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Just before noon today, I saw massive amounts of smoke billowing from the GDRRA facility on Russell. The smoke was visible over a great distance, but was quickly put "under control." I have seen no reports of this emergency situation on the forums, or in the news, which strikes me as curious. Scorch marks visible on the exterior of the building.
More pics...hopefully not too small.
I'm sure that there's nothing to worry about. Just don't breathe for 24 hours... the City of Detroit is taking good care of the situation. That, I'm sure about.
emergency situation ?
Probably a bunch of tires. Hardly an "emergency situation" .
At first, seeing the title, I though Captain Obvious is crying wolf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Seeing the blackening on the outside I think this was quite a serious fire.
The 'super-sidiary' of Detroit Thermal that provides steam heat service to much of downtown detroit recently purchased the
former GDRRA [[Greater Detroit Resource Recovery) plant.
from Crains...This environmentally-friendly plant saves Detroit from contributing to those evil trash-mountains that the suburbs and Canada are creating in SE Mich. Burning the trash to create steam and electrical energy is much smarter.Quote:
A newly created joint venture of Connecticut-based Atlas Holdings LLC and Ohio-based Thermal Ventures II LP will own the Greater Detroit Resource Recovery Authority waste-to-energy plant along with the steam energy loop it services and an operating company for five other local steam facilities, in a transaction valued at $50 million.
No date is set for the waste plant, also known as the Detroit incinerator, to reopen.
Link to Crain's Detroit article
The trash incinerator, which Dave Bing promised to close, has been rebranded as "green". This makes me laugh and cry to no end. Unfortunately, plans for curbside recycling, shutting down the biggest incinerator in the US, and generally cleaning Detroit have been put aside in favor of attracting business, no matter how dirty it is.
If it caught fire, I'm happy I'm out of town today to avoid breathing in whatever burned. The air didn't smell as bad when the thing was shut off for a few months.
I can't comment on the Detroit incinerator but, I firmly agree with incineration. Here, in Canada's capital, we have filled up an old quarry and piled up garbage to anbelievable level.... right on the entrance to town on one of it's major highways. What leaks from that pile, and others like it, concern me a whole more than what a clean incinerator might spew out of its stacks. The pile does look nice now since they planted grass on it... just don't drink the wellwater for miles around it. ALL of the homes that were in the vicinity have bought and razed. And the stench is smelled for miles and miles.Quote:
Originally Posted by j to the jeremy
Nice pics TheCarl! Thanks. The location of this air poisoner near to Detroit's most vibrant area, the cultural center, adds impetus as to why it needs to be shut down. Fortunately for the cultural center, prevailing winds move the pollution to the east 80-90% of the time but that is no comfort to those to the east.
As far as the incinerator being "rebranded" as green, that has been going on for a long time.
I recall a story about one of the clowncilmembers speaking to a class of Detroit students. During a question-and-answer period, one of the students asked a good question: Why doesn't Detroit do recycling?
The clowncilperson adopted her best church-lady smile and condescendingly said, "Oh, but it is recycled. It is all recycled into energy."
Face it: The incinerator is going to be there, forever, poisoning the air on the east side, occasionally burning down, rebuilt with taxpayer money, as long as the waste-management issue is controlled by an authority composed of mayoral appointees. There are simply too many backroom dealers and palm-greasers ready to make money off of it, and too many sycophantic, inner-circle clowcil-types ready to shill for this cancer factory.
Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.
There is no such thing as clean incineration.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcwigle
If we must have it, there is no excuse for it to be within a mile of a major hospital complex, university, cultural center, and smack dab in the middle of a neighborhood that would otherwise be desirable for redevelopment but is now a wasteland.
And by the way, residents of Detroit do not appreciate Canadian "recyclables" that Toronto and other municipalities have been found sending to the incinerator to burn. Plus, the incinerator can not even be turned on unless it is full to capacity, something the city achieves each day by burning suburban and Canadian trash. It is an example of putting the regions trash, quite literally, in what should be its gem, greater downtown Detroit.
Detroit is the largest city in the US without curbside recycling, despite the tireless efforts of grassroots groups to change this. Instead, we support our asthma rates of 3x higher than normal by burning other people's trash in a residential area, all so that a steam heating loop for 146 buildings downtown can shoot smelly air out of manholes.
Ummm... some corrections here.... all Canadian trash goes to a landfill in western Wayne County... and NOT the Detroit Incinerator.... and if there's no curbside recycling... then what are those [[2 cubic ft. sized) blue plastic boxes that go curbside in Detroit every trashday next to the tall trash barrels and "paper" leaf/lawn bags?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by j to the jeremy
What blue plastic boxes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Meddle, there were more than a dozen emergency vehicles on site responding to the situation - so at the minimum, it was a very serious situation, I'd say! But, the volume of smoke from this incident, and scorching of the building, suggest that there was an emergency.
Lowell, thanks. In this case, the smoke was rolling south-southwest, toward the hospitals and the cultural center. Much of the smoke hovered at ground level, obscuring visibility along the I-75 service drives and across Warren.
I'm not familiar with the inside of the facility, but based upon videos I've seen of the center, the smoke was emanating from what may be the sorting part of the facility, where the waste is separated. If that is correct, there should have been no smoke coming from that building whatsoever.
I'm still puzzled over the fact that I saw news crews and TV cameras there, and seemingly every fire engine that could be mustered - yet there are no stories that I can find?
Incineration is growing in Europe. Detroit was at the vanguard when the incinerator was built. Check out what's happening... from the NYTimes....
Read full article in New York TimesQuote:
Why is Europe ahead of the U.S. in embracing clean incinerators that turn garbage into energy?
Johan Spanner for The New York Times
The Vestforbraending plant in Copenhagen, the largest of the 29 waste-to-energy plants in Denmark. Their use has reduced the country's energy costs.
Far cleaner than conventional incinerators, this new type of plant converts local trash into heat and electricity. Dozens of filters catch pollutants, from mercury to dioxin, that would have emerged from its smokestack only a decade ago.
....
Your choice. Live in the past and oppose progress, and surprise, you'll get no progress and watch Europe figure out how to do green.
Yes, we have an old trash incinerator. Maybe its time to improve. Not regress because of naysayers.
Detroit's incinerator heats downtown Detroit with less CO2 than suburbia who is burning natural gas.
Hahaha. Thanks for the humor. Why don't you go live in a house at Medbury and Dubous if the incinerator is so freakin' sweet! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Are there any left on Medbury??Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
In case you didn't know it [[and haven't watched a PBS show showing European efforts at greening) he's serious.... If the Europeans can figure out a way to filter out the pollutants... then why can't we? :confused:
As for those blue containers.... I don't live in Detroit... but I see them often on the far east side [[Balduck Park area) on trash day. Don't know what they're doing in the rest of the city. Also... they only take paper leaf/lawn bags [[that's recylcing, isn't it?).... plastic bag lawn waste gets left at the curb by the trash man.
Is this merely a pilot program [[or remnants of one?) not implemented throughout the city??
Yeah, at least Google maps shows a few. See, I drive down St. Aubin quite a lot to go to work. In the summer, I often bike. The headache-inducing piles of trash that stink all summer long, combined with the toxic pollutants the plant sprays all over the area, where I live, help me see it in a slightly different light than, say, a suburbanite watching interesting stories on public television about new technologies in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Oh, sure. There are ways to filter out pollutants. They simply aren't profitable. See, the incinerator is supposed to be profitable. And all those environmental controls that are supposed to protect Detroiters from the harmful pollutants cost too much money. Plus, we in the city have listened for years as the people running the incinerator talk out of both sides of their mouths. For years, they said it was just fine, a model of "green" technology. Then, later, when it changed hands, they had to saddle the city with a number of expensive "upgrades." [[Well, how safe was it then?) And their PR people have been disingenuous at best. At one point, they had a reporter friend of mine up on the stack and told him, "See? Nothing's coming out!" [[Nothing? Nothing that smells, but as for odorless things that kill ...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
I wouldn't know about lawn bags, as I compost all my waste at home, but I have never seen a recycling container in Detroit ever. I had heard they had some "pilot plans" but that they were only doing it as a test. In other words, there is no comprehensive recycling component for Detroit's waste management plan. I think that -- before we get all excited about how Europe is able to burn trash so well -- we could make a few changes right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
* Implement a serious curbside recycling program, ensuring we have less trash to dispose of in the first place.
* Build upon the Garden Resource Program's efforts to teach Detroiters how to compost at home, eliminating the need to pick up so much lawn waste.
* Give tax credits for businesses that use sustainable practices, such as composting, using compostable packaging or minimal packaging.
And, if incineration is so great and its benefits are so easily understood, then it should be a popular public choice. Therefore, we don't need an authority of inner-circle advisers to greenlight it, but it should come out handily in public debate. Therefore:
* Get rid of GDRRA and replace it with a simple department that answers to the people of Detroit, the council, or ANYBODY but the mayor and his cronies.
Gistok, I think you're sincere, but I wonder how you'd feel if we plopped the incinerator down where YOU live. You may not be as gung-ho as you seem to be now.
I didn't remember that they had started the program in 2 neighborhoods under Cockrel, which is great. [[http://detnews.com/article/20090421/...side-recycling)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
However, we are still well behind most other cities. And the reason we have been slow to implement the program is because the incinerator must be filled before it can be turned on. The city's trash [[and now only 90% of its recyclables!) only fill about half of the plant, which means there's no motive to keep the recycling program growing, but there is a financial motive to keep the incinerator full.
And I know Canadian trash isn't supposed to go to the incinerator, but there was a case a few years back when it came out that Toronto had been sending things our way to be burned instead of recycled in Canada. I will find the article when I have time.
The blue containers are a pilot program, limited to only a few neighborhoods. In Grandmont/Rosedale they actually have the roll out blue courville containers, which are [[allegedly) picked up every other week. The program is about 18 months old. From what I've gathered from my own observations, people either don't know or don't care what winds up in them, and don't know when it gets picked up. I've seen some trucks carry two drivers, one to verify the contents, the other to operate the lift, after which many containers remain curbside because they "fail" inspection.
Part of the problem must come from the fact that the program was implemented as Cockrel was on the way out, and Bing hasn't really been public about improving Detroit's environmental record. Does anyone know what kind of education was given to the 'hoods who received bins, or were they just distributed with little notice or care?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
Jeez, I had kinda suspected it was designed to fail. You know, like, "Them ignant Detroiters will never be able to learn to recycle." More paper and plastic to BURN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitehouse
Someone trying to rouse me?
If the incinerator was shut down it wouldn't smell so bad.
My job is done here.
PM me next time, Ill get back to you within the week.
Enjoy living next to trash mountain!Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hindsight
I live within a 2 miles of the incinerator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
I used to live on Dubois and Medbury. Amazingly the smell wasnt too bad most of the time but when we got it we got it good, granted Im probably not as sensitive as most having lived in that area for the past nine years. Had to shut all the doors and windows when the wind was blowing just right. For the most part it didnt bother me too much but yes there is still quite a few residents in that area including a school and connecting church.
Thanks! ... that explains why some folks were questioning the blue containers. Apparently Cornerstone Village... the far east side of Detroit east of Cadieux, south of I-94 and north of Mack... was part of this pilot program as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
If they do shut it down we can make Trash Mountain into a ski hill/resort like Mt Brighton.
But not north or east of it? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Here's the news clip from last year.
http://detnews.com/article/20090421/...side-recycling
I know that the stench of the incinerator reeks to high heaven during the hot months towards the surrounding area... but I do have this question.... in regards to "greening".... can better "European style" filters/scrubbers make the incinerator chimney exhaust safer and more palatable? Or does the technology required for safe emissions require a more modern "entire" incinerator??
It is the largest incinerator in the United States, and I doubt you could retool something so big to match a new generation of designs. Think of how well we've been able to adapt the Packard Plant for reuse ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
I also wonder where these incinerators are located in Europe. Probably not in the middle of a city?
Also, Europeans have serious limitations on space [[very crowded) and resources [[say, stuff to burn) that could make it more sensible over there. We don't really have those issues here.
Hey, 20 years ago, it seemed like it would make sense to incinerate trash. The promises were great: Not only would trash be "recycled" into energy, it would also be profitable. Win-win. But it is not borne out by the facts. Detroit has paid billions of dollars to run this, and the external costs are unknown in terms of added disease and increased depopulation.
I think our efforts are better spent on the things other cities are doing that we're not. And the incinerator, since it needs lots of plastic and paper to burn, seems to be an impediment to the first step: a serious recycling component to Detroit's waste management plan.
Count me among those who consider incinerators as "green" as nuclear reactors. [[Remember them? They were gonna produce electricity "too cheap to meter.")
Hamtramck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Glad to see some intelligent dialogue. A bit rare here. Orthodoxy doesn't advance thought.
Diversity does. Recycling should be encouraged. Waste-to-energy should be encouraged. We are all responsible to minimize our impact on the environment.
Regarding conversion of our 'trash burner' to modern standards, its probably not likely, as well as I understand this. I've been told its not suited to conversion to bio-mass burning, such as corn-cobs or wood waste. That's becoming popular elsewhere.
Detroit Thermal [[utility for downtown steam) bought this joint, and I believe they are committed to making it work. Every calorie they create from trash is one less that'll be made by burning natural gas.
Keep the EPA on them to stay in compliance on air-quality, and let them experiment, learn, fail, and evolve.
The vast majority of the noxious output of the incinerator stems from the absence of plastic recycling in the trash burned. Among other things. If they banned plastic garbage bags and instituted a citywide recycling program for plastic alone, that would stop a significant amount of the horrible odors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
You keep harping on this point, but burning natural gas is FAR cleaner than burning trash, period, and all you're doing is shifting the source of the pollution. The very least that could be done is a city-wide recycling program if they aren't willing to close the incinerator to at least reduce what goes into there. Detroit's incinerator is ridiculously large, oversized even, one of the largest in the world. There isn't any reason for that, especially knowing what we know now about the burning of waste. People are worried about the smell; the real problem is the stuff you don't see: mercury, dioxins, and lead among other poisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Somehow I don't see Detroit reaching Denmark's 30% recycling rate when it's contractually obligated to provide the thing with so many tons of trash per year or pay a penalty[[has this changed since it sale?). Recycling, Waste, Energy, blah, blah, blah, we're broke. We've pumped more than a billion dollars into this and it still is not up to par with anything that can remotely be considered green. Strictly from a fiscal view, it's time to close the thing down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4620041.stm
Quote:
Detroit's incinerator heats downtown Detroit with less CO2 than suburbia who is burning natural gas.
I'm sorry, which suburban community is making plans to embrace "green" incineration technology?
Sorry poorly worded comment. Intent was to highlight the efficiency of district heating by steam generated as by-product of trash burning vs. distributed consumption of natural gas in suburban office buildings. [[OK, Detroit's steam district is no prize-winner at the moment, but district heating/cooling is more efficient and environmental than individual plants in each building)Quote:
Originally Posted by Russix
Agreed, be interesting to see if the old steam pipes would function as geothermal heating/cooling system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
The suburbs, Madison Hgts. closed it's incinerator years ago, and there's enough steam heat coming out of the vents and sewers under Detroit to heat how much?
Not sure if this is what you're asking, but Detroit Thermal provides comfort heating to 146 buildings in downtown Detroit, including Renaissance Center, Penobscot Building, City-County Bldg., Fox Theatre, Detroit Medical Center [[DMC), Charles Wright African-American Museum and Henry Ford Hospital, per their website.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallboy66
The steam comes from two main sources; the incinerator [[trash fueled) & the Madison plant [[natural gas fueled). See detroitthermal.com for a district map.
So..... any news about the fire?