Printable View
Yeah, so how is this a Detroit issue? Because Philadelphia has been shrinking for as long as Detroit has, albeit at a slower rate. So if it is possible for Philly to stop its 60 year population decline, what will it take for Detroit to grow again?
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ho...e_bigger_.html
All we have to do is become a suburb of New York City. ;)
Let's attach ourselves to Chicago. We can be known as the Second Suburb. Get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Acela gets passengers from New York's Penn Station to Philly in 50 minutes. We'd need a bullet train to do that!
Not to drown anyone in a pit of irony, but I know a few people who have moved to Philly. I don't find the place half bad myself, the legal street art really livens the place up.
That President Obama sure is a visionary:Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/648
Sigh. That's a neat program. Still, I'd really much rather have a link with Toledo!
Philadelphia never entirely lost its middle class, which helped..[[unlike Detroit). But the crime problem is intense, hence the nickname "Killadelphia"...
The census bureau for Philadelphia's population increase is true. New jobs and heavy family ethic cause the city of brotherly love to reach its the 1.4 million mark.
Philadelphia has a well balance black/white population. The city used to be mostly white for over 300 years now it little bit black with a fast growing Cuban community. Philadelphia's regionalization and tourism put it on the map. Detroit can do the same if the people just put away their 'no hope' attitude.
Philadelphia was able to accommodate this population growth because they didn't spend millions of dollars turning neighborhoods into scenes from "Mad Max".
Oh yeah, that whole thing where the city is walkable doesn't make it a bad place to live, either.
Might also have something to do with Philly having 3 major research institutions [[one an Ivy ) and about 15 other colleges and universities there. IIRC Metro Philly area has the highest concentration of colleges and college students in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Take away that massive economic driver, and I bet you'd get Detroit....no matter how walkable.
Yet those three major research universities weren't able to stem Philly's decline for the past 60 years, yet somehow they're the reason for a gain in population?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I'm not making any excuse. Just pointing out the glaring omission in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
The problem with Detroit is that the people with the money here don't feel they need the city. These sorts of people will always default to a cornucopia of conflicting causes for Detroit's decline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pffft
Philly is across the Delaware River from Camden, New Jersey isn't it?? There's part of the problem there.
I'm pretty sure that would be Boston.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Yes, Camden, NJ is directly across the river. Camden has virtually no middle class, and has incredible problems that mirror those faced in the neighborhoods in many areas in Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
Philadelphia, by the way, has virtually the same land area as Detroit. The experiences of the two cities are very different, however.
The high concentration of colleges, and walkability are some of many reasons 20 somethings find the city attractive [[the subway/bus system helps too). It also costs about the same as Detroit, but has the proximity to New York going for it. Philly is just in a better position to grow, they've been there for quite awhile.
Not really... I don't have the patience to dig through the stats again, but Philly has suffered from many of the same issues as Detroit. In fact, of cities in the "very large" category, I'd say that Philly comes closest to sharing the same problems as Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by cman710
Also, being across the water from Camden, NJ has absolutely nothing to do with Philly's crime rate. That's like trying to blame Highland Park or Royal Oak Twp for Detroit's high crime rate.
You're right, i stand corrected, per Google.... Philly is not #1.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Quote:
Philadelphia is one of the largest college towns in the United States and has the second-largest student concentration on the East Coast with over 120,000 college and university students enrolled within the city and nearly 300,000 in the metropolitan area. There are over 80 colleges, universities, trade, and specialty schools in the Philadelphia region. The city contains three major research universities: the University of Pennsylvania, Drexel University, and Temple University. Other institutions of higher learning within the city's borders include Saint Joseph's University, La Salle University, Peirce College, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia, The University of the Arts, Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts, the Curtis Institute of Music, Thomas Jefferson University, Moore College of Art and Design, The Art Institute of Philadelphia, Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, The Restaurant School at Walnut Hill College, Philadelphia University, Chestnut Hill College, Holy Family University, the Community College of Philadelphia and Messiah College Philadelphia Campus.
Philadelphia's famous Pennsylvania Main Line and western suburbs are home to other notable colleges and universities including Villanova University, Bryn Mawr College, Haverford College, and Swarthmore College.
The city is a national center of law because of the University of Pennsylvania Law School, Drexel University Earle Mack School of Law, Temple University Beasley School of Law, Rutgers University School of Law - Camden, Villanova University School of Law, and Widener University School of Law. Additionally, the headquarters of the American Law Institute is located in the city.
But yeah, other than that, it's just like Detroit.
While Philadelphia has suffered many of the same issues of Detroit, that does not mean that the cities do not have different histories and experiences. Simply because they are similar in land area and once were similar in population does not make the cities similar. Of course, the cities do have some similarities, but there are far more significant differences, some of which include:Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
1) Detroit grew later than Philadelphia, and on a different economic base. Philadelphia reached 500,000 people prior to 1860, whereas Detroit did not reach such heights until just after 1920. Likewise, Philadelphia reached 1 million people just prior to 1890, whereas Detroit did not pass the 1 million mark until shortly after 1920. Philadelphia had more gradual growth, whereas Detroit really rose on modern manufacturing.
2) Philadelphia has historically had a more diversified economy than Detroit.
3) As one poster has demonstrated, Philadelphia has had a larger set of "anchor institutions" [[hospitals, universities, etc.) than Detroit, helping the city weather downturns.
4) Philadelphia has been the destination of far more immigrants than Detroit.
5) Philadelphia is not as racially segregated as Detroit.
6) Philadelphia benefits from being located between Washington, D.C. and New York, the former of which has experienced incredibly dramatic growth during the past 40+ years, and the latter of which has been growing significantly for 20+ years. In contrast, Detroit forms the major city in its metro region, relatively unconnected to any other major city
I think those are enough reasons to support my point for now.
On a final note, a different poster made the comment regarding crime in Camden and Philadelphia being related. Of course they are not related.
Philly is racially segregated, but it's "block by block" -- not running along municipal boundaries as it does here.
You quote a wikipedia entry to prove some point about Philly and Detroit being dissimilar? Have you ever even been to Philly? I'm there several times a year. I know what it looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Detroit also has several colleges and/or universities, and even more in the surrounding areas [[one of which is a very highly ranked university). In fact, the only school that really differentiates Philadelphia proper's university stock from Detroit's is Penn [[and it is an Ivy League school... so duh, right?). And outside of University City [[and not very far outside of it, I must stress), Philly's neighborhoods appear to be just as depressed as many of the neighborhoods in Detroit. Granted, you don't find areas depopulated to the extent that some sections of Detroit [[well, maybe in North Philadelphia), but Philly gets rough too.
I don't think you should take Bailey so seriously. It's not like he's doing serious research or anything. He just enjoys pissing on Detroit from his remove.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Philly has, and has always had, a very different economy from Detroit's, which is the main factor. It also held onto enough of its urban middle class to keep the city from tipping into a complete slide. 3 of the reasons for that are, a large business/office community downtown that did not flee to the suburbs, a mass transit system that enables large numbers of people to get into and out of the central city, and around the core area, without a car, and the preservation of a lot of attractive historic housing, despite calls to "urban renew" it out of existence a few decades ago.
In Detroit, we never had most people working downtown, but in manufacturing facilities spread throughout the city and the area, none of our largest companies were ever headquartered downtown [[until GM's move to Ren Cen), and many of our secondary and support businesses fled to the suburbs at the first sign of problems long ago. Mass transit is of course largely non-existent, and we destroyed many of our beautiful old neighborhoods, or simply left them to rot away like Brush Park. Instead of building a walkable city like Philly, with nice transit friendly older neighborhoods and active street-level business centers, we just kept tearing stuff down so that we could park yet more cars - even as the number of cars coming into the city was declining.
Great post and I agree with your statement. The City of Brotherly Love has its urban problems and its housing stock [[ moslty New England styled row houses), but ethnic folks can deal with the every day violent crime and slum clearances. Those folks really stand up for their town and defend it with their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by EastsideAl
People in Detroit couldn't get out the 'Pre Mississippian' culture as a result white and ethnic flight and leaving mostly blacks to be trapped in the urban pyschological institutions we called 'The Ghetto'.
Interesting way to tour the neighborhoods of Philadelphia is to go to Google Maps - street view and just click the little orange man on to any Philly street away from downtown. Amazing how narrow their streets are.
I'm simply trying to point out a very simple fact that is being ignored. Philly has a huge economic driver and some pretty significant differences that has kept it from falling to the depths that Detroit has. Remove the 500k-1 million people and a similar numbers of jobs that are derived from that huge driver and you'd have a point that Detroit and Philly are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Has Philly had a rough go in the manufacturing sector? sure. Was there de-poulation? yes, HALF of what Detroit saw over the same period. Is there blight and abandonment? Yes. To the level of Detroit... debateable. I would say no where near it.
Wikipedia was the first source that came up with a fairly succinct summation of the point. Is anything in the summation wrong? Should I have compiled the data from US News instead to back up my point.....or should only the Census Bureau be used as a reference?
I don't enjoy pissing on anyone... I simply can not stand the willful and strident ignorance that gets posted here... as illustrated by this:Quote:
I don't think you should take Bailey so seriously. It's not like he's doing serious research or anything. He just enjoys pissing on Detroit from his remove.
Yup the ONLY difference is UM is in AA [[30 minutes away) and Penn . I mean you can not be serious.Quote:
Detroit also has several colleges and/or universities, and even more in the surrounding areas [[one of which is a very highly ranked university). In fact, the only school that really differentiates Philadelphia proper's university stock from Detroit's is Penn [[and it is an Ivy League school... so duh, right?).
Unless it's your own, I suppose. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I don't see how this is relevant to what I said, which was that Philly is the most similar very large city to Detroit today. Chicago was barely much over 100,000 residents when Philly broke the 500,000 resident barrier. Is it now unfair to compare Chicago to places like Baltimore or Philly, since they were roughly twice Chicago's size [[and greater) in 1860? [[And FYI, Philadelphia grew nearly 3 fold in the span of a decade [1850-1860] to break the 500,000 mark. It hasn't had a growth rate that high since. It has actually lagged well behind the other 4 former industrial powerhouses.)Quote:
Originally Posted by cman710
This may be the case now, but I doubt that we can say this definitively for all points in Detroit and Philadelphia's history.Quote:
2) Philadelphia has historically had a more diversified economy than Detroit.
Already addressed in my reply to that poster.Quote:
3) As one poster has demonstrated, Philadelphia has had a larger set of "anchor institutions" [[hospitals, universities, etc.) than Detroit, helping the city weather downturns.
Measured from when?Quote:
4) Philadelphia has been the destination of far more immigrants than Detroit.
Along municipal lines? No. Along neighborhood lines. Yes.Quote:
5) Philadelphia is not as racially segregated as Detroit.
I don't see how this is relevant to comparisons of Philadelphia proper to Detroit proper. And if anything, this distinction would hurt Philly and help Detroit.Quote:
6) Philadelphia benefits from being located between Washington, D.C. and New York, the former of which has experienced incredibly dramatic growth during the past 40+ years, and the latter of which has been growing significantly for 20+ years. In contrast, Detroit forms the major city in its metro region, relatively unconnected to any other major city
Well, you have a point. It must have been the emoticon and the constant sardonic comments that sold me. Detroit and Philly are exactly the same and if Detroit people in general would just realize the only thing keeping Detroit from being exactly like New York City is their lack of self esteem and a two mile closed loop street level people mover... and not a thing else... we'd be golden. Hooray! :D;):rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
If by "addressed" you mean "completely ignored" ...then yes you addressed it.Quote:
3) As one poster has demonstrated, Philadelphia has had a larger set of "anchor institutions" [[hospitals, universities, etc.) than Detroit, helping the city weather downturns.
Already addressed in my reply to that poster.
Okay, so in your opinion... Which big American city most closely mirrors the situation of Detroit? Just so we are on the same page, let's draw the line for "big city" to include only those with an inner-city population of 800,000 or above [[or if you want to measure by MSA, those with populations of 3.5M and above).Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Iheartthed, you are missing the point. I never stated that you could not compare Detroit and Philadelphia simply because they have many differences. Obviously there can be a comparison. My post was in response to your assertion that I was incorrect to state that Detroit and Philadelphia have had very different experiences. I think that the information I presented convincingly refutes that claim. Perhaps Philadelphia is the most similar big city to Detroit, but that only points up the fact that Detroit finds itself in a very unique situation, unlike any other big city.
Your other responses seek to brush aside my points without refuting them:
- Philadelphia has historically had a more diversified economy than Detroit. That is part of the reason the city did not decline as much as Detroit, which has had an economy principally based on manufacturing jobs. Clearly, at some point in history, Philadelphia also relied heavily on manufacturing jobs, but you could say that about every major city in existence prior to the last 50 years. You have not refuted this point.
- We do not need to get into the fine points of which city has greater anchor institutions, but you have shown that Boston has more than Philadelphia, not that Detroit has as many as Philadelphia.
- For immigration, our time period clearly is the last 40 years, the period of major decline. I challenge you to demonstrate that Detroit has received more immigrants in that period than Philadelphia. You will not be able to do so.
- As far as housing segregation, neighborhood racial segregation occurs in nearly every major city. There have been several measures, however, showing that the Detroit metro area is among the most segregated in the country, more than Philadelphia. See here, here, or here if you require proof.
- Your dismissal of the importance of Philadelphia as sitting between DC and New York is astonishing. The growth of DC and New York have not hurt Philadelphia. If anything, it has helped Philadelphia. Philadelphia has a great location between the political capital and the financial capital of the nation. You cannot credibly claim that such a location has not significantly helped Philadelphia's economic growth.
If Philadelphia's proximity to New York and DC has had such an effect on Philly, then why does Baltimore [[35 miles from DC) still look like the Seventh Circle of Hell? For that matter, is there something so magical in the water in DC and New York that prevented their own declines? History says otherwise.
Philly does have a lot of institutions. Comparable versions of these institutions exist in Michigan, but many of them are in the suburbs. What Philly does have going for it:
*Attractive, walkable city center
*Large supply of affordable building stock [[see Jane Jacobs re: the need for old buildings)
*A Center City that hasn't been imploded to build "landscaped and lighted parking lots" and "temporary parks" on every other block.
*Decent public transit, including not only an extensive bus system, but streetcars, subway, an extensive regional rail system that reaches into New Jersey and Delaware, and a subway line that crosses into New Jersey; this includes convenient regional rail access to the airport
*Frequent Amtrak connections to the economic centers of New York, Baltimore, Wilmington, and DC
These are things that attract young, educated professionals. Employers are in turn attracted by the presence of young, educated professionals.
Philly's people care about their city. Its like Detroit used to be once upon a time.
Proximity to NY and DC help but the fact that Philly is not a one horse town [[economically speaking) is why it was able to easily re-invent itself and draw people to it.
If you long for the Detroit of the 60s or 70s then by all means take a trip to philly and its like going back in time.
Speaking about Philly, I just encountered this in my everlasting journey along the worldwide web. Detroit has more in common with Philadelphia besides declinging populations. Take a look at the Philadelphia Metropolitan Opera House. Also in a massive state of disrepair. However, this house has a few things in favour compared to the theatres in Detroit. For one, this still has a tennant in parts of the building. It was bought from the city by a chruch community in the 90's. And second, this house is placed on the list of historic places in America.
All is not lost for this old beast which was build by Roger Hammerstein I.
Your question assumes that proximity to New York and DC would definitely make a city prosperous. That is not true. What I said is that Philadelphia has been helped by its proximity to New York and DC. Likewise, Baltimore has undoubtedly benefited from being close to DC. However, that proximity, in itself, will not guarantee prosperity. Both Baltimore and Philadelphia are better off for not being isolated cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
For your other point, do not forget that New York and DC have experienced awful declines, particularly in the 1970s and 1980s. New York may have lost only 10% of its population in that period, but that is still over 700,000 people!
To explain the defining difference between Detroit and Philly: it's the economy, stupid. Philly hasn't relied on manufacturing as its bread and butter for probably over a century, now. It long since transformed itself into service center. And, yeah, it's historic role brought on by its proximity as a "cheaper NYC" surely didn't and doesn't hurt. You move Philly to where Pittsburgh is, today, and it'd have not turned out a success story, at least of these proportions. And, as others have said, proximity counts for A LOT. If Baltimore, Philly, and DC would have all developed further apart, we'd not even be talking of serious comebacks. They've fed off of each others talents and economies since their creations. That despite them having very similar social problems to Detroit [[Baltimore regularly ranks up there with, and sometimes tops, Detroit in terms of murder rate.) they manage to always come back from the bring of disaster is a testament to proximity and a diversified economy. Baltimore, in particular, is still a very rough town, but with enough of an economy to lessen the effect of the social problems.
I was just in Philadelphia for a week in November, and I will be there for a week later this month [[both trips for work). So while I can't talk about stats, I can talk about what I saw last month.
Whenever I'm out of town, if I am able, I like to read the local newspaper and watch the local evening news. Philly's news reminded me of Detroit's media in the 1980s... I watched for a half hour, and there was nothing but murder after murder. There were no human interest stories whatsoever, and the terms used to describe the criminals by the newscasters are terms I have rarely heard Detroit anchors used. [["Well, I'm glad they caught that thug.") It was an absolutely jaw-dropping experience, and unnerved me... and when you are from the D, it takes a h*ll of a lot to unnerve you.
Then there were the native Philadelphians whom I chatted with during my downtime, both professionals in my field and workers. They reminded me a lot of the folks in New Orleans that I talked to in 2004... who told me that "everybody's trying to get out of here... it's terrible here..." exactly 18 months before Katrina. Until that visit, I had NEVER heard residents of ANY city sound more desperate than we do... I kept pointing to their tourism, their historic culture, the revitalized Riverwalk, and the French Quarter... and at least a couple dozen people would either get annoyed or a little angry. "That's for the TOURISTS. There's NOTHING here for us... I'm moving to Houston or Atlanta." That next year, I thought about those conversations as I watched their city drown.
During this visit, the Philadelphians sounded the same way. Other than my visits to New Orleans, Philly remains the only American city where I haven't had to hear Detroit denigrated a single time, or listen to a single person expressing their condolences that I live there. In fact, one lady from North Philly assured me that her city *will* become Detroit in another 20 years if things continue this way. I had to assure her that no, it would not, that Detroit was a perfect storm, and no one was abandoning Philly wholesale... but she swore to me that Philly was now more violent than Detroit, and businesses were leaving, along with some regatta [[I think that's what she said) that's been there forever.
I think that the economy must be getting people down, and Philadelphia will never be Detroit [[just as PA will never be MI). However, the Philly natives assured me, to a man and a woman, that ordinary people in their metro depended on manufacturing, too... and that "we know things are bad there, but things are getting bad here, too."
The tone in this country is changing. Detroit is becoming more than the butt of jokes. We are now a national cautionary tale.
Disclaimer: all of the above are my observations from a few weeks spent in Philadelphia over the past three and a half years. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Yes, part of it is the Detroit area's marriage to the auto industry, but not all. Since 1980, the Detroit metropolitan [[defined as Wayne, Macomb, and Oakland) population has been about flat, while Philadelphia's [[defined as Philadelphia, Bucks, Chester, Delaware, and Montgomery counties in PA, and Camden, Gloucester, and Burlington counties in NJ) has grown about 9%. That to me is the difference caused by having a non-diversified economy in the Detroit area [[about 400,000 or so people).
The question for me is why did a greater percentage of Detroiters move to the suburbs than Philadelphians. Since 1950, Detroit has lost more than half of its population, while Philadelphia has lost about 30% of its. In the same time, Detroit's suburbs have grown by about 160%, while Philadelphia's have grown about 130%. And it's not just a post-riot situation - in the 1950's, Detroit's population declined 10%, while Philadelphia's was down 3%, and in the 60's Detroit was down another 9% while Philadelphia was down about 3% again.
One place to look might be the attachment of people to their neighborhoods. I would bet a large percentage of the 1950 Detroiters were relatively recent [[1920's or 1940's) migrants, while the white working class in Philadelphia lived in neighborhoods that had been settled since sometime in the 1800's.
I guess students that went to Wayne State, University of Detroit, Lawrence Tech, Oakland, and the likes can just piss on their degrees before they throw them into the fire then?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
The Second Empire architecture in that city is absolutely stunning. That includes the neighborhoods.
I think you're on to something here. One also has to look at the cost of living in the Midwest vs. the East Coast. I wonder if it might have been more cost-prohibitive for ethnic whites in the East to move out. It's the most densely populated area in the nation [[other than SoCal), so space/land/real estate is at a premium. That isn't really the case in Michigan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don K
Also, don't forget about the role of a city's upper crust elite. Ours are a little different than those in other Northern cities. Compare Henry Ford and the auto barons to the rich families of Chicago, New York... and yes, Philadelphia. In many cities, the majority of the cultural institutions are within city limits. This was never the case in Detroit... I've always had to explain to my out-of-town visitors the significance of Dearborn, for instance.
Now, I suppose the question is what happened to the original French elite families? I know some people with roots in French Detroit, a few of whom are regular DYes posters. Sometimes I wonder what the city might have been like with a 300 year old elite, much like New England has.
simple. it's a hard truth, but it's reality. Detroit needs to get tough on dealing with waste - whether it be people, garbage, space or whatnot, The people who want a prosperous life need to stand up to those that don't. get rid of the crap and life will get better. don't wait for government or others to do it for you.
Actually, it's been the case in Detroit, too. In fact, cultural and entertainment institutions were probably were probably more constituted in Detroit than most other cities. Detroit had all of the major museums, all of the major theaters, all of the metropolitan universities, most all of the areas most wealthy residential enclaves, etc...and that's even still true, today, as far as the actual cultural institutions are concerned [[i.e. museums, opera house, theaters...) with a few major exceptions like the zoo and the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
Really, I'm not sure that was at all the difference.
You know, this doesn't sound like well thought out advice, at all. Can you explain to me, for instance, how exactly you "get rid of" "crap" people? You do know that people are human beings, and thus can't [[and shouldn't) be thrown out like you would garbage, right? But, much like garbage, ironically, when you do place people in landfills or try to file them away instead of recycling them, the problem doesn't actually disappear.Quote:
Originally Posted by staticstate
Just to chime in here as someone who lived in Phillly twice. First in 1985 to 1986 on a work assignment, and then from 2000 to 2002. Both times I lived witin the paramiters of "Center City", which includes a number of neighborhoods such as, Old City, Queen Village, Rittenhouse Square, Chinatown and the like.
First, for quite awhile now the Census Department has stated that Philly has the 3rd largest "downtown" population of major American cities [[New York being first, Chicago being 2nd). This is also where the population growth has occured recently, and it has led to the dramactic increase in the number of restaurants, clubs, and food stores that have sprung up all over Center City. Whole Foods has 2 oultets within CC, Trader Joes set up shop as well. The historic Reading Terminal market has benefited from this as well.
The weird thing has been "traditional" retail, weird as in it has been a struggle to get CC residents to shop in CC, many drive to Cherry Hill, or King of Prussia to do their shopping. This is dispite the fact that Macy's operates a store on 3 floors of the famed John Wanamaker building, and many upscale chains have stores on Walnut Street, and Chesnut Street [[west of Broad St). As a result of this The Gallery Mall on Market Street East has gone from having 3 traditional dept. stores as anchors, to today where it is anchored by Big K-Mart, and Burlington Coat Factory. The Gallery today largely serves the populas of North Philly, who lack decent stores in the 'hood.
The transportation system SEPTA, serves the entire region with a network of busses, trolleys, trackless trolleys [[bizarre looking things), and commuter rail. Other than Commuter Rail, the SEPTA network is used mostly by the urban poor. SEPTA's in-city services do not have the type of universal ridership that you see in Boston, as an example. Further in Boston you will see the thousands of people who make up the sudent population moving about the HUB area like everyone else. In Philly the student population stays mostly on their campuses.
Speaking of urban poor, Philly is alo home to several "white ghettos", like Kensington and Frankford, and it is interesting how freaked out people get they see this.
On the issue of walkability and crime, Philly has a walkable Center City, BUT you have to know where your walking. As an example if your in the middle of tony Rittenhouse Square, and decide to 'explore", a simple walk of 5 blocks south will land you in no mans land, with little buffer between the areas. This is part of the reason that crime remains a problem within Center City. You have severe poverity, and hopelessnes, within a short distance of prosperity, the two worlds do collide on occasion.
Ken
The thing is, that general sentiment isn't new to Philadelphians. For decades there has been the general sentiment that Philly was in decline, much the same as how we all felt about Detroit. You don't even have to be familiar with the city to see this... Just look at the wording of the article that I posted!Quote:
Originally Posted by English
Of cities that have ever had more than 1 million residents, only two have been continually shrinking in population for almost 60 years: Detroit and Philadelphia. I think that some people on here get confused when we draw comparisons of Detroit against other cities. We all know that for very large cities Detroit is the extreme in terms of decline. We know that. But that doesn't mean we can't draws comparisons between Detroit and others. And if you look at other very large cities that have been on a similar trajectory as Detroit, then Philadelphia is the obvious closest match.
Thanks for illustrating the point about willful and strident ignorance. My very, very simple point is not IN ANY WAY about the respective "quality" of anyone's degree, its about the numbers. But, of course, as is par for the course here, you take an objective fact as some sort of personal attackQuote:
Originally Posted by d.mcc
Let me see if I can slow this down enough....put UofM, MSU, EMU, Oakland and ooh, lets say Grand Valley ACTUALLY INSIDE DETROIT and not 30minutes to 2 HOURS AWAY and add them to the very fine WSU, UofD, CCS....etc and you'd approach the numbers of people, the economic multiplier, and the neighborhood foundation those students, universities, and research institutions that are located PHYSICALLY INSIDE PHILLY provide to Philly. [[lets not even get into the fact that there are 92 colleges and Universities in the Metro Philly area)
My point is that fact [[Philly having a huge knowledge economic driver incorporated in its economy) has a lot..not all..but A LOT to do with why Philly has only lost HALF as many people as Detroit over the same period.
Graduates of Michigan's universities aren't even staying in-state.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I think a lot can be learned through comparisons to Philadelphia. I think the dangerous part, though, is coming up with reason why Detroit "can't" do something. As Mr. Ford once said, "Think you can, think you can't. Either way you'll be right."
What are Detroit's strengths? What are the weaknesses that need to be addressed? What tools are needed to address the weaknesses? If Philadelphia can begin to turn itself around, certainly there is hope for Detroit. So, maybe Southeastern Michigan doesn't have 92 colleges and universities. Does that mean we should all just give up and let the region die?
There is, at present, great opportunity to reinvent Detroit. It could be something vibrant, dynamic, and incredible, or it can plod along day-to-day with terminal illness. Unfortunately, the former option takes a lot of hard work, creativity, and difficult decisions. It all really depends on whether or not Detroit wants to continue with its head-in-the-sand business-as-usual approach.
Maybe City Council and Mr. Bing could take one of those infamous "fact-finding" missions to Philadelphia....
I guess you sort of beg the question; has Philly "turned around" or has it simply reached an equilibrium point after a generation of anti city baby boomers, a generation of steep manufacturing industrial decline, and a generation of sprawl in it's suburbs?Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Perhaps that is all we're really seeing there. Philly with a diversified economy, favorable location, historic prominence...etc, has simply found its level. Detroit [[and Michigan too?), with it's reliance on one sector, it's relative isloation, its populations' anti "cities" mentality, and dedication to status quo...simply has not? Maybe Detroit's real equilibrium point is around the half million point?
By the way, Detroit is not isolated. There are over 50 million people within a 300 mile radius of downtown Detroit.
You have to reach an "equilibrium point" before you can turn around, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
And for what it's worth, most of Philadelphia's housing stock was constructed in the 1930s or earlier. Ergo, they've already had four generations of suburbanization.
I'm not sure what the intent of the second paragraph of your post is, but it seems like you think Detroit can rebound with a laissez-faire approach. If this is the case, I disagree wholeheartedly. Do you really want to see how far Detroit can bottom-out before any serious attempt at reconstruction is made? If you think Detroit has an unfavorable location and is isolated, you're flat-out insane. If your cities look like Detroit, Flint and Lansing, guess what?--you're populace is going to become anti-urban. From my experience, though, many Michiganders go to places like Chicago or DC for vacation, and even visit places like Ann Arbor, and seem to enjoy themselves immensely. The people aren't anti-urban--they're anti-stupidity.
which is why I said "relative"....as in "compared to".Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
[quote]Nope, i'm saying that laissez-faire or "do nothing different"...is the default position here now and likely will be until Detroit hits rock bottom,Quote:
I'm not sure what the intent of the second paragraph of your post is, but it seems like you think Detroit can rebound with a laissez-faire approach. If this is the case, I disagree wholeheartedly
Not particularly, seems like we're getting pretty close to heading that direction. However, it's also seems pretty clear nothing will be done until we do.Quote:
. Do you really want to see how far Detroit can bottom-out before any serious attempt at reconstruction is made?
THE POINT WAS AS IN COMPARISON TO PHILLY...hence the word "relative".Quote:
If you think Detroit has an unfavorable location and is isolated, you're flat-out insane
If your population relies upon cradle to the grave employment in a dying sector of the economy for 40 years, when you population demands first world amenities but not first world taxes, when your leadership at all levels lacks any vision or ability...well, you're going to get Detroit, Flint and Lansing regardless.Quote:
If your cities look like Detroit, Flint and Lansing, guess what?--you're populace is going to become anti-urban.
The problem of course, is the anti-stupid, as is shown on an almost daily basis...and certainly at election time/millage time, are vastly outnumbered.Quote:
From my experience, though, many Michiganders go to places like Chicago or DC for vacation, and even visit places like Ann Arbor, and seem to enjoy themselves immensely. The people aren't anti-urban--they're anti-stupidity
Detroit is:Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
40 miles from Ann Arbor
50 miles from Toledo
90 miles from Lansing
130 miles from London
160 miles from Grand Rapids
175 miles from Cleveland
190 miles from Akron
190 miles from Fort Wayne
200 miles from Columbus
245 miles from Toronto
260 miles from Cincinnati
270 miles from Buffalo
280 miles from Chicago
285 miles from Pittsburgh
310 miles from Indianapolis
across the river from Windsor
With road and rail connections to all of the above.
Remind me how Detroit is isolated?
Seriously? A lot of commuting to Indianapolis going on? Gonna hop the acela to Pittsburgh for that pitch meeting? hey, let's head to that economic juggernaut of Akron. Hey, lets take 7 hours by amtrack to get to Chicago for a weekend? In fact 9 of those cities are at least 4+ hours away- by car...i would think longer if flying allowing for getting to airport, delays..etc.-. and that is on a good day and not having a hassle in either traffic or the border.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Isolated...as in from the east coast Boston to DC/eastern seaboard/center of economic and political power.....as in compared to Philly which is what I thought was the point of this thread.
You just like to dance, don't you? Chicago is even further from the East Coast than Detroit. What's your excuse for their success? What about Atlanta, as awful as it is, which isn't close to jack shit? And for as much as you want to put down Akron, it's in far better shape than Detroit is these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Thanks to the State of Ohio, yes, there will be high speed rail from Detroit to Pittsburgh in the future [[and to most of the cities that I listed, for that matter).
You can sit on your ass and make the same excuses that got Detroit to this point, or you can come up with ideas to move the place forward.
I sometimes wonder, with the economic downturn and the need for retraining, why the University of Michigan wouldn't expand their "Detroit center" into a full-fledged campus. Yes, I know that U-M Dearborn is less than 30 minutes away, but all my buddies earning grad degrees in architecture, urban studies, sociology, and a few other key fields spend a lot of time in the city anyway. There's plenty of room in the area south of Wayne State's campus to do this, and the schools are all supposed to be part of the research corridor anyway.
Compared to Philly? How many people do you think live within a 300 mile radius of Philadelphia? I can assure you that it ain't much more than 50 million, if even that many. In fact, there are probably only but a handful of major cities on this continent that are situated in proximity to so many people.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
amen to that english. you should be in charge of the long march "home" for [[at least part of) the Catholepistemiad. a great idea that i've often wondered why uofm didn't pursue more wholeheartedly. if nyu can open in unsustainable but wealthy abu dhabi http://nyuad.nyu.edu/, why can't uofm open in sustainable but poor detroit?!? ;)
I love to dance. are you asking me out?Quote:
You just like to dance, don't you? Chicago is even further from the East Coast than Detroit. What's your excuse for their success? What about Atlanta, as awful as it is, which isn't close to jack shit? And for as much as you want to put down Akron, it's in far better shape than Detroit is these days.
I don't' think you understand. I am not disagreeing with you. Detroit is a colossal failure of a city PRECISELY because it did not embrace efficiency, innovation, or even things that just are plain common sense.
what's that skipper's rule again?Quote:
Thanks to the State of Ohio, yes, there will be high speed rail from Detroit to Pittsburgh in the future [[and to most of the cities that I listed, for that matter).
I think about a 5.00 tax on a gallon of gas, dropping income taxes, but raising sales taxes, chpt 9 for Detroit, about 50 square miles of Detroit proper vacated completely and taken off the grid, the construction of comprehensive and coherent metro mass transit, and making the expressways all toll roads might be a good start, but none of that is too likely now is it?Quote:
You can sit on your ass and make the same excuses that got Detroit to this point, or you can come up with ideas to move the place forward.
What are you proposing that isnt simply tinkering at the margins?
76 million [[a quarter of the total population of the US) live within 300 miles of Philly.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
I recently visited Philly and really enjoyed it. There is a real big-city vibrancy there, an energy not unlike NYC or Chicago. Downtown and the inner city areas are highly walkable and densely populated. Many neighborhoods are viable and the park areas feel monumental in a European way. There is a subway and other rail to the outlying areas, and buses are heavily used. I get a feeling that the residents truly like living there. Oh, and the surrounding countryside of eastern Pennsylvania is beautiful, too. I can see why, like D.C., Philadelphia is resurgent.
So that gas sells for $7.50 a gallon? What area would this tax cover? Taxed at what governmental level? What would it pay for?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
So Lansing can step in? They did a good job in Hamtramck, a poor job with DPS, and bailed on Highland Park, appointing a flunky. Or is it worth it just to stick it to the unions?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Eminent domain-style?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Where would the money come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
The federales might object to that, seeing as they own them.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
State. would go to mass transit and alternative fuel grid construction. nothing else.Quote:
So that gas sells for $7.50 a gallon? What area would this tax cover? Taxed at what governmental level? What would it pay for?
Highland park was doing well until the McNamara flunky in a skirt we call Governor, replaced the highly competent manager with [[per the detroit news) a "nickle grubbing bottom feeder". Elect better leaders get better results. Of course, Mike Cox is probably the next Gov, so all of this is simply fantasy.Quote:
So Lansing can step in? They did a good job in Hamtramck, a poor job with DPS, and bailed on Highland Park, appointing a flunky. Or is it worth it just to stick it to the unions?
yup. It aint getting done any other way.Quote:
Eminent domain-style?
5.00 tax on gas and increase sales tax. Um..also maybe asking our congressional delegation to actually bring home some pork?Quote:
Where would the money come from?
you're right [[that was included in the "not too likely" thought). let's just start with the state roads. or at the least, holding granholm ...and soon to be Cox administration to the promise of JUST fixing and maintaining roads, not these ridiculous expansions.Quote:
The federales might object to that, seeing as they own them.
My point though is that detroit and SeM are way past the point where small changes will do anything and I believe that the big changes that are required, will never happen because of inertia and unwillingness of anyone here...from the governor to the taxpayer...to actually do what needs to be done.
Thanks! Up here in the Land of the Maize and Blue, across schools and departments, faculty, staff, and students talk about bridging the divide between the university and the community. Ann Arbor is a relatively prosperous community... but we have a huge opportunity to implement our theories, research findings, and ideas in a city that's literally down the road from us. Yet sometimes folks up here outside of the urban planning, architectural, and sociological fields act as if Detroit is a million miles away.Quote:
Originally Posted by detourdetroit
We were sitting in a meeting earlier this week and people began to talk about how to enjoy the winter, and activities around Ann Arbor and Washtenaw County. You better believe I put in a plug for the city... "what's winter without Noel Night? And if you like the new UMMA, you'll LOVE the new DIA!"
my lifelong ambition has been to move to Philly. I was born in Philly at Thomas Jefferson Memorial Hospital. We lived at 22nd & Chestnut Street until I was about 1.5 years old. I'm 50 now and should of done it when I was 18. I did interview for jobs there in 1995 and 1996 but couldn't fine one in my field. My Dad was from the North Philadelphia Nicetown neighborhood. His father worked at Midvale Steel which no longer exists. My dad's parents came to Philadelphia from Ireland with my grandmother coming over about 1890 and my grandfather about 1900. The family church was St. Stephens Catholic Church at Broad & Butler Street. My Dad briefly went to Temple University before WWII broke out. I am on a blog for his Catholic grade school where everyone talks about the old neighborhood. Dad went to Northeast Catholic High School which is scheduled to close in 2010. My mom is from West Norriton in Montgomery County and is a Penn grad with a degree in architecture. She's 84 now and kept up her Pennsylvania architects license until a few years ago. She worked at Wanamaker's as a store planner until I was born. My Dad's brother lived in Frankford. His wife worked for Smith Kline & French Laboratories. My cousins aunts lived at the Claridge apartments at Rittenhouse Square. My cousin has a jewelry store in Jewelers Row in Center City. My mom's dad was born in Port Kennedy which was condemmed by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to form Valley Forge State Park in the early 20th century. Philadelphia has always been my absolute favorite city with its row houses and other historic buildings. And its only 2 hours from the Jersey Shore! I love Ocean City, NJ! One of these days I'll move back to Philly!
Chicago's success is due to Oprah.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
When she leaves, its going downhill.
It will take a few years but it will go downward. Maybe a little, maybe a lot . But it will go down to some extent.
Wannamaker's is a gorgeous structure. Really an example of architecture as art.Quote:
Originally Posted by lalynch
Now its a Macy's.
I always loved going to Wanamaker's. One trip we stopped in the store planning department and my mom's old boss and a co-worker were still working there. It was probably the early 1970's. Her old boss and his wife at the time were care takers of the historic Powell House in Philly and lived in his 3rd floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by dfunkycity
It was an awe-inspiring experience, shopping at the Philadelphia Macy's the weekend before Thanksgiving. It was all decked out for the holidays. The salesgirl told me that I had to stay long enough to hear the organ that they played at noon. So I did. After I bought my gift, I walked around and experienced for the very first time in my life what it's like to be in an old-fashioned department store in the U.S. [[I'll admit that I've been to NYC multiple times, but have never done the NY Macy's or Bloomingdale's).Quote:
Originally Posted by dfunkycity
I've always heard that the old J.L. Hudson's building was also very beautiful. So I stood there, listened to the organ, took in the decor and the crowds and the sheer heft of the building... and tears started rolling down my cheeks.
[[Disclaimer: I tend to cry over grand old architectural landmarks, had to be carried out of Notre Dame de Paris by friends when I swooned [[it was Bastille Day vespers -- SO beautiful!), and will likely faint when I finally do make it to Egypt... so please, ignore me. :))
I've always said that if you wanted to feel as if you were thrown back in time to the late 60's / early 70's Detroit just go to Philly.
Especially Christmastime. I can't really explain why. Nor can I put my finger on it in any way but this is the way Philly makes me feel.
There's just something about that city that feels like home. Old home , and it is really a great feeling going there when I can.
I think I may go down in a week or 2 just to get that feeling again.
Actually the redevelopment of the Wanamaker Building is a reminder of what could have been done with the J L Hudson Building.Quote:
Originally Posted by dfunkycity
Prior to 1987, John Wanamaker used the lower level thru 9th floor for retail space. The building was sold to a real estate trust who rebuilt the structure, and leased back the street floor to fifth floor to Wanamakers.
This space was also rebuilt and renovated. The below ground floors were rebuilt as a parking garage. The upper floors were renovated to into Class A office space, and the 9th floor Crystal Room complex [[think Hudson's 13th floor) was restored and is leased to Marriot who runs it as a catering facility.
When Wanamakers went bankrupt, the company that bought out the stores [[May Company) said they only agreed to run the Center City store since the retail space was reduced to a manageable level. May Co., fist ran the
store as Hecht's, and then a Lord and Taylor.
The retail space was consolidated to three selling floors before Lord and Taylor opened, and that is the space that Macy's uses today.
Macy's actually uses more space on the existing 3 floors that L & T did not use.
Macy's continues the daily organ concerts, the Christmas Light show, the eagle, and the Dickens Village, a walk through holiday display moved from the now closed Strawbridge store.
Ken
Now, THAT is one of the most naive, ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted in this forum. Thanks for the belly-laugh!Quote:
Originally Posted by dfunkycity
Yeah, the Jersey Shore is hard to beat... Ocean City... Wildwood... Cape May... wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by lalynch
No disclaimer needed. Completely understandable. Great architecture is supposed to "stir men's [[and women's) souls"... just ask Daniel Burnham.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
Yep, Wildwood is cool. Cape May is lovely. My cousins always went to Sea Isle City. My family went to Ocean City when I was a kid living in North Jersey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury13
I haven't been to the Jersey Shore since 1983 but on that trip I took photos of the Wildwood Diner and other cool buildings there. My cousins wife at the time advised against going to Wildwood because it was 'Honky Tonk' but that 'Honky Tonk' has been cleaned up and developed a great retro theme. Check out the Doo Wop Preservation League's website online. When I have a chance I will post it. It was architect Steven Izennour [[sp?) who suggested to Wildwood that they develop this retro theme due to their already existing building stock.
ok, now I am getting homesick for Philly . . . gotta go find a Steak Sandwich, Tasty Kake and a Birch Beer! LOL
And maybe some Shoofly Pie for later!
I did have a cheesesteak at Pat's and a Tastykake while I was there. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by lalynch
I know I'll be skewered, but ...speaking as a non-native Detroiter, the Wanamaker's building is way more attractive than the Hudson's building was. I know, the nostalgia for Hudson's itself, the store, the experiences people had there, the toy dept., the restaurants...all that is valid. I'm just saying physically, looking at it...to me, department stores should be stone palaces, not brick behemoths...
In my family, cheesesteak's were not a family thing because when my Dad grew up in Philadelphia, 1918 - 1941, when he left for WWII the Philly Steak Sandwich was more of a South Philly thing. And my mom grew up in West Norriton, next to Norristown, and the Steak Sandwich wasn't something that she grew up with either. I doubt that my grandparents who lived in West Norriton from 1930 until their deaths in the late 1980's either had a Steak Sandwich. And Pizza my grandmother called 'Pizza Pie.' They were just of another generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury13
We would load up on boxes of Tastykake's and Scraple on trips to my grandparents. On the trip back home while at a rest stop for lunch our dog ate the box of Tastykake's.
Genuardi's Supermarket, West Norriton store, was where we'd go shopping. My mom grew up with the Genuardi family who started out in the 1930's with a small grocery store and delivering by wagon to my grandparents. Each of the Genuardi sons had a store. When my grandfather died in 1988 the family sent flowers. I think he would go to the West Norriton store three times a day just for something to do and someone to bug . . .LOL
Looking at it objectively, you're probably right. Detroiters remember Hudson's through an emotional filter, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by pffft
Scrapple is a real delicacy, and although I love it, I'm told it's an acquired taste. My grandfather was from eastern Pennslyania [[coal country) and he used make scrapple from scratch... an all-day process. From the time I was a little kid, I was the only one in the family who liked the stuff. When I recently went back to PA, I had scrapple twice... and it was simply great. Brought back childhood memories.Quote:
Originally Posted by lalynch
I think that Philadelphian's have an emotional attachment to their old department stores to a certain extent. In addition to Wanamaker's they had Litt Brother's [[a beautiful building), Strawbridge and Clothier and Gimbel's.
I have a set of Russell Wright dishes for 16 that my mom bought in the 1950's at Wanamaker's.
Everytime they'd go on sale she'd buy some and use her store discount.
My dad would always talk about how great Philadelphia was when he was growing up. In fact, it would depress him when we would visit because it had changed so much. He used to describe it as a 'sleepy little city.' My mom & I cleaned out his brother's Frankford apartment one week, summer of 1987, while he read a book in the car all day because he could not deal with the changes of the city. However, he was born in 1918 and what city does not change!
My dad would always talk about how wonderful the dinners were at the Horn & Hardart's automat in Philly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalynch
Go to Joey's you can get all that and a bag of Herr's Chips.
To those who want to compare Wanamakers to Hudsons? No Comparison. Hudson's was enourmous, it takes the cake when it comes to square feet by far. Wanamakers however is a beautiful store. Probably one of the nicest ever built. Hudson's as a building had quantity, yes it had nice features but it was built over a dozen or so expansions, so it had oddities like shifts in floors where you would have to go up or down a few feet to continue shopping its not as nicely designed as Wanamakers. The closest thing to Hudson's I found was the old Carson's in Chicago, partially designed by Louis Sullivan, but lots of odd things about its layout.
:) Thanks Fury. I'll be back in Philly for another conference around Christmastime, so if people want me to take pictures of Wanamaker's/Macy's, I'll try to do so and bump this thread back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury13
I think that Detroit can use some of its grand old buildings to make a department store -- there was an attempt to do so earlier this decade [[can't remember the name). Although it didn't succeed, it was a beautiful place... not quite as beautiful as Macy's in Philly, but still a very nice shopping experience. I'd love to see a more tenacious group try it again.
Wanamakers had a big beautiful [[stone?) eagle. I wonder what happened to it...people would meet under the eagle. The restaurant on the top floor was called the Crystal Room, wasn't it?
You're right English, it's because Hudson's was built in fits and starts, that it had that sort of awkward appearance ...
Lit [[Litt?) Brothers was sort of the dowdier, grandmother's store. Nothing wrong with that...
Detroit had many department stores too though, beyond Hudson's, Crowley's, etc.
IMO, Hudson's was most comparable to its closest rival--Macy's Herald Square in both size & design. I believe this had to do with the fact that they were both continually being expanded expeditiously in functional phases, rather than designed as a cohesive aesthetically resplendent cathedral of commerce like Marshall Field, Wanamaker's, or Bullocks Wilshire.
The legacy of Macy's HS is based on the store's size, certainly not its glamour. This is compounded by the reality that both the building and the brand have devolved dramatically in the past 20-25 years. The store is poorly maintained to the point of looking shabby [[the Union Square & former MF State St flagships are following close behind), and the merchandise is basically overpriced Wal-Mart cr*p.
IMO, Bullocks Wilshire [[pic 1) & Marshall Field's [[pics 2 & 3) were more comparable to Wanamaker's in that they were very elegant & ornate buildings. As mentioned earlier, much of the nostalgia surrounding Hudson’s is based on how classy & creative the merchandising was, combined with how civil and considerate the service was back in the day, rather than the architectural artistry of the building itself. Sadly, if JLH downtown existed today, the store & merchandise would be Macy-fied. Just like the former Field’s & Wanamaker’s stores---downsized & downscaled. Probably more appealing than the standard suburban mall store---but just a shell of its original glory
The famous eagle is still there. I took a picture next to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pffft
The Crystal Room is closed down. The salesgirl told me that food was no longer available anywhere in the store.
Glad the eagle is still there. Now that I think of it, it was brass colored...metal.
The Crystal Room is NOT closed, it is a private catering club.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
You can see some photos of the grand room here:
http://www.weddings-delval.com/crystaltearoom/
Macy's closed the in-store restaurant that was kown as "Terrace on The Court", and later "The American Cafe" shortly after they opened in the
Wanamaker building. A large Starbucks has set up shop on the first floor, and the Chesnut and 13th Street corner.
Ken