'White Skin Privilege', from a white perspective....

Tim Wise, [[a white guy) is a notable author and anti-racist speaker. Many white people and their apologist back-off a debate about one of amerikkkas' longest running contradictions, and that is, the automatic access of many immunities and opportunities due to simply being white-skinned.

It is common to hear Black activist, nationalist, and anti-racist speak in profound fashion on the subject of WSP, [[white skin privilege). In the video below, Wise, profoundly drives home those Black sentiments in his own 'white experience', [[not just talk), the invisible legacy of what many amerikkkans' REFUSE, or don't want to ADMIT to believe exist, and that is idea of 'white skin privilege'.

[[the video is almost a full hour, but it is worth a look!)

Click on below...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA

blksoul_atcha!
The BJL, the color you love to hate!

How have you been blksoul-x ?, I haven't been around much since the format change, good to see some things haven't changed. :~)
That is an interesting look at things,
...and I hope you enjoy this just as much, although not nearly as long?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc2_1247608341&p=1

.

I saw Tim a year or so ago at Creighton University. His presentation was entertaining and enlightening. On occasion, he was a little glib for my taste. I hope he is not targeted by right wing hate groups that are on the rise.

He is doing important work. The idea of talking to whites about white skin privilege isn't new. I knew many white working class folks who spoke of it in the Detroit metro area in the late 60s and early 70s.

Specifically People Against Racism [[PAR) did it in the late 60s. The Interfaith Centers for Racial Justice did it in Detroit’s suburbs following the uprisings of the late 60's and the Kerner Commission Report.

White skin privilege still exists today as does institutional racism. Some, but not all, working class whites see it. The concept is more often interpreted as a way to lay universal white blame and guilt than it is to explain an unfair and unjust phenomenon that exists. As a result, it is something those who want to perpetuate the status quo can use to keep folks divided.

The Kerner Commission report if reread today would both enlighten and enrage folks.

“What white Americans have never fully understood but what the Negro can never forget—is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it.� From the introduction to the “National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders,� 1968

In a recession it is now difficult for everyone. And while recognizing it is still harder on people of color, it is better to unite and build serious power for positive change. Regardless of color or class we’d be all better off if we really understood the following quote.

“If you have come to help me you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.� Aboriginal activists group, Queensland, 1970s

How is this not racism in reverse? Follow MLK and strive to disregard the color of a person's skin and focus on the person's character.

I liked the bit about never hearing the term "overprivileged" used. The "Black Pill" argument was good too.

Here's a Tim Wise interview from March of this year: Between Barack and a Hard Place.

Interesting that this is acceptable racism [[by liberals anyway)

Someone please take the time to explain how and why the phrase "reverse racism" is a misnomer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blksoul_x

Tim Wise, [[a white guy) is a notable author and anti-racist speaker. Many white people and their apologist back-off a debate about one of amerikkkas' longest running contradictions, and that is, the automatic access of many immunities and opportunities due to simply being white-skinned.

It is common to hear Black activist, nationalist, and anti-racist speak in profound fashion on the subject of WSP, [[white skin privilege). In the video below, Wise, profoundly drives home those Black sentiments in his own 'white experience', [[not just talk), the invisible legacy of what many amerikkkans' REFUSE, or don't want to ADMIT to believe exist, and that is idea of 'white skin privilege'.

[[the video is almost a full hour, but it is worth a look!)

Click on below...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA

blksoul_atcha!
The BJL, the color you love to hate!

---

So, while I agree with Wise %99 of his arguments. The remaining %1 of his argument being racist because he specifically targets whites only in every single one of his arguments I have seen completely ignoring actual history.
But neverthelelss, this is about America and white privilege.

Riddle me this genius. What is the answer?? What happens when "white privilege" is dismantled?
And how do you go about dismantling this so called white privilege?

Who gains from dismantling white priviege and who loses?

Tim Wise is correct there is white privilege, and its just part of the puzzle.

There is also male privilege, heterosexual privilege, religious privilege, in this country. The list goes on and on of all of the privileges that are given to people not because of what they do or can do, but because of the issues of who they are categorically as a person.

Everyone is a bit biased to a certain degree, it is the level of bias that matters, and it is not dependent on race, just human nature. In this day and age among rational thinking adults behind any closed door the mere notion of mistreating a person based on race is totally unacceptable. In my experience anyway.

Best way to put out a fire is stop throwing fuel on it. If you're one color and a person of a different color is unkind to you, race doesn't have anything to do with it, the person is just a jerk. A lot of people are jerks. And that goes both ways.

Responding to a jerk with more jerk like behavior solves nothing. A little kindness goes a long way. Be bigger. Be stronger. Be respected.

Ignore this Wise person he is just a shit stirrer.

You are not wrong Vet...I was being nice...it is plain racism.

OK, here goes, from someone who has made civil rights a lifetime career.

What is "reverse racism?" It is an interesting term, being that it acknowledges on the one hand that racism is white against black, while decrying it when it is seen as something to benefit blacks rather than whites.

As such it is not racism practiced by blacks against whites, but policies instituted and practiced by the institutions that usually favored whites, to benefit blacks.

In my lengthy career, I have seen racism against whites, much much more racism against blacks. Racism is always practiced by one group against another. In what is called "reverse racism," policies are instituted by the overwhelmingly white systems to reverse generations of discrimination against blacks. Now here come the whites who continue to have their traditional privileges, screaming that giving similar privileges to blacks is "reverse racism."

I stand ready to take your comments and questions. Abuse and ridicule will be ignored.

Yet, still racism....correct?

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Originally Posted by gazhekwe

OK, here goes, from someone who has made civil rights a lifetime career.

What is "reverse racism?" It is an interesting term, being that it acknowledges on the one hand that racism is white against black, while decrying it when it is seen as something to benefit blacks rather than whites.

As such it is not racism practiced by blacks against whites, but policies instituted and practiced by the institutions that usually favored whites, to benefit blacks.

In my lengthy career, I have seen racism against whites, much much more racism against blacks. Racism is always practiced by one group against another. In what is called "reverse racism," policies are instituted by the overwhelmingly white systems to reverse generations of discrimination against blacks. Now here come the whites who continue to have their traditional privileges, screaming that giving similar privileges to blacks is "reverse racism."

I stand ready to take your comments and questions. Abuse and ridicule will be ignored.

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So how is it to be determined that a balance has been reached? And why is the only racism that ever seems to be recognized is white v black or white v XXX?

This was something I ran into while reading about the hijab case just filed against Callahan's court. A few years ago there were two hijab wearing Islamic blacks who claim they were denied employment at a Dearborn McDonald's due to their wearing hijab...I don't know the race of ownership, but what if the ownership was Islamic Middle Eastern and the discrimination wasn't against hijab but rather against black? Just as in the recent case the national media played it as a case of religious discrimination...but it was a halal McDonald's.

No. Read it again, CC. Racism is always from one race to another. This is one race adding privileges to a different race to equal privileges given to its members.

Each such policy has its own set of goals and measurements as a requirement. It would be a wonderful thing to have it studied among all the policies to see which are reaching balance. I know we are not there yet, but much much closer than when I started on this path.

Racism is still racism, regardless of the color of the perpetrator's skin.

Racism is as old as humankind, no one tribe of humans have a monopoly on the practice.

It is who the perpetrator is discriminating against that is key. In this case, it is policies instituted by whites to benefit blacks. These policies are seen by whites as discrimination against whites. It is not whites discriminating against blacks, nor is it blacks discriminating against white. Therefore, not racism. These policies were instituted to counter racism.

It is true that there is no reverse racism, because racism is always racism, no matter who is doing it.

I can see a policy steering to far over the line being discriminatory as in, a company always refusing to hire white men because [[name any reason, to high pay, too aggressive, don't need them...). That would be discriminatory. There could be reasons that supposedly are beneficial to the company, but investigation could determine whether those reasons actually hold water. I feel a story coming on about cases I have known, so I will quit there, but I have investigated more than a few such issues.

[quote=Sstashmoo;62849

Ignore this Wise person he is just a shit stirrer.[/quote]

How does it feel to have your job outsourced? :D

Lilpup, there are many avenues to discrimination, not all having to do with race. The Michigan Elliot-Larsen Civil Rights Act prohibits discrimination because of religion, race, color, national origin, age, sex, height, weight, familial status, or marital status; or arrest record not resulting in conviction.

In the Halal/hijab case, without seeing the facts, I would head for the sex discrimination and religious discrimination angle, and if the owner was not black, race also. I have seen cases where the owner might argue that his customers would object. In those cases, some education is provided for him to assist with customers' perceptions.

Institutional racism can only be perpetrated by the majority race in power.

Those who cry out "reverse racism" are simply majority members who don't want to lose their power.

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Originally Posted by East Detroit

Those who cry out "reverse racism" are simply majority members who don't want to lose their power.

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Why do you mock the fringe[[further more by the day) Republican Party? :confused:

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gazhekwe

OK, here goes, from someone who has made civil rights a lifetime career.

What is "reverse racism?" It is an interesting term, being that it acknowledges on the one hand that racism is white against black, while decrying it when it is seen as something to benefit blacks rather than whites.

As such it is not racism practiced by blacks against whites, but policies instituted and practiced by the institutions that usually favored whites, to benefit blacks.

In my lengthy career, I have seen racism against whites, much much more racism against blacks. Racism is always practiced by one group against another. In what is called "reverse racism," policies are instituted by the overwhelmingly white systems to reverse generations of discrimination against blacks. Now here come the whites who continue to have their traditional privileges, screaming that giving similar privileges to blacks is "reverse racism."

I stand ready to take your comments and questions. Abuse and ridicule will be ignored.

---

Since we've been talking about Tim here's his take on it

http://www.raceandhistory.com/selfne...3,80611,.shtml

I believe Tim Wise is truly one of the more important voices out there discussing race and race related issues. His web site has some very good blogs and articles that if one reads with an open mind it can give you a greater understanding of race.

http://www.timwise.org/

I have heard that argument before, that racism is about power, so only those who have power can be racist. The extension, that the use of racial slurs has to be dehumanizing, while terms used by blacks against whites are not strong enough, is dangerous in my opinion.

Such terms foster a sense of outrage, a sense that it is OK to hate another race. Even if the hater has no power to affect the major race, he or she does have the power to hurt an individual. Fostering hatred can increase that power. As we continue to break down barriers, power of that community increases, and there will come a time when they can hurt the community of the hated race. Witness our unlamented former Detroit City Council members who openly admitted to discriminatory animus against whites and were applauded for doing so. No one challenged them. That is racism with the power to hurt and control.

D@mn you're good gazhekwe! Exceptional descriptions and background. You indeed described some of the hows and whys of racism, and refuted the "reverse racism" misnomer. Thank you.

Why, thank you, Vetal! :o I have been working on this all my life, it seems. I am happy if what I have learned can help others.

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Originally Posted by gazhekwe

Why, thank you, Vetal! :o I have been working on this all my life, it seems. I am happy if what I have learned can help others.

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I will certainly restudy the objectivity and veracity of your words in this thread. Part of learning is to understand "a thing" to the degree where it can be articulated independently. Your [[own) mind, your [[own) thoughts.

Particularly interesting is the distinction between institutional and personal racism [[bias).

Isn't personal racism an entitlement or right? An individual right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gazhekwe

I have heard that argument before, that racism is about power, so only those who have power can be racist. The extension, that the use of racial slurs has to be dehumanizing, while terms used by blacks against whites are not strong enough, is dangerous in my opinion.

Such terms foster a sense of outrage, a sense that it is OK to hate another race. Even if the hater has no power to affect the major race, he or she does have the power to hurt an individual. Fostering hatred can increase that power. As we continue to break down barriers, power of that community increases, and there will come a time when they can hurt the community of the hated race. Witness our unlamented former Detroit City Council members who openly admitted to discriminatory animus against whites and were applauded for doing so. No one challenged them. That is racism with the power to hurt and control.

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I do agree with that assessment. We try to live in a civil society and racial bigotry does nothing to further that goal. My issue is when whites claim to equate acts of racial bigotry with reverse discrimination. I fall into Tim's view that true discrimination is institutionalized and can't be reversed unless the blacks have the power to affect whites on an institutional basis. There are some cases where I could see that happening [[ Detroit city council) but those are rare.

I believe too many times people confuse racial bigotry with racial discrimination. Racial bigotry in which everyone has to a certain degree can be addressed with education and an open mind is especially dangerous in whites because that can be used to justify a system of racial discrimination which affects blacks and other minorities on an institutional basis.

If you define anything that blocks life, liberty and the pursuit of happeness as institutional discrimination you must come to the conclusion that is very difficult for blacks to have any control over whites in that regard.

One of the biggest issues I had with Sstashmoo when we were debating the whole Gates issue a few weeks back is that I think that Sstashmoo was looking at the incident as a personal issue with the lack of respect of one individual to a police officer and I looked at it from a position of institutional abuse of police power even though it was among two individuals.

I think most blacks can get beyond a cross burning, or a snide remark or nasty name calling although we live in a civilized society and shouldn't do that.

What's more problematical is being denied job promotions, mortgage loans, being arrested on shaky grounds etc. Thats the kind of discrimination that concerns me more.

Can someone explain to me what privileges are allegedly endowed to me as a white man?

I was lucky enough to be born to working-class parents who cared enough to feed and clothe me, take me to the doctor, and make sure I did well in school. I busted my ass to put myself through college and get my career to where it's at now. That doesn't have a single damned thing to do with being white.

All I'm saying, is I've been on this rock for over 30 years, and I haven't seen a single check or free pass on account of my being white.

It was certainly true in the past that racism was institutionalized. But at the same time blacks were relegated to menial jobs, my first-generation American grandfathers were both working menial jobs to support six kids.

When does one decide to start taking responsibility for his own lot in life? Luck comes to those who work for it.

Most of us need a leg up to some extent, but one cannot neglect to avail himself of opportunities, and then blame his failures on Whitey. That's just lazy bullshit.

GhettoP, Excellent post..

Institutional racism is built on white privilege over many generations. Whites typically do not see it because it is just a way of life. Up until the Civil Rights legislation of the 60, it was legal for blacks to be denied service of any kind, banking, public services, even community services. We are now in the second generation since discriminatory behavior was outlawed. It has taken many many years of work, legislation and court decisions to reach where we are now, still in a state of flux.

I agree with first and ten's well articulated concerns. Personal bias is something we have to learn to overcome. Even after all these years, sometimes it is a task for me, but I keep trying to be a better person. It is the same kind of thing as brushing a persistent fly away from your face. The darn thing WILL buzz you, but you apply your preventive measures, in this case, reason.

Because we are still learning how to work this, we still see the institutional racism. It is hard to see fault in it because it is so pervasive. Some examples:

Redlining for insurance and mortgages
Majority disinvestment in areas with extensive minority populations. Blacks will make integrative moves, whites, as a rule, will not, so businesses stay away which results in community disinvestment.
Community disinvestment, loss of tax base, poorer schools, poor maintenance of community institutions. THis results in poor preparation of minority students for mainstream jobs and lack of availability of jobs to start with.

It is true that around here it is much more common to see black people in positions of power. White only workplaces are far less common. Yet, people are still in a mindset where it could reverse itself quite quickly. That is why continued vigilance and practice is needed.

For anyone who feels they were denied work because of their race or color, be it white or black or other, there are two places that can investigate your complaint, Michigan Department of Civil Rights or Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. In addition, some communities also have investigative agencies.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Can someone explain to me what privileges are allegedly endowed to me as a white man?

I was lucky enough to be born to working-class parents who cared enough to feed and clothe me, take me to the doctor, and make sure I did well in school. I busted my ass to put myself through college and get my career to where it's at now. That doesn't have a single damned thing to do with being white.

All I'm saying, is I've been on this rock for over 30 years, and I haven't seen a single check or free pass on account of my being white.

It was certainly true in the past that racism was institutionalized. But at the same time blacks were relegated to menial jobs, my first-generation American grandfathers were both working menial jobs to support six kids.

When does one decide to start taking responsibility for his own lot in life? Luck comes to those who work for it.

Most of us need a leg up to some extent, but one cannot neglect to avail himself of opportunities, and then blame his failures on Whitey. That's just lazy bullshit.

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Good questions. There are very good answers as well. The tone [[of the questions) will unfortunately irritate some at the outset however. My turn gazhekwe? Anyone else that can answer [[without the unnecessary reciprocal vitriol)?

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Originally Posted by firstandten

If you define anything that blocks life, liberty and the pursuit of happeness as institutional discrimination you must come to the conclusion that is very difficult for blacks to have any control over whites in that regard.

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Can you please clarify?

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Originally Posted by firstandten

... was looking at the incident as a personal issue with the lack of respect of one individual to a police officer and I looked at it from a position of institutional abuse of police power even though it was among two individuals.

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I get both views firstandten.

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Originally Posted by firstandten

I think most blacks can get beyond a cross burning, or a snide remark or nasty name calling ...

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Indeed.

One other thought, poor student preparation and uncertain work ethic creates a stereotypic mindset in employers. Minority applicants still have to cross over that hurdle and may be bypassed in favor of white applicants despite real qualifications.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gazhekwe

Institutional racism is built on white privilege over many generations. Whites typically do not see it because it is just a way of life. Up until the Civil Rights legislation of the 60, it was legal for blacks to be denied service of any kind, banking, public services, even community services. We are now in the second generation since discriminatory behavior was outlawed. It has taken many many years of work, legislation and court decisions to reach where we are now, still in a state of flux.

I agree with first and ten's well articulated concerns. Personal bias is something we have to learn to overcome. Even after all these years, sometimes it is a task for me, but I keep trying to be a better person. It is the same kind of thing as brushing a persistent fly away from your face. The darn thing WILL buzz you, but you apply your preventive measures, in this case, reason.

Because we are still learning how to work this, we still see the institutional racism. It is hard to see fault in it because it is so pervasive. Some examples:

Redlining for insurance and mortgages
Majority disinvestment in areas with extensive minority populations. Blacks will make integrative moves, whites, as a rule, will not, so businesses stay away which results in community disinvestment.
Community disinvestment, loss of tax base, poorer schools, poor maintenance of community institutions. THis results in poor preparation of minority students for mainstream jobs and lack of availability of jobs to start with.

It is true that around here it is much more common to see black people in positions of power. White only workplaces are far less common. Yet, people are still in a mindset where it could reverse itself quite quickly. That is why continued vigilance and practice is needed.

For anyone who feels they were denied work because of their race or color, be it white or black or other, there are two places that can investigate your complaint, Michigan Department of Civil Rights or Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. In addition, some communities also have investigative agencies.

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...will you marry me? :)

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will you marry me?

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Sorry D-S, I think she has a Mr. already.

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Originally Posted by Pam

Sorry D-S, I think she has a Mr. already.

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lol I know Pam.....but the way she so eloquently stated what I have been trying to explain to some caucasian people I have known for years.

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Originally Posted by HoodKING

Our country's original illegal aliens and domestic terrorists were pilgrims and puritans they also were the original white privledge people..

Tim Wise is old news and his work at end of the day does not change white folks nor prevents them from being white and engaging in white privledge..I tell my Black friends to ignore him and not depend on him to enlighten white folks..White privledge is a pathological diease and co-hort of white supremacy all whites express white privledge especially white liberals whose denial in this area is oten more lethal than the usual AWM suspects..

White Jews also have the diease of white privledge their denial is almost as arrogant as white liberals but worst becuase it is wrapped in religion..

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So, I pose to you the question: What privileges am I afforded by mere virtue of being white? About what am I in denial?

I don't remember being waved through the Toll Booth of Life just because of my white skin. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Ever been stoped for DWW? Followed around a mall? Walking with a group of friends and getting stopped by police? Get stopped by police and say "you look like a suspect in X crime" ? Been denied employment even though you exceeded the requirments under the guise that you are over qualified?And so on and so on just for starters of course.

Generalizations, labels, gross inequalities, lack of awareness of the disparities, people trying to trump each other's experiences, ....great way to keep the feud going and never really addressing the issues...just imagine for a moment that we all slow down and listen to each others story and see that person as an individual...acknowledge their pain and suffering, then extend resources and humanity to them and say "while we can't fix your past pain without a lot of work, what do we need to do going forward" how do we gain trust and friendship now. You have to understand the dynamics of how power has hurt others, and you also have to acknowledge that the system is far from being corrected, but what is most important is what do you want the future to become. Generalizations build silos, and silos keep people away from each other. Thus increasing that seperation... We also keep silos to insure our control or identity: the result keeps hate alive...it is when we start having opportunities [[loans, jobs etc.) extended to each other equally and forgiveness; that we evolve. Healing is about acknowledging your own role in your experience and then finding your value and worth and extending it to all people equally. Never letting another define your worth and abilities, but recognizing that they have had their own experiences. Divided we will fail..labeling we will fail, demonizing eachother we will fail. Our country is flawed from it's conception [[ genocide and slavery are our orginal sins, white privlege an extention, labeling white liberals etc [[labeling and generalization) is it's displacement...but it's salvation is forgiveness and understanding. For we are stronger because of our diversity not weaker.

Understanding and stop blaming the victim is a true starting point. Stop generalizations for hose turn people off that are truly searching for relationships. Remember, we construct prejudice [[no child is born withit) so we as a people can decontruct it... I see it everyday evolving at my work, and I am proud to be part of a system that has embraced the social justice model. [[ You all should read about is sometime). We break sterotypes down every day [[even though I am one of those scary liberals-but not in denial).

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Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

Ever been stoped for DWW? Followed around a mall? Walking with a group of friends and getting stopped by police? Get stopped by police and say "you look like a suspect in X crime" and so on and so on just for starters of course.

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You ever been CONVICTED of any crime associated with any of that?

Sure, racially profiling is not morally correct. And it's certainly an inconvenience at best. But how does being followed at the mall for wearing your pants off your ass prevent anyone from getting an education or a job?

I guess I was never followed at the mall much as a teenager, though, because I spent my time between work, extra-curriculars, and my studies instead of aimlessly roaming on someone else's private property.

..

The issue remains for people of color is how to deal with white racism clearly as a cultural dna of white folks it will always be a part of reality in America and it will morph and evolve in many incarnations..

How to deal with the reality of white cultural pathological shortcomings i.e discrimination, exclusionary practices, prejudice and negative group behaviors..

while there has always been racism there has always been those willing to fight for others and not perpetuate it.There has always been others who can get past the obvious and imagine a world evolving into something better for all; and working for it ..not letting themselves become part of the status quo.. Try not to genralize and maybe you become part of the solution.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

You ever been CONVICTED of any crime associated with any of that?

Sure, racially profiling is not morally correct. And it's certainly an inconvenience at best. But how does being followed at the mall for wearing your pants off your ass prevent anyone from getting an education or a job?

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How many stories do you hear of minority men and women [[mostly Black however), spend decades in jail or get put to death only to find out after the fact that they were innocent in a crime?


And BTW Don't get it twisted with dumb azz young people who keeps up with the latest fashion. Just ask someone with a "Black" sounding name how many times they have been turned down for a job depsite being fully qualified. Idiot.

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Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

How many stories do you hear of minority men and women [[mostly Black however), spend decades in jail or get put to death only to find out after the fact that they were innocent in a crime?


And BTW Don't get it twisted with dumb az young people who don't know how to dress. Just ask someone with a "B lack" sounding name how many times they have been turned down for a job depsite being fully qualified. Idiot.

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Who are those innocent minority men and women that would otherwise be Fortune 500 execs? I'm sure they just stumbled into the wrong place at the wrong time, didn't they?

I know many bright, successful people of all races. And I know moronic underachievers of all races. The difference between them is that one of these two groups of people busts their ass in spite of circumstances [[because we ALL have circumstances) and the other makes excuses. Which one are you?

Shit. I've been turned down for jobs too. And I have a *very* ethnic last name. But I never bitched once or blamed WASPy for my problems.

Problem or solution ..what have you actually done [[in discussion other than perpetuate building a silo)...where is your discussion other than generalizations.. [[ignoring is a great deflection..kinda like the "I have mine crowd"..entrenched in the status quo)... When you are working to stop the great divide get back to me... until then you are part of the problem...

Maybe if your read my entire post you would understand that I get the whole historical perspective and I acknowledge the demonizing of people is a tool to control and wage wars against others...now if you would like to tell me your story, I would gladly listen and try to understand your pain. But, it seems that you have made up your mind [[kinda like those you rally against)...by the way I work each day helping people who have been disenfranchised because of disability find opportunity...so if you want to slow down and hear my story I would be glad to tell you how disabilities are the great equal opportunity equalizer [[all people get them) and how minorities with disabilities have a higher degree of disparity.. but in your own words I am another [[generalization) that doesn't get it ..or are you just afraid of getting it.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Can someone explain to me what privileges are allegedly endowed to me as a white man?

I was lucky enough to be born to working-class parents who cared enough to feed and clothe me, take me to the doctor, and make sure I did well in school. I busted my ass to put myself through college and get my career to where it's at now. That doesn't have a single damned thing to do with being white.

All I'm saying, is I've been on this rock for over 30 years, and I haven't seen a single check or free pass on account of my being white.

It was certainly true in the past that racism was institutionalized. But at the same time blacks were relegated to menial jobs, my first-generation American grandfathers were both working menial jobs to support six kids.

When does one decide to start taking responsibility for his own lot in life? Luck comes to those who work for it.

Most of us need a leg up to some extent, but one cannot neglect to avail himself of opportunities, and then blame his failures on Whitey. That's just lazy bullshit.

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You make an implied assumption that blacks and other minorities don't take advantage of opportunities and blame whitey for their failures. You seem to equate white priviledge as nothing but a crutch for minorities that its really not real.

Going back to a quote from Tim Wise

And indeed there is far more sympathy expressed for the white poor, historically and today, than for the black and brown poor: another form of implicit preference for, and privileging of, whiteness. Now that the economy is imploding, one can hear concern expressed about the poor [[especially the once middle-class poor, mostly constructed as white), and how terrible it is that they are now facing such hardships. Yet when those same hardships were being experienced by the urban black and brown [[whose communities have been in a recession or even depression state for entire generations in some cases) little sympathy attached."

another quote:

"That's all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.
So, for instance, studies have found that job applicants with white sounding names are 50% more likely to receive a call-back for a job interview than applicants with black-sounding names, even when all job-related qualifications and credentials are the same.
Other studies have found that white men with a criminal record are more likely to get a call-back for an interview than black male job applicants who don't have one, even when all requisite qualifications, demeanor and communication styles are the same.
Others have found that white women are far more likely than black women to be hired for work through temporary agencies, even when the black women have more experience and are more qualified "

Examples such as the above go on and on and on

So I understand that your family worked hard but understand for blacks and other minorities privilege is the flip side of discrimination. If a black suffers from housing discrimination thats another place a white can live.

You make an assumption we are all dealing on a level playing field even if its a hard and difficult one and I don't believe that to be the case.

I think Im starting to believe that Malcom X was right when he suggested "complete separation of the black and white races'.

It seems like this is only going to get uglier as time goes by thanks to the race hustlers on both sides of the fence.

thats the whole concept of social justice "how do we equalize the playing field for all people"...if we recognize inequalities do exist [[and the do)...then WHO can re allocate resources to help the stakeholders correct it..

In my community [[there is really only one community) we know that African Americans have higher degree of heart disease than their counterparts..so we look to the root causes of diet, stress and genetics ... Our focus is to attract grocery stores into the community so that people can have healthy choices [[other than canned in 7/11's or fast food)...then we make sure children have available better food choices in school, education...after school programs..that's how you correct the % of higher heart disease...it takes a multivariate approach to something that appears as just a statistic. The problem is that resources and never allocated equally and as soon as we all recognize our stake in over all health for everyone we can correct this..Somethings are easier to mitigate than others...structure the interventions to fit the community...not one sizing it.

GhettoPalmetto: one of these two groups of people busts their ass in spite of circumstances

Hmm, we have been talking about conditions in black and in white communities, and while angrily denying any privilege for yourself, and insisting on laziness and lack of initiative for blacks, you come up with that wonderfully illustrative statement. It seems obvious from your previous assertions that you feels whites will work to overcome disadvantages while blacks will not.

That is a damaging stereotype commonly applied by whites to blacks. "I made it and nobody helped me. There must be something wrong with them." Well, sir, what is wrong with them is that you and a large majority of the white interests that control our society have this incontrovertible bias applied to all black people before any other information is put in. As a result, black people are often still viewed as inferior candidates for jobs BEFORE THEIR APPLICATION IS EVEN READ. Oh, graduated from Mackenzie, well, we'll put this aside unless there is no one better. Oh, Latronda Jackson, what a name. We'll put this one aside too. Oh, address in 48212. We'll put that one in the maybe pile.

That is one HUGE privilege you have, to be not scrutinized through a veil of bias.

UFO that is not the answer ...got to keep working for a better society, and not give up when encountering barriers errected out of fear or other issues [[which cycles to fear). Actually, I have seen it everyday in my work..and it is great when you see the light bulbs clicking an dpeople really listening and working together...then we hold hands and sing kumbya.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gibran

thats the whole concept of social justice "how do we equalize the playing field for all people"...if we recognize inequalities do exist [[and the do)...then hwo can re allocate resources to help the stakeholders correct it..

In my community [[there is really only one community) we know that African Americans have higher degree of heart disease than their countrparts..so we look to the root causes of diet, stress and genetics ... Our focus is to attract grocery stores into the community so that people can have healthy choices [[other than canned in 7/11's or fast food)...then we make sure children have available better food choices in school, education...after school programs..thats how you correct the % of higher heart disease...it takes a multivariate approach to something that appears as just a statistic. The problem is that resources and never allocate dequally and as soon as we all recognize our stake in over all health for everyone we can correct this..Somethings are easier to mitigate than others...structure the interventions to fit the community...not one sizing it.

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The thing that we as a community need to do especially in areas of social justice is that people too often look at social justice as a fixed pie. If I get a bigger piece to correct an injustice then the next guy gets a smaller piece. We need to look at the pie as expanding not fixed. A lot of it is because we have an individualistic culture in this country and a sense of I don't want to give up what I have to make you whole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoodKING

In my community we know that white racism creates all manner of havoc from health issues to employment and lifestyle issues..

I confront it 24/7 and I defeat it as well

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hows it been working for you

Agreed ..thats the problem with SJ as it has existed and why it seems never to gain a foothold. The newer econcepts is expand it to include everyone [[it has always left off people with disabilities). People don't realize they are giving up "theirs" by not helping others...in the long run .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoodKING

Malcolm X was an asshole..No one pays attention to his nonsense anymore...We need new activists not tired retreads and yoy's who quote dogma..

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I'm not disagreeing with the fact that he was an asshole. Matter of fact he is just another race hustler in my book.
Im just saying I think he may have been right regarding separation of your two races.

""Ever been stoped for DWW? ""

Not DWW, but had a Highway patrolman shove a 9mm in my ribs because he allegedly said he seen a gun in the floor of the car. It was during a DUI checkpoint, I wasn't driving. There was no gun. I've had cops follow me through small towns many times as soon as they realized I "wasn't from around there".

Followed around a mall?

Yes. Followed by security guards in the store...

Walking with a group of friends and getting stopped by police?

Yes. What are you kids doing, where are you headed, why were you over there? You actually think cops are just inquisitive of blacks?

""Get stopped by police and say "you look like a suspect in X crime" ?""

Yes. Or a car like this was reported in a crime and they investigated my hands for abrasions etc. Scanned my Drivers license, asked where I worked etc.

""Been denied employment even though you exceeded the requirments under the guise that you are over qualified?""

Most definitely.

I am white by the way.

Gaz that is similar to people with disabilities [[invisible) having fear of disclosure when interviewing. .there are barriers for people: minorities, ethnic groups, people with disabilities..and just about everyone else.. We all know that our problems stem from a Homogeneous approach to a heterogeneous world. THAT I got mine/pull yourself from the bootstrap is only applicable when you have boots on your feet and an equal playing field. It good to see people willing to continue to fight it and build a better world along the way like yourself. The key is recognizing the issues and still walking out the door to build a better world..all it takes is one person at a time.You my friend seem to see a better world despite the obvious barriers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firstandten

Going back to a quote from Tim Wise

"That's all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.
So, for instance, studies have found that job applicants with white sounding names are 50% more likely to receive a call-back for a job interview than applicants with black-sounding names, even when all job-related qualifications and credentials are the same.
Other studies have found that white men with a criminal record are more likely to get a call-back for an interview than black male job applicants who don't have one, even when all requisite qualifications, demeanor and communication styles are the same.
Others have found that white women are far more likely than black women to be hired for work through temporary agencies, even when the black women have more experience and are more qualified "

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It sounds like your boy Tim Wise hasn't spent much time in the rural South lately. Yup. Those unemployed and undereducated white people in the sticks sure have it good. People are just bending over backwards to help out Billy Cracker.

Gazhekwe, if you read any of my post that you quoted, you would have read where I explicitly stated that I know people of all races who are successful, and people of all races who make excuses.

This thread reminds me of the girl from West Bloomfield that wrote for the Michigan Daily back in 1996 or so, and used her column to apologize for being white, and encouraged people on campus to go out of their way to befriend black people. Fuck her for feeling guilty and ashamed of herself--I already had a rainbow full of friends. It's not my problem her parents kept her locked in WonderBread CrackerLand for the first 18 years of her life. Welcome to the real world. Put on a helmet and buckle your chinstrap.

I'm not going to feel guilty because of who I am, and neither should anyone else.

And for what it's worth, if you saw my name written down, you wouldn't even think I knew how to speak, read, or write English. You want your kids to be taken seriously? Stop giving them names like Miata, Cristal, and LaQuinta [[which are all consumer brands, and all actual names that I've seen).

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/testimonials.html

As our country becomes populated more and more by asians and indians and people from other parts of the world there will be much less sympathy for blacks. This is not a racist statement. It is reality. Because the above mentioned immigrants have dealt with hardships far worse [[in their eyes)than what blacks in the u.s. do. And they will not be carrying any "white privilege" .

It is a racist statement as you are describing people based purely on their race.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ccbatson

It is a racist statement as you are describing people based purely on their race.

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I am saying asians and others from other nations countries have their own history of oppression; as they become the majority they will not be so quick to buy into the privilege agenda.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gibran

UFO that is not the answer ...got to keep working for a better society, and not give up when encountering barriers errected out of fear or other issues [[which cycles to fear). Actually, I have seen it everyday in my work..and it is great when you see the light bulbs clicking an dpeople really listening and working together...then we hold hands and sing kumbya.

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I know that Gibran. My original comment was eant in a smart ass way. I would never ever advocate separating any of our people no matter what background.

Im one who believes in open borders. I believe in complete mixing of all races on this planet so that we finally become one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

""Ever been stoped for DWW? ""

Not DWW, but had a Highway patrolman shove a 9mm in my ribs because he allegedly said he seen a gun in the floor of the car. It was during a DUI checkpoint, I wasn't driving. There was no gun. I've had cops follow me through small towns many times as soon as they realized I "wasn't from around there".

Followed around a mall?

Yes. Followed by security guards in the store...

Walking with a group of friends and getting stopped by police?

Yes. What are you kids doing, where are you headed, why were you over there? You actually think cops are just inquisitive of blacks?

""Get stopped by police and say "you look like a suspect in X crime" ?""

Yes. Or a car like this was reported in a crime and they investigated my hands for abrasions etc. Scanned my Drivers license, asked where I worked etc.

""Been denied employment even though you exceeded the requirments under the guise that you are over qualified?""

Most definitely.

I am white by the way.

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Shave your beard, take off your biker uniform, put on a nice suit and bingo ! problem solved.. No more DWW for you !!;)

I wish it was as easy for black folk !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UFO

I know that Gibran. My original comment was eant in a smart ass way. I would never ever advocate separating any of our people no matter what background.

Im one who believes in open borders. I believe in complete mixing of all races on this planet so that we finally become one.

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UFO ;I was being rhetorical...I have seen your humanity and it is well placed..

First and ten _ yes we all do too...that's why we all have to keep working towards that day..where everyone won't get hassled because of color, last names, religion or nationality..man it is hard and discouraging some days, but there are many out there that are struggling and some still have small voices-it is those who we continuously fight for.

ghettopalmetto: Gazhekwe, if you read any of my post that you quoted, you would have read where I explicitly stated that I know people of all races who are successful, and people of all races who make excuses.

I did read your post. You ended up with ONE group works its way out of bad situations. It was obvious you did not mean the group that is not yours. The successful ones in the other group are exceptional. It clearly demonstrates that wall that black people have to climb over before even getting to the starting line.

Quote: "Shave your beard, take off your biker uniform, put on a nice suit and bingo ! problem solved.. No more DWW for you !!;)"

No beard, no biker. Police look for something that doesn't fit. White guy walking through a black neighborhood. Black guy walking through a white neighborhood, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gazhekwe

ghettopalmetto: Gazhekwe, if you read any of my post that you quoted, you would have read where I explicitly stated that I know people of all races who are successful, and people of all races who make excuses.

I did read your post. You ended up with ONE group works its way out of bad situations. It was obvious you did not mean the group that is not yours. The successful ones in the other group are exceptional. It clearly demonstrates that wall that black people have to climb over before even getting to the starting line.

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Sounds like someone is using their own prejudices to make their own inferences.

The word "group" isn't the same as the word "race", sweetheart.

Here is your full quote referring to minorities who are not executives and other people [[not minorities):

Who are those innocent minority men and women that would otherwise be Fortune 500 execs? I'm sure they just stumbled into the wrong place at the wrong time, didn't they?

I know many bright, successful people of all races. And I know moronic underachievers of all races. The difference between them is that one of these two groups of people busts their ass in spite of circumstances [[because we ALL have circumstances) and the other makes excuses. Which one are you?

Perhaps I did jump at the wonderful illustration of the barriers faced by minorities. Another way to read it would be to define the groups as achievers and underachievers. If that is what you mean, OK. But that meaning ignores the barriers faced by minority people who have to prove they are not underachievers before they even start, and even if they do, they have problems based on the perceptions of their race by the institutions.

For the record, I am an achiever. I have seen those barriers first hand. The school system I started with assumed I [[a minority woman) would never go to college, so no tracking or assistance was provided. Why bother? I moved here and a whole new world opened up in my senior year. I got National Merit Scholar and a full tuition scholarship. My records from the other school didn't reflect my many community service points, so my counselor backtracked with the counselor up there and completed my records so I would qualify. I have realized I was not recognized as a minority in the DPS. I hope this personal story will show the kind of barriers I am talking about. And the reverse side of the barrier is its absence, which may be called privilege.

no one should ever define the worth of another. I too had the effects of lowered expectations because of a Learning Disability..overcame it despite the obvious and has spent the entirety of my professional career making sure others did not have expectations lowered for whatever demographic they represent. You can yell at injustices and scream into into mirrors or you can get out and do something. I am so glad to see many here at least are speaking out and building bridges ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Shave your beard, take off your biker uniform, put on a nice suit and bingo ! problem solved.. No more DWW for you !!;)"

No beard, no biker. Police look for something that doesn't fit. White guy walking through a black neighborhood. Black guy walking through a white neighborhood, etc.

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AH ! racial profiling in reverse that sucks doesn't it !

But the point in your story shouldn't be " well it happens to us whites also, so get over it"

it should be police shouldn't racial profile at all its wrong on multiple levels.

it reinforces that mistaken idea that if

your white in the black hood you're trying to score drugs or sex and if
your black in the white hood you're looking to do a B&E or something similar

But its just plain lazy policing.

But I digress, stuff like that I would refer to as racial bigotry, unecessary, enough to mess up my day but ultimately doesn't affect me on an institutional basis. [[ of course unless I'm falsely arrested as a result)

You aren't digressing ..just hiting the nail on the head.

Not racial profiling at all..

They are given a field to work in, in that field are different situations, i.e. areas of varying social class and varied ethnic neighborhoods. They base their police work on the conditions. They don't make the conditions. If they see a guy in a suit carrying a brief case in an area where his social standing does not match, they are going to investigate.

Profiling is human nature, you can't eliminate it.

You can't eliminate the thought, maybe. But we have the ability to use reason to determine the validity of our instinctive snap judgments. To not use our reasoning ability is to confine ourselves to a lower level of existence.