Let's regionalize Cobo so we can move forward with an expansion

Wasn't that the rallying cry?

Looks like it might not happen. Now the question is: Had this happended under Detroit control would there have been 'outrage' over the city's incompetence and dragging their feet on something so important.

Why do I expect the tone to be very different now that it is the region dragging their feet on the expansion? Why do I expect that people would be bitching about dropping 100K on a study if this were done by the city?

Cobo expansion may not happen

Jim Lynch / The Detroit News

Detroit -- The expansion of Cobo Center, considered by some to be necessary for keeping the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, may not take place.
Officials with the Detroit Regional Convention Facility Authority, which operates Cobo, have funded a market study to determine whether an expansion of the 50-year-old facility is necessary. In recent years, members of the Detroit Area Auto Dealers have said the convention center needs to be expanded to host the auto show, which is one of the biggest annual events hosted by the city.
The authority hired Minneapolis-based consulting firm Conventions, Sports & Leisure to study the need for the expansion. That report, which will cost the authority as much as $100,000, will be delivered by June.

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"We believe that once the strategic plan comes back evaluating Detroit's market as well as markets across the county and comparable facilities, we'll have a better idea of how we should move forward," said Jamaine Dickens, a spokesman for the authority.
He added members of the auto dealers group will be involved at every step of the decision-making process.
The authority, which took control of Cobo in September, is made up of representatives from Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties, Detroit and the state.
Plans have been in the works for a $288 million expansion that could add at least 166,000 square-feet. The facility's current configuration features roughly 700,000 feet.


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100413/...#ixzz0l0FRi2vQ

It needs to expand and update if Cobo wants to attract more conventions. NAIAS isn't going to cut it. If we want more, we need more space. I can't believe they're saying this!

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

It needs to expand and update if Cobo wants to attract more conventions. NAIAS isn't going to cut it. If we want more, we need more space. I can't believe they're saying this!

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That's what's comical about this. The sakle for regionalizing [[which I supported) was that they would be able to move quicker on upgrades and an expansion. This would help bring in more conventions.

Well, we have a region with no vision running it and now questioning if money should be spent on it. I wouldn't be surprised if Cobo isn't expanded and some of the monies marked for Cobo are then distributed to other conventions centers in the region.

I can however guarantee that there will either be no talk of this or it will be supported as good financial sense. Had this happended under Detroit's authority people would be up in arms about wasting 100K on a study and getting nothing done to improve Cobo.

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Originally Posted by jt1

That's what's comical about this. The sakle for regionalizing [[which I supported) was that they would be able to move quicker on upgrades and an expansion. This would help bring in more conventions.

Well, we have a region with no vision running it and now questioning if money should be spent on it. I wouldn't be surprised if Cobo isn't expanded and some of the monies marked for Cobo are then distributed to other conventions centers in the region.

I can however guarantee that there will either be no talk of this or it will be supported as good financial sense. Had this happended under Detroit's authority people would be up in arms about wasting 100K on a study and getting nothing done to improve Cobo.

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Bait and Switch.

In lawmaking, "caption bills" that propose minor changes in law with simplistic titles [[the bait) are introduced to the legislature with the ultimate objective of substantially changing the wording [[the switch) at a later date in order to try to smooth the passage of a controversial or major amendment. Rule changes are also proposed [[the bait) to meet legal requirements for public notice and mandated public hearings, then different rules are proposed at a final meeting [[the switch), thus bypassing the objective of public notice and public discussion on the actual rules voted upon. While legal, the political objective is to get legislation or rules passed without anticipated negative community review.


And now they're going to do the same with the City of Detroit's Pensions.

Right now, in its current size, Cobo can host more than 90% of U.S. conventions. And the City of Detroit doesn't have the hotel package to allow Cobo to sell the other 10%. Did you ever hear the caution against building a church for Easter Sunday?

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Originally Posted by SWMAP

Right now, in its current size, Cobo can host more than 90% of U.S. conventions. And the City of Detroit doesn't have the hotel package to allow Cobo to sell the other 10%. Did you ever hear the caution against building a church for Easter Sunday?

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The regionalization of Cobo was predicated on moving forward with an expansion. One can argue if it is needed but it was moved to a regional authroity for two purposes [[1) better management and [[2) move forward with an expansion.

The debate whether the church needs to be built was already held and promises were made. Of course there will be no local outrage because a regional authority lied. Had the city lied you can damn well believe that there would be outrage in the news, sound bites from the drunk POS L. Brooks Patterson, etc.

The regional authority didn't "lie" - they are appointees of the regional govenments and were apponted to make these decisions after the legislation was proposed and passed.

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Originally Posted by SWMAP

Right now, in its current size, Cobo can host more than 90% of U.S. conventions. And the City of Detroit doesn't have the hotel package to allow Cobo to sell the other 10%. Did you ever hear the caution against building a church for Easter Sunday?

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Why not? Zoning regulations all over America require parking lots to handle the Saturday before Christmas.

What's another lousy $288 million of public money. It's not like Detroit is broke or anything.

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Originally Posted by jt1

Wasn't that the rallying cry?

Looks like it might not happen. Now the question is: Had this happended under Detroit control would there have been 'outrage' over the city's incompetence and dragging their feet on something so important.

Why do I expect the tone to be very different now that it is the region dragging their feet on the expansion? Why do I expect that people would be bitching about dropping 100K on a study if this were done by the city?

Cobo expansion may not happen

Jim Lynch / The Detroit News

Detroit -- The expansion of Cobo Center, considered by some to be necessary for keeping the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, may not take place.
Officials with the Detroit Regional Convention Facility Authority, which operates Cobo, have funded a market study to determine whether an expansion of the 50-year-old facility is necessary. In recent years, members of the Detroit Area Auto Dealers have said the convention center needs to be expanded to host the auto show, which is one of the biggest annual events hosted by the city.
The authority hired Minneapolis-based consulting firm Conventions, Sports & Leisure to study the need for the expansion. That report, which will cost the authority as much as $100,000, will be delivered by June.

Advertisement

"We believe that once the strategic plan comes back evaluating Detroit's market as well as markets across the county and comparable facilities, we'll have a better idea of how we should move forward," said Jamaine Dickens, a spokesman for the authority.
He added members of the auto dealers group will be involved at every step of the decision-making process.
The authority, which took control of Cobo in September, is made up of representatives from Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties, Detroit and the state.
Plans have been in the works for a $288 million expansion that could add at least 166,000 square-feet. The facility's current configuration features roughly 700,000 feet.


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100413/...#ixzz0l0FRi2vQ

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The whole reasoning behind the renovation/expansion in the first place was to provide ample space and ammenities for the autoshow to keep them from leaving town. The NAIAS continues to plead for more space, so by passing the legislation last summer, we were looking to keep them there by providing more space, but now, we won't be providing them more space, so they will probably pack up and leave.

They had to spend $58 million on delayed maintenance just to get the hall in shape for the NAIAS 2010 - fix the roof leaks, get the dock upgraded, upgrade the electricity, buy insurance [[never had to have it before as City of Detroit self-insures), hire staff, develop financial systems,etc. Then there's more on-going maintenance that needs to be addressed . Cobo used to be a "loss leader" for city of Detroit but now, after 2012, it has to support itself with a balanced budget. Pretty hard to do all that and expand on $200 million left. I read the articles today and the authority is just saying they are looking for a real business case to support expansion. If future payback isn't there - why should they when they can make it the nicest hall in its class?

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Originally Posted by SWMAP

They had to spend $58 million on delayed maintenance just to get the hall in shape for the NAIAS 2010 - fix the roof leaks, get the dock upgraded, upgrade the electricity, buy insurance [[never had to have it before as City of Detroit self-insures), hire staff, develop financial systems,etc. Then there's more on-going maintenance that needs to be addressed . Cobo used to be a "loss leader" for city of Detroit but now, after 2012, it has to support itself with a balanced budget. Pretty hard to do all that and expand on $200 million left. I read the articles today and the authority is just saying they are looking for a real business case to support expansion. If future payback isn't there - why should they when they can make it the nicest hall in its class?

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$230MM [[It was $288 MM) left for capital improvements. The operational funding still comes in through hotel/liqyuor taxes.

So what happens to the $200 MM if they scrap their plans?

They have to pay the City of Detroit $20 million for the parking very soon.

The hotel/liquor tax is encumbered right now thru 2015 paying off the last Cobo expansion. Then that revenue stream will be applied to any new bonds sold - and there will have be some serious borrowing to expand.

I can't believe this thread. Even though some well noted Detroiters think Cobo is a "jewel"... it's a freaking $#itbox. Can you really blame the commission if they decide that the money is better spent upgrading the facility to be a competent convention center instead of using it to make a $#itbox a slightly bigger $#itbox?

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Originally Posted by detmsp

I can't believe this thread. Even though some well noted Detroiters think Cobo is a "jewel"... it's a freaking $#itbox. Can you really blame the commission if they decide that the money is better spent upgrading the facility to be a competent convention center instead of using it to make a $#itbox a slightly bigger $#itbox?

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Every time I've been in there it looked pretty damm good to me. I never really notice anything wrong with the place.

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Originally Posted by detmsp

I can't believe this thread. Even though some well noted Detroiters think Cobo is a "jewel"... it's a freaking $#itbox. Can you really blame the commission if they decide that the money is better spent upgrading the facility to be a competent convention center instead of using it to make a $#itbox a slightly bigger $#itbox?

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I agree that it is a tired, beat convention center. My issues lies with the fact that the intent of having regional oversight was to move towards expansion quicker with more regional cooperation. I also wonder if the media and local officials address this in the same manner than they would have if it was still city owned.

The entire driving force behind regionalizing cobo was expansion of Cobo. This makes me wonder about the integrity of regionalization. I also wonder if regionalizing Cobo was a ploy to move regional control to allow greater opportunities for shows in Novi and the new Macomb County facility being built.

I typically do not call out conspiracy theories but I am getting the feeling that the intent is to do the bare minimum with Cobo then allow the OC and MC facilities to compete for conventions.

I am a proponent of regionalization [[and anyone but CoD managing anything) but I suspect this will ultimately lead to mroe exhibitions being directed to other convention centers.

Absolutely nothing exists in Oakland County or Macomb County that can compete for anything but the smallest conventions. Nor is there likely to be any such thing built. and what about the hotel package that would need to be built. you have to have thousands of rooms within walking distance to make bids for conventions.

You folks sure are getting your feathers ruffled over 1 newspaper article... :eek:

Lets wait and see what the results are before manning the pitchforks and torches...

If the NAIAS has input in this entire process... then you may be worrying for naught! :rolleyes:

Usually many of you are more often than not somewhat sceptical of media articles...

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Originally Posted by jt1

I also wonder if the media and local officials address this in the same manner than they would have if it was still city owned.

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Yeah I got that from your first post. Which I was why I said I can't believe this thread. You're whining... not about real events, but about hypothetical events... and not even events that could hypothetically take place in the future, but events that could have hypothetically happened but didn't and never will. This "boo hoo the suburbs/media/etc are mean to us" attitude is getting old.

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The entire driving force behind regionalizing cobo was expansion of Cobo

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Well that was part of it, upgrades to the facility were the other part. I thought that would be pretty obvious since upgrades have already started while expansion has not.

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I also wonder if regionalizing Cobo was a ploy to move regional control to allow greater opportunities for shows in Novi and the new Macomb County facility being built.

I typically do not call out conspiracy theories but I am getting the feeling that the intent is to do the bare minimum with Cobo then allow the OC and MC facilities to compete for conventions.

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Yeah that makes sense... the regional commission is out to destroy Cobo's business, and you can see it in all their actions thus far! Fixing the leaking roof, upgrading electrical systems, etc are clearly all designed to keep Cobo down.

If the suburban powers that be really wanted to let Cobo go down the drain and steal all that convention business, they could have done something much easier and cheaper than regionalizing it. All they would have had to do is... absolutely nothing! There was no way Cobo was going to survive the way it was being run. The suburbs could have sat on their hands and accomplished what you think they are conspiring to do without lifting a finger or spending a dime.

Bottom line: you're being ridiculous.

"EFF it"

Let's just build a new convention center/arena and be done with it. If Cobo is a dump and the Joe is a dump then the region needs new buildings. The city and suburbs can build a new "Cobo" somewhere in FoxTown and connect the new arena to it and tear down those crappy eyesores down and open up the riverfront.

[[of course, Detroit would need to find a vein of gold or a diamond mine or perhaps some "unobtainium" in Detroit to make that dream happen)

For real, there is no money here. It is time to make do. The regional board cannot make anything happen without any money. If the money was there, this would be a moot point but this is different day.

I think they just didn't want people rushing to conclusions for whatever reason. I have a feeling that $100,000 study will just come to the conclusion that "Uh, yeah you need to expand COBO. We take Visa, Mastercard and American Express. Thanks for your business."

It's pretty damn obvious if NAIAS is demanding more space, then COBO needs to expand. I think it will expand into the arena, joe louis, or both.

"Let's regionalize Cobo so we can move forward with an expansion

Wasn't that the rallying cry? "

I thought the D-Town yell was "Tear That Shit Down!"?

Perhaps I'm wrong ... Bueller? Bueller?

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Originally Posted by SpartanTom

I think they just didn't want people rushing to conclusions for whatever reason. I have a feeling that $100,000 study will just come to the conclusion that "Uh, yeah you need to expand COBO. We take Visa, Mastercard and American Express. Thanks for your business."

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Pretty much. I think that it will happen this time, especially if the rumblings about a new home for the Wings are true.

Anyway, Cobo isn't the crappiest convention center I've ever had the privilege to visit. That honor goes to the "Ice Cube" in Daytona Beach, Florida. It makes Cobo seem like a brand spankin' new facility.

Cobo could defiantly use some renovations and maybe an expansion, but of course the auto show people want it expanded. That doesn't mean they have to have it or they'll leave, even if they say that.

I think a more important issue for attracting conventions is the lack of a transit link to the airport. There is no rail and no express bus to the airport. This could be easily fixed with at the bare minimum an express bus that runs from Downtown to the airport along I-94.

How can we expect to have very many conventions if people can't even get from the airport to the city? Not everyone can afford or wants to rent a car. Taxis are grossly expensive. Why can't there be a 2.00 bus ride?

A transit link from the airport to Downtown should be included in any regional plan to expand the convention center.

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

Cobo could defiantly use some renovations and maybe an expansion, but of course the auto show people want it expanded. That doesn't mean they have to have it or they'll leave, even if they say that.

I think a more important issue for attracting conventions is the lack of a transit link to the airport. There is no rail and no express bus to the airport. This could be easily fixed with at the bare minimum an express bus that runs from Downtown to the airport along I-94.

How can we expect to have very many conventions if people can't even get from the airport to the city? Not everyone can afford or wants to rent a car. Taxis are grossly expensive. Why can't there be a 2.00 bus ride?

A transit link from the airport to Downtown should be included in any regional plan to expand the convention center.

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Agreed.....

I am a born Detroiter but years ago I left for California only to return to Detroit and I admit I looked at the area with different eyes. Living in the Bay Area, I found it very convenient to go to the BART station and take the BART either to Oakland's airport [[via shuttle) or SFO. In Minneapolis, they have a light rail that goes from MPLS/STPAUL to downtown. Same in many other cities yet Detroit never constructed a rail from downtown to Metro. Insane.... Not every traveler is willing to paid high fees to travel by car and why go downtown when you can lay your head at the nearest hotel....in Romulus.

Mass transit should have been a reality 40 years ago and Southeastern MI wonders why people avoid the state.

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Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Agreed.....
Mass transit should have been a reality 40 years ago and Southeastern MI wonders why people avoid the state.

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People don't "avoid`the state of Michigan because of the lack of mass transit. They avoid the state because of lack of economic opportunity. When the auto companies [[and their massive satellite of suppliers) were humming, Oakland County perennially was one of the five fastest growing counties in the US. Macomb County was not far behind. Both were growing in population much faster than the population decline of Detroit. In addition to Detroit, the northern counties and the U.P. have experienced population loss due to the decline of their extractive industries [[timber, iron ore, copper). If the auto industry comes back, southeastern Michigan will come back. Other industries will not move in because of the really bad business environment encoded in the state laws and regulations. A streetcar system in Detroit is not going to turn this around.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

People don't "avoid`the state of Michigan because of the lack of mass transit. They avoid the state because of lack of economic opportunity. When the auto companies [[and their massive satellite of suppliers) were humming, Oakland County perennially was one of the five fastest growing counties in the US. Macomb County was not far behind. Both were growing in population much faster than the population decline of Detroit. In addition to Detroit, the northern counties and the U.P. have experienced population loss due to the decline of their extractive industries [[timber, iron ore, copper). If the auto industry comes back, southeastern Michigan will come back. Other industries will not move in because of the really bad business environment encoded in the state laws and regulations. A streetcar system in Detroit is not going to turn this around.

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I put that last sentence only hyperbole purposes. I am quite aware of why people aren't coming to Michigan and it is not because of not having a light rail. Thank you for noticing it......:)

" Oakland County perennially was one of the five fastest growing counties in the US. Macomb County was not far behind. Both were growing in population much faster than the population decline of Detroit."

Not true. The population in the Detroit MSA has been stagnant for almost 40 years. As people left Detroit, they moved to the suburbs. The growth in OC and MC wasn't from attracting a lot of new people, it was from the population exodus from Detroit.

http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm/pm2160.htm

"A streetcar system in Detroit is not going to turn this around."

SE Michigan needs a regional transportation system that works. I'm still waiting to hear of any major American or world city that functions well without one.

How many millions of dollars was Cobo draining from the city's general fund every year? Wasn't it between $10 and $15 million? The regional boogey men that have JT1's grapes in a bunch can do what they want with it, for all I care. I'm glad it's off the city's books.

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Originally Posted by Novine

I'm still waiting to hear of any major American or world city that functions well without one.

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It depends on who you ask.

A good majority of the people here would say we function just fine without a mass transit system [[or the bus system is enough).

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

Why can't there be a 2.00 bus ride?

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TECHNICALLY, there is a roughly $2 bus ride from Metro to Downtown [[SMART *Route 125 Fort St.* Bus)

"A good majority of the people here would say we function just fine without a mass transit system [[or the bus system is enough)."

If they do, it's against all evidence to the contrary.

Now back in 2000 when Michigan's unemployment rate was 3% we had great transit. Then we did away with that fantastic transit system and unemployment rose to 15%. If we'd just build a great transit system again then everything would be fine. See, it's all about transit.

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

Now back in 2000 when Michigan's unemployment rate was 3% we had great transit. Then we did away with that fantastic transit system and unemployment rose to 15%. If we'd just build a great transit system again then everything would be fine. See, it's all about transit.

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The point is having a functional mass transit system can only help. What, do you think it will further hurt our economy? I honestly do not get the detractors of light rail.

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Originally Posted by SpartanTom

I honestly do not get the detractors of light rail.

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I think it's a combination of things, but it all boils down to fear. Fear of government. Fear of taxes. Fear of "socialism". Fear of having to share public space with people. Fear of having your car taken away. Fear of having your "freedom" taken over by "social planners." Fear of big, bad black people getting off a light rail vehicle near your house ... just fears. That's all.

Given all those fears, it begins to look safe and sensible to design an all-car system that probably less than 75 percent of us can use.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I think it's a combination of things, but it all boils down to fear. Fear of government. Fear of taxes. Fear of "socialism". Fear of having to share public space with people. Fear of having your car taken away. Fear of having your "freedom" taken over by "social planners." Fear of big, bad black people getting off a light rail vehicle near your house ... just fears. That's all.

Given all those fears, it begins to look safe and sensible to design an all-car system that probably less than 75 percent of us can use.

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Reminds me of all the "tea party" protests with all of the rampant fear of over taxation. It's hilarious because you know that probably every single one of them, save the congressmen/women preaching to them, got a tax CUT after Obama took office. They don't even know what they're afraid of anymore.

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Originally Posted by Novine

"A good majority of the people here would say we function just fine without a mass transit system [[or the bus system is enough)."

If they do, it's against all evidence to the contrary.

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The fact is, like R8RBOB shows in his story, the citizens of Metro Detroit don't know any better. They've been forced to become accustomed to this environment [[And we must admit, this potential doom & gloom that's been predicted hasn't really impacted folks as badly as one thought) so as long as they can reach ponit A and point B themselves, they believe it's sustainable.

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

Now back in 2000 when Michigan's unemployment rate was 3% we had great transit. Then we did away with that fantastic transit system and unemployment rose to 15%. If we'd just build a great transit system again then everything would be fine. See, it's all about transit.

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We did not have great transit in 2000. We had really shitty traffic. If we'd just build a great transit system, then we'd at least have a chance at attracting new businesses and residents to the area instead of letting other metro regions bleed us dry because we are only capable at expressing total incompetence on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

Now back in 2000 when Michigan's unemployment rate was 3% we had great transit. Then we did away with that fantastic transit system and unemployment rose to 15%. If we'd just build a great transit system again then everything would be fine. See, it's all about transit.

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Bullshit.

First of all, I thoguht we were only talking about Metro Detroit, not ALL of Michigan. Even Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor have far better transit than we do. Second of all, Metro Detroit never had "great" transit. The buses and its system were just as ragedy in the early 2000s as they are now. Even the streetcars still had their faults.

That said, we did have heavier congestion back in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Of course that was because he had an ok economy. I do remember I-75 & The Lodge out of Downtown actually being congested duirng rush hour back then.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I think it's a combination of things, but it all boils down to fear. Fear of government. Fear of taxes. Fear of "socialism". Fear of having to share public space with people. Fear of having your car taken away. Fear of having your "freedom" taken over by "social planners." Fear of big, bad black people getting off a light rail vehicle near your house ... just fears. That's all.

Given all those fears, it begins to look safe and sensible to design an all-car system that probably less than 75 percent of us can use.

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...and fear of evil yuppie white people moving into the area and gentrifying the area...
[[if we're gonna drag up stereotypes, lets make sure ALL are represented)

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Originally Posted by ferntruth

...and fear of evil yuppie white people moving into the area and gentrifying the area...
[[if we're gonna drag up stereotypes, lets make sure ALL are represented)

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I don't think anyone actually opposes improved transit on the grounds that it will attract "evil yuppie white people."

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Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I don't think anyone actually opposes improved transit on the grounds that it will attract "evil yuppie white people."

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Did you ever read the blog by some Highland Park resident? I don't know where to find it, but basically it cited Woodward light rail as the beginning of the "invasion".

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Originally Posted by SWMAP

Absolutely nothing exists in Oakland County or Macomb County that can compete for anything but the smallest conventions. Nor is there likely to be any such thing built. and what about the hotel package that would need to be built. you have to have thousands of rooms within walking distance to make bids for conventions.

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Fort Lauderdale and Miami Beach have convention centers that do quite well in attracting conventions without meeting your qualifier. They have the thousands of rooms but not within walking distance.

Hah! I am not a fan of light rail but to say it would be an invasion of HP is laughable!

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Originally Posted by Russix

Did you ever read the blog by some Highland Park resident? I don't know where to find it, but basically it cited Woodward light rail as the beginning of the "invasion".

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