Red Light District in Detroit

The whole Pugh v. Winans thing got me thinking. Why doesn't Detroit just build a red light district.

Legalized pot and prostitution in a small area heavily taxed, regulated and policed.

The beauty of it being in Detroit would be that there is plenty of places to start it that aren't in peoples backyards.

This would be a great way to free up some police who are doing useless nickle and dime pot busts, increase city revenue, and attract people to the city.

Casinos, restaurants, and better hotels would probably see a nice increase in business as well.

I know there are laws and morals to be considered but really if it's not your think just don't go. Besides if there weren't places like these ministers and activists would have to start addressing the real problems in society.

It's an excellent idea and has proven to work in other places. It's out of sight for those who don't want to see X-rated facilities near their homes, grocery stores, churches, retail areas, etc. and it's concentrated geographically so it's easier to police. Problem is, which politician is gonna have the guts to add to their platform a "pro-red light district" agenda?

I agree with the idea, but the Detroit preachers already have their holier-than-thou undies in a wad about strip joints, you know they won't support a red light district. They strongly opposed casino referenda in the 1980's, you know something like this would go over like a turd in a punchbowl.

Lafayette, I agree, I don't see any politician proposing anything like this.

You're probably right, kryptonite. What would be ironic about their opposition, though, would be that a red light district would actually mean better treatment of those they say they're concerned about and move what exists already to a different location. No one's saying add more strips clubs, sleaze joints, etc., although that could happen. But that wouldn't be the goals, which are a safer, more policed sleaze industry and one that's kept away from non-X rated areas of the city. A person of God should, in theory, support that.

What I don't understand and never will about politicians is that it's a secret ballot.

I would for once like to see someone running for office come out and support something like legalizing pot and remind people that it is a secret ballot.

You don't have to tell anyone who you are voting for. When that person does get elected you can just say " I don't know who voted for him but it sure wasn't me. Wanna go smoke?"

You're right about voting being secret, neighbor. But public figures will always be pressured to take a stance on the issue publicly.

In Detroit there is very little separation of church and state. The churches bring out the vote so they have a lot of power. Remember, it was the churches that was partially responsible for holding up the casino's for so many years. Its wasn't until the articles about how well Windsor was doing that finally made the preachers drop their insane opposition and broke the gridlock. Pugh showed a lot of courage in going head to head with Rev. Winans, since most Detroit politicans would not have challenged him in that way. As black Detroiters we need to focus more on not mixing church and state. We should hold our politicans to a standard and our preachers another more appropriate standard.

Plum Street?

We got a lot of vacant land in Detroit, so finding a spot shouldn't be a problem.
Problem is the NIMBY's or the NIMNearbyBY or NIMPotentialBY all come out in force and make the process much more difficult than it should be.

My suggestion for a location for a red light district would be somewhere that isn't thriving right now. We don't want to tear down one of the few thriving areas of the city for a new development [[or, even worse, for a new development that never happened - see: Bricktown). Not to say Plum street is thriving, just saying it's a good approach to keep in mind overall. There are plenty of unused areas of the city that need development.

you're right, firstandten.

Years ago, I had one of those mad genius moments and suggested to others that Detroit should annex Highland Park and turn it into Detroit's entertainment zone. Perfect location, middle of the city.


http://r8rbob.workpress.com

Since the laws against prostitution and marijuana use are state laws, how do you propose getting the state legislature to pass, and a governor to sign, their repeal?

I'd be happy to start a district even with what's legal at this point - strip clubs. That would go a long way to getting sleaze out of residential areas. They're the most visible eye sores.

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Originally Posted by neighbor

The whole Pugh v. Winans thing got me thinking. Why doesn't Detroit just build a red light district.

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Been listening to Valenti & Foster on 97.1 The Ticket? This was a topic on Thursday afternoon's show.

In the late 1800's and early 1900's hundreds Griswold was the red light district.

I wonder why these pastors conveniently forget that Jesus sought out and embraced prostitutes or, as they called them, the lowly, the scorned, the most despised among us, the most hated and disenfranchised at the bottom of society. You'd think they'd want to do anything they can to make their lives better, even if it means a small step without actually getting them out of prostitution or whatever their vice is.

Although, I have to make sure I make the distinction between prostitutes [[illegal) and strip club workers [[generally legal, within certain parameters). For the red light district, at least the most achievable start, I'm talking about currently legal sleaze. The prostitute reference was just the attitude most of the most vocal, Baptist preachers have against all those associated with any vice.

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Originally Posted by lafayette

I wonder why these pastors conveniently forget that Jesus sought out and embraced prostitutes or, as they called them, the lowly, the scorned, the most despised among us, the most hated and disenfranchised at the bottom of society. You'd think they'd want to do anything they can to make their lives better, even if it means a small step without actually getting them out of prostitution or whatever their vice is.

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Haha. That's a good point, lafayette. Then again, these people are into the "old-time religion," which involves a lot of shaming and railing and such. In religions like this, there's usually a great deal of hypocrisy and stupidity. [[If you want to see pastors embrace prostitutes, drop in at the Cabana Motel. ;) )

Good one about the Cabana, detroitnerd. thanks for the laugh! Yeah, so much of that religious view is about damning, judging, fingerpointing, and stressing fear rather than mercy and compassion.

Ive been calling for a red light district in Detroit for years now on this site. Wasn't so popular an idea 4 or 5 yrs ago. Glad to see more ppl are jumping on board. Its just common sense that you cant stop supply and demand, you can try and steer it but you cant stop it.

Detroit would be the perfect testing grounds but I hear Za Za Gabores husband is running for governor of CA. and proposing a similar idea. Interested to see how that goes.

As long as we're dreaming, I propose Chene between I-94 and Forest, I would love to see that area come back. As long as we're legalizing the minor stuff can we decrim the cocaine and heroin, Im sick of hearing about the prison system becoming big business in the area of storing people because of mandatory minimums.

Anyone remember Mayor Kurt Schmoke? he tried to steer Baltimore in a similar direction of legalization but wound up shooting himself in the foot with that idea, but that was many years ago.

No, I don't remember the Baltimore mayor. What happened?

Lafayette, as I remember he was demonized quite a bit for his anti drug war stance and it really hurt him politically, maybe I was wrong. Maybe it didnt hurt him as much as I thought it did.

This is from Wiki.
On November 3, 1987, he was elected mayor. As mayor, he became known for his opposition to the "War on Drugs" and his stance in favor of drug decriminalization. Schmoke initiated programs in housing, education, public health and economic development. During his three terms in office Schmoke faced very serious challenges, including poor quality schools, drug addiction, and violent crime. Some of his controversial positions included advocating the decriminalization of drug use, and employing Nation of Islam security guards in a housing project. His achievements included improving the environment of low-income housing projects, a needle-exchange program for addicts, keeping the tax rate stable, and attracting the Ravens football team to Baltimore.[8] In 1992, President George H. W. Bush awarded him the national Literacy Award for his efforts to promote adult literacy, and in 1994 President Bill Clinton cited Baltimore's programs to improve public housing and enhance community economic development and named Baltimore one of six cities to receive Empowerment Zone designation.

On a side note about Schmoke, in the TV series The Wire, the chief of police starts a red light district of his own in Baltimore called Hamsterdam. This character was based on Schmoke. The red light district didn't work so well on the series for obvious reasons if youve seen the show, GREAT show btw.




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Sounds like a wonderful, progressive mayor. No wonder folks hated him.

can you do something like that in a city, without it being legal in the state? Just wondering. I think its a great idea. Not everyone in Amsterdam is walking around stoned out of their minds and no hookers in the street. One way to bring more people in, but good luck getting this through city clownsil. Its common sense that people are doing anyway and will continue to do so. As long as theres been people, there been prostitution and god knows how long pot as been around. Neither are going anywhere so might as well get some taxes off of it.

I would guess if any vices in a red light district were illegal even if only for one jurisdiction, despite thriving financially, the cops would gleefully shut it down. Look at how they all self righteously proclaim how they'll ignore the will of state voters and aggressively go after anyone selling medical marijuana in their local municipalities because, under city ordinance, they can't sell there. No matter what statewide voters approved, which is a crock. They love to cherry pick enforcement when it's a progressive activity they just don't like, regardless of what state voters approved.

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Originally Posted by lafayette

The prostitute reference was just the attitude most of the most vocal, Baptist preachers have against all those associated with any vice.

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ha! I was raised in a VERY strict Baptist home and could not wait until I was old enough to leave the Baptist church permanently. And I did just that. It was hell, they dictate every thing you can cannot do and condemn anyone that participates in their multitude of forbidden activities. And you are constantly being threatened with condemnation to hell for engaging in anything they disallow. And Baptists are not the only church or religion attempting to legislate morality, all fundamentalist religions attempt to control behavior.

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Originally Posted by Django

Lafayette, as I remember he was demonized quite a bit for his anti drug war stance and it really hurt him politically, maybe I was wrong. Maybe it didnt hurt him as much as I thought it did.

This is from Wiki.
On November 3, 1987, he was elected mayor. As mayor, he became known for his opposition to the "War on Drugs" and his stance in favor of drug decriminalization. Schmoke initiated programs in housing, education, public health and economic development. During his three terms in office Schmoke faced very serious challenges, including poor quality schools, drug addiction, and violent crime. Some of his controversial positions included advocating the decriminalization of drug use, and employing Nation of Islam security guards in a housing project. His achievements included improving the environment of low-income housing projects, a needle-exchange program for addicts, keeping the tax rate stable, and attracting the Ravens football team to Baltimore.[8] In 1992, President George H. W. Bush awarded him the national Literacy Award for his efforts to promote adult literacy, and in 1994 President Bill Clinton cited Baltimore's programs to improve public housing and enhance community economic development and named Baltimore one of six cities to receive Empowerment Zone designation.

On a side note about Schmoke, in the TV series The Wire, the chief of police starts a red light district of his own in Baltimore called Hamsterdam. This character was based on Schmoke. The red light district didn't work so well on the series for obvious reasons if youve seen the show, GREAT show btw.

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Hamsterdam was the first thing I thought of when I spotted this thread. Btw, Django, "The Wire" isn't just a great show, it's the BESTSHOWEVER!

Kryptonite, absolutely Baptists aren't the only ones to focus on condemnation and burning in hell. I only mentioned them because we're talking about Detroit's most vocal Bible belters, and there seem to be a lot of Baptists in that group.

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Originally Posted by lafayette

Kryptonite, absolutely Baptists aren't the only ones to focus on condemnation and burning in hell. I only mentioned them because we're talking about Detroit's most vocal Bible belters, and there seem to be a lot of Baptists in that group.

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Oh I understand your point for sure. I'm just getting a jab in at my former church. But to be fair to Baptists I will fully agree that other churches and religions try to pull the same BS. Otherwise we could turn into a place like Iran.

Yes, and maybe even more accurately, we could turn into burqha-central: Afghanistan. Iran may have its major cultural faults, not to mention other faults, but compared to Afghanistan a surprisingly large part of its population is urban, somewhat "modern" in a western sense and educated. Afghanistan, where the culture is primarily agrarian and [[most imporant) tribal, is where the worst of the fundamentalist religious dogma is the most repressive to the most people, especially women, compared to Iran.

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Originally Posted by lafayette

Yes, and maybe even more accurately, we could turn into burqha-central: Afghanistan. Iran may have its major cultural faults, not to mention other faults, but compared to Afghanistan a surprisingly large part of its population is urban, somewhat "modern" in a western sense and educated. Afghanistan, where the culture is primarily agrarian and [[most imporant) tribal, is where the worst of the fundamentalist religious dogma is the most repressive to the most people, especially women, compared to Iran.

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Don't forget, it wasn't uncommon for women to wear miniskirts in Tehran in the 1960s. But U.S. efforts to prop up brutal strongmen and depose populists meant that, increasingly, Iranians sought help from the only people who wouldn't break their promises: the clerics. As usual, the political fight is given a religious face.

Rightee-o, detroitnerd. So many people think Iran is exclusively a tribal backwater. Not so.

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Originally Posted by lafayette

Rightee-o, detroitnerd. So many people think Iran is exclusively a tribal backwater. Not so.

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The Iranian students when I was in college were known for expensive fashions, men and women. I have seen a brief news program on how fashionable women were even in Kabul, Afghanistan. It's the freak fundamentalists in Iran that began exporting the dress codes and behavior codes, etc. to other Islamic countries. Middle Eastern countries were much more open and progressive until the 1980's.

All the more reason to tell the megachurch preachers in Detroit to F-off and leave the strip clubs alone. And I for one have not even been inside one but to me they have a right to exist in a free society.

Would be nice to see another state face the oldest profession as one that's here to stay! Help control STD's, generate tax money. Puritan attitudes in many hypocrites, stand in the way. More Jeffersonian thinkers are needed in this country! Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
As far as reefer, a miracle plant of many uses that should be exploited.
Just as mentioned by many, there is more than enough areas to convert to adult playgrounds out there.

Agreed, tjlorton.

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Originally Posted by neighbor

The whole Pugh v. Winans thing got me thinking. Why doesn't Detroit just build a red light district.

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I was thinking the same thing last night.

I was thinking that if a handful of strip club owners got together, they could all move the the same block or corner in downtown, perhaps in conjunction with some change in zoning that made it harder to open the businesses in the rest of the city. At the same time, a few "bookstores" and/or "toystores" could round it out to make a real district.

This is where I decided it would fit best:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...,0.004823&z=18

A half block or so in every direction from the corner of Brush and Macomb. It is just out of the way enough from the more corporate and family areas of downtown, but still in the thick of it [[4 blocks from the stadia, 2 blocks from the Greektown casino).

The only issue I see with the location is that the People Mover goes right over it, the signage and windows in the area would need to be cognizant of the fact that families ride the DPM. But, that might be a blessing in disguise, it will have to be classy enough not not mar downtown, but will still be very visible.

A second location would be the corner of Brush and Lafayette, where Bouzoukis is now. I figured that was too close to the county building and Campus Martius, but now I'm starting to think it is isn't such a bad spot.

I think cass corridor would be a great red light district??? any other suggestions out there?

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Originally Posted by jsmyers

This is where I decided it would fit best:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...,0.004823&z=18

A half block or so in every direction from the corner of Brush and Macomb. It is just out of the way enough from the more corporate and family areas of downtown, but still in the thick of it [[4 blocks from the stadia, 2 blocks from the Greektown casino).

The only issue I see with the location is that the People Mover goes right over it, the signage and windows in the area would need to be cognizant of the fact that families ride the DPM. But, that might be a blessing in disguise, it will have to be classy enough not not mar downtown, but will still be very visible.

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Wow, this is a truly great spot for a Red Light district. Right in front of the Police Station, mind you, and the People Mover doesn't stop there, so no worries about weirdos on the train [[like that is ever NOT the case anyway...) Also it's a very underdeveloped block on a narrow, urban street, with an elevated rail line running through it. That all adds up to a lot of character for the district. I am thinking of the neon-lighted, cloistered streets in Blade Runner... except real and in Detroit.

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Originally Posted by LodgeDodger

Hamsterdam was the first thing I thought of when I spotted this thread. Btw, Django, "The Wire" isn't just a great show, it's the BESTSHOWEVER!

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We are in agreement. The Wire was one of the great shows ever

Best seasons
1) Season 1 [[Season 4 should be no.1 but s1 is no. 1)
2) Season 4 [[Four names: Mike, Namond, Dookie and Randy)
3) Season 3 [[Hamsterdam)
4) Season 2 [[The Docks)
5) Season 5 [[Because it was the end of things)

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Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

Wow, this is a truly great spot for a Red Light district. Right in front of the Police Station, mind you,

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I forgot about the police. That factored into my thinking too. I was originally thinking the corner of Beubien and Clinton, but I realized that having inmates looking out at a row of strip clubs 24/7 might not be the best help for rehabilitation.

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Originally Posted by jsmyers

I was thinking the same thing last night.

I was thinking that if a handful of strip club owners got together, they could all move the the same block or corner in downtown, perhaps in conjunction with some change in zoning that made it harder to open the businesses in the rest of the city. At the same time, a few "bookstores" and/or "toystores" could round it out to make a real district.

This is where I decided it would fit best:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...,0.004823&z=18

A half block or so in every direction from the corner of Brush and Macomb. It is just out of the way enough from the more corporate and family areas of downtown, but still in the thick of it [[4 blocks from the stadia, 2 blocks from the Greektown casino).

The only issue I see with the location is that the People Mover goes right over it, the signage and windows in the area would need to be cognizant of the fact that families ride the DPM. But, that might be a blessing in disguise, it will have to be classy enough not not mar downtown, but will still be very visible.

A second location would be the corner of Brush and Lafayette, where Bouzoukis is now. I figured that was too close to the county building and Campus Martius, but now I'm starting to think it is isn't such a bad spot.

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A red light district in that location, 100 yards from Historic Second Baptist Church on Monroe Street, would be a bad idea. A red light district in and near the CBD would be a bad idea. Bouzouki on Lafayette is enough. Someone mentioned having a red light district on Chene Street near I-94. That would be a more plausible location, but still not the greatest. The CBD shouldn't even be considered since the goal of the CBD has been to bring in more residents to live there. No one is going to want to live in the CBD if there is a red light district close by.Any talk of a red light district should focus on an area that was once industrial but is now abandoned or mostly abandoned. Areas like: John R between State Fair and 8 Mile [[I think there is already a strip club along that stretch); Russell between Grand Blvd. and Warren; Clark between Michigan and Toledo; and Bellevue/Barfait between Lafayette and Gratiot.

Yes, there's no need to worry about walking distance proximity to anything. The majority of strip club customers in Detroit are suburbanites and, therefore, have cars. They'll drive to the district.

I second the Cass Corridor. It is conveniently placed between Downtown, and Wayne State/ Midtown. Lots of space, vacant land, easy access to Woodward, and the highways.

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Originally Posted by royce

A red light district in that location, 100 yards from Historic Second Baptist Church on Monroe Street, would be a bad idea. A red light district in and near the CBD would be a bad idea. Bouzouki on Lafayette is enough. Someone mentioned having a red light district on Chene Street near I-94. That would be a more plausible location, but still not the greatest. The CBD shouldn't even be considered since the goal of the CBD has been to bring in more residents to live there. No one is going to want to live in the CBD if there is a red light district close by.Any talk of a red light district should focus on an area that was once industrial but is now abandoned or mostly abandoned. Areas like: John R between State Fair and 8 Mile [[I think there is already a strip club along that stretch); Russell between Grand Blvd. and Warren; Clark between Michigan and Toledo; and Bellevue/Barfait between Lafayette and Gratiot.

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I disagree. I think Macomb Street would be a great location. One, it is Downtown, meaning everyone will know how to get there. Two, located right next to the police station. You're ideas are in desolate areas, and something like a red light district won't exactly revive those areas. It would just make them more dangerous. Having it Downtown wouldn't really affect the safety of the rest of Downtown.

I do, however, like your suggestion of using abadoned industrial areas. But I think Milwaukee Street area, from the Lodge [[or woodward) to 75 would be great. This way it would be served by rail [[starting 2013), where unfortunately your ideas wouldn't, at least for a little.

I disagree that there should be a red light district downtown.
First, while downtown is no Manhattan, it already has significant economic activity and density. Downtown only comprises 1 square mile of a 130-some square mile city that is 1/3 vacant. It is those other areas that are a drain on the city's resources and have infrastructure and structures that are not being utilized.
Everyone may know how to get downtown[[actually, they don't), but that is a good reason NOT to have a Red Light district there. Downtown is somewhat family friendly by Detroit standards, with the stadiums and if you count midtown, the Museums. The Red Light district downtown would scare off a lot of families. Not to mention, downtown does have a few thousand residents, many of them elderly, who won't like the Red Light District. NIMBY.
I like the Chene Street suggestion. There would be very few NIMBYs if only because there are so few backyards left there. Chene street is almost entirely vacant, except for a gas station or two. It is still right off the freeway and close enough to downtown. Not necessarily Chene street - but any vacant commercial strip with few nearby residences. There are enough areas like that. Now THAT would be rightsizing Detroit.
Personally I think a Red Light District could turn Detroit around. Make it the biggest in the world. For Christ sake, it's not like Detroit has a reputation for morals and piety and it really never has. It is a gritty rust belt city with a badass reputation - and it could capitalize on that.

Actually Chene already is the unofficial red light district. Would love it to become the official though.

This kind of connects with the fire thread on Detroit Connections.

The guys over @ 97.FM were suggesting of putting the Detroit Red-Light District somewhere on the riverfront east of the Recen where all of the property that was once slated for the Detroit Casino District. The other place would the piece of been south of Highland Pack and west of Hamtramck. Again, this is coming from Terry Foster and Mike V.

Rivertown has potential. I think the impetus behind a red light district should be to put it somewhere that has no potential otherwise.

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Originally Posted by DetroitTitan

I second the Cass Corridor. It is conveniently placed between Downtown, and Wayne State/ Midtown. Lots of space, vacant land, easy access to Woodward, and the highways.

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We've been there and done that. As I showed in another thread, the city set up the Corridor as the red light district in the early '60s. It worked like a charm, although it wasn't much fun growing up in the midst of it. [[Well, I take that back -- it was lots of fun, actually. But I don't think I'd want to raise my kids there.)

That's why any red light district set up by the city would have to be free of honest, hardworking residents. Since there are empty swaths of land througout Detroit, such an area shouldn't be too hard to find.

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Originally Posted by dookie joe

We've been there and done that. As I showed in another thread, the city set up the Corridor as the red light district in the early '60s. It worked like a charm, although it wasn't much fun growing up in the midst of it. [[Well, I take that back -- it was lots of fun, actually. But I don't think I'd want to raise my kids there.)

That's why any red light district set up by the city would have to be free of honest, hardworking residents. Since there are empty swaths of land througout Detroit, such an area shouldn't be too hard to find.

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The city set up the Skid Row in Cass Corridor.

A real Red Light district would have fine homes with a reception area and bar on the first floor where the customer could have a drink while he makes his selction from the variety offered by the house. The girls would have nice rooms upstairs. The district could have nice walls around it and the cops would make extensive use of wood shampoos to keep the derelicts, pimps, and muggers away from the customers.

Maybe a Red Light district could save Brush Park.

Kercheval from the the Chrysler plant to Alter. That way the Grosse Pointes can share in the fun!!!!
;)

For what it's worth, perhaps this could be set up in the strip between the City County building and Wayne County's Guardian.
Most of the [[figurative) pimps and ho's hang out there anyway. :eek:

I think the Corridor has too much potential on its own. Its been slowly getting better and better down there since I first moved there 20 years ago.

Im still pluggin Chene South of I-94.

Theres a new group in California trying to get a bill passed to legalize all drugs. Its touted by many Judges and Law enforcement figures. LEAP http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. I heard on NPR a former Judge involved with LEAP debate a police officer involved in promoting the current drug war. It was pretty frustrating listening to prohibitionist bring up his hand picked statistics every time he was backed into a corner. The judge was way too nice when he could have put him in his proper place.

Im thankful more and more cops and judges are seeing prohibition for what it is and all the harm its done.

I hope you all will check out LEAP and forward the link to friends. I believe if you buy something on Amazon.com through the LEAP site a donation will be made to LEAP.

I wonder why Rev. Winans took the time out to say that Pugh is "not a king...[[but) an elected official".. why was that even necessary? Rev. Andre Spivey was interviewed by the Mich. Chronicle on the controversy and how he sees his role on council- http://tinyurl.com/yaargzb
I wonder, if/when Detroit council by districts is adopted and implemented, would that help or harm efforts to try and create an adult-entertainment district? Potentially, I could see certain members of council, if the district looks to be located in their area, under pressure by the hyper-moralist crowd..