As expected, the Court of Appeals upholds the original ruling on the Mayor's veto.
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As expected, the Court of Appeals upholds the original ruling on the Mayor's veto.
All might not be lost, but I have my doubts now. A lot is at stake, and maybe someone can pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I fear that this might be a serious blow to a regional approach to the problems of Detroit and the metropolitan area, though. If Ms Conyers and Mr Patterson can remain cool the negotiations might continue. If either one wants to destroy this opportunity, it is DOA.
Chicago, or possibly Oakland County, will be glad to take conventions away from the city.
I suspect all is lost. Lansing is tired of this and has other things to deal with. Macomb and Oakland counties have been very explicit that they do not want to change the deal in the way Ms. Conyers has said she wants [[preferential use of Detroit workers).
Cobo will continue to crumble, and the auto show will either wither away and die or else move, to where God only knows. The City had the chance to get out from under this albatross, and passed on it.
If anyone wants me, I'll be banging my head against the wall.
I've expressed this opinion before, but I'll say it again. GM is on the verge of bankruptcy, Fiat is saying they may walk away from Chrysler, Obama has said Chrysler needs to either join with Fiat or go out of business, Ford may actually survive, the import companies are all struggling and said that if one or two of the big 3 go under, they may not be able to survive after the ripple effect hits their suppliers. That's the doomsday outlook.
From the optimistic perspective, GM will survive...but gone will be Hummer, Saturn, Saab for sure. Possibly some of all of the GMC/Pontiac/Buick divisions will be gone. It is very possible that Chevy, Cadillac, and one other make could be the only survivors at the General.
Chrysler....a bit harder to be optimistic, as they are truly lagging behind GM/Ford trying to play catch up. If they are to survive, it will be as a much, much smaller company.
I can't say I know much of anything about he import companies, but from the little I've read, an alliance or merger between some of the big players may be in order.
Any way you look at it, the auto show will not be at the level it has been in previous years for awhile. I'm not sure people realize the magnitude of shit that is about to hit the fan. Many thousands of more jobs will be lost if a leaner auto industry survives, and if they don't survive, that number lost will be 10 fold.
So if a larger Cobo doesn't happen, should we really lose sleep over it?
Looks like 2010 will be the FINAL Auto Show in Detroit.
That's a f***king shame that the city turn down all these Cobo expansion deals.
Right now, Monica Conyers is dancing around butt-naked about her veto block victory.
Thanks a lot "hood rat"!!!!
So Monica has saved the Detroit 'jewel' from the evil suburbs. Maybe she's thinking about offering it to the film companies as the Detroit derelict after the train station is demolished.... Monica needs to learn that "Give me your money, and go away" doesn't fly anymore.
Works with her "husband"Quote:
Originally Posted by Olddetroiter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersport
Excellent points, I guess the Rock Financial Center in Novi will be large enough to hold the show after doomsday hits.
I do the rock! [[It's stimulating!)
Yeah, we heard THLBP [["The Honorable...") talking on the news tonight about hosting the Auto Show in one of the Oakburbs. I suppose right now there are really only three alternatives, and his is the least bad of the three.
To my thinking the Auto Show has one of the following three fates, and very soon:
1. Dies completely. There are other auto shows, so fuck it, say the powers that be; plus the companies are on the skids, etc.
2. Goes somewhere way far off: Chicago, LA, what the hell, Las Vegas, Toronto, Abu Dhabi, wherever. Leaves the region completely.
3. Goes suburban, since there's no facility in Detroit keeping up, and it's possible some suburban show palace could rise from the ashes. Novi, site of the old Silverdome, somewhere in Macomb, heck, even downriver though nobody mentions that. Aerotropolis convention center, anyone?
By the way, this needs to be investigated: Who in Lansing was so far out of their motherfucking mind as to think it was a good idea to give the people who live on City Council Planet a say in this? Can we track that down to some specific legislator, who then needs to be punished in some ironically appropriate way?
[[By the way, the Prof does not throw around variants of former Mayor Young's favorite twelve-letter compound expletive indiscriminately. Search old posts and verify for yourself. It was justified herein, hethinks. The phrase "Mayor Young's favorite twelve-letter compound expletive" comes from an old Detroit News article, verbatim, incidentally. If there's ever a journalism class called "how to print the word 'motherfucker' indirectly in a family newspaper", I'm qualified to lead a seminar therein.)
I could be way off base, but I think there is a question Detroit might want to ask itself: “Would moving the NAIAS to the suburbs really hurt Detroit?” To answer that question, I think you need to separate the impact to the facility and the City’s general fund from the economic impact to the region itself.
The legislation for the hotel/liquor tax would need to be revisited if OC wants to use their funds for a facility in OC. Perhaps Macomb wants to cast their lot with OC. There is no reason for Wayne County to do the same, so that leaves the hotel/liquor tax from Detroit and Wayne County for Cobo. If NAIAS goes to OC, there is no reason to expand Cobo, the City and Wayne County would only need to “improve” the existing facility to make it more attractive to other events. That has to be considerably less than expansion costs.
So, OC could take over the expense of the NAIAS. OC could provide the infrastructure and municipal services. The show would still take place and money would still be spent across the region, including in Detroit. Depending on where in OC the show is moved, Detroit’s hotel space would still be used, unless OC and Macomb have enough hotel space to satisfy all needs. People would still want to visit Downtown Detroit for casinos and restaurants. Vendors across the region could still bid on the contracts because Patterson has already said he will accept no set-asides or favoritism for any city or county. The breakdown of the impact to the region should be fairly close to what it is now, shouldn’t it?
As far as the facility goes, I would wonder how much revenue the show generates for the facility itself and how that compares to the expenditures the City incurs during the show. The show occupies Cobo for what, 3 weeks out of the year if you include setup and breakdown? That means the City has to try and attract events for the 49 other weeks anyway, in order for the facility not to sit empty and in order for hotel rooms to be occupied. Maybe Detroit can do a better job of that if it isn’t focusing so much of its hopes and energy on one show.
Maybe it’s not Cobo that the City shouldn’t try to hold on to. Maybe it’s the NAIAS the City shouldn’t try to hold on to. Maybe Detroit has been subsidizing a show that benefits others more than the City itself. And who knows, maybe the way things are now, with auto companies scaling back expenditures for the foreseeable future, an improved versus expanded facility is all that is needed to keep the show in Detroit.
Maybe it really is time for someone else to have a turn. Unless people are afraid that a suburban auto show isn’t viable???
I’m sure there are weaknesses in this argument. So, have at it.
Great posts by the Professor and Locke. I just can't help but think Freeman, Mildred and the staunch backers of the City Council's plan are now in a room saying "oh shit". They pushed for this equity stake for Detroit, but forgot who was at the helm to make this happen for Detroit. Now they have their way and look at who is in charge of moving forward ....MC, BRC, MR, ATT, KC Jr., The Detroit Clergy.....Age old saying is, be careful what you ask for! I do wish them well, but as I have said before, the entertainment factor here is the best.
"As far as the facility goes, I would wonder how much revenue the show generates for the facility itself and how that compares to the expenditures the City incurs during the show. The show occupies Cobo for what, 3 weeks out of the year if you include setup and breakdown? That means the City has to try and attract events for the 49 other weeks anyway, in order for the facility not to sit empty and in order for hotel rooms to be occupied. Maybe Detroit can do a better job of that if it isn’t focusing so much of its hopes and energy on one show."
Have you ever been to a convention at Cobo that's not the auto show? I have. There's nothing that matches the Auto Show for impact. Few of those other events use anywhere near the space of the Auto Show. It's not just that the Auto Show uses Cobo for 3 weeks, it's that it's using the entire space and that it's attracting hundreds of thousands of attendees. Those are people who pay to enter and pay to park, generating revenues that no other event matches or even comes close. Pulling the auto show out of Cobo's revenue stream just makes its financial situation that much worse. The idea that it's the Auto Show that's keeping Cobo from being successful has to be one of the dumbest ideas I've heard.
"Maybe Detroit has been subsidizing a show that benefits others more than the City itself."
Feel free to provide the numbers that would float that argument.
I like your argument, lets be real, Detroit is probably at around 800 to 900 thousand people and going south fast. We would be at the mercy of one huge show and we would be spending the rest of the year trying to figure out how to get some use from the convention center. While we are at it lets tear down Cobo Arena the Pistons are never coming back and minor league basketball is not financially viable and as much as the kids love playing the city championships games there its just doesn't make economic sense anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke09
We can fix up Cobo hall not expand it on a serious basis and try to attract the conventions that will give us smaller but more consistant revenue over the course of the year. Let Pontiac have it. The silverdome needs conventions bad and I hate to see that thing standing there doing nothing.
Then after the bottom falls out of the US auto industry completely then it can be the gov't of Kentucky and Alabama's problem
The larger issue here is regionalism.
Detroit, and it's suburbs will continue to decline and the importance of the auto show will become incidental to the larger picture. That picture is the inability of Wayne & Oakland counties to co operate, and for Detroit to get off it's ass and realize a good deal and saving grace when they see it.
You voters in Detroit need to impeach these imbiciles at city hall and remove them for endangering the economic future of Detroit. And all for what? Bragging rights on negating the mayor's good sense and judgement? To score homie points among likely voters?
Cobo needs to be larger anyway to compete nationally with other trade shows, that is, if the trend toward larger shows continues. Perhaps this is all a moot point if the economy can't support larger shows going forward. This trend needs to be carefully studied.
With so many other strikes agains it, Detroit needs to support businesses like restaurants, hotels, etc. The best way to do this is to have Cobo compete with other halls.
The socially retarded city council needs to have heads roll over this. There's no other way to do it.
The budget for Cobo for this fiscal year is about 14 million. The entire Civic Center budget is 19 million, but that includes Hart Plaza and the Vet Bldg, administrative costs and a line for capital improvement.
Hart Plaza and the Vet Bldg generate almost enough revenue to pay for themselves [[looking at the revenue versus appropriation lines of the budget). That's all on the City's website.
Cobo on the other hand, appears to generate about 4 million and costs about 14 million. So when you are talking about the City's General Fund, the City is definitely subsidizing Cobo. When you look at the Sowerby economic impact study that has already been widely referenced, 30% of the economic impact goes to Oakland County which contributes less than 20% of the funding. You get similar statistics for Macomb County in that the benefit is larger proportionately to the contribution.
http://house.mich.gov/SessionDocs/20...-31-2008-1.pdf
Certainly no other event comes close to using the space the auto show uses, or generating the revenue it generates. But it is still only 3 weeks out of the year. It doesn't cover the entire cost of Cobo to the City [[nor should it). Shouldn't the City put more emphasis in keeping Cobo booked throughout the year, whether the auto show stays at Cobo or not? That is not implying that the auto show is keeping Cobo from being successful, just that the City might be using it as too much of a crutch and might not be maximizing the use of Cobo.
Again, I'm just wondering if moving the auto show to Oakland County might not be such a bad idea after all.
True and eventually this must happen for the region to surviveQuote:
Originally Posted by Lorax
Its an ok deal but I think Detroit could have negotiated a better deal one that is more in the cities best interest, but that being saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Lorax
it should have been about lets keep talking, not I'm going to take my ball and go home, thats what I fault the city council for.
I really think like the old Sam Cooke tune "a change is gonna come" this November and we will get some rational people in that office.
The one fear I had when Cockrel took over as mayor, I always thought he was the stablizing influence among the Council even by the way he handled some of KK comments against him. With that influence gone this is the result.
First let me help you understand how the schedule works for the Auto Show. Workers begin immediately after the Thanksgiving Holiday show employing hundreds of workers beginning to set up the Auto Show. From about two weeks before Christmas more employees are added and the heavy lifting starts. After Christmas it goes gang busters with several hundred more employees hired. At this time workers are 750+
This brings countless tax revenue into Detroit by the way of temporary employees paying City of Detroit Income Tax, I know I was one!
Then it is one show after another one [[at least till just recently) when the Auto Show comes down there is [[was) two more SAE Shows [[now at the Rock) Material and then Engineers. These two more shows made it between the Autorama and was like I said non-stop employment for about 100-450 highly skilled union workers.
Yes the loss of the Auto Show will be devastating but when compared to what Cobo use to be scheduled, add the losses in the other shows, then this will be the death blow to a somewhat storied history.
But I do not feel the Auto Show deal is dead!
Cobo is constructed like no other building in our area. I know most of you only see a vacant hall with walls that slide open and closed but the infrastructure is unique and very costly! If any of you were ever to go underneath Cobo you'd know what I'm talking about. The support structure, utilities, and capabilities [[enough to sustain a small city itself) can not be built for a 100 times what the former deal "for Cobo" was being offered. Again I restate that I was against the recent Cobo deal and supported council and others who rejected the offer.
I, [[like many others above who) have said due to the economy a much smaller scaled back version of the Auto Show will be what's in store for us in the next year [[and coming years.) This will work for the size Cobo is right now! But plays in the hand of Her Majesty King Patterson [[ I have always felt he was as gay as a 3 dollar bill.) Since "The Rock" was built with much smaller scale infrastructure they could handle it right now and when the economy improves add to the floor space but the infrastructure will still be lacking and the costs to take both the size and capabilities would be way more than what was needed to increase Cobo's original deal.
Now let's talk about Cobo. It is [[IMHO) the strongest and most well constructed building in the Great Lakes region. If a nuclear attack would happen believe me I would head for Cobo! It is completely self sustained and the strongest superstructure anywhere near here, and can be defended in many ways. It is no secret that all the local municipalities know this fact and have contingency plans to occupy sections of it in times like this. Take for instance the recent fire in the city building, all they did was enact their emergency plan. Macomb & Oakland know this also and is a hidden agenda of the hotel-liquor tax. Cobo may have her wrinkles but the old girl is in excellent shape and with a little face lift she can serve her purpose once again.
I've been all over her [[Cobo) from the roof to her deepest bowels [[there are really cool tunnels down there and one that leads into the Joe where I use to sneak and watch the Wing's games... lol) She is a grand building and deserves to be repaired and fixed up a little. But it's just a little! She is not falling down and desecrated, she needs some help but I think the detractors [[those who wish to host the Auto Show themselves) are making a bigger deal than what truly exists.
As residents of our area we should hold fast for a better deal. The costs to make an identical replacement for Cobo, much less a larger one, would be astronomical and in this economy you will not find too many in a rush to build another one, even her Majesty!
Come on we have all come to ignore Brooks in the past, so what, this is just his latest blow hard tactic and we all know what and why he is doing this. He hates Detroit, so we should take his words with a grain of salt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHeart
Excellent post !!! one can learn something new every day !!
Did you not read where the roof was dripping rain on the show cars at autorama? But lets put this deal in better light. Some one offers you a job at $9/hr with full benefits for you and your family but a small co-pay. You think you can do better, may be even a $12/hr job but no benefits. Which would you take? 9x40=$360 week. 12x40=$480 week. Before you answer remember Health Insurance costs an employer over $20,000 a year.
understand where you're coming from but bad analogy only in the sense that once Detroit signs off on the deal the city is going to have to live with the results for years to come. Yes some job even a lesser job with benefits is better than a higher paying job with no benefits but I'm still free to look for that job with both high pay and high benefits, I'm not locked into a contract I'm sure Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties would just love to re-negotiate because they love Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lansingfire
Detroit already knows how to sign off on bad deals.
They elected Kwame twice and Monica is in office.
Monica claims Cobo is worth over a billion dollars.
Sell it then. Then fix the schools with the money.
Olddetroiter is onto something. Maybe COBO could be used as a film studio.
Personally, I think it should be torn down along with the Ford Auditorium, Veterans Building, Hart Plaza, and the [[apparently) soon to be vacant Joe Louis Arena and the [[possibly) soon to be vacant RenCen/GM Building, and turned into a park so that the people of Detroit can enjoy the view of the river.
Never thought I'd say it, but Moronica Conyours, I'm with you on this one.
It works for Chicago their idea was nothing should take away from the view of the lake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
Hey, maybe you're on to something here. In fact, why not tear down all of downtown, so those of us living north of the Fisher can see the river too? Hell, this whole damn city is in the way. What about people in Warren and Oak Park? Shouldn't they get river views?Quote:
Originally Posted by firstandten
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearinabox
I guess all that banging is what made you come up with your last post !!
"Shouldn't the City put more emphasis in keeping Cobo booked throughout the year, whether the auto show stays at Cobo or not? That is not implying that the auto show is keeping Cobo from being successful, just that the City might be using it as too much of a crutch and might not be maximizing the use of Cobo."
Cobo is already booked for events throughout the year.
http://www.cobocenter.com/events.php
The SAE World Congress at Cobo this week is another big event with international ties. But again, those other shows aren't covering the bill and don't bring in anywhere near the revenues that the Auto Show does. You might not have noticed but Detroit isn't exactly a destination location for major conventions. In most major cities, the convention center helps sell the destination. In Detroit, the opposite is true. Convention planners have to look past all of Cobo's flaws to reach the decision that Detroit is where they want to go. As long as Cobo is a second-rate center, and it is, there's little chance that Cobo can attract shows that will bring in the level of revenue to match what the Auto Show brings in.
Bearinabox, the point is not to give people a river view from their homes; it's to give people a place to go to and relax, recreate, and enjoy Detroit's greatest natural asset [[the river) and Detroit's greatest man-made asset [[it's skyline).
There are already many such places along the riverfront. You don't have to knock down every last building for people to be able to enjoy the river.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
Besides, what you said before is that "the people of Detroit" should be able to "enjoy a view of the river." All I'm saying is that Detroit is a city, that cities contain buildings, and that sometimes buildings stop you from seeing what is behind them. Sorry for the inconvenience and all that.
These poll results might be a suprise to Conyers and Watson.
The survey also asked voters about the failed proposal to transfer Cobo Center to a regional authority. The question also told respondents the authority would free up $15 million in city money spent on Cobo for other city uses. Some 54% said they supported the agreement while 26% said they opposed it.
http://freep.com/article/20090424/NE...yoral+election
IMHO, I don't think they're too worried about this poll. There are other folks who don't want the deal. You know lots of the stuff that happens in this city isn't for the good of the people or what the majority would like. *hug*Quote:
Originally Posted by leland_palmer
The state of Cobo Center's facilities is one issue that may stand in the way of generating convention business, but we are leaving out that doing business with the City of Detroit itself and the unions may be as big an impedement as anything else.
Cobo Center's management has a track record of corruption and incompetence. The most important element in any business relationship is trust. Why would anyone trust their convention to an organization with a reputation for crime and waste?
This is a business issue at its base. The global marketplace has issued its verdict on Cobo Center. Convention facilities and services in metro Detroit must change or other convention sites will rightly eat our lunch.
It's a business world and politics is only just living in it.
When you ask voters, over the phone, if they support an agreement for Cobo that would free up $15 million dollars that can be used elsewhere, you should be surprised that only 54% said "Yes". 26% said "No." I guess 20% wanted more details before answering;)
No matter what your opinion about Cobo, wouldn't you agree that this was a "leading" question designed to increase the likelihood of a particular response?
i'd have no quarrel if cobo was razed and a new structure entirely was built on the riverfront grounds.. no piecemeal upgrades..
Sounds like a teriffic plan to me, any ideas on how to pay for it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypestyles