What Ilitch is sitting on

Has anyone ever compiled a list of exactly which abandoned/undeveloped property Ilitch owns/has owned until recently? [[Post-Madison-Lenox demo but including the recent taxpayer-funded demos.)

What I've got so far:
Adams Theatre [[demo'd by Ilitch)
Fine Arts Building [[demo'd by Ilitch)
Parking garage by Hotel Charlevoix [[demo'd by Ilitch)
Chin Tiki [[D.B.I.)
Moose Lodge
Detroit Life Building
United Artists Theatre
Building at Grand River and Columbia [[D.B.I.)
Building at Cass and Columbia [[D.B.I.)
Women's City Club

Seems like he's divested himself of most everything that hasn't already been saved. I know I'm missing some, though.

Forgot about the Hotel Vermont, though that came down two years ago, I think.

I thought Forbes owned the Woman's City Club?

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Originally Posted by rjlj

I thought Forbes owned the Woman's City Club?

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You're right. My mistake.

I thought the Detroit Police Department owned the Woman's City Club.

Woe is me. I thought this was going to be a joke about someone's ass.

Does Illitch own the G.A.R. Building?

while this is an interesting line of inquiry, i'm personally more curious about what ilitch holdings has its mitts on NORTH of the freeway. in my mind, resolving the "NEW OLYMPIA" issue with as little historic fabric lost is one of the more important planning decisions that need to happen downtown. i hope it happens south of the freeway so that we can begin to meaningfully take steps toward a masterplan for an integrated and mixed use lower corridor that is more dynamic and better quality than brush park.

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Originally Posted by JLeurck

Does Illitch own the G.A.R. Building?

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No. He lost the rights by sitting on it too long. For the story about who's trying to save it now: http://buildingsofdetroit.com/places/gar

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Originally Posted by detourdetroit

while this is an interesting line of inquiry, i'm personally more curious about what ilitch holdings has its mitts on NORTH of the freeway. in my mind, resolving the "NEW OLYMPIA" issue with as little historic fabric lost is one of the more important planning decisions that need to happen downtown. i hope it happens south of the freeway so that we can begin to meaningfully take steps toward a masterplan for an integrated and mixed use lower corridor that is more dynamic and better quality than brush park.

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Detour, I love you, man, but we're going to have to disagree on this. The Eddystone and Park Avenue cannot be saved. Is it physically feasible? Sure. But it's just not going to happen between the economy, the real estate market, the horrendous state of the neighborhood around them ... This is a case where it would benefit the city as a whole if these two National Register sites are razed and the arena goes there. It would help keep the Masonic afloat, help gentrify Cass Park and the area on the west side of Cass, possibly spark development interest in old Cass Tech and perhaps spark renewed interest in saving Brush Park landmarks. Would it do ALL of those things? Perhaps not. But I believe it could do some of those things. Building west of Foxtown makes little sense to me, but then again, building east of the Fox didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time, either.

North of 75 is where Ilitch will build the new Olympia Stadium.

Look at the vast vacancy between there and the Masonic Temple. He stands a better chance of making a sweeping change in that area demolishing the Eddystone, Cass Tech is coming down too. Plus there's Woodward frontage which is largely vacant. The Artisan Ballroom is the only notable building still standing there.

With the Masonic Temple and Kresge Administration building anchoring the one corner of the rectangle, and the Stadium the opposite corner.

Other parcels recently demolished such as Chin Tiki and such will be parking lots.

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Originally Posted by Lorax

North of 75 is where Ilitch will build the new Olympia Stadium.

Look at the vast vacancy between there and the Masonic Temple. He stands a better chance of making a sweeping change in that area demolishing the Eddystone, Cass Tech is coming down too. Plus there's Woodward frontage which is largely vacant. The Artisan Ballroom is the only notable building still standing there.

With the Masonic Temple and Kresge Administration building anchoring the one corner of the rectangle, and the Stadium the opposite corner.

Other parcels recently demolished such as Chin Tiki and such will be parking lots.

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D'accord, Monseiur Lorax.

Every year there's a thread that mucks up the confusing names and ownerships of the Park Ave. buildings... the Women's City Club and the Colony Club. The Forbes owned Colony Club has the beautiful 2 story Louis XV style ballroom that is often used for weddings and the like.

As for the Midtown Buildings... I hope Ilitch gets the last 6 parcels he needs to build in the west Foxtown area instead. Midtown doesn't need to lose any more of its' density [[high rises).

There was a DYES poster named Venerable who hasn't been seen here in a while. There are at least 2 old threads [[1-2 years old) where he posted every parcel [[and address) that Ilitch Holdings owned in the Foxtown/Midtown area, under more than one alias.

While on the BuildingsOf Detroit site I had the same question. Thought of it also viewing Lowells Autumn tour.

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Originally Posted by reddog289

While on the BuildingsOf Detroit site I had the same question. Thought of it also viewing Lowells Autumn tour.

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This may be off topic a bit, but I've wondered why Illitch wouldn't just put an "experiment" on one of his properties...a well lit 7-11/gas station combo, just to see if it can stick. Could it be any more risk than putting $7-18 million dollars on one of his Tiger players [[take your pick) for a year? Even with the astronomical insurance costs I doubt he'd be risking more than a few million dollars. Easy for me to say, not my money, and probably been discussed before.

Buying buildings and vacant land west of the Fox Theatre is, in my opinion, just a move to secure cheap land near his other developments.

I still contend Olympia will be built north of 75, and specifically within view of 75 and it's nearby exits/entrances.

When it was announced that he had secured the Masonic Temple, this convinced me that this was the place most likely to house a new stadium.

Also, the fact that the Fox and Comerica are on Woodward lends creedence to this theory, since economically it makes more sense to focus on Woodward frontage as a main entrance. Why not? It's Detroit's main street and land is cheap. What is great about this idea, is with the existing Masonic Temple and Kresge Administration bldg anchoring a revitalized Cass Park creates a much improved campus environment for further development of restaurants and stores.

As well, any service areas/entrances for the stadium can face the freeway rather than take away from new development that might object to facing the rear of the stadium.

I would hope, too, that the old Americana? Hotel next door to the Masonic could be preserved since it's massing compliments the Temple and park frontage.

What would be an added plus would be to preserve the Artisan Ballroom and old Greenfield's Restaurant next door, and add to the street frontage additional storefronts as a new facade for the stadium. Make these storefronts the new face of the stadium, with opened up rear entrances that would line an indoor shopping concourse, all attched to the stadium.

Since hockey is played in a domed environement, I could envision an enclosed shopping area fronting Woodward that would revitalize that part of Woodward, and would access Cass Park on the rear as well, and hopefully additional storefronts facing the park.

Turn the Masonic into a hotel joined to the Americana next door and you'd have a super nucleus of urbanity marching up Woodward Avenue. And while we're at it, convert the old Cass Tech into a parking garage by retaining the facades only. It could double as parking for the school as well.

http://www.theverifiabletruth.com/

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Originally Posted by Lorax

North of 75 is where Ilitch will build the new Olympia Stadium.

Look at the vast vacancy between there and the Masonic Temple. He stands a better chance of making a sweeping change in that area demolishing the Eddystone, Cass Tech is coming down too. Plus there's Woodward frontage which is largely vacant. The Artisan Ballroom is the only notable building still standing there.

With the Masonic Temple and Kresge Administration building anchoring the one corner of the rectangle, and the Stadium the opposite corner.

Other parcels recently demolished such as Chin Tiki and such will be parking lots.

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He is unlikely to build the arena north of I-75. A very reliable source told me a couple years ago that he wants to keep it on the south side to help in the continued redevelopment of the Foxtown/Grand Circus Park area. It is not a coincidence that a number of buildings behind the Fox have been renovated over the past couple years. He is still trying to aquire a few pieces of land integral to any potential project though. The source also told me that the arena was to coincide with a redevelopment of the Stadler and UA/Tuller Blocks on Grand Circus Park as a bigger entertainment project, but then the economy went south.

Some Canadian on here said he thinks that there will be an arena connected to Motor City Casino. This is largely false, as this would link Mike's name with the casino, something that is heavily frowned upon by Major League Baseball. The Ilitches remain heavily dedicated to improving their immediate neighborhood surrounding the Fox, per a quote from Ilitch communications officer Karen Cullen, [[I will try and find the quote) reaffirming my source's info.

i've thought a while on this...not that it makes much difference! but after going back and forth across the freeway in terms of siting for NEW OLYMPIA, i've come down on the side of south of the freeway...but i'll concede there is a bit of "six to half a dozen" distinctions between the two.

my reasoning for south of the freeway is twofold:

1) now that we've gone down the road of stadium district [[which i didn't think was a good concept at its onset), we've now committed so much, it would be nice to concentrate this final piece into the district, fill in wowoodward and make it truly link with the other entertainment facilities nearby. adjacencies and parking facilities should be maximized as shared resources. suburbans could walk from site to site to bar more easily and mitigate somewhat the need for more of the evil parking. site prep and demolition money could be used to help integrate or more interestingly move moose to park avenue to help fill in the missing teeth there. maybe finally that's where house of blues could locate or some similar venture. having a jazz recital hall would be a great compliment to the burgeoning district that is anchored by cliff bells and towne pump. a tighter site could provide more interesting architecture, as would an OLYMPIA-appropriate Grand River frontage.

2) having NEW OLYMPIA south finally provides the real impetus for holistic master planning of south corridor on the north. this area i believe should be a continuation of the development that is marching slowly south from WSU/Med Center and should service a truly urban population. foundations are clamoring to develop the institutional will for a "15/15" plan - 15,000 college educated by 2015 in the midtown area. brush park should absoultely be finished first as it has been through the infrastructural remediation that needs to occur. while that development is marching through phases II and beyond, lower cooridor should be reimagined. yes, many of the nso's and flop houses need to be moved or consolidated and, yes, there probably needs to be some strategic but "surgical" demolition. phasing and infrastructure improvements can then begin. as we know, since most five star demos are political and not because of structural deficits, having a well grounded population-driven master plan framing development, i'd argue that detroit would be better served to hold on to as much of the quality architecture in that area it can [[including cass, eddystone, etc), to serve as anchoring elements and areas to help frame phased growth. even though it was frought with problems, i'm much happier with carlton, etc. in place and habitable after it was left for dead on the other side of woodward to help provide some context. as much respect i have for gleiberman and friends take on phase I, the product, frankly kinda sucks and i would have much preferred using carmel hall as urban basis for the area. now i realize that there are dire economic realities we're facing, but if we recast and align multiple resources on midtown [[and the unrealized potential of residential opportunities downtown) as the one place in state where we're going to actually create a viable, urban, walkable city based on mixed use principles and capture a segment of the in-place workforce, that's the way to go imho.

...a third option...consider for a moment to accommodate NEW OLYMPIA...and a true suture of the wound...would be decking over one of the freeways. here we'd destroy no fabric and offer a very intriguing and HIGLY VISIBLE opportunity for the ilitch clan. imagine a Grand River appropriate frontage next to motor city casino on the lodge, or on Woodward next to the fox.

all just the fevered mumblings of a detoured detroiter...

Detourdetroit... I agree with your ideas... as much as there is lots of empty space between the Fisher Fwy. and the Eddystone... it is not all owned by Ilitch Holdings. I'm not sure that even a majority of the land area is owned by them... but it is mostly empty land.

However in the west Foxtown area the majority of the land between [[just west of) Park Ave. and Grand River Ave., between Montcalm and W. Adams is Ilitch owned. Last I saw... there were 7 parcels that prevented an arena footprint... the infamous 3 Alibri heirs parcels, 3 other parcels [[owned by 1 person) along the north side of Adams [[between Cass & Clifford I believe), and the CC Bar.

If these cannot be obtained, then perhaps the footprint can move slightly farther west... where Cass Ave. becomes a "roundabout" of sorts [[a better term would be one way perimeter drive) around the arena footprint in the middle of Cass. Detourdetroit, I also was thinking about how the Moose Lodge could be moved [[the Gem/Century way) as infill over to Park Ave.

I'm not sure building the arena next to MotorCity Casino is a good idea. There's the issue of free [[casino patrons) versus paid [[arena patrons) parking. And then there's the after game casino rush. I'm not sure how that sudden surge in casino attendance can be handled by a 3 shift 24/7 operation. It could become a hindrance and keep regular patrons away on busy game nights.

But I do think that Ilitch is going to be playing different sites against each other, as possible leverage against holdout sellers.

And I would not want to be a holdout seller if the arena footprint had to be moved slightly in that area to accommodate the holdouts... I could see them being purposefully boxed in by parking structures.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there really enough room south of 75 to support a new arena and the attendant parking? Assuming the Grand Circus Park frontage is one day filled in with buildings matching the park wall of buildings currently there?

I could see it if the UA and the Michigan were removed, and possibly the GAR, but the parcels seem too disjointed to really be of much use except for parking or "future development."

Just an armchair point of view here, but I still think the Wooward frontage is key, as it has made Comerica Park much more visible and easily identifiable, whereas Ford Field is largely unseen and to my thinking is sort of there just looming in the background.

This is what I believe would happen with a new Olympia sited south of 75. There is no way to really keep an open sweep of sight lines, and may have an underwhelming impact when tucked into a largely disjointed, isolated area.

Building it where the old Motown/Donovan building was, as I mentioned in my previous post, set back on this monstrous piece of vacant property would tie it in to Cass Park, give it a sweeping presence on Woodward, and give people a reason to cross over 75 if there are attendant restaurants and shops as part of the deal. Parking could easily be integrated, and as I mentioned, converting old Cass Tech into a parking structure, preserving the best part of the building, it's exterior.

Just a few thoughts.

Well first off, Ilitch does not own the land where the Donovan building used to sit, as of last time I heard. Second, Parking was an issue when Comerica and Ford Field both first opened, since then, it has been fine. A large parking structure would be built bordering the freeway to support the arena. The arena, as the old Olympia did, could very well face Grand River, next to the GAR.

It is no coincidence that, prior to the economy collapsing, the Ilitches were planning on renovating the Detroit Life Building, tearing down the Adams Theatre and the Fine Arts Building, saving the facade.

They were planning on announcing the new arena rather soon, but now the economy has put a damper on things, and the Fine Arts Facade hangs in the balance, and had they made their announcement by now, the Fine Arts Facade may not face the uncertain future that it now does, as they were expecting some interest in developing behind the facade, but without a certain arena, there is no interest.

The Ilitches are also thought to be cleaning up the United Artists Theatre, possibly preparing it for a renovation. Ilitch would have to own land north of I-75 for that to be a reality, and while he may own some, he is far more concerned with the area immediately neighboring Foxtown. I thought it was crazy too, but after I had seen some drawings of what it could be like with a 'New Olympia' off of Grand River or Adams, I was no longer skeptical.

All of the signs point to the arena being in the GCP area, whether off of Grand River or off of Adams, we will see what happens.

If the Ilitches don't own the property north of 75, how much could it possibly cost? Assembling parcels in Detroit, especially for a billionaire is the least of his problems I would think.

Does anyone really think there isn't a single vacant parcel of land in Detroit that cannot be bought?

You mention placing the stadium next to the GAR- I still don't see how it's a good fit- perhaps hockey stadiums are smaller than I thought. And I don't think the Ilitches own the GAR- not yet anyway!

This is all interesting speculation, but speculation at best. Until they decide to announce, it's all hypothetical.

I still think the Masonic Temple must play into this somehow- why else would the Ilitches care to take on this monster? Unless it's to control the stage there, and keep it from competing with the Fox.

lorax, you answered both of your own questions in terms of arena size and ilitch intent.

Lorax, you may be correct that Ilitch is buying land west of the Fox in order to pick up cheap land close to his other businesses. Who knows what they have in mind? Keep in mind, however, that Ilitch paid $1.6 million last year for a .17 acre piece with a tear-down building on it, adding to the cost. That's $236 a sq ft [[I don't have my calculator handy) , the highest price for land in downtown, ever, that I've heard of.

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Originally Posted by Lorax

You mention placing the stadium next to the GAR- I still don't see how it's a good fit- perhaps hockey stadiums are smaller than I thought. And I don't think the Ilitches own the GAR- not yet anyway!

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Ilitch lost his option on the GAR. It's now being pursued by Mindfield USA for its headquarters. Details at: http://www.buildingsofdetroit.com/places/gar

Wow! Great news about the GAR. It deserves a full renovation.

As far as the Ilitches, don't forget, even at the price he paid for that parcel, what's Ilitch's net worth?

1.5 BILLION dollars. That's 1,500 million bucks. He's #242 on Forbes Magazine list of the 400 wealthiest Americans.

There is nothing he cannot afford to buy or restore in Detroit. And he has the werewithal to borrow what he needs to do it, never touching his own money.

The UA could be restored at the stroke of a pen top to bottom, and it wouldn't dent his net worth.

What I think is lost on many is as much as we love to think of our sports team owners as "one of us" in reality their wealth separates them to such a degree, and I'm not intending this as a slam, but we need to keep perspective here.

I admire anyone who can build such an empire, and largely it has been a good thing for Detroit and Michigan. But realize he can build Olympia anywhere he wants to, and can afford to do it, even if he occasionally overpays for a parcel here and there.

A business owner in Cass Corridor told me that Illitch just bought out the Taxi business on Cass and Clifford for 2 million. They were told that Illitch plans on building the stadium south of the freeway, but wants to obtain the property north of 75 so that he can put in a large scale parking garage and a heated walkway across the freeway [[nice!), and because he wants control over what gets developed around all of this. Buying the property before any big announcements are made makes sense. He gets all the land he wants at bargain prices and protects his investments from "undesirable" places and people, ie: low-income.

The business owners also told me they are gravely concerned about their own situation. They are scared that if they refuse an offer by Illitch that he'll have their business burned down. Apparently this happened to a greek guy's business where Comerica Park went. The guy couldn't even collect on his insurance policy because "someone" called and cancelled it a few days before.

Personally I'm kinda sick of Illitch buying up everything thats worth anything and turning Detroit into his own personal playground. I appreciate his business and everything, but it is NOT WISE for us to give so much control over our major assets to one business or indivdual. Plus, I was really hoping that Cass Corridor would remain, rising from the ashes by the very people who are willing to make it their home and invest in it's turn around, something we Detroiters could all be proud of. But everytime someone tries to buy one of the apartment building down there to rehab, they get stonewalled by red tape and bullshit. We should get more say in the development of our neighborhoods, and people do currently live in the corridor that are active in an attempt to take ownership of their neighborhood. If any of them are reading this, I support you guys all the way.

Buildingsofdetroit, I am offended by your light use of the word GENTRIFICATION. Hundreds of low income people have already been forcibly removed from that area with no affordable housing available to them and their children. The Corridor's NSO, DRMM, and COTS are all full to the brim because they have no other place to go, and I wonder where you think those places and people should be "genrified" to if you think they aren't good enought to be where they are now.

Detroitsgwenivere, I don't think that the Ilitch clan would succumb to a Mafia style "burn down" of a building. I know of no building in the large stadia footprint that was burned down while Wayne County was using Eminent Domain [[which can't be used any more for building venues) to buy the land for the stadia in the 1990s.

Marion Ilitch [[and thru joint ownerships, her husband) had to pass the state background checks in order for Marion Ilitch to get a casino license back then... so any Ilitch activity that remotely smells illegal would have denied her a license.

The Ilitch's may be milking the system to get public grants and loans, but that's not an illegal activity. However, if someone gets into their way... they can be stubborn and vindictive... in a legal way. When the owner of the Women's Exchange Building along E. Adams went to court [[against the county) to prevent inclusion in the stadia footprint [[for use as a decorative sidewalk!), the building owners won the court decision. However, the Ilitch's got the last laugh [[of sorts) by not even talking with the owners when the building owners needed additional parking spaces for any redevelopment of the Women's Exchange Building.... that is until Red Wing Chris Chelios got involved in redeveloping that site.

I think that the worst that would happen [[as I already mentioned) is that any landowners that were holdouts, and required the Arena site to be adjusted... would be "built around"... so that their land would not be as desirable for any future endeavor.

In the last 3 years there have been many DYES threads that have aerial shots of the west Foxtown area showing both the Joe Louis footprint as fitting in behind the Fox [[north of Adams Ave.). It was even possible to fit them [[tightly) west of Cass into the triangle of land between Cass, Fisher Fwy Service Drive and Grand River. Even the slightly larger footprint of the Palace fits in west Foxtown.

As for being a billionaire and paying any amount to buy up the land... that's what holdout landowners want. They don't want [[as 3WC mentioned) $2+ million for their tiny site... but probably $10 million plus. Just look at the failed riverfront casino land acquisition... just part of the land needed cost $150 million!

The Ilitch's aren't telling anyone about what they plan for the United Artists complex nor what their plans are for the Fine Arts Building facade... for one very good reason... it will only drive the price of holdout land higher than it already is.

Some posters here think that because Mike Ilitch now controls bookings at Masonic, that he is going to build his arena near there.

The Masonic folks were unhappy with the Nederlander organization for the lack of shows at the Masonic [[ergo fewer dollars for Masonic) And Mike & Marion Ilitch didn't want to see another giant empty hulk overlooking their casino and entertainment empire.

So Mike Ilitch paid the [[what was to him) paltry utility bills of the Masonic, got control of the bookings for the 4,404 seat Masonic Theatre and 1,585 seat Scottish Rite Theatre, and had the Masons stay in the building. This way he got control of the 2 theatres without having to be the owner [[and pay taxes) on a very large tax hog.

Plus he got the added bonus of using Midtown as an alternative site for a new arena, in case west Foxtown didn't pan out. Also, this pits 2 or more sites against each other... thus giving the uber-greedy remaining land owners something to think about.... take the gamble and sell or holdout and end up like the holdout riverfront casino landowners. :[[

Gistok, How are the land owners considered uber-greedy when many of them had rightfully purchased those parcels with the intention of making a living or making a large profit. That's the name of the game, is it not? When Mike Illitch comes knocking at my door and all of my neighbor's doors with an offer to buy, he's looking at doing something that will make him some serious money. I ain't gotta wear a watch and I know what time it is.

And as far as "mafia" style tactics go, it's no secret that Illich Holdings has been suspected of participating in some shady shit to get what they want. I've heard things from DP &D and BS&E about strange "coincidences" and orders from the mayors office over the years to keep mouths shut or else. To me that's as good as the horses mouth, and I don't know who you talk to....... maybe you work for Illitch?

As far as the fire story goes, that's what I was told by someone else. I will take some time to find out more about it and post what I find. I do know this, people with money never get caught holding the lighter or the gascan, they just pay someone else to do it, and I've seen way too much bad shit go down involving city employees and cops to know that they aren't doing this stuff because they have nothing better to do. Someone is footing the bill, so don't tell me that people like Illitch aren't capable of these kinds of acts. I KNOW they are, I've seen it with my own 2 eyes.

Paltry utility bills paid in exchange for control of 2 major city landmarks? That's quite a deal if I may say so. I'm sorry but I don't care if he doesn't like empty hulks overlooking his city, I mean his "empire." Tell that to the hundreds of Corktowners that had to stare at that empty hulk of a stadium for over 10 years while Illitch was given millions of taxpayer dollars to keep it up, only to watch it fall into extreme disrepair and be broken into time and time again. When Greater Corktown Development Corp. came forward with a plan to save and re-develop the stadium, Illitch never came to their aid once.

I see those people for who they really are, uber-rich business people with their own interests at the core of every development they invest in, not ours. Detroiters interests are who I will always fight to protect first and foremost, because if anything ever happens to Mr. Illitch and his "empire," it will be us left holding the bag, not him.

In spite of what some posters here claim, and regardless of the "head fake" of buying up land north of 75 to muddy the intentions, the land north of 75 is largely city owned, and therefore cheaper to buy with relatively few private holdouts as opposed to south of 75.

And this wouldn't even be a thought if the Ilitches weren't involved in the Masonic Temple.

Visually and impact wise north of 75 makes more sense, and pulls midtown and downtown development even closer.

If Olympia ends up being built south of 75 it will be a mistake.

Property monopolized or in the Possession of a few is a Curse to Mankind...

John Adams




[[with all due respect to Michael Moore)

Wow, and to think Adams was a conservative! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Lorax

In spite of what some posters here claim, and regardless of the "head fake" of buying up land north of 75 to muddy the intentions, the land north of 75 is largely city owned, and therefore cheaper to buy with relatively few private holdouts as opposed to south of 75.

And this wouldn't even be a thought if the Ilitches weren't involved in the Masonic Temple.

Visually and impact wise north of 75 makes more sense, and pulls midtown and downtown development even closer.

If Olympia ends up being built south of 75 it will be a mistake.

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Downtown and Midtown are so far from being drawn together it isn't even a thought. Even downtown, you have a bunch of little spots where there are modest developments at best. There is the business district, Greektown, Campus Martius, Foxtown and thanks to the Book-Cadillac, Washington Blvd is slowly making a comeback. In between each of these developments are bunches of abandoned buildings which eventually need to be filled in. An arena on GCP would help to connect Washington Blvd and GCP/Foxtown.

Building an arena north of I-75 only means another one of these developments without any connection to the others. Building in Foxtown makes the most sense, because it will make it a center gathering area, then development can grow out from there. North of I-75, there wont really be as much development nearby as a direct result. In Foxtown, Ilitch will own the land, develop it and the whole GCP area will benefit, including the UA and Washington Blvd.

How do you think Detroit got so messed up in the first place?? Because everybody wanted their own little space and so they disconnected themselves from the rest of the city/region. That is why the suburbs are so spread apart. Yesterday the former mayor of Pittsburgh spoke in Detroit. Pittsburgh has already been through what Detroit is now really experiencing. Pittsburgh rebuilt themselves from downtown out, and this is what Detroit needs to do. I would love to see them build out towards midtown, but until the demand is there to occupy the space between downtown and midtown, nothing will happen, and it would end up requiring a multi-billion dollar investment to even start to bring the two together, and that is not something that the area can support.

Detroitsgwenivere... LOL... many of the oldtimers on this forum [[like myself, who have posted for many years)... know that I'm no Ilitch shill or patsy... nor do I work for them. I've given them their fair share of critcism for the shady way their Madison-Lenox came down, and the appalling way that they have been "benign neglectors" of the Fine Arts/Adams and United Artists Buildings.

And I also know that they are doing mysterious work on the United Artists complex without pulling any city permits, which other business owners would not be able to get away with.

However, that said... I have not heard of a single "shady deal" involving the Ilitch's and any fires downtown... such as the infamous Steven West, former owner of the fire prone Federal's Department Stores.

I would gladly like to see some facts, or newsclip or even blog that mentions any mysterious Ilitch goings on... besides their insatiable hunger for feeding at the public trough to do demo work, and their land banking...

And as for the Masonic Temple and Tiger Stadium.... first of all I didn't see anyone else lining up to pay their bills... once the remaining Masons would have left the buildings... they would have hightailed it to the suburbs so fast it would have made your head spin.... and the 1038 room monolith would have ended up like downtown Hudson's... an empty building, almost too big for many other uses. And as for Tiger Stadium... it was city owned...

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Originally Posted by esp1986

Building an arena north of I-75 only means another one of these developments without any connection to the others. Building in Foxtown makes the most sense, because it will make it a center gathering area, then development can grow out from there. North of I-75, there wont really be as much development nearby as a direct result. In Foxtown, Ilitch will own the land, develop it and the whole GCP area will benefit, including the UA and Washington Blvd.

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Wasn't something similar said in regards to the location of Comerica Park 12 years ago?

Not sure if anyone here ever referenced this but here's a link to a map that's pretty comprehensive and shows a number of parcels and buildings owned by various Ilitch enterprises.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...8C8240620F!213

And also as a point of reference this link takes you to a rather comprehensive list of enterprises believed to be owned or controlled by the Ilitch Family and/or their casino syndicator partner Michael Malik http://www.theverifiabletruth.com/20...ch-casino.html

Opps... I called him Venerable... but he is Verifiable [[not quite sainthood material :D).

Welcome back Verifiable. Although I don't always agree with your view towards the Ilitch's [[and have stated so before), you do provide a valuable resource to this forum on what the Ilitch empire consists of.

As can be seen with your most recent updates... the Ilitch's have been very busy buying up land downtown/midtown. Some new folks who are not familiar with your prior postings on the old forum will likely be amazed at the amount of work you put into your "Ilitch Land Bank" research...

Thats a hellava list. If I were in his shoes I wouldn't be able to keep track of all that stuff.

Verifiable... #182 and #185 on your list [[the 2 Shapiro parcels on the Tuller Block) have been confirmed to now be Ilitch owned [[they own the entire Tuller/UA block).

Empty parking lots #178, #179 and #180 [[owned by Freda Alibri heirs) are the real stumbling blocks to a west Foxtown arena. Empty parking lots #193-#197 [[Sheehan owned), empty parking lots #201 & #203, and #202 [[The CC Bar) are also within the most likely arena site... although on the periphery.

When I say "most likely arena site"... that means the site with the least amount of required demolition [[west of the Park Ave. buildings and east of Cass, with Adams on the south and Montcalm on the north). Most of that 4 block area has already been cleared. Only demo work required in that site would be the CC Bar.

In the past folks have overlayed both JLA and the Palace to see if they would fit on the map in the area I just mentioned... and they both did [[parking not included).

That is a good list. Thanks Verifiable for posting that, and the update from Gistok.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

When I say "most likely arena site"... that means the site with the least amount of required demolition [[west of the Park Ave. buildings and east of Cass, with Adams on the south and Montcalm on the north). Most of that 4 block area has already been cleared. Only demo work required in that site would be the CC Bar.

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Maybe the only demo work above ground, but there's still a crap-load of work to do below ground in that area.

Hey, folks, anyone notice the number of parcels owned north of 75?

I still say it's best built north of 75, and that will be the plan going forward.

This is a hilarious thread. Why no mention of unicorns or fairies?

There is no "New Olympia Arena".

No arena exists in the area, and no arena is planned [[except on DYes, of course).

The Wings already have a good arena and a good lease, and if they want a newer arena and more favorable lease, there's the very lucrative Palace [[among the two or three best in the country).

The Illitches will not spend a half-billion dollars and eviserate their fortune for a money-losing arena when the metro area already has two that are more than adequate. There would be absolutely no bottom-line benefit.

There is no city in the country with two modern, profitable arenas. To think that Detroit could be the one exception to the rule, especially in this economy, is absurd. To think that one of these arenas would be built in the badlands of the Cass Corridor defies all logic.

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Originally Posted by crawford

This is a hilarious thread. Why no mention of unicorns or fairies?

There is no "New Olympia Arena".

No arena exists in the area, and no arena is planned [[except on DYes, of course).

The Wings already have a good arena and a good lease, and if they want a newer arena and more favorable lease, there's the very lucrative Palace [[among the two or three best in the country).

The Illitches will not spend a half-billion dollars and eviserate their fortune for a money-losing arena when the metro area already has two that are more than adequate. There would be absolutely no bottom-line benefit.

There is no city in the country with two modern, profitable arenas. To think that Detroit could be the one exception to the rule, especially in this economy, is absurd. To think that one of these arenas would be built in the badlands of the Cass Corridor defies all logic.

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The Illitches will not be spending much, if any, of "their" money on the arena. It will be "our" money that funds it.

I will second Gistok's welcome back to Verifiable. Great work on your blog regarding the Ilitch empire.

My little birdies have been chirping 'north of I-75' all along. Recent acquistions and closing down of properties in that area, some of which are shown on the Autumn Tour, are lending weight to that move.

It makes a lot of sense from a prominent visiblity POV being on Woodward with a parking/ground floor retail on the Donovan/Motown site that would serve both the Tigers and Wings. It is far more attractive than being on back streets, like the Joe is now.

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Originally Posted by crawford

This is a hilarious thread. Why no mention of unicorns or fairies?

There is no "New Olympia Arena".

No arena exists in the area, and no arena is planned [[except on DYes, of course).

The Wings already have a good arena and a good lease, and if they want a newer arena and more favorable lease, there's the very lucrative Palace [[among the two or three best in the country).

The Illitches will not spend a half-billion dollars and eviserate their fortune for a money-losing arena when the metro area already has two that are more than adequate. There would be absolutely no bottom-line benefit.

There is no city in the country with two modern, profitable arenas. To think that Detroit could be the one exception to the rule, especially in this economy, is absurd. To think that one of these arenas would be built in the badlands of the Cass Corridor defies all logic.

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Ignorance is bliss. I do not even know where to start here.

1) 'The Joe' is not a good arena... it is among the worst in the NHL, only the team makes it good... once the Penguins get their new arena, JLA will be the worst in the NHL.

2) The Red Wings do not have a 'good lease.' They do for one year, after which time, they will not have a lease at all.

3) The Red Wings will not play at the Palace, not for more than a year at least, if JLA is renovated. Mike Ilitch has built his empire downtown, and that is where it will stay.

4) Detroit only has one arena. The Palace, on a good day is 45 minutes from dowtown, hardly Detroit.

5) Joe Louis Arena is far from adequate for modern standards, which is why the Palace always has the best acts that come to town. Any new arena, would be a state of the art facility, replacing the dilapidated JLA, and one-upping the Palace to lure the best acts downtown.

6) 'The Joe' may have the worst location downtown, with no developable space around it, landlocked and separated from downtown by Cobo Center. Any new arena will spur development around it and turn the area into another entertainment hub, rationalizing the investment.

Someone needs to do some research...

Esp1986, I would characterize Crawford's "Turd in the Punchbowl" way of posting about arenas as "bliss"... it's more like Alzheimer's. :rolleyes:

He probably did a cut/paste of his comments from the previous Arena thread. He was proven wrong then about his "Detroit can't handle 2 arenas mantra"... and obviously forgot about that part of the thread. No need to go into all the national statistics about arenas all over again. Maybe if he goes back and rereads the previous thread completely... he'll catch up to speed... :D

Most everyone else knows that if the Ilitch's were interested in staying at JLA, then they wouldn't have negotiated a year-by-year extension of their previous long term contract.

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This is a hilarious thread. Why no mention of unicorns or fairies?

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Some of these folks should be hired by Illitch holdings.

I agree the Joe is a terrible location, tear it down or incorporate it into the new expanded Cobo Hall.

Thanks Lowell, for supporting my long held belief that any new arena will be built with Woodward frontage- and north of 75.

It only makes sense, since the Ilitches have been accumulating properties in and around the Cass Park area for a while now, and the Masonic announcement only adds to this.

Logic dictates- why would they build an arena on back streets when the visual impact [[and ego boost) of having Woodward frontage as Comerica Park does would be just as easy, perhaps easier, considering there is already so much vacant land there already?

It would be a real nucleus of activity, and while JLA is probably doomed from many angles- design, location, and the fact that Cobo will need this land for expansion- seems a done deal to me.

The Palace is great and all, but we know LBP will have his way and convert it, or the Silverdome into an expo center for Oakland County, should Cobo fail to get it's act together.

My two cents--
[[a young prrson from the burbs living, working and going to school in the city of Detroit)

1 -- If the JLA is not renovated, what will happen to the People Mover station? I noticed the PM brings many Wings fans to greektown while I working at Cold Stone [[dont go there, the owners are NOT good people).

2 -- What about the Old Tiger Stadium site? I think that is a great location, ample land for a stadium and parking. Why has no one mentioned this? I also think it would be a good location to bring back the *Detroit* Pistons from Auburn Hill's sprawland. But this is a more distant goal.

3 -- As far as north of the Fisher Fwy vs. South, i see costs and benifits in both. But either way it is going to create yet another superblock, basically creating a wall around downtown made up of Cobo, MGM, freeways, the ren cen, Comerica park and Ford field. Not an urbanists dream at all.

4 -- Connecting Downtown with Midown and other "downtown" neighborhoods is critically important. If we think of Midtown and Downtown as one thing... does it make sense to create more overwhelming physical barriers seperating the two areas? Pehaps the light rail will aid this, as well as the redevelopment of the lower corridor. All the economy arguments are void once the rail goes through... development will likely boom. Midtown/Downtown/New Center is the single most important area to redevelop not only in Detroit but in Michigan as a whole. We have no other large truely urban areas in the state.

Casscorridor... I think that #2 on your list explains why the residents of Corktown DON'T want a new arena in their neighborhood.

When Tiger Stadium was the ballpark, over decades it caused the demolition of MANY of the homes in the Corktown area, as the land was worth $$$ for parking spots. There were many blighted weed infested empty lots [[empty, except on game days).

Since the Tigers moved to Comerica Park, new infill housing has helped heal many of the neighborhoods gaps in the housing stock. So an arena would be the worst thing for that area.

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

2 -- What about the Old Tiger Stadium site? I think that is a great location, ample land for a stadium and parking. Why has no one mentioned this? I also think it would be a good location to bring back the *Detroit* Pistons from Auburn Hill's sprawland. But this is a more distant goal.

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Couple of reasons I can think of:
1) Ilitch doesn't already own the land around the Tiger Stadium site. He owns almost everything in that part of town, so he can charge fans $25 a car year-round as opposed to just during the summer and football season.
2) The fact that the demo crews had to go out of their way to NOT destroy the field during demo makes it seem like the field would be preserved in any future use.
3) Negative stigma of building on sacred ground.
4) He's going to want his hockey team to play near either his casino or his parking lots or Hockeytown restaurant. He wants fans spending their money on his turf, not in others' shops, etc.
5) It's far more "impressive" to flex his empire's muscles with the Fox, Comerica Park, et al to be concentrated in one area.

Exactly right. This is why I see the north of 75 solution as most viable, since it will accomplish a couple of things- it can be designed in such a way, hopefully set back from Woodward as Comerica is, and perhaps a collection of semi-connected store fronts could be built in front, facing woodward, with large landscaped plazas linking woodward to the stadium [[or stadia in the case that Comerica could benefit from this treatment as well).

I see another collection of storefronts/restaurants on the rear of the stadium facing Cass Park, enclosing the parkline with facades in keeping with the Masonic and Kresge buildings, and hopefully renovating the old Americana Hotel into a useful building again.

Old Cass Tech could become a parking structure, since the only interesting part of it is the outside, and would keep a large looming concrete box from being built in it's place.

It would have the appearance, if done correctly, of some of Piranesi's ancient views of the Colosseum in Rome, where later generations built up shops and park settings around the old building, which served as a backdrop. In this case, the stadia are new buildings with attendant new structures.

Lots of good thinking and thoughts on this thread. I personally think that Joe Louis Arena is gonna be part of the "New Cobo" within the next 10 years. I see a new Arena west of the Fox and south of 75, But thats just my opinion. As for the Pistons moving back I don't see that happening, and while the Michigan /Trumbell corner might be a good site. I did talk to one business owner who was glad that the Tigers were leaving. He thought of having a more year round deal, not just the 80 games a year plan.
What ever the deal might be. It don't make sense to build up a land bank for no reason other than to build something.This is one of thouse "Wait and See" things.
While I never saw a Wings game at the Olympia,I love that place. I spent many nights at the Joe.And if I had to rate the four sports venues, The Joe ranks last.
And to steal from another thread, Follow the Money rings a Bell. If you owned a business and could get someone to help build you a new building and can get a better deal then where you are at, you would be a fool not to do it.

What Ilitch is sitting on?

His hands until he can get a tax payer financed new red wings stadium.

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Originally Posted by Lorax

Exactly right. This is why I see the north of 75 solution as most viable

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First, love the Cass Tech parking idea, though I don't know if structurally it could be converted to that purpose. While gutting it would be tough - a la Michigan Theatre without the pomp - it's the best and most viable idea I've seen floated for it [[so long as its infrastructure can hold cars).

Here's another reason I forgot to mention. Remember that Ilitch was rumored to have bought the Hotel Eddystone and Park Ave. Plus, he's invested himself in the Masonic Temple. On top of that, one of my acquaintances, whom I trust, said that he had this friend who owned two homes on Cass just south of Temple. Well, a few years ago he shot someone on his porch who was coming after him or something and then went to jail for a bit before being freed for defending his property. This was a pretty big story if any of you remember it. ANYWAY, this acquaintance told me that he was looking to get away from the 'hood because of this experience and Ilitch bought his homes for more than $200,000 for the pair. Now, those are nice looking homes, but I don't see Ilitch moving into the Corridor anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Lorax

...the visual impact [[and ego boost) of having Woodward frontage as Comerica Park does...

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Actually, Comerica Park's frontage is on Witherell, the ballyard's erroneous address notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

As far as north of the Fisher Fwy vs. South, i see costs and benefits in both. But either way it is going to create yet another superblock, basically creating a wall around downtown ... Not an urbanists dream at all.

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Do you really think that Ilitch [[or any other wealthy person with the means to redevelop downtown Detroit) cares about the negative points of creating another superblock? Ilitch and his planning people have suburban mindsets. You will get a big-box configuration surrounded by a vast sea of parking asphalt with the new Pizza Pizza Arena [[wherever it ends up), and you will like it. End of story.

I thought the Cass Tech parking idea was good too, and since it's built like a brick sh**house, it should be able to hold autos, but an engineering study will have to take place first, naturally.

PizzaPizza arena?! Hilarious.....:D