Incoming.....
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...t-water-crisis
https://apnews.com/article/Flint-lea...0e37a06a82f08d
Printable View
I know there's the megathread, but I can't find it.
To the mod, if you so choose, please merge with that thread, bump it and update accordingly:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...es/6642737002/
2021 already starting off on a good note!!! :cool:
I also posted the same an hour ago. Merge these two if need be.
I'm not surprised.
I think this was the old thread:
Discuss Detroit » While in Flint, Don't drink their water
This is a classic example of businessmen thinking they can run government better, saving taxpayers money with a solution that ends up costing way more than it saved. [[Not to mention all the unnecessary medical problems.)
No word on what charges yet though.
It's about time. Why did it take this long? He's culpable, but his buddies took the fall for him.
That one tough nerd is getting thrown in the high school locker.
As someone who lived in Flint during the water crisis and who lost significant value on my home when I sold it, I say it is about friggen time. My job puts me in contact with people affected by the water crisis everyday, I sat across the table from Rick Snyder and Nick Lyons as they denied any culpability. My biggest regret was not slapping away their hands when the reached out to shake mine. [[I guess that kept me employed, lol)
Yep, That's what he gets for appointing a loser to a position of authority.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyd...outputType=amp
^ Ah, yes Earley who later found his way to become of the the EFM of Detroit Public Schools.
^^^ You might want to correct the name early on.
^ Did that. Thank yah.
...so supporting Joe Biden bought him no leniency. Good lesson to know when one desires to reach across the aisle to "work with the other side".
It's great to see how shallow people's memories are when they forget Two Penney Jenney left a fiscal mess he cleaned up.
Remember... that fiscal mess was nationwide... and it was called the Great Recession. No fan of Granholm [[our next Energy Secretary), but it wasn't her fault the meltdown happened across the country. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrenite84
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
People are saying he's going to be arrested?
If so, when will this happen? Would love to see his mugshot.
Going after Rick is fine, but I want to know why no one went after General Motors for polluting the Flint River? And if GM didn't pollute the river, then who did?
Flint crisis had nothing to do with the pollution of the river and everything to do with the pipes and the water being untreated.
Correct... the problem was in not spending $100 to add an additive to the water [[not sure if that was a daily amount)... that prevented people's home pipes from corroding. The pipe corrosion is what caused the poisoning... could have been prevented with the additive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satiricalivory
Obviously he can afford the best attorneys. I haven’t heard much about the case but I would seriously doubt he is going to be convicted of, or plead guilty to a felony. Of course, his attorney fees are going to astronomical, but that’s just the way it goes.
The failure to add a protective additive isn't the only problem facing Snyder. At least 12 people, and perhaps one hundred more, died after Flint switched its water supplier from Legionnaires disease. Snyder's office was aware of the disease, yet covered up the deaths for months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Unlike lead poisoning, Legionnaires is curable with a timely treatment of antibiotics. Snyder should look good in an orange jumpsuit.
It was all about getting off of the DWSD System no matter the consequences. Lock him up!
Snyder's indictment: https://www.michigan.gov/documents/a...R_712955_7.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCR of linked document
Also, here's the rest of the crew......https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...o-was-charged/
What are the odds of someone convicted of any 1st offence misdemeanor charge, let alone a former governor, actually going to jail?Quote:
Originally Posted by enio
Damn shame he continued to live his privileged life, 7 years after that fiasco that he knew about and denied vehemently....Quote:
Originally Posted by gumby
He's not going to jail. He might get off paying a fine, and you'll never hear anything else about it. Yet all those people lost life and have health issues because of his negligence.Quote:
Originally Posted by 401don
He doesn't have to go to jail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
I'll just be happy if he's convicted, for posterity.
From Maof's link:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
Seems too light considering what damage there was.Quote:
Richard Snyder – Former Governor of Michigan
Two counts of willful neglect of duty – each a one-year misdemeanor and/or $1,000 fine
They’re charging him with two misdemeanors? That’s all they have? You got to be kidding.
With how much delegation comes inherent in a position like that, it's hard to connect people directly to stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
What have you done, Snyder you nerd? What kind of a leader are you?
Contrarian point of view...
Snyder made a mistake. He was trying to do something good for the abused citizenry of Flint by improving water. He underestimated the problem. He made a mistake, but in good faith.
If he was malicious, then by all means work for justice.
But this smells like political theatre to me. Get the bad Republican. Impeach him, I mean Snyder.
I'm sure the party faithful enjoy watching someone from the other tribe squirm. But all it does is ensure that rather decent candidates decide not to try and run for office -- and if they do, discourages them from trying to do anything to help a mess like Flint -- because it'll be nothing but pain and trouble for you.
Bad way to solve Flint's problems, seems to me. Flint needs help. Don't make it painful to try to help.
I feel like once you get a grand jury to indict, you've passed the point of political theater because you've actually had to present evidence to lay people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
The State takeover wasn't trying to improve the water, it was trying to improve the budget. While I can certainly appreciate that, let's not try to pretend that the action was being take to improve their water quality. The state's concern with Flint during the takeover had nothing to do about quality of life and everything to do with budget. I'm not necessarily against the state taking over failing municipalities, but when the state is at the helm and they make a terrible, costly decision, the state bears the responsibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Good faith ends when the state government officials knew of a very dangerous problem and underacted and underreported the issue.
It will be interesting to see how direct the connection is between Snyder and the state officials that knew what was going on.
What does this even mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
If you're responsible for causing a car accident and someone is killed, you could still be charged and convicted with a crime whether the homicide was malicious or not.
I think AG's office is on the right track but she seem to be using a small minnow dip net instead of casting a broad seine net. She also needs to look at, regardless of political affiliation, everyone involved.
1. Who planted the seed to change to Flint River Water?
2. Who lobbied the Flint city powers, the State or Local Government official to enact the change?
3. Who made the final decision to go with the Flint River water? The State of Local Elected Officials?
4. Who from the EPA, MDEQ, County Health originally told Flint officials the change from Detroit Water would not hurt anyone?
5. Why did they want to leave the Detroit Water and go with the new [[KWA) Karegnondi Water Authority if it wan't ready to provide safe water service? What was the rush?
6. Were there any water treatment safeguards stipulated in the change know the status of the Flint River and were they ignored? By who's decision and why?
7. Why wasn't/isn't GM being a major pollution contributor to the Flint River also held accountable for some of the problems.
I think the AG's office needs to cast a broader net, not just Snyder
I would think casting a wider net is the exaxt opposite of what any lawyer would want to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by birwood
It's a lot easier for the opposing party to find holes in a lawyer's arguments if they have such a broad focus.
That's probably why Snyder is only being charged with neglect, because it's the easiest to prove.
Motivation matters in criminal acts. Accidental deaths are manslaughter. Intentional deaths are murder.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
Killing someone who jumps out in front of you from the sidewalk probably won't even be a crime. Beheading is murder.
Two things to consider:
1) Motivation
2) Public Policy
Motivation is important as discussed. Determines if there's a valid reason to sue -- or whether this is political gamesmanship.
Public Policy is important because it determines who agents of the State behave. If we sue everyone where the outcome is terrible, then we discourage action. This is the 'Ferguson Effect' that we're seeing in near doubling of murder rates in big cities IMO. Tell cops you have a great risk of losing your job, income, and future career prospects if you arrest a criminal -- then cops eat more donuts. And society decays as we are most clearly seeing.
Quote:
Six years ago, lead seeped into the tap water in Flint, Michigan, while state and local officials said everything was fine. Now, the same doctor who proved something was wrong is taking the first comprehensive look at the thousands of kids exposed to lead in Flint. Sharyn Alfonsi reports.
It’s a shame Michigan will go on record for having two governors on trial at the same time!
Ever hear the saying of “you can get a grand jury to indict a peanut butter sandwich” ? They do not show any evidence at that time,outside of what the prosecutors have before it is disputed in a trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonWylie
Lots have been indicted by a grand jury before and had charges dropped afterwards when the DA really looks at the case.
Interesting how in Fl the penalty for driving on a suspended license is up to 5 years in prison,but yet .....
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
[QUOTE=Richard;606261, Interesting how in Fl the penalty for driving on a suspended license is up to 5 years in prison...[/QUOTE]
Not really that interesting.
That's actually a Googlewhack although with more than two words.Quote:
Originally Posted by old guyNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Lock him up! Lock him up!
Well okay,how about a ham sandwichQuote:
Originally Posted by old guy
New York State chief judge Sol Wachtler was famously quoted by Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities that "a grand jury would 'indict a ham sandwich,' if that's what you wanted."[18][19]
Wachtler's most famous quote, made shortly after his appointment as Chief Judge, was that district attorneys could get grand juries to "indict a ham sandwich."[3]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
An ethical person would plead out, pay a small fine and be done with it instead of racking up trial expenses.
Exactly. Much ado about nothing. [[I think someone said that in an earlier life of mine...................)Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Robert Kraft could have done the same thing, but he didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
"Ethical" and "Rick Snyder" don't belong in the same sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Actually I think an ethical person would not declare themselves guilty without a trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
They just threw those stupid charges out there to make it appear like they are holding somebody accountable.
It appears to be working.
Do you really think that they would drag the bad publicly through the state while spending millions on a trial,all so they could catch a little misdemeanor charge?
If they were serious they would have found a felony and removed him from politics permanently.
But they could not prove that one so they went with that,which is sketchy at best,it makes it look like they are grasping at straws and not the accused.
^^ I think he is removed from politics permanently already... he was a businessman who tried his hand at politics as governor of Michigan. Well we all know what kind of inexperienced politicians business people make... :eek:
I see what you did there. And for good reason. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Cannot be any worse then career politicians that run on promises of healthcare and infrastructure,how’s that working out? Ooops :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Executive Order NO 2020-50
Both instances of people needlessly dying,but the difference is when an official already has all the information in hand and still sends others to their death.
This example tough to prove,hence the misdemeanor charge.
The other example,not so tough to prove.
After all the chest thumping and the "big" investigation he was only charged with a misdemeanor. What a waste of time and money!
Yea but it is not their money they are playing with,so they do not even take that part into consideration.
Don't forget this part.
Flint citizenry: this water is brown. It causes a rash.
State of Michigan: nothing to see here, folks. Keep drinking it.
General Motors: this water is causing our new engine blocks to corrode.
State of Michigan: Oh? Tell us more......
And lest we not forget this one....
After a ballot initiative that voters approved at the polls that abolished the then-emergency manager act, Snyder quickly enacted a new one in the early days of the next legislative session.
I think you meant pragmatic. Its clearly ethical to defend your own innocence regardless of personal expense. Kinda the definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
The ethics of suing an ex-governor are more suspect, and look like political game. Vindictiveness is a trend at the moment, as you may have noticed in Congress for example. Its a mistake unless you have no ethics, but lots of politics and greed.
I do not know,from what I remember from those days and even more so with COD, there were plenty that supported that EM aspect and had zero problems dismantling and removing city assets,based on that moment in time,refer to the belle isle thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
I still think the undiscovered elephant in the room is the amount of city assets,that were transferred to hidden offshore corporations,that seems to bother nobody else.
But that could be because it was bi-partisan beneficial and stirring that pot up would have not made for good theatrics.
^^ Richard, I see you're here to poison another thread.
Personal attacks are what poison threads,that is why they are frowned on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
The rest is based on speculation,personal views and opinions,until more facts are released in the case.
That is called a discussion.
Not to quibble, but I thought that bill was passed in the lame duck session and since it had a minor spending amendment attached it could not be superseded by Proposal [[ x? ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
Have i misremembered?
Big deal - two misdemeanors filed against a 1st time offender.
If found guilty, most likely sentence would be community service and possibly a fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
No, I meant ethical, as in not wasting any more of the court's time or taxpayer expense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Clearly not. He's piddling around about which county the case was filed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
Have you ever been accused of a criminal act? Been fined heavily for something you are told was your fault? Or spent any time in jail? Had your character attacked? Heck, been through a divorce and what normally happens with the accusations in that? I think the right to defend oneself is a human right. There are multiple sides to every story and so many layers to matters like this [[particularly burdens of proof, etc.; in spite of immunity defenses, there are civil lawsuits all around this as well). It isn't so easy to just say that it would be ethical for him to do this, or right for him to do that. I am not defending Snyder at all, AT ALL, but it's just not that easy to draw the conclusions above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
2 misdemeanors are nothing more than a slap on the wrist for him, and a slap in the face of the people of Flint. Very repulsive....
If that's all they have then that's all they have. Obviously, they were out to nail him to the cross but couldn't come up with anything better then this.
Snyder used to be a geek lawyer. He knows better not to downplay any crisis. Now he is in the other side of the law.
Snyder probably deserves a harsher penalty, but yeah, you charge someone with what you can actually prove. Yes, he was able to wash his hands of a lot of stuff with all the delegating.
Also it should be pointed out that the Flint River intake is far upstream of any of the former GM plant sites. Aside from a different pH level and typical contaminants associated with any surface water, there was nothing inherently bad about the Flint River water that competent treatment couldn't have fixed.
Many liberal whites wouldn't be caught dead in big-3 car made in Detroit or Flint. National trade policies passed by both parties encouraged imported cars Factories shut down in Flint and Detroit for those and other reasons. US manufacturing cities atrophied. The City of Detroit's Democratic Party leaders allowed Detroit to significantly raise the water prices that it charged Flint. The Democratic Mayor and City Council of Flint decided it would be cheaper to use local river water. That didn't work out so well. Conclusion: All those decisions were Governor Snyder's fault.
Ultimately, yeah it was Snyder's fault about the water. The Flint mayor and council answered to Snyder's handpicked emergency manager. Don't Republicans like to style themselves as the party of "personal responsibility?"
It was a democrat mayor,a democrat city council and a democrat EM,it was cheaper to continue using DWSD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsie
At the crux was the state and federal infrastructure funds that the city of Flint would have benefited from by construction of the new water pipeline.
It was thought jobs and revenue for the city,short term,yea okay,but it still would have ended up costing the city of Flint residents more in the long run, then it would have then to just stay hooked up to DWSD,because that little shot in the arm of infrastructure was only a temporary solution.
Granted Republican control of Flint for the last 50 years brought it to the place it was.Right?
The reason a democrat EM was picked or appointed was so it would remove the ability to say,see it is the republicans fault.
Unless of course a democrat mayor,democrat city council and a democrat EM could not figure it out then who else is left to blame but a Republican.
I would think it would be more productive to look at who benefited from the new pipeline,clearly the city of Flint residents did not,nor did the state of Michigan and United States taxpayers.
Then when they got $390 million + another $100 million flat out fed grant.
They spent it on social programs instead of what the intended use was for.
About $129 million was spent on economic development and “social development,” nearly as much as the $144 million spent on safe drinking water, according to the state budget tally.
- The funds have paid for free daycare for kids too young to have been impacted by the main crisis, according to state records, and for basketball, according to a book; residents are even being paid $50 to sign up for other government benefits.
- Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha, a Flint activist, said the money has enabled “the stuff progressives dream about,” and a state budget spokesman said local officials are lobbying to keep services even as the water problem fades.
https://dailycaller.com/2020/01/15/f...oney-spending/
So the democrats in Flint have brought it back full circle into what brought a republican into their house in the first place.
It always seems to be a problem when you start seeing free money in the hundreds of millions,to many times we find out that somebody some where was there with their grubby fingers, playing games while the people end up suffering the consequences.
In the end,the funds will run out,the residents will not be able to afford the extra added taxes to support the social programs,so they will be broke and with a screwed infrastructure again in a few short years.
Damn republicans,where do they get their reasoning from?
The first case that was settled for the $600 million had little to do with guilt or not,it had to come to a conclusion in order for the states ability to sell bonds for other infrastructure programs.
When you have uncertainty,like there is again with this,it lowers the states ratings and ability to sell bonds at a decent rate.
https://www.fitchratings.com/research/us-public-finance/flint-water-settlement-eliminates-downside-credit-risk-for-michigan-01-12-2020
It will not be about guilt or not,just providing a facade of holding somebody accountable,but not really.
The entire state will not risk everything over flint or any other individual city even more so,if you run a campaign on fixing the roads,you cannot fix them without selling bonds,you cannot get bonds at a reasonable rate when you have this kind of uncertainty going on.
So they will make it go away as fast as possible with as little impact as possible,so it does not drag the whole state down with it.
R or D it does not matter,it will be a D behind clearing that R.
Now go back to March of 2016
Michigan currently has the wherewithal to support projected additional costs and maintain the current rating," Spain said. "But if costs related to the Flint water crisis or distressed local credits escalate, there could be credit pressure."
https://www.governing.com/archive/tns-michigan-flint-detroit-financial-rating.html
That is why they came up with the $600 million settlement number ,because that was what the state could comfortably absorb because at that time Snyder had a positive balance in the budget,or rainy day fund,without imploding financially across the rest of the cities.
If that same Flint situation would have happened this year, with no state reserves in place or rainy day fund,because of Covid,it would have taken years for the state to recover after that crash.
You can spin it however you like. But you can't run from the fact that a Republican administration, via Snyder's chosen emergency manager, was ultimately in charge and responsible for the lack of competent water treatment.