Duggan: Underground railway tunnel way of future for Detroit Metro

"Mayor Mike Duggan said Tuesday that connecting the Detroit Metropolitan Airport to a railway could happen in the future ... if it's underground.

"Duggan said at the Downtown Detroit Partnership summer stakeholder meeting that airplane runways make such a link unfeasible above ground. Connecting to the airport underground, however, might be possible in light of Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk's work in building underground transportation tunnels in Los Angeles.

"As soon as I hear from the mayor of Los Angeles that this thing really works, then we're going to be pursuing it," Duggan said during a conversation with DPP CEO Eric Larson on stage at the Gem and Century Theatre."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2018/06/12/mayor-mike-duggan-elon-musk-underground-railway-tunnel-detroit-metropolitan-airport/695486002/

With this and the 62% approval to put improved transit on the ballot in November seems like people are growing up finally in this region.

http://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news/...thNEk.facebook

I had mixed feelings when I saw that. It's great that he's serious about significant transit investments, but it's disappointing that he's talking about the hyperloop stuff which imo is a bright shiny object.

The hyperloop is a more novel and less practical version of a maglev. Maglevs use magnets to hold the trains in the air, and to move. Using magnets to keep the train in the air comes with a bunch of expensive practical problems and it's the main reason maglevs never really took off. The other limiting factor to maglevs [[and anything that goes really fast) is air resistance, which maglevs use aerodynamics to overcome. The hyperloop tries do dodge these two issues by putting the whole thing in a vacuum tube which is even more expensive and problematic than what maglevs do.

Ironically we already have the more pragmatic version of the hyperloop/maglev. The People Mover technology literally started as a project to make a maglev product that was affordable and practical for urban transit systems.

It uses magnets to move the train forwards and backwards and to brake [[plus traditional emergency brakes) just like a maglev does. It uses steel wheels on tracks in order to avoid the maglev's problems. It uses a few innovations to make it quieter than conventional rail.

The People Mover's linear induction motors [[magnets) have advantages over traditional motors. They're smaller, which reduces the height of the trains, and they can climb steeper slopes, which makes grade separating cheaper and routes more flexible [[cheaper) than traditional rail. The hyperloop negates these advantages by forcing everything into very expensive precision engineered vacuum tunnels.


Due to the nature of transit projects it's hard to get generic costs. However, for their Surrey transit project, Vancouver included two Skytrain [[People Mover) alternatives in their study [["Surrey Rapid Transit Study Phase 2 Alternatives Evaluation"), and a few relevant numbers can be deduced from it.

It would cost $90 million per mile of elevated guideway above an avenue. Running it on the ground [[in an existing rail right of way or highway median) would cost dramatically less, but idk exactly how much. This is the biggest factor.

Each station would cost about $22 million, for 80 meter [[6 car trains) platforms. Current DPM stations are 25 meters [[2 car trains). Shorter platforms are proportionally cheaper, but shorter trains carry less people.

Each train car would cost about $3.5 million. This price is for larger 16.7 m cars, and we would want shorter [[~12.7 m) cars to fit the turning radius of the current loop. The shorter cars would be cheaper individually but we'd need more of them. 2 car trains running every 4 minutes would require 8 trains per mile. Many recent systems use the shorter cars for the benefit of tighter turning radii, so getting them shouldn't be a problem.

A new operations/maintenance center would be $0.5 million per vehicle.


There are two main options for connecting to the current loop. In one option, the new line would touch, but not go through the loop. A new station would serve both lines, and you'd make a transfer. The other option is for the trains from the new line to go through the current loop. This would either limit the train length on the new line to two cars [[the size of our existing platforms) or our existing platforms would need to be lengthened to accept longer trains. In the loop a train would come every 2 minutes, with every other train going to the airport. The maximum headway of the system is 1.5 minutes so that's fine.


All in all expanding the People Mover to the airport would cost over a billion dollars, which is a ton. But it's waaaaaaaaaaay less than building a subway.

Yeah, I'm with Jason on this one. I like that he's dreaming big, but we'd be better off even just thinking more conventionally. I'm with him that in the long run - at least in the immediate vicinity of the airport - that it'd be a smarter long-term investment to go underground and stretching something out there above-ground. But, really, even an underground light rail line would be enough; doesn't even have to be heavy rail, really. And, yeah, he can spare me the hyperloop-esqe stuff.

BTW, Stylin', I wish that support for transit meant anything. It's exactly and precisely because the millage would likely pass if it reached the ballot this year that Macomb and Oakland counties are trying - and will likely be successful in - keeping the millage off the ballot. In a fair world, the board members would vote their consciences. That is why there was a board created in the first place, because what's the use if the county execs can basically call a veto through their members? But, that's looking exactly like what will happen. An easy way to fix this would be to make the seats on the board elected by popular vote within their respective counties, which would disconnect its from the obvious undo influence of the county execs that you're seeing, here.

Chicago Is going to announce that Musk's Boring company is going to build a high speed system from Downtown to the airport. The boring company is paying for it. A similar deal was probably floated to Duggan. It looks like an underground road with automated Tesla designed vans on it.

https://gizmodo.com/elon-musks-borin....10gpzidjg1xce

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Originally Posted by Jason

The hyperloop is a more novel and less practical version of a maglev. Maglevs use magnets to hold the trains in the air, and to move.

Ironically we already have the more pragmatic version of the hyperloop/maglev. The People Mover technology literally started as a project to make a maglev product that was affordable and practical for urban transit systems.

It uses magnets to move the train forwards and backwards and to brake [[plus traditional emergency brakes) just like a maglev does. It uses steel wheels on tracks in order to avoid the maglev's problems. It uses a few innovations to make it quieter than conventional rail.

The People Mover's linear induction motors [[magnets) have advantages over traditional motors. They're smaller, which reduces the height of the trains, and they can climb steeper slopes, which makes grade separating cheaper and routes more flexible [[cheaper) than traditional rail. The hyperloop negates these advantages by forcing everything into very expensive precision engineered vacuum tunnels.


Due to the nature of transit projects it's hard to get generic costs. However, for their Surrey transit project, Vancouver included two Skytrain [[People Mover) alternatives in their study [["Surrey Rapid Transit Study Phase 2 Alternatives Evaluation"), and a few relevant numbers can be deduced from it.

It would cost $90 million per mile of elevated guideway above an avenue. Running it on the ground [[in an existing rail right of way or highway median) would cost dramatically less, but idk exactly how much. This is the biggest factor.


All in all expanding the People Mover to the airport would cost over a billion dollars, which is a ton. But it's waaaaaaaaaaay less than building a subway.

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I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles. Traditional cut-and-cover subway is very costly and the logistics of trying to build a subway through an airport might be daunting, so this boring technology could cost alot less than traditional subway construction methods and not be so disruptive to airport operations.

Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary because we already have the train tracks between Detroit and DTW and they are under the control of the state. All that needs to be done is build a rail to branch off of the Detroit-Ann Arbor rail into the airport, which is a 4-5 mile distance. [[There is actually an existing rail line that does this, just west of the airport)

Also, you mentioned the possibility of the PeopleMover running on the surface in a roadway median. From what I read, it is against regulations for a surface-running rail line to be fully automatic, because it would not able to stop to prevent an accident if a car crossed its path, for instance when a car is attempting to do a "Michigan Left" turn and ignores flashing lights or whatever.

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

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Originally Posted by Jason

I had mixed feelings when I saw that. It's great that he's serious about significant transit investments, but it's disappointing that he's talking about the hyperloop stuff which imo is a bright shiny object.

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Duggan isn't suggesting a hyperloop. He wants Musk to prove that the new tunnel boring technology has significantly cut the costs of tunneling for transit projects.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

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This isn't about a subway. It's about connecting the airport terminals to a potential commuter rail line.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

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If only it cost so little. Subway station renovations these days often cost many hundreds of millions.

If you built a subway from downtown Detroit to Metro Airport, I doubt you could get it done for less than $10 billion [[and that's assuming some degree of surface running).

Remember, it is Elon Musk though. If you are skeptical or question any of the logistics associated with Musk’s proposals, you have to turn in your liberal card.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

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Gosh No.

Schools can’t be helped, the homicide rate is what it is and no matter how many people lose their homes to unpaid property taxes in Detroit the people who live in the downtowns of Ann Arbor and the D want to take a train to the airport God Dammit so Jack the Property taxes right now!!!

Crazy Liberals will screw people over to get what they want for themselves just as fast as crazy conservatives.

I honestly thought Duggan had his eye on the ball pretty good until this one.

Maybe he should get Coleman II in there right quick to explain how easy it will be to get that gondola thingy sky tracking on its way taking everyone everywhere their heart desires...

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Gosh No.

Schools can’t be helped, the homicide rate is what it is and no matter how many people lose their homes to unpaid property taxes in Detroit the people who live in the downtowns of Ann Arbor and the D want to take a train to the airport God Dammit so Jack the Property taxes right now!!!

Crazy Liberals will screw people over to get what they want for themselves just as fast as crazy conservatives.

I honestly thought Duggan had his eye on the ball pretty good until this one.

Maybe he should get Coleman II in there right quick to explain how easy it will be to get that gondola thingy sky tracking on its way taking everyone everywhere their heart desires...

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Yet, nobody complains about spending a billion dollars adding a lane to I-75 in Oakland County that isn't needed at all.

iheartthed: I am hereby complaining about LBP's plan to spend a billion dollars on a new lane for I-75. Idiocy. I believe he's become senile. He must have delusions of being Robert Moses. Fix I-75, but a new lane, NO!

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Re the airport: I have literally travelled through Detroit Metro HUNDREDS of times over the past 50 years. Probably 20 roundtrips a year frequently.

I believe there are relatively very few Detroiters who travel to and from Metro. Most business travelers leave on early morning flights and return on evening flights, to and from home. I'm sure there are many travelers from Macomb County that pass through Detroit on their way to Metro but they're not going to stop halfway, in Detroit, to catch a train.

There hundreds of flights a day out of Metro and there would be relatively few trains, maybe one every two hours.

It's true that there are regularly scheduled, fast trains between ORD and downtown Chicago, but there are probable a million people living in downtown Chicago. Those trains run every half hour or so and run above-ground, between east and westbound freeways. Furthermore, they were designed and built to carry commuters, not specifically airport passengers, a minority of the passengers. I don't see a whole lot of Detroit commuters using trains; they have passenger train service from Oakland County and have for years [[if they still do) and it would be interesting to see what the ridership is there. Those trains ran in the mornings and afternoons I recall and the terminus was close to the Ren Cen I believe. I know a lot of people who work downtown and live in Oakland County and I don't know one who has ever commuted by train.

Ain't going to happen. If there was a need somebody would have done it.

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Originally Posted by 3WC

It's true that there are regularly scheduled, fast trains between ORD and downtown Chicago, but there are probable a million people living in downtown Chicago. Those trains run every half hour or so and run above-ground, between east and westbound freeways.

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Duggan is trying to address a specific problem which was not well described in the article. Due to the way DTW is built, if there were to ever be a commuter rail service between Ann Arbor and Detroit, the only way to connect to the actual airport terminals would be to build a tunnel from the tracks to the terminals [[he is NOT talking about building a subway from the airport to downtown Detroit).

The tunnel would need to go under the runways. In other cities, the connection between airport terminals and regional railways is sometimes done using automated trains running on elevated tracks, similar to Detroit's PeopleMover. This would not be an option for Metro because the elevated tracks would have to go over the runways to reach the terminals.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yet, nobody complains about spending a billion dollars adding a lane to I-75 in Oakland County that isn't needed at all.

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This. There's always a few billion sitting around for bigger highways that will do nothing to relieve congestion. I really wish there was some way for those of us in the more densely-populated parts of the Metro to veto wasteful highway projects the way the residents of Macomb and Outer Oakland have an effective veto over transit expansion.

I consider myself a good liberal, and yet I'm skeptical of St. Elon and his various projects, so I guess I'll have to turn in my card at the nearest recycling center. In any event, his proposals for forms of personal rapid transit seem designed to cater to the desire of upper-middle-class whites not to have to rub elbows with the lower sorts [[white as well as minorities), as they would have to do using regular transit, and so hardly seem liberal or progressive to me.

Post 13 is why DTW needs to be DOWNsized and much of the traffic moved to the east side, whether it be Selfridge or further out towards Port Huron. Which might not be a bad idea given I-69 being groomed for a Mexico to Canada throughway.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

Post 13 is why DTW needs to be DOWNsized and much of the traffic moved to the east side, whether it be Selfridge or further out towards Port Huron. Which might not be a bad idea given I-69 being groomed for a Mexico to Canada throughway.

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So you want to further marginalize a half-empty DTW and spend a cool $10 billion or so for another intl airport at Selfridge or Port Huron of all places [[alongside widened 94, M-59 extension, etc.)? Sounds like a plan...

A quick measure on a map shows the distances from I-94/I-696 interchange to:

DTW, 39 miles
St Clair County Airport, 25 miles [[and a MUCH less chaotic drive)

My feeling is that any big bucks would be better spent on a St. Clair County option. I'm guessing it would be a better drive from Oakland County too, even with any I-696 headaches.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Sounds like a plan...

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Absolutely. Move some of the money benefits to another area NOT monopolized by one airline and a corrupt county government.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

This isn't about a subway. It's about connecting the airport terminals to a potential commuter rail line.

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That's fine. Interesting idea. The original question stands, though.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

A quick measure on a map shows the distances from I-94/I-696 interchange to:

DTW, 39 miles
St Clair County Airport, 25 miles [[and a MUCH less chaotic drive)

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Why would you measure DTW's relative worth by its distance to St. Clair Shores of all places? That's basically Siberia in the context of Metro Detroit and activity nodes.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Why would you measure DTW's relative worth by its distance to St. Clair Shores of all places? That's basically Siberia in the context of Metro Detroit and activity nodes.

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You're being short sighted. Once I-69 is completed, it will be a major [[even more than it is now) transportation international crossing. It's ripe for growth and land is probably cheap. And it's closer to the east side and more accessible. And of course the Great Lakes shipping traffic is right there.

The future may be Port Huron more than Romulus.

There is also a Federal Courthouse there that could be expanded to handle cases arising from that crossing, airport, etc.

http://www.miept.uscourts.gov/index....ationPortHuron

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Originally Posted by masterblaster

I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles. Traditional cut-and-cover subway is very costly and the logistics of trying to build a subway through an airport might be daunting, so this boring technology could cost alot less than traditional subway construction methods and not be so disruptive to airport operations.

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I completely agree. Boring is the best and cheapest way to get the necessary space to operate trains; once you have the space, you can build for any kind of train whatever.

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Originally Posted by masterblaster

Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary...

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Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

You're being short sighted. Once I-69 is completed, it will be a major [[even more than it is now) transportation international crossing. It's ripe for growth and land is probably cheap. And it's closer to the east side and more accessible. And of course the Great Lakes shipping traffic is right there.

The future may be Port Huron more than Romulus.

There is also a Federal Courthouse there that could be expanded to handle cases arising from that crossing, airport, etc.

http://www.miept.uscourts.gov/index....ationPortHuron

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We should relocate one of the larger airports on the planet to Port Huron of all places because of the possibility of a highway getting some ceremonial trade designation, because of "Great Lakes shipping traffic" and because there's a courthouse. Uh-huh.

Let me guess, you want a 60 mile subway to downtown too? As long as we're being strategic with scarce local resources, why not?

I vote for Bad Axe. They have Great Lakes traffic, courts and highways too. And then the subway can be twice as long.

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Originally Posted by masterblaster

I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles.

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No you're right I didn't read closely enough. Musk triggers me. :p

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Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary because we already have the train tracks between Detroit and DTW and they are under the control of the state. All that needs to be done is build a rail to branch off of the Detroit-Ann Arbor rail into the airport, which is a 4-5 mile distance. [[There is actually an existing rail line that does this, just west of the airport)

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That's true but I don't think a line from the airport to downtown with a park and ride in Melvindale or something is going to get used much. It's a very specific trip. And people want high frequencies, but airports don't have peak hours, so an automated system works well for that.

My thought is a line that starts downtown, goes over Michigan Avenue/Ford Road [[with stops roughly every mile) to Dearborn, where it would squiggle through the Fairlane area, before taking Oakwood to I-94. Once on 94 it would quickly go to the airport with only one or two stops. The Fairlane/West Dearborn area has over 30,000 jobs, as well as shopping, hotels, colleges [[12,000 students), tourist destinations [[1.8 million per year), and still has tons of leftover space for densification. In between Fairlane and downtown are some surprisingly dense residential areas and potential for more development.

So to me it's more like Detroit to Dearborn is a strong transit route, and going all the way to the airport is an added bonus.

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Also, you mentioned the possibility of the PeopleMover running on the surface in a roadway median. From what I read, it is against regulations for a surface-running rail line to be fully automatic...

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I was talking about the median of 94 which is already grade separated.

Airport rail links, BTW, aren't that important, even in highly centralized world class cities with tons of visitors.

Business visitors aren't paying anyways, so tend to take the fastest, easiest path [[usually Uber). Same goes for families with children. Budget tourists are the only viable market, and they can be accommodated by really any connection, train or bus.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

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1985 - Toronto Scarborough RT - 6.4km
1986 - Vancouver Skytrain Expo Line - 28.9km
1987 - Detroit People Mover - 4.7km
1990 - Osaka Nagahori Tsurumi-ryokuchi Line - 15km
1991 - Toei Oedo Line - 40.7km
1998 - Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya Line - 29km
2001 - Kobe Kaigan Line - 7.9km
2002 - AirTrain JFK - 13km
2002 - Vancouver Skytrain Millenium Line - 20.1km
2005 - Guangzhou Metro Line 4 - 43.7km
2005 - Fukuoka Nanakurma Line - 12km
2006 - Osaka Imazatosuji Line - 11.9km
2008 - Yokohama Green Line - 13km
2008 - Beijing Airport Express - 28.1km
2009 - Guangzhou Metro Line 5 - 31.9km
2013 - Guangzhou Metro Line 6 - 24.3km
2013 - Yongin EverLine - 18.1km
2015 - Sendai Tozai Line - 13.9km
2016 - Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya Line Extension - 17km
2016 - Guangzhou Metro Line 6 Extension - 17.6km
2017 - Guangzhou Metro Line 4 Extension - 13.6km
2017 - Vancouver Skytrain Millenium Line Evergreen Extension - 11km
2020 - Kuala Lumpur Klang Valley Line - 36km
In Planning - Tokyo metro 7/Eight Liner Lines - 59.7km
In Planning - Okinawa Island Railway - 69km
In Planning - Dehli Light Metro - 35km

Combined, over 2000 train cars have been built for these lines, most of them within the last 20 years, and by a variety of manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Duggan is trying to address a specific problem which was not well described in the article. Due to the way DTW is built, if there were to ever be a commuter rail service between Ann Arbor and Detroit, the only way to connect to the actual airport terminals would be to build a tunnel from the tracks to the terminals [[he is NOT talking about building a subway from the airport to downtown Detroit).

The tunnel would need to go under the runways. In other cities, the connection between airport terminals and regional railways is sometimes done using automated trains running on elevated tracks, similar to Detroit's PeopleMover. This would not be an option for Metro because the elevated tracks would have to go over the runways to reach the terminals.

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A) The schools still suck.

B) The homicide rate is way to fucking high.

C) A propety tax rate of +4% annually is insane and leads to ruins and low job creation but works well for foreclosing and throwing people out of their houses.

I second 3WC on a Billion dollar I75 expansion is moronic. How does one horribly spent Billion dollar project make the next one Right? Insanity.

Work harder with more money invested on schools and after school activities for young people. Critically important problem.

Lower the homicide rate a lot immediately. Hire many more highly qualified police and get them the best training possible. Another critically important problem.

Freeze all property tax millages in Detroit and work hard to cut the rate so an average Detroiter can actually build some wealth in a home like the rest of America does. An important unaddressed issue in Detroit for those who are NOT Dan Gilbert or on an NEZ.

Riding in a train from Downtown to the Airport so one can enjoy the Internet on the way and not worry about the Uber running into traffic? Not nearly as important to the human beings living in generational poverty in Detroit and to their well being as A), B), C).

If Seattle can afford Musk, great for them. Unfortunately, we have critical issues that need funding NOW. And need to get started immediately. Time has been wasted.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Airport rail links, BTW, aren't that important, even in highly centralized world class cities with tons of visitors.

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This is exactly right. Airport links mostly serve the only people who go to the airport every day: the people who work at the airport. The fact that it would be nice five times a year for Bob at GM to take a train to the airport doesn't mean it's the most important service to provide [[although Bob has a big voice that makes it feel that way to city/county leaders).

Like, if we suddenly have a company willing to fund the construction of tunnels, they should obviously drill one under Woodward from downtown to [as far possible]. That would actually be useful to a lot of people on a daily basis. If they want to keep drilling, they can do other busy bus routes like Michigan, Grand River, Gratiot, Jefferson, Van Dyke, Eight Mile, etc. The airport would be way down the priority list, except possibly as an extension to a local Michigan Ave route similar to the existing CTA Blue Line.

Obviously any route that would serve the airport would almost assuredly use a major part of the Michigan Avenue corridor. Are we also acting like every trip on a route like this would be end-to-end? The idea that this would only serve business travelers seems like a very ignorant assumption.

The hindrance to commuter rail to the airport has always been the fact that the rail lines that we need are privately owned. These private rail lines have dictated for years what Amtrak's schedule has been. Any other entity wanting to use their rail lines will be dealt the same hand as Amtrak. The solution to this problem is to build our own rail line to the airport. The easiest place to build one is along the median of I-94, or under I-94, or both.

It appears to me that you are quite a few years behind the times on who owns the rail in this area and what exactly the hinderances are and aren't.

No new construction is needed, first of all, because the state now owns the line from West Detroit Junction in Detroit all the way west to Kalamazoo. Not only that, but the state has has re-doubled the track between between Dearborn to Yspi and put millions of dollars into refurbishing it, primarily for Amtrak. There is barely any freight service on this line, anymore, so traffic is no longer an issue.

The literal only issue and hidderance left for the service is political will. Had the millage for the RTA that very narrowly failed in 2016 passed, the planned service between the city and the airport would have been nothing to get off the ground. The state bought the locomotives which we still have, and had the Republicans in the legislature not thrown a fit over our lease of the cars, we'd still have those, too. There is already permission to use this line, basically.

Let's not mislead people. A basic commuter service on Amtrak/MDOT's Michigan Line could be restarted practically tomorrow. No new rail, not even refurbishment of the existing rail needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

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This is definitely not true. Bombardier still makes all of the people mover technology with the exception of the short people mover cars. The only reason you need the short cars is the tight turns downtown.

I still think that Woodward from the Detroit River to Pontiac is a great place to start with any transit project, especially a grade separated one. Build it so that stations can be added in the future. Watch the land around the stations become very valuable, and then the cities will be fighting for subway stations instead of rejecting mass transit.

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Originally Posted by Dexlin

It appears to me that you are quite a few years behind the times on who owns the rail in this area and what exactly the hinderances are and aren't.

No new construction is needed, first of all, because the state now owns the line from West Detroit Junction in Detroit all the way west to Kalamazoo. Not only that, but the state has has re-doubled the track between between Dearborn to Yspi and put millions of dollars into refurbishing it, primarily for Amtrak. There is barely any freight service on this line, anymore, so traffic is no longer an issue.

The literal only issue and hidderance left for the service is political will. Had the millage for the RTA that very narrowly failed in 2016 passed, the planned service between the city and the airport would have been nothing to get off the ground. The state bought the locomotives which we still have, and had the Republicans in the legislature not thrown a fit over our lease of the cars, we'd still have those, too. There is already permission to use this line, basically.

Let's not mislead people. A basic commuter service on Amtrak/MDOT's Michigan Line could be restarted practically tomorrow. No new rail, not even refurbishment of the existing rail needs to be done.

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Finally somebody who is truly knowledgeable and understands what's going on. What is your opinion on a rail off-shoot from the existing "Amtrak" line to the Airport. There is a north-south running line that intersects the existing Amtrak line. This line is west of the Airport and is less than 1/2 mile from the Airport where it runs between Northline Rd and Eureka Rd.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/DT...!4d-83.3462026

If this line isn't feasible, do you have any suggestions on a direct rail link to/from Downtown Detroit?

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Originally Posted by ndavies

This is definitely not true. Bombardier still makes all of the people mover technology with the exception of the short people mover cars. The only reason you need the short cars is the tight turns downtown.

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You are correct but missing a really critical detail. Ford still makes cars, so If I wanted them to make another six 1986 Taurus vehicles, that shouldn't be any problem for them, right?

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Originally Posted by professorscott

You are correct but missing a really critical detail. Ford still makes cars, so If I wanted them to make another six 1986 Taurus vehicles, that shouldn't be any problem for them, right?

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Yes, I know the short car won't ever be made again. I also wouldn't want people mover technology used for the new line. I was just trying to point out an overstatement in the previous post.

However, The new line could be designed with less tight turns and use longer train cars. Many systems have trains that can't be used on some of their lines.

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Originally Posted by ndavies

Yes, I know the short car won't ever be made again. I also wouldn't want people mover technology used for the new line. I was just trying to point out an overstatement in the previous post.

However, The new line could be designed with less tight turns and use longer train cars. Many systems have trains that can't be used on some of their lines.

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I'm personally rather ambivalent about the expansion of the People Mover, but I think it's ridiclous to think that the cars couldn't be replicated by Bombardier, as if the Detroit People Mover doesn't have specs and plans in their office that could be worked off of. I imagine Bombardier would work with them if they ever wanted to expand the system with the exist rolling stock.

That'd be a helluva lot cheaper than having to re-engineer curves. At, quite frankly, so much of it is hemmed in it's why the curves exist in the first place, because there is literally no space have significantly softer ones.

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Originally Posted by Dexlin

I'm personally rather ambivalent about the expansion of the People Mover, but I think it's ridiclous to think that the cars couldn't be replicated by Bombardier, as if the Detroit People Mover doesn't have specs and plans in their office that could be worked off of. I imagine Bombardier would work with them if they ever wanted to expand the system with the exist rolling stock.

That'd be a helluva lot cheaper than having to re-engineer curves. At, quite frankly, so much of it is hemmed in it's why the curves exist in the first place, because there is literally no space have significantly softer ones.

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Nobody is talking about reengineering the current people mover. I was talking about the extension to the airport. This could be handled with the longer cars.

The current people mover cars will last far longer than you'll live.

Obviously You've never worked in a engineering/Production facility of vehicles. The costs to retool to build the short cars would be outrageous for the handful of units you'd build. It would price the short cars well above cost of the longer cars that are still in production.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Airport rail links, BTW, aren't that important, even in highly centralized world class cities with tons of visitors.

Business visitors aren't paying anyways, so tend to take the fastest, easiest path [[usually Uber). Same goes for families with children. Budget tourists are the only viable market, and they can be accommodated by really any connection, train or bus.

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Okay, tell that to London's 6 airports, which have rail connections to each of them, some of them multiple different lines. Gatwick has Thameslink and Gatwick express. Heathrow already has Picadilly Line and Heathrow Express and soon to be connected to the $20Billion Crossrail project. New developments along the line advertise their distance from the airport, and visitors will have a new incredibly efficient and modern way to get to central London. Yeah, really unimportant.

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

Okay, tell that to London's 6 airports, which have rail connections to each of them, some of them multiple different lines. Gatwick has Thameslink and Gatwick express. Heathrow already has Picadilly Line and Heathrow Express and soon to be connected to the $20Billion Crossrail project. New developments along the line advertise their distance from the airport, and visitors will have a new incredibly efficient and modern way to get to central London. Yeah, really unimportant.

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Yes! Thameslink is vastly superior to taking the bus from Gatwick. Also it take about an hour to get from Heathrow to Central London via Picadilly. Heathrow Express was a vast improvement there as well.

I’m going to call musk’s train, “Executive Transport”. I do believe it will be the ultimate choice of business travelers. At least here in Chicago for arrivals and departures in the loop it will likely account for the preferred method of travel over rideshare and private livery servies . It will also appeal to international tourists and locals with disposable income.

I’d travel to Detroit a lot more If they had ANY sort of rail to downtown. Otherwise, forget it. While the drive from Chicago isn’t terrible, its pretty marginal from a best use of time perspective of sitting in a car for a chunk of the weekend.

Going to DTW to me is like being stranded in the desert. I’m so used to traveling to cities with easy and cheap access to downtown and the neighborhoods from the airport.

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

Okay, tell that to London's 6 airports, which have rail connections to each of them, some of them multiple different lines.

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I'm not sure what you're arguing, as no one said "there should be no public transit links to major airport".

Re-read my previous comments. I wrote that such rail links aren't particularly important, which is true. They have low ridership, even in the Paris/London/NYC type cities, and are essentially irrelevant to overall transit ridership and regional mobility, which is why a region like ours shouldn't be wasting time discussing such a marginal issue.

The rail link to DeGaulle probably has the best conditions on earth for such a line [[#1 tourist city on the planet, probably best suburban rail system in world) yet the RER link to CDG only generates like 30k riders in a system that carries like 8 million daily rail passengers.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Going to DTW to me is like being stranded in the desert. I’m so used to traveling to cities with easy and cheap access to downtown and the neighborhoods from the airport.

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Yet you live in Chicago, with awful transit for a Western city of its caliber. The rundown EL runs in the middle of giant freeways, wider even than Detroit, or on rickety wood platforms, and the suburban rail lines generally have poor service and are 90% diesel. Poor Eastern European cities with 20% the population and 10% the economy have higher ridership.

People in Detroit drive. The 12 people who happen to insist upon a rail link to the airport as a precondition for gracing the region with their presence can safely be ignored.

Most of the asian systems used one-off train designs made specifically for that project. They're aluminum boxes with LIMs and bogies ordered from other suppliers.

Bombardier seems to be the only one with heavy standardization [[the only reason their current Mark 3s are so long is because they standardized the bodies across several propulsion technologies). But for JFK they made unique wide versions to slightly increase capacity even though they had just come out with their new Mark 2s. If it was such a burden, they wouldn't have.


The only limiting factor to expanding the People Mover is the raw cost of elevated guideway.

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Originally Posted by Jason

The only limiting factor to expanding the People Mover is the raw cost of elevated guideway.

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That's one big factor, Jason, but there's one other: the FTA has no appetite for these types of systems nowadays, and it is very nearly impossible to build fixed-guideway transit without some of their dollars. Even the QLine, which was mostly privately funded, got some FTA money. Heavy rail over existing tracks with a spur to the airport is the only likely thing to happen, and that'll be a while. At least now, for the first time in my memory, there's reasonable bus service from Detroit to its airport.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I’m going to call musk’s train, “Executive Transport”. I do believe it will be the ultimate choice of business travelers. At least here in Chicago for arrivals and departures in the loop it will likely account for the preferred method of travel over rideshare and private livery servies . It will also appeal to international tourists and locals with disposable income.

I’d travel to Detroit a lot more If they had ANY sort of rail to downtown. Otherwise, forget it. While the drive from Chicago isn’t terrible, its pretty marginal from a best use of time perspective of sitting in a car for a chunk of the weekend.

Going to DTW to me is like being stranded in the desert. I’m so used to traveling to cities with easy and cheap access to downtown and the neighborhoods from the airport.

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A train to DTW would certainly help, but I would visit Detroit more often if there were any mobility options available at all, besides cars. When I bring friends from out-of-town to visit Detroit they are in disbelief that the city has no train system.

These discussions about whether Detroit should spend on transit tend to be extremely flawed. If you own a house in Metro Detroit and you don't want it to be worthless in 20 years, you should be the biggest cheerleader of these transit projects, whether you live near it or not. Transit investment [[or lack of) is something that will benefit [[or not) a region for decades down the line. The effects of it will go on long after many of us have died.

A train link to DTW would permanently change the way people commute between the city and the airport. It's not what Detroit will look like next year, but more like what will Detroit be in 20-50 years. Detroit cannot remain a major city -- and Metro Detroit cannot remain a major metropolitan area -- if the region doesn't start spending on alternative modes of transportation.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yet you live in Chicago, with awful transit for a Western city of its caliber. The rundown EL runs in the middle of giant freeways, wider even than Detroit, or on rickety wood platforms, and the suburban rail lines generally have poor service and are 90% diesel. Poor Eastern European cities with 20% the population and 10% the economy have higher ridership.

People in Detroit drive. The 12 people who happen to insist upon a rail link to the airport as a precondition for gracing the region with their presence can safely be ignored.

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https://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/FF26E0...0F5E33362.jpeg

https://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/73E9F5...AD14A6F06.jpeg

It’s a treat to post this on the train commute home.

Exaggerate much? The majority of trains running began service in 2015. The oldest rolling stock is from the 90’s. [[Blue and brown lines) but will retire from service soon. The city is spending $40-$100 million to rebuild each station. So yeah you’ve probably seen some of our oldest that got character. And yeah it sucks metra is running diesel, but I’m happy I can get to any suburb at just about any hour.


Transit to the airport will make Detroit a more competitive global city. Transit to neighborhoods will make it a more livable and affordable city.

Not everyone wants to drive and if transit presents itself and is effective [[beyond a poorly designed LRT system) it can win a lot of new riders.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

A train to DTW would certainly help, but I would visit Detroit more often if there were any mobility options available at all, besides cars. When I bring friends from out-of-town to visit Detroit they are in disbelief that the city has no train system.

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Obviously, transit in the region is bad, bad, bad, but this is a bit of an exaggeration. SMART's "FAST" service which began in January while just a start, is still a limited-stop service between downtown and Metro. In fact, I've only heard good things about FAST's four limited-stop routes since it's started.

Yeah, we need more, but to say there is aren't "any mobility options available at all, besides cars" is incorrect and being overdramatic.

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Originally Posted by Dexlin

Obviously any route that would serve the airport would almost assuredly use a major part of the Michigan Avenue corridor. Are we also acting like every trip on a route like this would be end-to-end? The idea that this would only serve business travelers seems like a very ignorant assumption.

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Sorry, but you're the one blithely assuming. This entire thread was created in the context of Elon Musk's tunneling efforts. Given that, it is not at all "obvious" or "assured" that local transit would be included. Musk is talking about building a point-to-point airport express connection in Chicago to circumvent the existing Blue Line connection. Musk also notoriously hates public transit and has a bunch of ideas about "door-to-door mesh networks" that are complete fantasy. His Boring Company was literally founded to try to move private cars through tunnels on sleds so that he could avoid traffic but also not have to see poor people. Now he's slowly falling back to some sort of actual transit for his tunnels because he's discovering that the economics and geometry of transit don't change just because you're rich.

Given all of that, the fact that Duggan is fixating on this is really disappointing. He should be saying "If Musk can successfully lower tunneling costs, we will look into tunneling under Woodward, Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River for high quality rapid transit." Not building airport express links to serve a tiny fraction of the populous, in imitation of a city that already has the type of local rapid transit Detroit totally lacks.

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Originally Posted by Dexlin

It appears to me that you are quite a few years behind the times on who owns the rail in this area and what exactly the hinderances are and aren't.

No new construction is needed, first of all, because the state now owns the line from West Detroit Junction in Detroit all the way west to Kalamazoo. Not only that, but the state has has re-doubled the track between between Dearborn to Yspi and put millions of dollars into refurbishing it, primarily for Amtrak. There is barely any freight service on this line, anymore, so traffic is no longer an issue.

The literal only issue and hidderance left for the service is political will. Had the millage for the RTA that very narrowly failed in 2016 passed, the planned service between the city and the airport would have been nothing to get off the ground. The state bought the locomotives which we still have, and had the Republicans in the legislature not thrown a fit over our lease of the cars, we'd still have those, too. There is already permission to use this line, basically.

Let's not mislead people. A basic commuter service on Amtrak/MDOT's Michigan Line could be restarted practically tomorrow. No new rail, not even refurbishment of the existing rail needs to be done.

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If my knowledge is a few years behind [[that' usually two or more years), then the fact that the state owns the rails lines from Detroit to Metro Airport and hasn't done anything is pitiful. Why wouldn't the political will be there? Is this that expensive to operate? Another question, "How far into the airport would this rail line go?" Clearly a shuttle or bus would have to take passengers the rest of the way. Given that fact, wouldn't the FAST bus not only get you to the airport, but pull right up to the two major terminals. Again, for the state not to speed up this process is pitiful, and if they are stalling because certain people won't be able to exclusively line their pockets, then that's just criminal.

I hope Duggan does not fall into Musk’s trap. His companies make fancy renderings and dream up whimsical ideas so municipal governments can open their taxpayer pocketbooks and fork over tax subsidies. A massively expensive tunnel that will serve a few thousand business travelers every day will not help ANYONE in Detroit, besides a very select few who are either from the suburbs or not even from the area.

If musk wants to help build Detroit, he can build tunnels or guideways for conventional light rail, not some space-age tunnel dream of little pods floating on magnets flying at 200mph from DTW to Campus Martius.

Detroit DOES NOT need a cutting edge solution. Maybe NY or Chicago, with their more advanced systems, but not Detroit. We need the basic essentials of transit:

1) Express buses on major arteries that run into downtown and crosstown; 15 min frequency in rush hr.

2) A light rail network with ~40 miles of track, one line down Woodward, another to Airport via SW Detroit/Vernor and railroad ROWs

3) A single transit agency with a single fare card.


It’s not rocket science- our polticians need to focus on building proven solutions, not ones from Elon Musk’s imagination. Focus on LRT and a better bus network. We can’t afford a third transit boondoggle.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yet you live in Chicago, with awful transit for a Western city of its caliber. The rundown EL runs in the middle of giant freeways, wider even than Detroit, or on rickety wood platforms, and the suburban rail lines generally have poor service and are 90% diesel. Poor Eastern European cities with 20% the population and 10% the economy have higher ridership.

People in Detroit drive. The 12 people who happen to insist upon a rail link to the airport as a precondition for gracing the region with their presence can safely be ignored.

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People need to stop hating on Chicago’s transit. While neither fast, clean, or extensive, it certainly isn’t slow, dirty, or minuscule. Chicago’s System does what few other American ones do- Get the job done. While DC is having fires once a week and massive disruptions, and NY is dealing with the breakdown of an intracite century old network of signals, Chicago’s system works- not good, not bad, just works.

Chicago has been investing in its rail for a long time now. They rehabbed the Douglas Branch [[2002), Green Line full [[1994), Red Line South [[2013), Brown Line full [[2007), Red Line north [[current), and Blue Line to OHare [[current). They are doing what a transit system should be doing and focusing on maintenance.

And on the commuter rail point, have you ever seen trains on the BNSF racetrack in rush hour? They are diesel but can push 80-90mph. Chicago’s diesels are better than its electrics [[See: SSL)

Direct rail links sound awesome but as I mentioned in another thread, that method and technology may already be antiquated. At least we know it’s expensive. Why can’t Detroit come up with better solutions to problems as it did at the turn of the 20th century. We have the talent and certainly the motivation. We just need ideas.

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Originally Posted by SammyS

Direct rail links sound awesome but as I mentioned in another thread, that method and technology may already be antiquated. At least we know it’s expensive. Why can’t Detroit come up with better solutions to problems as it did at the turn of the 20th century. We have the talent and certainly the motivation. We just need ideas.

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Because you know....racism, Oakland and Macomb Counties

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

I'm not sure what you're arguing, as no one said "there should be no public transit links to major airport".

Re-read my previous comments. I wrote that such rail links aren't particularly important, which is true. They have low ridership, even in the Paris/London/NYC type cities, and are essentially irrelevant to overall transit ridership and regional mobility, which is why a region like ours shouldn't be wasting time discussing such a marginal issue.

The rail link to DeGaulle probably has the best conditions on earth for such a line [[#1 tourist city on the planet, probably best suburban rail system in world) yet the RER link to CDG only generates like 30k riders in a system that carries like 8 million daily rail passengers.

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Not sure about Paris, but I don't think 30k riders is not marginal.

Also, in London, 41% of passengers arrived at the Heathrow airport via public transit, 52% at Stanstead and 42% at Gatwick. I wouldn't call that low ridership.

And it doesn't matter if airport rail links are relevant to the rest of the system. It provides an important amenity that makes these cities more attractive to business, tourists and residents alike.

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Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

Because you know....racism, Oakland and Macomb Counties

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I highly suggest you call Uber or Lyft, because it sounds like you don't have a vehicle and get out much, and actually take a trip and look around Oakland and Macomb counties. In my friend's block, where homes are between $360 - $500K, there are 3 "black" families alone, kids, grandma, the whole 9 yards. We go into higher-end restaurants, and there are black couples, inter-racial couples, mixed "color" friends, eating, drinking, and having good times. It's the same way in the Points. Sitting on a forum, spewing tired old 60's racist dogma, isn't helping anyone.

I'd like to see them make better use of the Amtrak rail that runs right by the airport. Why not make better use of it by adding a "train" or something similar that can run on the already existing track from the airport to downtown? With Ford resurrecting the MCS, it makes me wonder if there is a future in rail. As for the northern counties, is there that much demand to spend a gazillion dollars on a project like this? I'm not seeing it.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

A train to DTW would certainly help, but I would visit Detroit more often if there were any mobility options available at all, besides cars. When I bring friends from out-of-town to visit Detroit they are in disbelief that the city has no train system.

These discussions about whether Detroit should spend on transit tend to be extremely flawed. If you own a house in Metro Detroit and you don't want it to be worthless in 20 years, you should be the biggest cheerleader of these transit projects, whether you live near it or not. Transit investment [[or lack of) is something that will benefit [[or not) a region for decades down the line. The effects of it will go on long after many of us have died.

A train link to DTW would permanently change the way people commute between the city and the airport. It's not what Detroit will look like next year, but more like what will Detroit be in 20-50 years. Detroit cannot remain a major city -- and Metro Detroit cannot remain a major metropolitan area -- if the region doesn't start spending on alternative modes of transportation.

---

To be honest, the only thing flawed is your not understanding what has been happening to the jobs in Detroit for a very long time. Cranking the property tax rate ever higher has made it way too easy for all companies large and small to make their capital improvements in buildings elsewhere.

When the property tax rate on a new facility is half of Detroit’s out in Walled Lake or Auburn Hills, take a wild guess at what happens? In Atlanta the property tax rate is 6 times lower than Detroit’s. Same problem on steroids.

Detroit just can’t make exceptions and abatements for property taxes indefinitely.

Fine if all the new professional residents are good with paying high taxes in the rent [[although a shit load of them live in NEZ properties ironically) you're still crushing the lower and middle class by raising them yet again to get what you want. Taking jobs and housing and destroying both in one FUBAR tax rate.

The 40% that live in poverty in Detroit really don’t have “20 years” to see how well your idea pans out. They need jobs and opportunity in their neighborhoods close to home now, ASAP!

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I highly suggest you call Uber or Lyft, because it sounds like you don't have a vehicle and get out much, and actually take a trip and look around Oakland and Macomb counties. In my friend's block, where homes are between $360 - $500K, there are 3 "black" families alone, kids, grandma, the whole 9 yards. We go into higher-end restaurants, and there are black couples, inter-racial couples, mixed "color" friends, eating, drinking, and having good times. It's the same way in the Points. Sitting on a forum, spewing tired old 60's racist dogma, isn't helping anyone.

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I'm so glad regional racism is now dead with your anecdotal black families and inter-racial couples.

Calling out continued regional policies based in historical racially motivated thought [[i.e. whites have access to suburbs and cars more than their black counterparts) is not racist.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

The 40% that live in poverty in Detroit really don’t have “20 years” to see how well your idea pans out. They need jobs and opportunity in their neighborhoods close to home now, ASAP!

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You probably would've said that 20, 30, 40 years ago and look where we still are.

I like how you call this an "idea" as if it doesn't exist anywhere else on earth except oh wait it does. Literally everywhere.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

You probably would've said that 20, 30, 40 years ago and look where we still are.

I like how you call this an "idea" as if it doesn't exist anywhere else on earth except oh wait it does. Literally everywhere.

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The lies that the pro rail people will tell. It’s just shameful.

This list hardly looks like “everywhere.”


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...s_by_ridership

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

The lies that the pro rail people will tell. It’s just shameful.

This list hardly looks like “everywhere.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...s_by_ridership

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The idea isn't rail ridership. The idea is investing in public transit and the economic and social benefits it provides.

And you showing me a list of 30 commuter rail systems in the U.S. isn't exactly disproving my point. In fact, I'm unsure what you're trying to show considering most of the big regions that we are trying to compete with it are on there. Then again, we are also on a global stage and we're still struggling.

Please show me a study about the economic benefits of Uber/Lyft that equate to the same benefits of mass transit systems. I'd love to see it.

This Duggan thing, while forward thinking, is probably not going to happen. It's just him trying to show how open he is to big projects. That's nice.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I'm so glad regional racism is now dead with your anecdotal black families and inter-racial couples.

Calling out continued regional policies based in historical racially motivated thought [[i.e. whites have access to suburbs and cars more than their black counterparts) is not racist.

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Thank you Dr. King. No, racism isn't totally dead, but people keep propagating it by posting half truths.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Thank you Dr. King. No, racism isn't totally dead, but people keep propagating it by posting half truths.

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You're welcome.

Regional transit since the 1960s/70s has always seen thinly-veiled racial attitudes. Any Free Press editorial or letter to the editor in the 70s and 80s will attest to this. "We don't want you people in our suburb."

But today it's "drug traffickers", "poor people only use transit", and "make them pay for it". Same old, same old.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

To be honest, the only thing flawed is your not understanding what has been happening to the jobs in Detroit for a very long time. Cranking the property tax rate ever higher has made it way too easy for all companies large and small to make their capital improvements in buildings elsewhere.

When the property tax rate on a new facility is half of Detroit’s out in Walled Lake or Auburn Hills, take a wild guess at what happens? In Atlanta the property tax rate is 6 times lower than Detroit’s. Same problem on steroids.

Detroit just can’t make exceptions and abatements for property taxes indefinitely.

Fine if all the new professional residents are good with paying high taxes in the rent [[although a shit load of them live in NEZ properties ironically) you're still crushing the lower and middle class by raising them yet again to get what you want. Taking jobs and housing and destroying both in one FUBAR tax rate.

The 40% that live in poverty in Detroit really don’t have “20 years” to see how well your idea pans out. They need jobs and opportunity in their neighborhoods close to home now, ASAP!

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I think you're the one not seeing the big picture. Metro Detroit has not kept pace on wages or property values relative to most other major American cities. Of the top 15 metro areas, only Miami has a lower median income. Population growth has been anemic in Metro Detroit for far longer than I've been alive.

These regional issues aren't rectified by moving a company from the city to the 'burbs. The murder rate in Detroit isn't causing it, either. And if low taxes were the answer, suburban Detroit should've carried the area to prosperity. Instead, what we've witnessed, is a certain group of suburban Detroit leaders driving the region towards the edge of the cliff.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Same old, same old.

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I agree, if people are against what I want, well then it must be racist.

A subway in Detroit. We have tried that in the late 1920s but those car companies wants us to buy their cars instead.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I agree, if people are against what I want, well then it must be racist.

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Not at all, but if one is using social parameters to be against transit then yes there are racial undertones.

If you're against it because you don't want to payer higher taxes, then I'll just call you cheap. Us metro Detroiters are used to cheap living. We feel entitled to living like Manhattan but don't exactly want to pay for it. Then we wonder why our roads suck, our power goes out multiple times a year, our schools suck, our kids are leaving after college, and our population has basically been the same for the past 45 years.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Not at all, but if one is using social parameters to be against transit then yes there are racial undertones.

If you're against it because you don't want to payer higher taxes, then I'll just call you cheap. Us metro Detroiters are used to cheap living. We feel entitled to living like Manhattan but don't exactly want to pay for it. Then we wonder why our roads suck, our power goes out multiple times a year, our schools suck, our kids are leaving after college, and our population has basically been the same for the past 45 years.

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Actually, none of that has anything to do with being cheap. What you call cheap, I see as funds being misappropriated. Money was there, enough to go around. Instead of it being used wisely and spent for what it was intended, it was spent on other things. Can you tell me why MDOT spent 41 mil paving Penske's racetrack instead of roads? Where did the money come from for white lines and plastic sticks for the bike lanes? Now Dugg'in is trying to sell a Stargate tunnel that by it's very existence, will put Detroit back on the map. People Remover, Blight Rail, Magic Tunnel, Billionaire Stadiums, always pie-in-the-sky, always the cart in front of the horse, and always, and the solution is more money. Chicago is building a tunnel because there's a need in Chicago for a tunnel. Detroit wants one, well, because all the other kids have one.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Actually, none of that has anything to do with being cheap. What you call cheap, I see as funds being misappropriated. Money was there, enough to go around. Instead of it being used wisely and spent for what it was intended, it was spent on other things. Can you tell me why MDOT spent 41 mil paving Penske's racetrack instead of roads? Where did the money come from for white lines and plastic sticks for the bike lanes? Now Dugg'in is trying to sell a Stargate tunnel that by it's very existence, will put Detroit back on the map. People Remover, Blight Rail, Magic Tunnel, Billionaire Stadiums, always pie-in-the-sky, always the cart in front of the horse, and always, and the solution is more money. Chicago is building a tunnel because there's a need in Chicago for a tunnel. Detroit wants one, well, because all the other kids have one.

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Well considering this project isn't going to happen, Duggan is just open to big idea projects, something we've sorely lacked in this town for generations.

I can't tell you why MDOT does the things it does and no one has been able to for the past 50 years, but it has nothing to do with the RTA.

And there's nothing wrong with dedicated bike lanes and barriers. Motorists bitch and moan when they have to share the road and now bitch and moan when bicyclists get "special treatment" for their own lanes [[how ironic and laughable). Money well spent in my book.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Well considering this project isn't going to happen, Duggan is just open to big idea projects, something we've sorely lacked in this town for generations.

I can't tell you why MDOT does the things it does and no one has been able to for the past 50 years, but it has nothing to do with the RTA.

And there's nothing wrong with dedicated bike lanes and barriers. Motorists bitch and moan when they have to share the road and now bitch and moan when bicyclists get "special treatment" for their own lanes [[how ironic and laughable). Money well spent in my book.

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You might want to try reading on a Kindle.

I simply cannot imagine relying on transit in any form to get to and from work or shopping. Maybe simply because of my own non-traditional schedule. I always worked odd somewhat flexible hours and frequently [[as in most days) went different places either before, during or immediately after work. I needed a car, flat out could not have done it any other way.

When I went shopping, even for groceries, I went to several stores in each trip, carrying items from each. There is simply no way I could have done that by bus.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

You might want to try reading on a Kindle.

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Nope. Never.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

And if low taxes were the answer, suburban Detroit should've carried the area to prosperity.

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The lower taxes in the suburbs are only lower relative to Detroit.

Lansing rigged the system to benefit the suburbs and strip the wealth and jobs out of Detroit and move them to the suburbs.

The really stupid part is that while they concentrated on that job, other states where lining up and doing the exact same thing to Michigan.

Property taxes in all of Michigan are too high to compete very well nationally, but in Detroit they are a death knell they are so high. 90 mills is supposed to keep people confused. If you don’t know what that means please learn the math.

I support public transportation but it has to be funded by the same successful tax vehicles it is elsewhere. Like in your hometown for example. If public transport has the same lousy tax vehicle hitched to it it will be underfunded, fail and face a day of reckoning when the property tax rates are finally examined as the major growth inhibiter they are. It will happen just like it did to the personal property tax here. It is not a matter of ‘if’ just a matter of ‘when.’ What we have going on is unsustainable long term in relation to other states. They are literally eating off our plate, taking our most talented people away and the jobs that go with them.

https://taxfoundation.org/how-high-a...es-your-state/

https://treas-secure.state.mi.us/pte...TEstimator.asp

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

The idea isn't rail ridership. The idea is investing in public transit and the economic and social benefits it provides.

And you showing me a list of 30 commuter rail systems in the U.S. isn't exactly disproving my point. In fact, I'm unsure what you're trying to show considering most of the big regions that we are trying to compete with it are on there. Then again, we are also on a global stage and we're still struggling.

Please show me a study about the economic benefits of Uber/Lyft that equate to the same benefits of mass transit systems. I'd love to see it.

This Duggan thing, while forward thinking, is probably not going to happen. It's just him trying to show how open he is to big projects. That's nice.

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In no way do I support Uber as a viable solution to public transportation. You must have me confused with someone else.

I just answered iheartthed my feelings on public transportation. It does have links but not the ones your looking for.

The lower taxes in the suburbs are only lower relative to Detroit.

Lansing rigged the system to benefit the suburbs and strip the wealth and jobs out of Detroit and move them to the suburbs.

The really stupid part is that while they concentrated on that job, other states where lining up and doing the exact same thing to Michigan.

Property taxes in all of Michigan are too high to compete very well nationally, but in Detroit they are a death knell they are so high. 90 mills is supposed to keep people confused. If you don’t know what that means please learn the math.

I support public transportation but it has to be funded by the same successful tax vehicles it is elsewhere. If public transport has the same lousy tax vehicle hitched to it it will be underfunded, fail and face a day of reckoning when the property tax rates are finally examined as the major growth inhibiter they are. It will happen just like it did to the personal property tax here. It is not a matter of ‘if’ just a matter of ‘when.’ What we have going on is unsustainable long term in relation to other states. They are literally eating off our plate, taking our most talented people away and the jobs that go with them.

https://taxfoundation.org/how-high-a...es-your-state/

https://treas-secure.state.mi.us/pte...TEstimator.asp

There this thingy detroit has no other city has underground salt mine tunnels think out side of the box people

The salt mines are already there ready for a elec train just elevators are needed to reach the tunnels at 150 down as for the crap buss system i road it to trenton it wont drop you off at telegraph cause the ignorant city morons in wood haven brownstown

Just came across this article this a.m.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/c...mate&smtyp=cur

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Originally Posted by canuck

Just came across this article this a.m.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/c...mate&smtyp=cur

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The real irony is that David Koch lives in New York City, which has one of the best public transit systems in the entire world. He should go live in Detroit or Nashville with that attitude.

NYC may have lots of lines and stops on its public transit system, but it is probably the single worst-managed system of any major city.

That being said, I'm not really interested in hearing the Koch brothers' opinions on mass transit when the research they cite was funded by....drumroll... The Koch brothers, who also have business interests in auto and highway transit.

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Originally Posted by EGrant

NYC may have lots of lines and stops on its public transit system, but it is probably the single worst-managed system of any major city.

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That's a pretty impossible thing to measure, since no other major city has a system anywhere near as complex. Also, NYC's transit system is operated by a state owned agency. It is not owned by the city of New York.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EGrant

NYC may have lots of lines and stops on its public transit system, but it is probably the single worst-managed system of any major city.

That being said, I'm not really interested in hearing the Koch brothers' opinions on mass transit when the research they cite was funded by....drumroll... The Koch brothers, who also have business interests in auto and highway transit.

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I believe in the Times I recently read that the MTA spend TWICE as much per mile on new construction as the Paris Metro. The labour loving French in their capital only do half as good a job of fleecing taxpayers and transit users as NYC's MTA. They should be ashamed!

As to Koch brothers, the Times article [[on Nashville transit vote, which you probably read) is pretty off-base.

Kochs believe new technologies, like autonomous vehicles, offer a better option. Its not about cashing in. They are unabashed classic liberals and libertarians who are not impressed by how gov't runs things -- see the MTA cost per mile note in first paragraph.

To suggest that their motive is to profit from roads is wrong.

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Originally Posted by EGrant

NYC may have lots of lines and stops on its public transit system, but it is probably the single worst-managed system of any major city.

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If by "worst managed" you mean highest cost structure, then I agree. But NYC has the highest transit cost structure in the U.S., which has the highest transit cost structure of any nation.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with managing the system per se. It's that NYC is expensive, and the MTA operates the largest subway system on earth, which is aging and has massive legacy costs.