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I am coming up for it and I seen on their web site where the tour sells out every year and you need to get tickets early. I will be driving up from Nashville for it. I dont want to get there just to be told the tour is sold out. Can someone please tell me how/where to order tickets for the tour in advance. Thanks, EX
This was directed at Gistok, but I'll answer...
Call Preservation Wayne and purchase your tickets:
313-577-7674
http://preservationwayne.org/
I think they take reservations over the website too, when it gets closer to the tour day. [[April/May if I recall correctly.)
I called, and they put me on the list, but cant get tickets until June. Thanks to all who replied.
Exmotowner... you didn't hear this one from me...Quote:
Originally Posted by exmotowner
... but in the 11 years of doing the theatre tours I am not aware of ANYONE ever being turned away from a theatre tour... some people may have had to wait for the next 1/2 hour tour [[this won't happen to folks with reservations however), but I'm not aware of any last minute [[no reservations) show-ups ever getting turned away. ;)
The 4 1/2 hour tours start at 9:00AM, 9:30, 10:00, 10:30, 11:00 and last tour starts at 11:30. PW "tries" to keep each group to 30 people or less. Since the earlier tours are more fully booked up, there's always the next tour. I doubt anyone ever had to wait more than 45 minutes for a tour though.
One likely reason we haven't turned folks away is that the last [[11:30AM) tour is usually the least booked up. But reservations guarantee you a specific tour time... and [[very important)... the availability of a box lunch at the Detroit Opera House [[these have to be pre-ordered!).
Also... the reason that the tours are usually the 2nd Saturday of August is that getting all the theatres available is nearly impossible [[on a Saturday) during other times of the year.
What a great problem to have. It is a real tribute to the success and inspired activities of Preservation Wayne. Groups like them and many others are what make Detroit so wonderful.
Tell that to George Jackson. If you haven't seen his rant on "so-called preservationists" during the second half of this "ABJ" interview, you should: http://www.dptv.org/ondemand/abj/abjvodlg.shtmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
When I talked to the lady at preservation Wayne, I mentioned the UA to her and she said she would see if "Mike" would ask the iliches about seeing it. I know that wont happen, but just a thought. I know NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Thanks Gistok [[and everyone else who replied). I'll make sure to make and keep a reservation though.
The PW folks will do their best, trust me. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by exmotowner
That would be sweet huh.
If not this year, then possibly next. Sometimes planting the seed is all it takes.Quote:
Originally Posted by exmotowner
Yes it is truly wonderful that Preservation Wayne charges money to walk people through the theaters that private developers have restored and to have lunch in an Opera House whose restoration was largely funded by the very organizations they criticize for being anti-preservation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
What a truly wonderful and useful thing for them to do as their marquee event.
Compare that sterling accomplishment to what other cities have done...like say Preservation Greensboro...
http://www.blandwood.org/
Yes they offer walking tours and home tours but they have also bought and preserved an architecturally significant manison that is now open as a museum. They also run an architectural salvage warehouse and give grants to owners working to restore significant structures. They also identify, puchase and flip significant buildings - all with funds they have raised in a COUNTY of less than 470,000 people.
Its time to stop giving out particpation trophies on web forums and start challenging the preservation community in Detroit to stand up and take it to the next level. Andy Griffith is leaving you in the dust...
I agree with PQZ that it would be nice if PW did more towards historic preservation, but alas they don't have rich donors to fund many of its' activities. They rely on tours and membership dues... and in this economy, that has been a shrinking market.
Even architectural salvage would be nice. But in a city like Detroit, where scalpers are a lower priority on the already thinly stretched police protection totum pole, it becomes difficult to do so. I wonder if any offer was made by the DEGC to allow anyone to salvage any parts of the Lafayette Building? Those beautiful Fleur-de-lis on top of the building would have been nice to salvage.
I remember the rather ugly row when Preservation Wayne asked if they could preserve the fancy arched entrance of the Madison-Lenox as the building was being razed. The Ilitch's gave their OK, but when the city ordered demolition folks were approached, their reply was to smash the ornate arch with a back-hoe.
So the preservation "mentality" among public and private interests in Greensboro [[as well as nearby Winston-Salem, where 18th century "Old Salem" has been lovingly preserved) is probably a few notches higher than here in Detroit. Sad but true.
and it seems george jackson has christened himself the only true preservationist in this town. so take that you "so called" preservationists...
PQZ makes some valid points about the unrealized potential of an organization like Preservation Wayne. Moreover, everyone should realize that his hypersensitivity to any criticism of DEGC policies only occurs because that organization has achieved a level of infallibility and success unmatched around the country.
Seeing as we're benchmarking here, I'll see if I can pull out my file on the City of Charlotte/Mecklenburg County Economic Development Office and the City of Greensboro EDO to tally up the tens of millions of dollars they have spent on CBD/Center City demolitions as they follow the DEGC model in creating developer-ready land parcels. I know that file is here somewhere. Their demolition budgets are gi-normous.
Preservation takes money.Quote:
Originally Posted by swingline
I was ready to launch into a tirade against you folks, then decided it wasn't worth getting banned.
right, preservation does take money. but which have we spent more on? demolition or preservation? look where it's gotten us. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by LodgeDodger
PGI raised their money 25 years ago by having a plan and vision. You cannot tell me that in a county of [[at the time) 300,000 people that they were all so rich they were able to buy the equivalent of the Hecker House when 1 million + in Wayne County can't raise funds to put together a decent strategic plan or even an architectural salvage operation.Quote:
I agree with PQZ that it would be nice if PW did more towards historic preservation, but alas they don't have rich donors to fund many of its' activities. They rely on tours and membership dues... and in this economy, that has been a shrinking market.
Pure and utter bullshit.
Always an excuse, never an action plan.
What color is the sky on your planet, PQZ? Are you active in the Detroit Preservation efforts? Perhaps you are affiliated with another group?Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
The sky is a crystal clear blue. I am no longer in Detroit but when I was there I was quite active in preservation efforts from the public / private side.Quote:
What color is the sky on your planet, PQZ? Are you active in the Detroit Preservation efforts? Perhaps you are affiliated with another group?
While I was in Detroit, for politeness and protocol, I held back on the critiques of what is a largely ineffectual preservation community that spends more time simpering and complaining that it does in action.
My point is that Gistok whines that rich people in Greensboro supported PGI and that Detroit is full of poors that don't support preservation.
Horseshit. Wayne County is three times the size of Guilford County and has the Grosse Pointes and the western suburbs. The Detroit Metro area is more than 10 times the size of the Greesnboro metropolitan area and includes one of the wealthiest per capita counties in the US.
The reason PGI got it done is they spent their time developing and thinking through good solid plans. They set achievable goals and worked towards them. They built credibility. Its NOTHING unique. Hundreds of communites across the country have done the same with similar or less resources. The Detroit preservation community has not anything with its potential resources, despite a large and monied metropolitan area...
Perhaps the donors aren't there because they don't see a plan, a track record or credibility. They arecertainly there for the other civic institutions and other non-profits like Greening of Detroit. The argument that no-one values preservation in Detroit or that no-one has any money in Detroit is a steaming crock of shit.
The money is there, the interst is there, the organization isn't.
Lots of time spent printing t-shirts, writing anry screeds on forums and no actual planning or working.
Largely funded?Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
Well, "largely" is a relative term. The DEGC put $150,000 in facade improvements into the Detroit Opera House and then loaned them an additional $1.5 million.
To put that in perspective, the DEGC's total commitment to the Detroit Opera House was less than half of what it spent to convert the Statler Hilton Hotel into a vacant lot.
There was something quite similar to that in the Detroit area. It was called the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
The credible organization that could not launch a basic website to collect donations in an eleven month span?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
See earlier comment about reaching achievable goals. If you can't even build a basic website to collect donations why the fuck should anyone take the orgnization seriously?
And it not just me. Search the archives on this forum and you will see complaint after complaint after complaint about people WANTING to help and donate and the OTSC not being abole to even get a paypal account up.
But boy did the Preservation Coalition ever write a great letter six weeks after demo started!
Looking at the website of Preservation Wayne, I at am a loss to figure out exactly what they really DO. I'm not throwing grapes, LD, but just an observation on 30+ years of PW's accomplishments. Having no blog entries at all for over a year tells me that there's a hunk of trouble brewing there.
I mean, sure, advocacy, and the tours immediately come to mind. Other than paying the salary of a director, and whatever incidentals, what else is there?
I'd sooner see them attempt to do something concrete. I like the sound of what they have done in Guiliford County, PQZ, and I'll bet that if there were attempts at such a venture here, it would go a long way toward increasing PW's visibility and viability.
Sometimes, something solid that you can wrap your arms around is better than all the grand plans a group may have. The OTSC is a good case in point, shoulda, coulda, woulda.. The key to all of this is simple really, in the words of Yoda:
"Do or do not... there is no try.",
Stosh, in the past [[before major loft development took place downtown) Preservation Wayne offered the public some Loft Development Workshops. There was a lot of interest by developers and these helped spur interest in loft development downtown in recent years.
PW hasn't gotten into the bricks-and-mortar issues as some conservancy groups have, but they have done a lot to promote the surviving historic fabric of the city. We volunteered and cleaned out the city owned National Theatre on a weekend back in 2000. There must have been 20 tons of debris in the interior [[lots of fallen ruined plasterwork). And there are countless other projects that we've contributed manpower towards.
PW also heavily promoted the surviving mansions on Ferry Ave. Today, with the help of the DIA [[and their 4 mansion Inn on Ferry Ave.) as well as other developers building quality infill housing, that street looks better than it has in decades.
PQZ bitches about the grousing on this forum... but only a small fraction of members here are PW members.
Another issue is that the Detroit preservation community is rather fragmented... there's PW, Cityscape, DAADS [[Detroit Area Art Deco Society) and other smaller groups. It would be nice to combine efforts under say.... a Detroit Conservacy Group... but that's not my call.
But PW does try to promote the gems of Detroit. But that doesn't get as much press as say... New York photographer/artist Jose Camille Vargara, who proposed downtown become the abandoned American Acropolis.... or DEGC, who has let trees grow out of their building tops and it becomes pathetic headlines in some of the nations major dailies [[would it have killed them to get some pruning shears and a saw??).
True, that has happened. And some lofts have been built. What did that do for Preservation Wayne's bottom line? Or their core vision? These developers made some serious coin developing these properties before the bottom fell out of the market. wish that they would have donated some of that to the group, or toward others. Kind of like a pay it forward type of deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
And the building still sits vacant. Why? An admirable job cleaning that mess out 10 years ago, but come on, there has got to be a use for that place by now....Quote:
PW hasn't gotten into the bricks-and-mortar issues as some conservancy groups have, but they have done a lot to promote the surviving historic fabric of the city. We volunteered and cleaned out the city owned National Theatre on a weekend back in 2000. There must have been 20 tons of debris in the interior [[lots of fallen ruined plasterwork). And there are countless other projects that we've contributed manpower towards.
DIA put that together, right? And you guys promoted them heavily. Safe to say that would have been a hit regardless of PW participation. And who's money put that infill up? I like the looks of Ferry Street, but there's things to be said for involvement from others, like the DIA. If it weren't for their involvement, would that have happened?Quote:
PW also heavily promoted the surviving mansions on Ferry Ave. Today, with the help of the DIA [[and their 4 mansion Inn on Ferry Ave.) as well as other developers building quality infill housing, that street looks better than it has in decades.
It should be your call. Really. These various groups are in existence only for the self-interest of each group. It reminds me of that picture contest on this site:Quote:
PQZ bitches about the grousing on this forum... but only a small fraction of members here are PW members.
Another issue is that the Detroit preservation community is rather fragmented... there's PW, Cityscape, DAADS [[Detroit Area Art Deco Society) and other smaller groups. It would be nice to combine efforts under say.... a Detroit Conservacy Group... but that's not my call.
http://declaredetroit.wordpress.com/gallery/
If I were to make a caption for that, it would be "Demand Better Preservation". Or "Unify or Destroy", with a nice pic of the Lafeyette building behind it. It's that serious. These groups need to get off their combined asses and actually DO something besides whine about the lack of preservation.
The grousing on this forum is from a whole lot of people that, for many reasons, are deservedly bitter about the half-hearted preservation efforts of the preservation groups. Having a real regional conservancy would be nice. But probably not in our lifetimes, with these groups butting heads, not at all possible.
Stosh, I don't have time for a lot of details... but the DIA was only one of the many groups [[besides PW) that were involved with Ferry St. There was also Charfoos & Cristiansen, Merrill-Palmer Institute, and many others. The DIA just happens to be the most obvious group. There's also a Caribbean emigre [[can't remember his name) who has been doing a lot of the development on the blocks farther east on Ferry Ave.
I agree that bringing many of the groups previously mentioned together would be nice...
The National Theatre is still [[last time I checked) owned by the city... so I can't comment further on that one.
Quote: "The grousing on this forum is from a whole lot of people that, for many reasons, are deservedly bitter about the half-hearted preservation efforts of the preservation groups. Having a real regional conservancy would be nice. But probably not in our lifetimes, with these groups butting heads, not at all possible. "
Not true, no one is butting heads as you suggest. They have different agendas.... and most of the grousing on this forum is against the preservation efforts of the city, not against preservationists, except for PQZ, who used to work for the DEGC, and finds it hard to post with civility.
Lodgerdodger, this thread has veered off course for too long, no point in letting it get to you personally.
Stosh, one last thing..
In a perfect world, it would be nice if all the Detroit preservation/historic/booster groups could somehow come under an umbrella organization. I've always had the [[silly) dream that it would be great if all of these organizations, plus others such as the Riverfront Conservacy and Parade Co., etc... all co-located in the Broadhead Naval Armory [[next to Belle Isle bridge), which is city owned and is currently empty.
That way, at least having the different groups in the same building would make communication and cooperation much better.
The Broadhead Armory is a wonderful Art Moderne building that has the finest collection of Great Depression era WPA artwork in the state of Michigan... both in plaster/fresco and woodwork. It would be a great use for a wonderful building that has no current future and is sitting empty. It was designed by the husband of Pewabic Pottery founder Mary Chase Stratton... William Stratton.
I think it would come as quite a surprise to Sue Mosey and UCCA that PW and the DIA were responsible for the Inn on Ferry Street. It is obvious Gistok has no clue about how the development actually happened.
Stosh: Those are exactly the observations I have made quietly for the last twelve years. I tried first politely and then later more urgently to convey those concerns for ten years to preservation leaders...
I no longer need to be polite about the issue because I am no longer in Detroit, no longer have to be concerned about potentially needing partnerships with people or the fact that many preservationsists are good firends with friends of mine and than many were more than passing casual aquaintances.
I may come across like a prick these days but the reality is that the preservation community - as expressed through PW and other orgainzations listed above - are ineffectual and, more worryingly, oblivious to the fact that they are ineffectual. While others knob-slobber over an annual theater tour, I demand and expect better. And being polite about it got me nowhere....
Great. Then obviously, then, why don't you outline how you see how this all should be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
If you had free rein to do form a group that would be effectual in preservation in Detroit, what would it be? Lay out the business plan, since you have no intentions of coming back here. I'd be interested in hearing how that shakes out.
Stosh, don't bother... he's been going "Mommy Dearest - wire metal coathangers" on this forum for the past decade [[even when he lived in the D)... as can be seen by this thread... which was a simple question about theatre tours...
I'm done here...
Yes Stosh, don't bother....just listen to Gistok and the Gang. They have done an EXCELLENT job so far....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Or you could look up a thread I started a few months ago about some modest suggestions of how the preservation community could move forward to something more proactive and less reactive and shrill.
Gistok is just pissy because I seem to think that if you want to save buildings you should do more than print t-shirts and play with LEgo as an adult.
Also note that I have nothing against the theatre tours. I think they are great and need to continue. I did not weigh in until folks started blowing sunshine and butterflies about the tours themselves being great preservation activities. If a tour is the standard for good preservation activism, you might as well save the time and money now and plow everything in to the river.
I take it you're saying we should all just forget about the tours and go home? Yeah, I like your spirit! Glad you moved.Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
Now darling thats not at all what I am saying. Note the rest of the post in which I say that the theatre tours are just fine and serve a purpose. But if that is where you end and don't go any further, which is what Gistok and the Gang are doing, well, then nothing changes. "Demand better action from preservationists" should be one of the Detroit Declare thingies.....Quote:
Originally Posted by LodgeDodger
You have no idea how hard I tried to save those. I called up Joel Stone at the DHS to see if he could go through city channels to get them. He couldn't. I had Pres Wayne try. No dice. I called Adamo and finally made progress until I was told that I needed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
1) My own crew.
2) My own equipment.
3) $5 million coverage in insurance.
4) Pay Adamo for salvage rights.
5) Had to have it all lined up and done in a week.
Sad thing is that the Adamo guy told me I was about the 25th person to call about the fleur-di-lis. You'd think with that kind of interest, maybe they'd know there was money to be made.
I also tried talking to Adamo crewmen onsite, including during the 4 a.m. collapses, and was told that after they fell 14 stories, there just wasn't much left of them. A shame.
But trust me, there was DEFINITELY an effort made to save them.
How can preservationists do anything when George Jackson refuses to sit down and talk with them let alone work with them? Some in the preservation community are a bit trigger happy, but there are many sane voices that just want to help. But they're not allowed to or they're ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
I'm going to go by the seat of my pants in reference to the threar referenced by PQZ, since I had to actively go find the article and thread myself...
So I'm assuming that the thread is "A Modest Proposal" found in the HOF threads?
Despite the usual attacks on formatting [[crosspost to DYES solid block of text) I will attempt to distill the points made there:
Bullet points:
1.Stop screaming that DEGC and the City have no vision and have done no preservation activity
2.Compliment and recognize the dozens of projects that ARE preservation projects that are a direct result of the DDA / DEGC and other City efforts – such as the 50+ historic buildings that received direct cash grants for façade restoration work.
3.Engage the DDA / DEGC constructively.
4.Smarten up about the realities of budget priorities
5.Earn a spot at the table and show value
Now, absolutely none of these points answers any of the question I posed earlier, which was:
Try and answer that when you figure it out. All of the above bullet points involve how the preservation community should suck up to the city, when in reality the preservation community should become something far more important, something the city should WANT to work with. It's all a matter of purpose, I believe.Quote:
If you had free rein to do form a group that would be effectual in preservation in Detroit, what would it be? Lay out the business plan, since you have no intentions of coming back here. I'd be interested in hearing how that shakes out.
But I get no answers from anyone here. Yet.
The tours serve a great purpose for those that know nothing of the city's heritage. These should remain for the educational value. I intend on going on maybe a couple this year, if time permits. The theatre tour interests me the most, although a tour of the ruined theatres alongside the restored would be a contrast in development in itself. Fostering outrage would be a great selling point in developing a consensus.
I was surprised in reading that the Packard plant was on PW's list of endangered sites. That, indicates a slight lack of focus IMHO. Then I actually tried to find the list of sites itself.. Impossible!
Does anyone have the 2009 list?
Found this list of PW's 2009 Most-Endangered Detroit Sites on an Urban Planet blog....posted 21 Oct 2009 by ZachariahDaMan [[URL was too long to even bother, but you can Google it!)
1. United Artist Building
2. Wurlitzer Building
3. Book Tower & Book Building
4. Wayne County Building
5. Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue
6. Baker's Keyboard Lounge
7. Michigan State Fairgrounds
8. Packard Plant
9. Woodward Avenue Presbyterian Church
10. Historic Fort Wayne
Thanks Kathleen. Posts elsewhere led me to believe that this was a more inclusive list, not merely a top 10 one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen
What I am more interested in them making available is the Detroit Historic Building Inventory which, from their website, may be interesting in scope. How this is used remains to be seen.
The link to the page is:
http://preservationwayne.org/buildings.php
OTSC had the funds they needed from other sources. How does the fact that they didn't also solicit donations on their web site mean that they're not a credible organization?Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
Hell, the DEGC doesn't solicit donations are their web site either. Does this mean that their not a credible organization?
The National Trust for Historic Preservation puts out an annual list of its top 11 most-endangered sites. So PW does the same for Detroit.
Stosh, the reason that the Packard Plant was put on the list was to show that some things are beyond the point of reasonable restoration... not that it should be restored. This very thing was brought up at the PW annual meeting.
Buildingsofdetroit... thanks for the info on the Fleur-de-lis.... kind of puts into perspective the difficulty that dealing with the city and its' demo folks, as far as allowing any form of salvagability of its' lost artistic heritage. The Madison-Lenox arch scenario all over again...
Stosh, PQZ likes to try to tweak my nose every so often with the LEGO mention... I wrote a 2,200 page collectors guide, as I am probably one of the leading experts on that fast growing collectible [[some LEGO have sold for over $4000 on EBAY).
Which by it's very inclusion on the list, shows how off base they really are on their priorities. Anybody with any sense at all knows that. Making symbolic statements is pretty useless to me. Give me a list with prioritized reasons WHY I should care, and HOW I can help? Is there any way they can do this?Quote:
Stosh, the reason that the Packard Plant was put on the list was to show that some things are beyond the point of reasonable restoration... not that it should be restored. This very thing was brought up at the PW annual meeting.
Saving archtectural elements is only worthwile if they are used in another public building. Not to be stashed away in somebody's apartment for their own private collection. at least in my book. I really cant say why they are being that way about the salvage ops, but I'd have to think there is something to be said about PQZ's theory about playing nice...Quote:
Buildingsofdetroit... thanks for the info on the Fleur-de-lis.... kind of puts into perspective the difficulty that dealing with the city and its' demo folks, as far as allowing any form of salvagability of its' lost artistic heritage. The Madison-Lenox arch scenario all over again...
Gee, you think? Who would have thought that? :pQuote:
Stosh, PQZ likes to try to tweak my nose every so often with the LEGO mention... I wrote a 2,200 page collectors guide, as I am probably one of the leading experts on that fast growing collectible [[some LEGO have sold for over $4000 on EBAY).
Packard building number 10 is an incredibly important building in architectural history. This building was architect Albert Kahn's first steel-reinforced concrete factory. It would be criminal not to have it listed on the endangered buildings list.
Which one is building 10? This one?Quote:
Originally Posted by LodgeDodger
http://industryinform.files.wordpres...-packard-b.jpg
While we were on the subject I figure you would enjoy a photo of building construction at the Packard plant from 1910.
Attachment 5389
I'm tired of hearing PW and Preservationists slammed for accomplishing nothing more than tours. First of all the majority of "preservationists" are volunteers, not paid staffers like some former Detroit residents on this board.
PW was responsible for the loft forums in the 90's together with the GDP that helped educate hundreds of local developers, bankers, architects, realtors, city officials [[when they bothered to come) and others on preservation successes in other cities, funding sources, tax credits and many other issues. PW brought the mayors of places like Charleston, Milwaukee, leaders from Denver Lodo, Cleveland, non profit developers like Artspace from Minn to speak to what turned into great crowds and a community of people who then did developments like Joel landy, Bob Slattery, Ric Guyer, Dave Dirita, JC Cataldo, Colin Hubbell and many others.
Many preservationists designated local historic districts like the Park Ave Historic District back in 1996 that made the renovations of buildings like the Kales possible.. Preservationists created the 1970 historic districts bill, the 1999 tax credit bill and recent 2008 enhancements. Without these, the tax credits that have made nearly all of the renovations possible wouldn't exist.
All accomplished by volunteers and staffs you can count on one hand. Many of these people got nothing in return for their time and effort, and many left town for greener, easier places to live. These were typically the same young, educated, people the city wants to attract.
Stop bashing the preservationists. They are the 20 - 35 year olds who are the future of the city.
Some are a few years older. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by McIPor
Nice pictures, Stosh. I don't believe that is building #10.
The endangered list? Those are sites suggested to PW. It began as a list compiled by surveying a number of businesses, organizations, and residents. It's not a PW "list of endangered sites".
I'm through with those who wish to bash PW. Thank you for your comments, Mc.
I'm a tour guide. I know the folks at PW. They're an honest, hard-working bunch. It's a pretty damned sad day when an organization and its volunteers are attacked by someone with an ulterior motive.
Thanks for the specifics on the Loft Development Workshops MclPor!
Stosh, as for those Fleur De Lis that were on top of the Lafayette Building that no one was able to obtain... let me give you a background on architectural reuse...
Had you ever attended one of our Downtown Theatre Tours, you would have eventually gotten to the Gem/Century theatres. The owner of the attached theatres is named Chuck Forbes [[the figurative patron saint of the Detroit preservation community). Mr. Forbes also formerly owned the downtown YMCA and YWCA... which were about 13 stories [[or thereabouts) and were a block away from each other. They were taken from Mr. Forbes via Eminent Domain in order to build Comerica Park. But Mr. Forbes got a nice chunk of change for them, and stripped off many architectural details from these early 20th century buildings.
When he had the Gem/Century theatres moved 1,800 ft. [[so they would be out of the stadia footprint), he remodeled them with many of the architectural details from the 2 Y's. He took the balastrade from one of the building tops, and made an enclosure in front of his theatres out of it. He took other architectural details and incorporated them into his theatre forecourt. He took Pewabic Pottery tiles that lined one of the Y's swimming pool, and incorporated them into part of the interior of Century Theatre.
OK... now back to the Fleur-de-lis that lined the top of the Lafayette Building. That symbol is synonymous with French royalty... the same royalty that had Cadillac found French Detroit in 1701.
Salvaging those Fleur-de-lis could have added a nice historic and symbolic addition to Detroit to show off our French royal roots. They could have used them in landscaping the Riverwalk, or used them as an attractive feature added to the perimeter of Campus Martius... or any of hundreds of uses. Heck even if they were put into storage, it would have been preferable to having them pounded to rubble when the Lafayette Buildings walls came crashing down.
But because of the extreme difficulty and red tape in trying to salvage anything in Detroit [[as buildingsofdetroit and the other 25 folks who inquired with Adamo Demo can verify, and the failed attempt at getting the Madison-Lenox arch)... is there any wonder why the preservation community can't do salvage here as some complain??
Yep, that's what happens when you have the money and will to do something.
Things get done. Unfortunately that combination is severely lacking in the city these days.
And I think that the implication that I am basicallly clueless about the Gem is rather offputting. I've been to both for plays and other events, and the information on both the Gem and Century is common knowledge, and has been on their websites since the move.
Those architectural elements are gone. You should have hired some of the urban explorers to get them before the demo. It's really just simple concrete mold work, after all. Simple to replicate. Anybody with basic skills can churn out concrete elements by the ton using gang molds. Just a little patience and money incorporating into buildings. Probably even easier if you are using resins. Lighter and gives the same look.
Edit: And that reminds me of something... why is it that preservation groups dont get somebody on scaffolding and get some of the architectural elements on buildings now in molds for future preservation or sale? The Freep building has some outrageous stuff on the building. Now that's a worthwhile thing for them to do, and plaster, resin or concrete reproductions could be done to raise funds for actual restoration work.
Now that brings me back to the National Theatre. You say that was cleared out by PW a number of years ago.. how much is it up for sale for now?
Stosh, my appologies about the Gem/Century comments. We have so many people here posting from around the country [[and world), that since I don't know you.... well lets just say I could have phrased that much more diplomatically. Sorry.
As for the National Theatre... although it is city owned, some group does have [[or had) an option on it. But I can't find any details.
Although the facade of the National did have facade clean-up done with the SuperBowl downtown building cleanup fund, the interior plasterwork is in sad shape. The city did have the sense to put a new roof on the National long ago... but sadly that was after the plasterwork in the auditorium deteriorated [[water damage) and it is probably in worse condition than the United Artists. I'm not blaming the city on the condition of the interior.... it may have been abandoned before the city took title.
DEGC has a website. Something more than OTSC was able to do in this godaddy.com era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Right. Who cares about whether or not a group has money or a viable plan to redevelop a historic site?
It's all about their web site.
Will the theater tour include the National?
OTSC certainly had a good plan and idea. They certainly did not have adequate cash in hand to implement the plan. Promises of funding, promises of federal earmarks are one thing. Not having the wherewithal to get a basic website up and running within 18 months when folks are clamoring for a way to donate money is a strong indicaotr of the capacity of the organization to execute the plan and actually secure the promised funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
As usual Frank, you want to make cutesy comments that ignore the reality.
Yes, OTSC had a decent plan - but the execution and capacity were sorely lacking. As a person who loves preservation and agitates for it, I liked their plan. As a professional with an advanced degree in urban planning, and as a professional who actually did some of the heavy lifting on the Book Cadillac - as opposed to say selling t-shirts - their execution and capacity were sorely sorely lacking.
Yes, the EDC was not as supportive of the plan as it could have been, but to pin the failure of the OTSC on the EDC is to completely and willfully ignore the serious organizational issues that the OTSC had.
You can gnash and wail all you want about preservation, and who is doing what, and who isn't, but I have observed that here in America, if a historic structure stands in the way of a developer or corporate interest making money, it's a goner. You can make all of the court-ordered stays of demolition you want, they will just start at night and get enough done so that "it has to come down now, it's unsafe" and no one will be dragged into court to answer for their actions.
If you want to save a building, figure out a way for it to pay for itself, beyond any aesthetic value the building may hold for "building huggers".
Once the costs of restoration and rehabilitation are spent and the building is finished the fixed costs of keeping it up and heating it [[and taxes and cleaning and so on) are always going to be there, and that requires monthly cash flow.
No the tour does not. Just the Grand Circus Park theatres. The National is quite a distance from the other theatres, and if I am not mistaken, it has no electricity turned on inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by exmotowner
To add the National to an already exhausting tour [[at 4 1/2 hours) would likely extend the tour to over 5 hours. Your feet will probably be sore enough after the existing tour [[especially if it's a hot and muggy August day).
Not having the website accept online donations is unfortunate, but it didn't stop the conservancy from soliciting or accepting donations. This seems like a bit of red herring. I don't know of any major redevelopment initiative where the difference was made on paypal. having an up to the minute website seems like something even the degc struggles with... http://www.degc.org/current-projects.aspx. the tiger stadium demo...especially how the end was handled...seemed from the outside to be especially vindictive and political, and in the end a very detroit response. the result = less city.
I was just wondering if anyone can tell me what is being done with the donations to the OTSC now that the development is no more? Seems to me that if they were still an ongoing concern, they would be filing statements with the State DLEG, since their inception in 2007. Nothing since the articles of incorporation were filed. Curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by detourdetroit
I'm the one ignoring reality?Quote:
Originally Posted by PQZ
The federal earmark passed both Houses of Congress and was signed into law by the President.
And that's only a mere promise?
And of course that earmark quickly became a hot button issue around the country for being notorious pork.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
I wonder what happened?
And an earmark IS a promise. An appropriation is what was needed.
Yes, there are people who don't like earmarks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stosh
Yes, the OTSC earmark was one of the ones that they complained about in 2009.
What's your point?
Wow! And I thought Peter was off-base with his comment about the OTSC not being a legitimate organization because of their web site or lack thereof.Quote:
And an earmark IS a promise. An appropriation is what was needed.
An earmark is a type of appropriation; one that circumvents the normal, competitive process of allocating funds within the federal budget.
http://earmarks.omb.gov/earmarks_definition.html