Duggan: Scooters are here to stay

One of the more visible changes to the downtown area, and now spreading to the neighborhoods, is the appearance of GPS-connected short-rental scooters.

While there have been complaints, it appears that the overall opinion of their presence and usefulness is highly favorable. Add Mayor Duggan to the supporters.

Duggan dismissed some of the complaints heard about the city's new scooters operated by the Bird and Lime companies. Duggan said he hears more complaints about the city's new protected bicycle lanes than about the scooters.

Asked about reports of more broken bones from scooter accidents, Duggan retorted, “That's such BS!” He said there have been few if any injuries confirmed. And while the city is still experimenting with how to deploy the new scooters, he said the scooters have quickly become part of the city's mobility options.

And that's important, he said, in a city with relatively few taxicabs and no light rail commuter system.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...an/1805052002/

Anyone have any experiences to share? Trying one is on my bucket list.

It is also a job creator as with the guy I talked with in Eastern Market whose job is to collect and recharge them.

Attachment 36827

I like that the scooters have increased mobility. I ride a bus to my job downtown and I've seen people use scooters to bridge the gap between the bus stop and their place of work.

However, there's a big issue with etiquette and safety. I've been "buzzed" by scooters quite a few times. What I mean by "buzzed" is when a scooter that is not within my field of view [[typically behind me) passes very close to me without warning while going at a high rate of speed for a sidewalk.

When riding a bike in Michigan the law says that I can use the sidewalk but must warn pedestrians audibly via either some kind of noise like a bell or my voice that I am passing them from behind.

These scooters, with the way they're being used today are simply not safe for pedestrians. I've contacted one of the companies to voice my concerns and they responded by saying that scooters "should be operated in the road". Well that's nice, but that's not how they're being used. I was also told to "report unsafe riders". I'm not sure how the hell I could do that!

I think they'll end up being a good thing, but people need to adjust how they use them. Perhaps some education campaigns and periodic law enforcement would get people to think twice.

With all the tort lawyers about it would seem that a lot of lawsuits are impending.

My only issue with them is that the riders seem to get off of the scooters and then leave them exactly where they got off of them... middle of the sidewalk, entrances to buildings, where you're trying to park, etc. I saw a guy last week literally hurl one across the street into the side of a building after he tripped on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 48307

However, there's a big issue with etiquette and safety. I've been "buzzed" by scooters quite a few times. What I mean by "buzzed" is when a scooter that is not within my field of view [[typically behind me) passes very close to me without warning while going at a high rate of speed for a sidewalk.

When riding a bike in Michigan the law says that I can use the sidewalk but must warn pedestrians audibly via either some kind of noise like a bell or my voice that I am passing them from behind.

These scooters, with the way they're being used today are simply not safe for pedestrians. I've contacted one of the companies to voice my concerns and they responded by saying that scooters "should be operated in the road". Well that's nice, but that's not how they're being used. I was also told to "report unsafe riders". I'm not sure how the hell I could do that!

---

I think that is the two-fold, and very serious flaws with them:
1) The lack of etiquette, while operating and ceasing to operate them. This mirrors our society in general, from the cyber realm to the Presidential, in which the feelings of others are something not only to be disregarded but often flirted with and abused. Not sure that can be fixed in our lifetimes for a variety of reasons.
2) The company obviously doesn't intend to address complaints or provide a remedy. Similar to Uber and Facebook, they're digging in under the "fuck off, we're just a platform" mantra, absolving themselves of any social or corporate responsibility. We've seen that doesn't always hold up, but I don't think there has been a clear precedent established there and it seems to vary across jurisdictions.

I think of it like ridesharing: a potentially very good concept severely hampered by a lack of foresight, planning and responsibility. Uber has/had the potential to revolutionize transportation but instead, in the name of maximizing profits, chose to put its drivers and passengers at risk and alienate itself from municipalities but simply flooding them with endless unregulated, uncertified, untrained employees [[while refusing to take responsibility for them as such) and vehicles.

Not surprisingly, people are destroying them en-masse. When you leave, in many cases, thousands of pieces of your shit in the right-of-way, what do you expect to happen? I also wonder about the deterioration of these things. The people who charge them are supposed to report maintenance issues, but what do they care? Loyalty to their non-employer?!

My husband and I were driving down Michigan Ave a few Saturdays ago and some idiot was on one of these scooters, swerving back and forth between the two westbound lanes like a kid on a bicycle without a care in the world. About the 3rd time he swerved in front of us and Ted had to hit the brakes so as not to hit him, Ted laid on the horn. Idiot boy turns around on his Lime, starts flipping us off and swings right in front of the car, finger extended and screaming at us. I think they need to post rules and enforce them for these "toys". As far as I know, they aren't street legal and are supposed to be used IN THE BIKE LANES or on a sidewalk. If they ARE street legal, swerving in and out of all the lanes while wearing earbuds certainly isn't legal. And, yes, I see them lying all over the place. Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcole

My husband and I were driving down Michigan Ave a few Saturdays ago and some idiot was on one of these scooters, swerving back and forth between the two westbound lanes like a kid on a bicycle without a care in the world. About the 3rd time he swerved in front of us and Ted had to hit the brakes so as not to hit him, Ted laid on the horn. Idiot boy turns around on his Lime, starts flipping us off and swings right in front of the car, finger extended and screaming at us. I think they need to post rules and enforce them for these "toys". As far as I know, they aren't street legal and are supposed to be used IN THE BIKE LANES or on a sidewalk. If they ARE street legal, swerving in and out of all the lanes while wearing earbuds certainly isn't legal. And, yes, I see them lying all over the place. Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

---

Your observations are about the same as mine. I know there are many people who use them respectfully and for good, legitimate purposes, I am one of them on occasion. HOWEVER, more often than not I see these scooters being used as tools of annoyance by punks from the hood and suburban tourists. The image of downtown as nothing but a playground needs to end and these scooters aren't helping. I would much rather see a push to expand MoGo than add more of these electric toys.

The issues they cause outweigh the benefits. What's wrong with just walking or riding a bike...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcole

Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

---

Did you take it to the nearest shelter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aj3647

Did you take it to the nearest shelter?

---

Don't do that. If no one claims it in 30 days, they put it to sleep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Don't do that. If no one claims it in 30 days, they put it to sleep.

---

http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_...rt-circuit.jpg

No dis-assemble!!!

I know multiple people who have been injured walking out of our downtown office building. While some responsibility lies with the operator of the scooter, I think a lot of problems will be avoided as people learn to look both ways when they exit doorways. Due to a lack of pedestrian and bike traffic for so many years, this was never an issue. However this is quickly changing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier

While some responsibility lies with the operator of the scooter, I think a lot of problems will be avoided as people learn to look both ways when they exit doorways.

---

The issue is that you'd have to exit a doorway like your crossing a street to catch a scooter weaving through sidewalk traffic at 15 miles per hour. You'd have to come to the threshold of a door, look left, look right, and then look left again, and then exit the building. That's not feasible for buildings that have tens of thousands of exit events per day.

I'm not making that speed figure up. The top speed of a Bird scooter is 15 miles per hour and the top speed of a Lime scooter is 14.8 miles per hour. [[Source: https://www.cnet.com/news/electric-s...mp-spin-scoot/)

These scooters aren't even supposed to be on the sidewalks. Bikes are allowed to be on sidewalks but must be careful of, audibly warn, and yield to pedestrians.

Given those facts I would say the scooter operators are 100% at fault for collisions. When I ride my bike downtown I use it in the street. When I don't have a choice and have to be on a sidewalk I slow down and yield to pedestrians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

My only issue with them is that the riders seem to get off of the scooters and then leave them exactly where they got off of them... middle of the sidewalk, entrances to buildings, where your trying to park, etc. I saw a guy last week literally hurl one across the street into the side of a building after he tripped on it.

---

This is what I don't like about them as well. No matter what city I've seen them in [[NYC, DC, SF, LA), there is a problem with them being left in the middle of sidewalks. But that problem is fixable.

Utterly RIDICULOUS Behavior - I've also noted of some scoot-riders. That same person could find themselves in intractable pain, paralyzed from the sternum down, cathed, on a ventilator. Or worse causing that horror upon someone else.

Not surprising though in this increasingly self-involved world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcole

My husband and I were driving down Michigan Ave a few Saturdays ago and some idiot was on one of these scooters, swerving back and forth between the two westbound lanes like a kid on a bicycle without a care in the world. About the 3rd time he swerved in front of us and Ted had to hit the brakes so as not to hit him, Ted laid on the horn. Idiot boy turns around on his Lime, starts flipping us off and swings right in front of the car, finger extended and screaming at us....

---

Let's mix them with Edibles and really strong Pot
- that'll be fun everywhere, the cops, the lawyers and the courts

Like them or not, I don't think we'll need to worry about these scooters for long. These rental companies are simply hemmoraging too much money. It's just not a sustainable service to have an unprotected market and leave $1000 scooters on the street charging people a mere pittance to use them. As interest rates rise, and the number of willing investors evaporates most of these ridiculous money losing startups are going to go belly up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iheartthed

This is what I don't like about them as well. No matter what city I've seen them in [[NYC, DC, SF, LA), there is a problem with them being left in the middle of sidewalks. But that problem is fixable.

---

These scooters are illegal in NYC. I doubt you've seen them, as none of the companies operate there.

I have no idea of legal status in other cities, but they seem to be problematic for a variety of reasons; safety/liability being the biggest.

I'm not surprised they're actually being encouraged in Detroit, given that city leaders view downtown as some sort of playground for suburban nitwits. Might as well put up a gate and charge admission to the "Look, it's a real city, I swear!" funhouse, as Becki from Northville careens down the sidewalk, texting and mowing down pedestrians.

Also, doubt this is a long-term sustainable thing, given they charge almost nothing and these are expensive toys. Will probably last as long as Pokemon Go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

These scooters are illegal in NYC. I doubt you've seen them, as none of the companies operate there.

I have no idea of legal status in other cities, but they seem to be problematic for a variety of reasons; safety/liability being the biggest.

---

I've definitely seen them in Manhattan, but they were probably personal. Them being illegal would explain why there aren't rental companies like other cities.

I've been in D.C. and S.F. this month and they are everywhere in both of those cities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I've definitely seen them in Manhattan, but they were probably personal. Them being illegal would explain why there aren't rental companies like other cities.

I've been in D.C. and S.F. this month and they are everywhere in both of those cities.

---

NYC has too much streetlife and congestion for this junk. Imagine hordes of tourists swerving through Herald Square or SoHo [[God forbid Times Square).

DC and SF can probably take it in small doses, but I still think this is a fad; gone in a year. Winter might even kill it in cold weather places.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

NYC has too much streetlife and congestion for this junk. Imagine hordes of tourists swerving through Herald Square or SoHo [[God forbid Times Square).

DC and SF can probably take it in small doses, but I still think this is a fad; gone in a year. Winter might even kill it in cold weather places.

---

It probably wouldn't be much different than biking. I would try it.

Hah! Now that was just wrong! --;)--

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by O3H

Let's mix them with Edibles and really strong Pot
- that'll be fun everywhere, the cops, the lawyers and the courts.

---

I can just about guarantee they are mixed with edibles and pot, alcohol too--after all a huge portion of motor vehicle drivers are. The positive, if any, is that one-handed driving and texting is far more difficult on scooters.

I'm willing to cut scooters some slack particularly because the offer a partial solution to transit "last mile" issues and those who don't have/don't want cars. There is a need for some ordnances regarding speed and yielding to pedestrians.

Since they are GPS controlled it would seem possible to remotely throttle them down when in congested settings.

I use them a bit in the CBD. There are no bike lanes down here, so I mostly ride on the sidewalk at the bottom end of the speed available. I'm mid 60s with bad knees so it works out for me, although I do get some weird looks as I scooter around with a suit and tie on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcole

And, yes, I see them lying all over the place. Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

---

I've seen the same 4 scooters left behind on the north side of Michigan Ave at W. Grand Blvd for about 3 weeks. When I first saw them, I was surprised to see them that far out from the downtown/midtown areas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K-slice

I would much rather see a push to expand MoGo than add more of these electric toys.

The issues they cause outweigh the benefits. What's wrong with just walking or riding a bike...

---

I would like to see expansion of the MoGo bike too. I guess it's easier to just drop a scooter wherever & whenever you're done with it than to take a MoGo bike to a docking station.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iheartthed

This is what I don't like about them as well. No matter what city I've seen them in [[NYC, DC, SF, LA), there is a problem with them being left in the middle of sidewalks. But that problem is fixable.

---

Totally. Fixed it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jackie5275

I would like to see expansion of the MoGo bike too. I guess it's easier to just drop a scooter wherever & whenever you're done with it than to take a MoGo bike to a docking station.

---

And you don't have to peddle a scooter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GPCharles

I use them a bit in the CBD. There are no bike lanes down here, so I mostly ride on the sidewalk at the bottom end of the speed available. I'm mid 60s with bad knees so it works out for me, although I do get some weird looks as I scooter around with a suit and tie on.

---

Ha! If I was running the scooter companies, I would hire you as my poster boy. That image speaks a lot to what they are positively achieving.

One would think such scooters would be ideal for beat cops. It would give them wider range and quicker response while the department not having the bother of investment and maintenance.

Always wondered what prevents someone from making it their personal vehicle.......especially out in remote places. Would it violate the providers policy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SammyS

Always wondered what prevents someone from making it their personal vehicle.......especially out in remote places. Would it violate the providers policy?

---

You want to ride around in an 15 mph electric scooter in rural MI in a January snowstorm? While a caravan of SUVs and pickups grows behind you?

THIS is what happens on scooters in the D

https://youtu.be/AVF6FYNp5Lg

Scooters are a great idea - in warm climates. But not really practical in Michigan's climate since much of the year it's rain, freezing cold temps, streets covered with snow, slush and ice. Even 40 degrees feels uncomfortable when riding a scooter unless you're dressed for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by O3H

THIS is what happens on scooters in the D

https://youtu.be/AVF6FYNp5Lg

---

I'm sure that kind of stuff happens everywhere, but good point. The scooters are like anything else in life. Some people will use them as intended, and some people will abuse them or use them for crime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

You want to ride around in an 15 mph electric scooter in rural MI in a January snowstorm? While a caravan of SUVs and pickups grows behind you?

---

No, I meant in a location where others weren’t likely to rent them. IOW, you are the sole user.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pat001

Scooters are a great idea - in good weather. But not really practical in Michigan's climate since much of the year it's rain, freezing cold temps, streets covered with snow, slush and ice. Even 40 degrees feels uncomfortable when riding a scooter unless you're dressed for it.

---

Actualy they can become quite toasty,which may help on those cold winter days.

They are being recalled because of battery fires.

https://www.businessinsider.com/lime...g-fire-2018-10

Those scooters, I was told, have tracking devices in them so they could be left in the roughest most economically deprived neighborhood and no one would bother to steal them. The riders are reckless riding those things on the sidewalks almost running into pedestrians. They need scooter training classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lowell

One would think such scooters would be ideal for beat cops.

---

I'm guessing the police would have an issue with that, if for no other reason than
Attachment 36842

These have turned into rental toys for people. I was at rosa parks transit center and people are just using them as toys and hanging out on them. I agree with the earlier posted that soon these will be a thing of the pass because the cost to profit just isn't there and people are abusing the heck outta these things.
People treat it like crap because, " I don't care cause it ain't mine " attitude.
People treat them like trash and that's got to affect the bottom line of these companies.
The companies won't be able to keep this up for long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I'm sure that kind of stuff happens everywhere, but good point. The scooters are like anything else in life. Some people will use them as intended, and some people will abuse them or use them for crime.

---

It will be interesting to see how maintenance costs affect the long term business model of the scooter companies. These devices are being mercilessly abused by users. Saw some Bird scooters on MSU campus a few days ago that seemed to have years of scratches and wear and tear and they were only put in service about six weeks ago. What will winter do? Are they really that durable? Repair costs have to kill a projected ROI it would seem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by O3H

THIS is what happens on scooters in the D

https://youtu.be/AVF6FYNp5Lg

---

I actually found that vaguely interesting. I think the building they were riding in was State Hall at WSU.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by swingline

It will be interesting to see how maintenance costs affect the long term business model of the scooter companies. These devices are being mercilessly abused by users. Saw some Bird scooters on MSU campus a few days ago that seemed to have years of scratches and wear and tear and they were only put in service about six weeks ago. What will winter do? Are they really that durable? Repair costs have to kill a projected ROI it would seem.

---

We have them here to,they replaced the free bike thing,you used to see the bright pink bikes tossed in the ditches and such.

How are you guys even riding bicycles in the winter anyways?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

These have turned into rental toys for people. I was at rosa parks transit center and people are just using them as toys and hanging out on them. I agree with the earlier posted that soon these will be a thing of the pass because the cost to profit just isn't there and people are abusing the heck outta these things.
People treat it like crap because, " I don't care cause it ain't mine " attitude.
People treat them like trash and that's got to affect the bottom line of these companies.
The companies won't be able to keep this up for long.

---

All true. I hope the COD doesn't get it in their heads to keep subsidizing the scooters if they're running @ a loss. I do think it's cool to see people using them to get from one destination to another, or carrying groceries on them. Trying one out is also on my short list. Someone take up a collection for flowers.

Ford buying e-scooter startup Spin

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1ND0F2

Maybe they will offer me one to get back to the office while they fix my latest recall

After Michigan Central whatever Ford wants, Ford gets. This fits completely with the mobility image they are chasing. 400 "Ford" scooters will be added to downtown and beyond.

So how is this working out up there ?

Here in Tampa [[spin) it is somewhat of a disaster.

They are being left laying across the sidewalk,parked in front of doors,laying on thier side at the docking stations instead of upright,once they try and go outside of the boundary and the GPS shuts them down they just drop them and continue on.

They are supposed to be restricted in heavy foot traffic sections but they zoom through cussing walkers and demanding right of way.

The city counsel is re-evaluating thier whole role,it’s not the scooters themselves,there just seems to be a big lack of consideration on the riders part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

So how is this working out up there ?

Here in Tampa [[spin) it is somewhat of a disaster.

They are being left laying across the sidewalk,parked in front of doors,laying on thier side at the docking stations instead of upright,once they try and go outside of the boundary and the GPS shuts them down they just drop them and continue on.

They are supposed to be restricted in heavy foot traffic sections but they zoom through cussing walkers and demanding right of way.

The city counsel is re-evaluating thier whole role,it’s not the scooters themselves,there just seems to be a big lack of consideration on the riders part.

---

When I was in Detroit last weekend I saw lots of them laying around although I must admit we walked around downtown and the riverfront quite a bit and didn't see people being discourteous while riding. I live in the Toronto area and it was on the news today that the city just signed a contract for them but will be determining where they can be used. I can't imagine them being on Toronto's clogged sidewalks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

So how is this working out up there ?

Here in Tampa [[spin) it is somewhat of a disaster.

They are being left laying across the sidewalk,parked in front of doors,laying on thier side at the docking stations instead of upright,once they try and go outside of the boundary and the GPS shuts them down they just drop them and continue on.

They are supposed to be restricted in heavy foot traffic sections but they zoom through cussing walkers and demanding right of way.

The city counsel is re-evaluating thier whole role,it’s not the scooters themselves,there just seems to be a big lack of consideration on the riders part.

---

These are very popular during the warm months of the year. People are zooming around in these things like crazy. There are 3 scooter companies in town - Bird, Spin, and Lime, and a 4th company, called Boaz Bikes, just launched mini-electric bikes.

These things are left on the sidewalk, but I haven't noticed a lot of people getting angry about it. Actually, at the conclusion of one's use of their scooter, the SPIN app makes you take a photo of the scooter in the position that you leave it in. I am thinking they make you do that to make sure that you are leaving it in an upright position and off to the side.

Here they have little docking stations scattered about as return points that they are supposed to be returned to.

So when the gps shuts the motor down they reported that it becomes like any other non powered scooter,I am thinking if one needs to use the app to activate and photo required on return they can hold the actual renter responsible and bar from future use.

I watched a cop show in Miami where they charged a guy with theft when he took one to just cruise around non powered,but they could not contact somebody from the actual company in order to press charges,so they let him go.
A lot of our sidewalks are vintage and not very wide,the issue becomes when they are dropped sideways it creates navigation problems for people in wheelchairs.

I wonder if the issue is more so some just grabbing them and useing them without renting them,maybe they could have a interlock brake tied to the GPS and a locking docking station?

I like the concept,we ditch the car when going to Key West and rent mopeds to transit around and it is fun.

I guess it is like anything else,there is always some that will abuse it,just need to maybe tweak it a bit.

I like the idea. Whether it succeeds depends whether we adopt them using good habits or bad ones, and whether we adapt to accommodate them and make them safe and convenient for users and non-users alike.

An idea I don't like: traveling around in polluting fire breathing steel boxes much bigger than we need, taking much more space than we need, wasting so much of our city to store them, and having to pay all their direct and indirect costs -- whether we use them or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bust

I like the idea. Whether it succeeds depends whether we adopt them using good habits or bad ones, and whether we adapt to accommodate them and make them safe and convenient for users and non-users alike.

An idea I don't like: traveling around in polluting fire breathing steel boxes much bigger than we need, taking much more space than we need, wasting so much of our city to store them, and having to pay all their direct and indirect costs -- whether we use them or not.

---

Yes... but those scooters have so little luggage room when going on the interstate for a weekend in Chicago! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gistok

Yes... but those scooters have so little luggage room when going on the interstate for a weekend in Chicago! ;)

---

There is a time and a place for cars! :)

Then again, if train service were better....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bust

An idea I don't like: traveling around in polluting fire breathing steel boxes much bigger than we need, taking much more space than we need, wasting so much of our city to store them, and having to pay all their direct and indirect costs -- whether we use them or not.

---

Why so much hate for buses and trains? :cool:

Haha, reminds me of some friends, both car drivers, who complained about the traffic buses supposedly cause.

I'll repost:

Attachment 38489

PS. I should revise that cartoon to include the People Mover and the subways Detroit may never have. :cool:

Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with them if just some of the riders would understand that red lights means stop, and that rules of the road apply to them..I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the riders blow red lights at busy intersections, as well as cut off pedestrians walking, extremely rude and self absorbed behavior, and if they do that my feelings basically is they deserve what they get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DetBill

Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with them if just some of the riders would understand that red lights means stop, and that rules of the road apply to them.

---

Red lights do not mean stop for riders. For drivers, now, that's another story.

I still prefer driving.....:rolleyes:...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bust

Haha, reminds me of some friends, both car drivers, who complained about the traffic buses supposedly cause.

I'll repost:

PS. I should revise that cartoon to include the People Mover and the subways Detroit may never have. :cool:

---