneurs. There's the lady who runs Neighborhood Noodle, for instance. A year ago she was working on the Hill in Washington, D.C, but felt strongly enough to move here and open a business. Or take the people at the Yes Farm on the east side. Lots of people have moved there, from places such as San Francisco and Massachusetts, for the chance to own an affordable home and work less, be more self-reliant and spend time doing community work and making art.

Or look at this article:

http://oaklandpostonline.com/2010/10...-demographics/

He said that he moved to Detroit after hearing how much his friends loved living there, but also because “the cheap cost of living is definitely an appeal.” Mondry said because the cost of living is so cheap, he doesn’t have to work long hours and has plenty of free time to explore “the strange environment that is Detroit.”


So, where's the effort to capitalize on this? Nowhere. Instead, I hear a lot of talk about how ONLY JOBS ATTRACT YOUNG PEOPLE, when the evidence shows that young people are attracted to opportunities to do the sort of things they want to do.



Do you feel Detroit is on track to produce the kinds of jobs that Houston or Dallas do? If so, I think you're cracked, because Detroit cannot produce enough jobs for the people it has RIGHT NOW.



And that's why I feel this whole JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS thing is a crock. It's a way to sit back, do little, and simply wait for that magical jobs machine to get turned back on.


Instead of austerity for the people and tax breaks for large companies, or a willingness to flatten parts of the city so an employer can locate there, we should ensure we have the sort of city that young people like. And we should be capitalizing on the young people who do move here.

Finally, I feel that places such as Houston or Dallas are uninteresting places filled with uninteresting people. "Filler people," one of my friends called them. If/when jobs dry up there, they'll trudge on to the next city. I'd rather have the people who move to Detroit at least feel strongly about Detroit, not about chasing the next JEE-OB.

Those factories ain't coming back.

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

When I was younger I thought like the younger forumers. I lived downtown, here and in several other US cities. Cared about the architect who built my building. Couldn't see any other way.

Now I think like the older forumers. I moved back to Michigan. I started a business [[in my late 30's). Live in a house in the suburbs that's not walkable to much besides a library and the lake. Enjoy mowing my lawn. Care more about schools and safety than bars and restaurants. View my abode as more a functional extension of my family's needs than a reflection of my aesthetic tastes.

Note to the youngs: many of you, at some point in the future, will find external stimuli like bars, restaurants, architecture, and transit decrease in importance. Things you don't really care about now will increase in importance. You'll evaluate your options and weigh your decisions and many of you will find yourselves making choices that "old" people make. Enjoy the ride.

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Well, then. Our work is done. Look at how the 40-and-older set is just FLOCKING to metro Detroit. Problem solved. Have fun in Chicago, kids!

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Those factories ain't coming back.

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Agreed. And maybe if we can convince various unions and political leaders of that, the region will actually move forward.

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Originally Posted by bailey

Agreed. And maybe if we can convince various unions and political leaders of that, the region will actually move forward.

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Ummm ... OK.

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

When I was younger I thought like the younger forumers. I lived downtown, here and in several other US cities. Cared about the architect who built my building. Couldn't see any other way.

Now I think like the older forumers. I moved back to Michigan. I started a business [[in my late 30's). Live in a house in the suburbs that's not walkable to much besides a library and the lake. Enjoy mowing my lawn. Care more about schools and safety than bars and restaurants. View my abode as more a functional extension of my family's needs than a reflection of my aesthetic tastes.

Note to the youngs: many of you, at some point in the future, will find external stimuli like bars, restaurants, architecture, and transit decrease in importance. Things you don't really care about now will increase in importance. You'll evaluate your options and weigh your decisions and many of you will find yourselves making choices that "old" people make. Enjoy the ride.

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I would agree that people's priorities change over time, sometimes what seemed to be important takes a backseat to things like "how does X community's school district rank." But, simply because that is true shouldn't mean that we should write off everything most people under 35 find important when selecting a place to live. There may be a few exceptions like yourself who return back to Michigan, set up shop, and raise a family in the 'burbs, but the region can't lean on folks like you alone to carry the weight.

Detroit needs fresh-faced, energetic young people in the pipeline. It needs outsiders with fresh perspectives, entrepreneurs, innovators, new enterprises, and to be continuously evolving to remain at the cutting edge. Metro Detroit/Michigan is not accomplishing this right now. The state needs to do a better job of catering to this demographic. It has a framework in place with Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, and Detroit, but it needs serious work. Michigan/Detroit can be a high quality-of-life region where people pay a premium to live because it has so many nice natural characteristics, history, and top-notch institutions, we only have to make them desirable again. Let's just get back to normal. Have a solid urban core with transit and walkable neighborhoods and the young people will come, especially if Detroit can maintain it's curb appeal as being a place where anyone can make their mark.

I moved away from Michigan in 2009, not so much because I needed a job [[which I did), but because I want my two sons to have jobs. They're toddlers now, but I don't see a promising career future for them in Metro Detroit in 20 years when they'll be out of college. I needed to put them somewhere where they'd have more opportunity. We're happy and propsering, plus it's sunny and warm here in the south. I hated leaving the area where I was born and raised, but I HAD to.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Houdini

I moved away from Michigan in 2009, not so much because I needed a job [[which I did), but because I want my two sons to have jobs. They're toddlers now, but I don't see a promising career future for them in Metro Detroit in 20 years when they'll be out of college. I needed to put them somewhere where they'd have more opportunity. We're happy and propsering, plus it's sunny and warm here in the south. I hated leaving the area where I was born and raised, but I HAD to.

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Wouldn't it be funny if, after all that, one of them moved here one day? Just a thought ... :)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Houdini

I moved away from Michigan in 2009, not so much because I needed a job [[which I did), but because I want my two sons to have jobs. They're toddlers now, but I don't see a promising career future for them in Metro Detroit in 20 years when they'll be out of college. I needed to put them somewhere where they'd have more opportunity. We're happy and propsering, plus it's sunny and warm here in the south. I hated leaving the area where I was born and raised, but I HAD to.

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HAD to? Sounds to me like you made a choice, unless you did leave because you didn't have a quality job here. Michigan has excellent universities which give out great degrees that people can find jobs with anywhere, I am sure your children would have done fine with them.

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Originally Posted by p1acebo

HAD to? Sounds to me like you made a choice, unless you did leave because you didn't have a quality job here. Michigan has excellent universities which give out great degrees that people can find jobs with anywhere, I am sure your children would have done fine with them.

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I took her statement to mean she did not want her kids to have to move away from their home to find those jobs. The problem discussed often is that Michigan through it's excellent state univeristies is subsidizing the knowledge economy for a lot of other places as the grads settle anywhere but Michigan.

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Originally Posted by DetroitDad

PS: I don't think you are disrespectful. I am downright mad that we are being forced to pay for the boomer's greed and glut. Everything they have, they have because of the investments and sacrifices of the past generation. So what will we inherit? Debt? A poorly built mcmansion in former cornfields and woodlands? A wasted planet with nothing left to consume? Crumbling infrastructure? Fallen empires and governments? Corrupt systems? What will they be leaving us? I'm mad! I'm mad when I look in my daughter's eyes and have the strangest feeling that the days of my children will be harder than my days, thanks to government/Wall Street's subsidized greed and corruption. I'm mad..... sigh.

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Before I respond could you tell me just who you are mad at?

English wins the Quote of the Day "Don't try so hard to be cool, try harder to be content."

Life isn't about who has the best job, works for the coolest Firm, goes to the hippest B'ham bars or has behind the scenes VIP access at Roast. Life is the journey. The people. The stories. If you spend your life looking for happiness in Detroit, Chicago, DC or NYC - you won't find it. Happiness is a state of soul, not a matter of circumstances.

Many of these discussions are nothing more than thinned cries for validation of the decisions we've made. We crave the acceptance of others. I moved from Michigan because I couldn't find a job. I stayed in Michigan because I am not a quitter. I went to an out of state college because I had the money and grades. I went to an urban college because I wanted to interact with the economic/social disconnect.

PS - While I do agree with your observation purely statistically - I think the choice of venue largely impacts that perception. Go to a Five Guys, Chipotle or Potbelly's at 4:00 on a Sunday and you'll see a different demographic than a Coneys, Olga's or Old Country Buffet. Go to a Ferndale, Royal Oak or Birmingham and you'll think differently than St Clair Shores, Roseville and Harper Woods.

Funny that, Detroit Nerd. I am a liberal, never fired but like the wit.

I am of two minds on this debate, my eldest swore he would never settle here. Guess what? He's back, good job, new wife. Just bought his 1st home.

As an almost official senior now, [[what constitutes sr?) Not having youth gangs running around make for a peaceful life. Last litle thugs that roved through my neighborhood were throwing rocks at a neighbors dog. Wouldn't stop, I went out and told them to move on, my husband did the same. Funny, my Mom 87, at the time went over and wagged a finger and they listened to her.

Diversity is actually very critical.

Don't laugh at old, cause you'll get there, if you're lucky. The best neighborhoods and establishments lure a nice blend

Remember, being at Hart Plaza and some idiot performer said, everyone's here but your mother. My kids were somewhere in the crowd with their friends. I think they cringed a bit, cause we were there too with our friends.

Old does not mean stagnent.

Funny, this old fart could tell you hot places to be if you are 20/30's crowd.

See you at the Dirty Show if you have any hoopspa [[sp)

There isn't really the option of urban living in Michigan, at least not in a major city. Real estate agents will try to tell you Ferndale is "urban" even though it follows a conventional suburban model. The closest thing is Midtown which follows a more organic urban model. But it is half-empty and not even that dense in population, and most blocks seem desolate minus Warren/Cass and Willis/Cass corners.

Detroit must offer true uran living within the core to retain younger educated people.

Maybe it's no coincidence that Hamtramck is the most dense and diverse city in the state...

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Maybe it\\\'s no coincidence that Hamtramck is the most dense and diverse city in the state...

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Density only because of the 2 family flats that are all over the city. And the simple fact that it is not Detroit. The surrounding commercial districts had gone the way of the dinosaur long ago, if you have not noticed. The only plus to Hamtramck as a city is the bar scene. Of course, if you are a drunk, that appeals to you. But other than that? Not so much. Maybe a couple of restaurants now and again but nothing remarkable, or not easily obtainable elsewhere. And I should know having lived in Hamtramck and lived in the bar scene too. It gets old. Especially fighting people for parking spaces.

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Originally Posted by bailey

Dnerd, they go to those places because there are JOBS there no matter what Richard Florida says. if Chicago had 35% unemployment, was insolvent, lead the country in every misery index, and it's one major industry was imploding, no kid with a liberal arts degree would be moving to chicago on a whim like they do now. They know no matter what they'll be able to get a roomate, some sort of subsistence job [[or jobs) to cover rent and living expenses [[or those expenses which mom and dad arent helping out with) , while they pursue what ever it is they think they're going to be when they grow up.

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Has Chicago ever had 35% unemployment? I know it got bad there after the collapse of the domestic steel industry. I'm not sure if it was ever Detroit bad though... But here's what I do know about Chicago: Chicago stopped growing at a meaningful rate a couple of decades before the growth machine shut off in Detroit after having outgrown Detroit for most of the two cities simultaneous periods of growth*. Yet Chicago has also been able to stabilize itself, but for some reason Detroit has not [[city and region included since the Detroit area was projected to be one of the few major metro areas to actually lose population this past decade). Here are the growth rates for both cities over the last 160 or so years:

Detroit Chicago
1850 130.93% 570.30%
1860 117.04% 274.40%
1870 74.44% 166.50%
1880 46.20% 68.30%
1890 76.96% 118.60%
1900 38.77% 54.40%
1910 63.02% 28.70%
1920 113.34% 23.60%
1930 57.86% 25.00%
1940 3.49% 0.60%
1950 13.93% 6.60%
1960 -9.70% −1.9%
1970 -9.35% −5.2%
1980 -20.52% −10.7%
1990 -14.58% −7.4%
2000 -7.46% 4.00%

*Contrary to popular belief, both cities really came into being simultaneously after the construction of the Erie Canal, and Detroit was actually larger than Chicago until the 1840s.

Why is it that a region like Detroit has had so much trouble reinventing itself? If you look at Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. -- some of Detroit's "old gritty city" peers -- their economies have fundamentally regenerated themselves over the past two generations. The predominant industry in Chicago 40 years ago is not the same as the predominant industry today. On the other hand, the predominant industry in Detroit 40 years ago is the same as it is today.

Other Detroit peers with stagnant or declining economies -- Cleveland, Baltimore, St. Louis -- suffer from much the same lack of urban investment and lackluster infrastructure as Detroit. They also tend to be located in regions where the majority of the regions wealth is concentrated outside of the city limits, like Detroit. Pittsburgh is the only exception that comes to the top of my mind, but then again that city has also managed to significantly reverse course over the past decade or so unlike its Rust Belt peers. [[I also can't think of an example of a city where there is still a significant amount of wealth within the central city, but the regional economy is faltering...)

So why is it that some old gritty cities are able to remake themselves and others haven't? And those cities who have remade their economies seemingly did it without the local government leadership promising to wave a magic wand and create a new industry [[which should sound absurd to anyone who bothers to put that into historical context). Does Detroit's inability to attract a significant amount of new blood to the area have something to do with the economic rut that the region is in now?

From my point of view, it's hard for me to argue that the two are unrelated and maybe this all has something to do with Detroit's "young people" exodus.

Just took one son to airport. LA then Manhatten. Sounds good. Glad our youth can be mobil.

Still don't understand why younger folk can't find places to go to see "people like them" maybe try reading Metro Times or Detroit Monitor or maybe??? just read?

Still lots of venues for the younger folk.

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I'm interested in the breakdown of the ages of the commentators. It seems like the majority of the younger people are saying that the region isn't that attractive to the younger set and the older people are disagreeing. :D

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Over 40 now, but lived in S.E. Mich. as a twenty and thirty something and never felt like there was "nothing to do."

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

A liberal is a conservative who's been fired.

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A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.

I will have to say that those are the best quotes that I've seen on this forum to date.

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Originally Posted by Pam

Over 40 now, but lived in S.E. Mich. as a twenty and thirty something and never felt like there was "nothing to do."

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In all fairness, that would be 10/20 years ago. The economy was a different animal then as well.

Only a handful of people that I graduated with in 2003 stayed in the state- most went to major cities like Atlanta, Chicago, or just returned to their home states. I don't think that it's the inability to read as one helpful poster pointed out, but lack of a real community of young professionals/graduates to pull from.

Although a statement that I probably use too much "no matter where you go there you are" applies a bit here as well, it cannot be denied that more attractive venues for the younger generation exist elsewhere. The 'look harder' mantra is going to fall on deaf ears when they can easily just pick up and move elsewhere to a more receptive environment.

Sort of along the line of discussion with this thread:

http://chronicle.com/article/Adults-...ees-in/125995/


This is a US map with county by county data on percentage of folks with college degrees.

Lot of fun to play with as you can do it for everyone, men, women, white, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

You hover your mouse over a county and the percentage pops up.

Washtenaw and Oakland are well educated, Macomb less so.

Leelanau [[up in the little finger) is highly educated.

Midland does well.

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In all fairness, that would be 10/20 years ago

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But the types of things we used to do are still around. See my orginal post.

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The economy was a different animal then as well.

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Michigan has had assorted downturns every few years of my adult life it seems like. I had friends leave for jobs after college in the 80s.

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Originally Posted by Pam

But the types of things we used to do are still around. See my orginal post.



Michigan has had assorted downturns every few years of my adult life it seems like. I had friends leave for jobs after college in the 80s.

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You didn't list what they were [[unless I just completely missed a post which is entirely possible)

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...I'm spending how many hours driving?? Young people don't want to live in the sprawling wasteland that is SE MI, first of all.

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A wasteland in your opinion, perhaps. I like living here. I've traveled a fair bit and found that most anywhere I've gone has required a car. Many of the places had public transportation, but the only domestic location I've been where I felt I absolutely didn't need a car was NYC. I guess my point is that I understand public transportation is a big deal to you, but it's not a deal-breaker for everyone.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Does anyone think a young creative, "hip" person wants to live in Novi? Then let's flip that - does a young person want to raise a family in the warzone Detroit? [[yes, young people do think about having families eventually) For some reason the aging boomers in this region never really got that. Why do we need a great, world class city when we have places like...Livonia! Canton! Sterling Heights! Of course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!" Not the same value system as the younger generation.

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My wife and I are about 30. Happily residing in Livonia. We go out a lot [[perhaps too much, after a recent review of where our money goes). Sometimes locally, sometimes RO or Ferndale, and more often than not, in Detroit. There's always a new restaurant, bar, show or event to check out. I guess I've never been bored or thought "there's nothing to do" as one poster said.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

This is all on top of the fact that there are no jobs here.

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I wish people would stop saying this. Both my present and past employer are looking to hire 25-50 people, each. Engineers, mostly. My wife's company [[rather small) is looking to hire 5 people - which would nearly quadruple its size.

Maybe those saying "there are no jobs" should rephrase that to "I don't have the skills that are currently in demand" [[despite the fact that the government has all but given away free college education the last few years). This isn't necessarily directed at you, DetroitPole, so don't take it personally. I just happen to know quite a few unemployed/underemployed people [[not all who live in this area) that refuse to go back to school to boost their career, but have NO issue complaining about what they see as a lousy job market.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

My source: me. I'm mid-twenties. All my friends are leaving and the only young people in my neighborhood live with their parents.

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I don't doubt that, but I can offer contrary anecdotal evidence: In my Livonia neighborhood, there are at least 4 young couples within an couple houses down either way. The other houses have middle-aged parents [[with or without children still living with them). Most of the elderly that lived here when I moved in have passed away or moved into assisted living facilities. I'd say in my little slice of Metro Detroit, the median age is probably about 35.

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Originally Posted by wazootyman

I don't doubt that, but I can offer contrary anecdotal evidence: In my Livonia neighborhood, there are at least 4 young couples within an couple houses down either way. The other houses have middle-aged parents [[with or without children still living with them). Most of the elderly that lived here when I moved in have passed away or moved into assisted living facilities. I'd say in my little slice of Metro Detroit, the median age is probably about 35.

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My son lives in a subdivision near 22 Mile and Heydenreich Road. His sub is sort of junior McMansions. He is in his early forties and most of his neighbors are that age or less. His kids are both in high school.

Course none of his neighbors are the "arts, music, and culture" crowd.

Last time I was up there, I enjoyed a few drinks at the Waldenburg Bar with a few members of the blue collar Detroit diaspora. They were very hospitable to a stranger who just strolled in through the door.

Can anyone stay on focus.

The point of this thread was, what's in it for younger people to stick around.

I challenge them to find focus and create new venues.

Leaving is easy, Staying is hard.

Sumas

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Originally Posted by laurin

Although a statement that I probably use too much "no matter where you go there you are" applies a bit here as well, it cannot be denied that more attractive venues for the younger generation exist elsewhere. The 'look harder' mantra is going to fall on deaf ears when they can easily just pick up and move elsewhere to a more receptive environment.

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Exactly. There is clearly a problem with the status quo, otherwise there wouldn't be threads like this [[admittedly I started it), but based on the responses it's apparent I am not alone. Instead of debating whether Michigan has an issue attracting young people, we should be talking about how to make the place more accommodating to them.

When I think about places that I would consider moving, they all have these things in common or a combination thereof [[in no particular order):

1. Vibrant urban environment
2. Lots of entertainment and nightlife
3. Mass transit
4. An interactive atmosphere
5. Fast-paced/hustle & bustle
6. A diversified business/economic environment
7. A diversity of people and cultures
8. Aspiring/ambitious attitude among the populous
9. Outdoor recreation/quality parks & public space
10. Positivity and optimism in the society
11. Concern for the overall well-being of the region
12. A range of housing options

On a scale of 1-10, [[assume NYC is the benchmark and scores a 10 for each criteria, and Nunapitchuk, Alaska scores straight zeros) here's how I'd rank Detroit :

1. Vibrant urban environment = 6.0
2. Lots of entertainment and nightlife = 8.5
3. Mass transit = 3.0
4. An interactive atmosphere = 6.5
5. Fast-paced/hustle & bustle = 5.5
6. A diversified business/economic environment = 4.5
7. A diversity of people and cultures = 7.0
8. Aspiring/ambitious/entrepreneurial attitude = 5.5
9. Outdoor recreation/quality parks & public space = 9.0
10. Positivity and optimism in the society = 3.5
11. Concern for the overall well-being of the region = 3.0
12. A variety of housing options = 5.0

Overall, Detroit scores 67/120. Not awful, but much room for improvement. Without thinking much about it, I think Chicago would rank somewhere around 100, which is important because Chicago seems to be Detroit's biggest competitor for young people. Mass transit could easily push Detroit into the mid-to-upper 70s. Detroit also has other perks that aren't counted, like ease of entry, cost of living, storied history, etc. So, that helps it close the gap. Detroit's strongest suits are entertainment and nightlife located downtown/Midtown and parks, which are helped big time by Campus Martius, the ever-expanding Riverwalk, and Belle Isle. If Detroit could just add 2-3 points in those other lacking factors, it would be a very attractive city to most young people I think.

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Originally Posted by sumas

Can anyone stay on focus.

The point of this thread was, what's in it for younger people to stick around.

I challenge them to find focus and create new venues.

Leaving is easy, Staying is hard.

Sumas

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I don't necessarily disagree with you, but why would they stick around and build something new versus go to another area? How many new graduates say 'hey, let's go to this unfriendly area and make it more young friendly?' Especially when they can just move to another area as they do not necessarily have strong ties to the existing area.

Challenging is easy, finding a reason to take up the challenge is hard. :)

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Originally Posted by laurin

You didn't list what they were [[unless I just completely missed a post which is entirely possible)

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On page one of the thread.

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Originally Posted by wazootyman

Maybe those saying "there are no jobs" should rephrase that to "I don't have the skills that are currently in demand" [[despite the fact that the government has all but given away free college education the last few years). This isn't necessarily directed at you, DetroitPole, so don't take it personally. I just happen to know quite a few unemployed/underemployed people [[not all who live in this area) that refuse to go back to school to boost their career, but have NO issue complaining about what they see as a lousy job market.

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This is an absurd statement. I know plenty of well educated people who could not find work in the Detroit area, and it wasn't for lack of trying. I personally had friends who spent months looking for work in Detroit to no avail. One of those friends moved to NYC and had found work in a matter of days.

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I don't doubt that, but I can offer contrary anecdotal evidence: In my Livonia neighborhood, there are at least 4 young couples within an couple houses down either way. The other houses have middle-aged parents [[with or without children still living with them). Most of the elderly that lived here when I moved in have passed away or moved into assisted living facilities. I'd say in my little slice of Metro Detroit, the median age is probably about 35.

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This actually brings up another point. The friends I have who were able to stay in Detroit and find work have almost all have married and started having kids. For my friends who moved to other cities with a more active social scene, getting married and having kids does not sound appealing at this stage in life. So I think when millennials complain that there is "nothing to do" they are saying that there is nothing to do in Detroit if you don't want to get married and have two or three kids in the next 3 years. The Detroit area might be a great place to raise kids [[if you have a job), but it's not a very appealing place to be a young single. Other regions, like Chicago, can offer both lifestyles.

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So I think when millennials complain that there is "nothing to do" they are saying that there is nothing to do in Detroit if you don't want to get married and have two or three kids in the next 3 years

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Can we please stop this ridiculous statement that there is "nothing to do"? I'm still waiting to hear back from Chitaku about what is missing.

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]Has Chicago ever had 35% unemployment? I know it got bad there after the collapse of the domestic steel industry. I'm not sure if it was ever Detroit bad though...

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That was my point. The statement was that "young" people are going to Chicago because IT'S CHICAGO [[said breathlessly and starry-eyed). My point was that Chicago wouldn't be such a draw if its economy resembled Detroit ...mass transit or not

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yet Chicago has also been able to stabilize itself, but for some reason Detroit has not [[city and region included since the Detroit area was projected to be one of the few major metro areas to actually lose population this past decade).....
Why is it that a region like Detroit has had so much trouble reinventing itself? If you look at Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. -- some of Detroit's "old gritty city" peers -- their economies have fundamentally regenerated themselves over the past two generations.

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Chicago has a huge knowledge based economy. There are..what? 5 major and a host of minor colleges and universities in and immediately around Chicago? U of Chicago, DePaul, Lyola Northwestern, UofI Chicago...etc. Most of them with nationally ranked undergrad and Grad programs. Boston, Philly, NYC...etc have virtually the entire Ivy league system and some of the most hard to get into colleges and universities in the country winding their way in and through them. I mean Philly alone... a city often compared to Detroit ....has an Ivy and several other major universities in and immediately around it. Imagine what Detroit would look like if MSU, Eastern, Oakland and UM were located IN Detroit along with UofD and Wayne? heck, just imagine if UofD and Wayne had most of their student body live on campus instead of communting.

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Pittsburgh is the only exception that comes to the top of my mind, but then again that city has also managed to significantly reverse course over the past decade or so unlike its Rust Belt peers

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. Again you have a huge knowledge based economy in Pittsburgh as well.. Carnegie Mellon, Duquesne, Pitt....etc. not to be repetative but stick 150k worth of residential students, and 10 jobs per student [[no idea if that is the multiplier...but I'm betting not far off) and where would Detroit be?

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So why is it that some old gritty cities are able to remake themselves and others haven't?

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Because they had a foundation under them. Detroit is a boom town that went bust. It doubled in size in 20 years based on the creation of one industry. It had nothing to fall back on and never did anything to diversify once the writing was on the wall. everyone just waited for the factories to open again.

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And those cities who have remade their economies seemingly did it without the local government leadership promising to wave a magic wand and create a new industry [[which should sound absurd to anyone who bothers to put that into historical context).

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Because the "old" industry never really left. Banking,education, finance, shipping, meat packings...etc. The "old" may have been eclipsed for a time, but after the massive industrial wave crested and receded, you still had an educated class and knowledge economy to keep the place from turning into a ghost town.

I don't think this is a bad place to be "young". there is tons to do and you'd be hard pressed to live as well as cheaply in any other major city or metro region. I think the young are underrepresented because there are just fewer opportunities for entry level jobs. Eventually the baby boomers will retire and die out and the region will get back to an equilibrium. the boom years were the abnormality around here.... today is the best we can hope for...especially with 8 years of republican rule coming that will gut any sort of funding for education or quality of life issues.

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Originally Posted by Vox

Density only because of the 2 family flats that are all over the city.

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Umm ... no. Detroit's housing stock had plenty of two-family flats. What Detroit didn't have after the 1970s was a steady stream of immigrants to occupy those buildings. Hamtramck has immigrants coming in from Yemen, Bangladesh, Albania and many other countries. Without those people moving in, Hamtramck would not be as dense.

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Originally Posted by Vox

And the simple fact that it is not Detroit. The surrounding commercial districts had gone the way of the dinosaur long ago, if you have not noticed.

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Yes, I live on a street that is half-Detroit, half-Hamtramck. The Hamtramck side of the street still has a few old ladies who grow gardenias in white buckets on their porches. The Detroit side of the street is rougher, more disinvested. But my friends and I live all over the border, some on one side, some on the other, spilling over from the density that is Hamtramck. Anyway, we are talking about Hamtramck, not Oakland Avenue, "if you have not noticed."

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Originally Posted by Vox

The only plus to Hamtramck as a city is the bar scene. Of course, if you are a drunk, that appeals to you. But other than that? Not so much. Maybe a couple of restaurants now and again but nothing remarkable, or not easily obtainable elsewhere. And I should know having lived in Hamtramck and lived in the bar scene too. It gets old. Especially fighting people for parking spaces.

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OK, so you haven't been to Hamtramck in years and simply do not know what you're talking about. The Yemeni community has opened up several excellent grocery stores up and down Conant, even right on Caniff. Excellent new Indian restaurants include Zam-Zam and Aladdin Sweets, not to mention the Mexican food at Maria's Comida, or the premium coffees [[not to mention the art on display) at Cafe 1923. And you still have the wonderful Polish fare at all three Polish restaurants. In the last years, we've seen a few cool new resale shops open, two art spaces open. Some of the graying, old, outdated places are closing, ready for repurposing, including the awful Clock diner.

Hamtramck's licenses can now be transferred countywide, and with the Muslim population moving in, there is less demand for sale licenses. As for those bars, there are plenty of reasons to go to the bar, drunk or not. The stylish new Mars Bar on Joseph Campau is a specialty cocktail bar you'd expect to find in Royal Oak. Skipper's bar on Conant has a lively, thoughful crew of young folks and old-timers, nice diversity.

So, yes, you have no idea what Hamtramck looks like. Thanks for your message from the past, though. Reminds me how Hamtramck continues to improve, "if you hadn't noticed." :)

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

This actually brings up another point. The friends I have who were able to stay in Detroit and find work have almost all have married and started having kids. For my friends who moved to other cities with a more active social scene, getting married and having kids does not sound appealing at this stage in life. So I think when millennials complain that there is "nothing to do" they are saying that there is nothing to do in Detroit if you don't want to get married and have two or three kids in the next 3 years. The Detroit area might be a great place to raise kids [[if you have a job), but it's not a very appealing place to be a young single. Other regions, like Chicago, can offer both lifestyles.

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That's exactly it! I'm a young, educated professional...single no kids. And for those of us that don't want to rush into a life of being married with children, Detroit is not as friendly as cities like Chicago, NYC, etc. It's not that there is "nothing to do", but the hip urban cosmopolitan areas that we seek are simply not as prevalent as in other cities.

I think what most people on this forum want...a vibrant downtown, walkable neighborhoods, mass transit, an overall urban environment that could compliment the suburban offering that metro-Detroit provides...is exactly what the younger generation wants, and will get over time. [[and Detroit is already much better than 10yrs ago) Until then, it's just a bit harder...and many will happily move to Chicago, New York, San Francisco, Boston, Seattle, etc, where they can get that experience...