So, is anyone ever going to do anything about Hart Plaza?

Just spent the long weekend at the Detroit Jazz Festival. The music was, of course, magnificent as always [[at least until the rains came on Monday and screwed everything up). And the volunteers who give up their weekend for the event were amazing. The crowds were as big as I've ever seen.

But every year the main venue where the festival takes place gets more and more decrepit. Almost all of the stones on the plaza itself are cracked and coming apart, loose or chipped stones and unsteady footing are everywhere and accidents seem inevitable, at least one of the stairways appears to be on the verge of collapse, water is leaking from pipes all over the place and rainwater isn't draining properly so some walkways had to be closed because of standing water, parts of the main amphitheater were awash in suspiciously smelly water seeping out from between the stones all weekend, and I don't even want to talk about the appalling state of the restrooms.

The decay of Hart Plaza has been apparent for many years. But the plaza's state is now verging on the unusable. Several years ago, when things were a lot more desperate around here, it was understandable that the situation went unaddressed. But now, with development popping out all over, lavish sums of public money being thrown at facilities for privately-owned sports teams, and huge improvements having been made to other public areas like Campus Martius and the Riverwalk, leaving one of the city's major public event areas in such a state seems both shameful and irresponsible. Bringing out-of-town and international visitors there for this event, as I do every year, has become increasingly embarrassing.

Yet neither the city itself, who is ultimately responsible for the plaza, nor any of the usual suspects among our city's regular benefactors, seem to be stepping up to the plate at all. And thus the decay continues unabated. There has been some vague talk in the recent past of significantly reconfiguring the plaza, or of scraping it and starting over with a different concept. However, it sure seems like the urgent need now is not pie-in-the-sky conceptualizing, but just to address and stabilize the current situation and assure that the plaza is reasonably clean, safe, and usable for upcoming events.

Hard to disagree with anything you said. I'm not sure what the short term answer is. Is the site used for anything other than Movement and the Jazz festival anymore? Perhaps they should fill in the amphitheater, level the ground and replace the paving stones with grass except for a couple of paths to the river. You could put a stage at each end for events.

yes, master planning efforts have been ongoing. I thought the public would've seen something over the summer. once joe louis meets the wrecking ball, everything should come to light

Unless you're a political contributor, nothing gets attention. If it was a stadium or arena, no problem.

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Originally Posted by hybridy

yes, master planning efforts have been ongoing. I thought the public would've seen something over the summer. once joe louis meets the wrecking ball, everything should come to light

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Any details you can share?

Here is a list of the events that were scheduled there this summer:

May 13 Red Bull Hart Lines Skateboarding Competition
May 27-29, Movement Electronic Music Festival
June 2 - 4, Albanian American Festival
June 10 -11, Motor City Pride
June 17, Purple Stride Detroit [[moved to Chene Park due to conditions at Hart Plaza)
June 26, Ford Fireworks
July 6-9 Detroit Motorcycle City [[postponed to 2018)
July 11-12, Hart Grub and Groove
July 14-16 Paradise Valley Music Festival
July 18-19, Hart Grub and Groove
July 25-26, Hart Grub and Groove
July 29 -30, Arab and Chaldean Festival
August 11 -13, Ribs & R&B Music Fest
September 2 - 4, Detroit Jazz Festival
September 7 - 10, Marine Week
September 23, Metro Detroit Out of the Darkness Walk
October 21, Making Strides Against Breast Cancer Walk

Plus some dance party events for downtown workers, etc. that are listed on the Plaza's marquee.

Yes, Hart Plaza has been decrepit for a while and the increased traffic makes it look that much worse and hastens it's demise.

Admittedly, it needs immediate attention but, to me, it seems like a waste to patch it when it needs an overhaul and there is going both new development and new public space coming soon.

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Originally Posted by Shai_Hulud

Yes, Hart Plaza has been decrepit for a while and the increased traffic makes it look that much worse and hastens it's demise.

Admittedly, it needs immediate attention but, to me, it seems like a waste to patch it when it needs an overhaul and there is going both new development and new public space coming soon.

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I have always believed the best use of Hart Plaza is as a festival site.

It doesn't work as a park, because the location south of downtown prevents much [[if any) pass-through pedestrian traffic. Thus it gets the stadium-on-non-event-days feel.

Not a popular opinion on here [[as most posters don't need to consider the financial bottom line in their posts), but they should put up an aesthetically pleasing barrier around the plaza, and charge admission to those who enter for festivals. The revenue collected could help pay the neglected maintenance costs, and that way it would not be a financial drag on the city.

Why not narrow it a bit and return some of the land to development? We lost a lot of city when they laid out that park.

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Originally Posted by Atticus

I have always believed the best use of Hart Plaza is as a festival site.

It doesn't work as a park, because the location south of downtown prevents much [[if any) pass-through pedestrian traffic. Thus it gets the stadium-on-non-event-days feel.

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It is certainly that way now, however that's at least partially due to design. First, there are the 8 lanes of Jefferson to deal with, then you have a park that is mostly concrete baking in the sun, and little worth walking to on either side.

Development of the West Riverfront and redevelopment of the Joe will help with pass through and destinations. If anything ever comes to fruition east of the Rencen or on the Ford Auditorium site, so much the better.

The festivals are important, and better in Hart Plaza than pushed further out, so they need to be a major consideration in a redesign. But if the city, or at least downtown, continues to re-densify, some green decompression space will be increasingly appreciated.

It looks really bad and jaded. There is way too much pavement, and not enough green. But I suppose being a festival site, that is kind of demanded. Perhaps they can find some way to break up the sight lines with green and still preserve a lot of space and still be good for festivals.

I've never been to a festival there, but I could imagine if they planted trees that people would climb them so much they wouldn't do very well.

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Originally Posted by Shai_Hulud

It is certainly that way now, however that's at least partially due to design. First, there are the 8 lanes of Jefferson to deal with, then you have a park that is mostly concrete baking in the sun, and little worth walking to on either side.

Development of the West Riverfront and redevelopment of the Joe will help with pass through and destinations. If anything ever comes to fruition east of the Rencen or on the Ford Auditorium site, so much the better.

The festivals are important, and better in Hart Plaza than pushed further out, so they need to be a major consideration in a redesign. But if the city, or at least downtown, continues to re-densify, some green decompression space will be increasingly appreciated.

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The thing is though, even if Jefferson wasn't a pain to get across for pedestrians, why would people do it? Where are they going to, and where are they coming from?

Jane Jacobs does a much better job than I ever could describing why some parks work, and others don't. But the point is, even if money was no object and Hart Plaza was converted into a perfectly manicured oasis of green space, about the only people who would use it [[at first) are the few who want to get away from everyone else in isolation. The problem with that, as Jacobs describes, is that sets up a situation ripe for crime, and the lack of passer-throughs makes people feel unsafe.

As far as the potential developments on the East Riverfront and the Joe Louis arena site, that would be great, but all those pedestrian trips would be along the river walk, and not up into the plaza.

It is important to note there is no residential surrounding Hart Plaza today, which makes it worse as a public park... but great as a festival site because there are no residents to disturb. Just make the area above the stairs the festival site, keep the river walk path open and free, and call it a day. We can dream of a green space park, but functionally and financially, the festival site is the best use of the site.

I agree. I love Hart Plaza, broken concrete and all. The spherical theme, the pyramid stage, the loop from underground stage to amphitheater all make it a unique place and perfect for festivals. The labor circle looks great against the rectangular buildings. It does need some upkeep though and maybe some added bowl seating above the amphitheater bowl. Many festivals are pushing past capacity there.

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Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Here is a list of the events that were scheduled there this summer:

May 13 Red Bull Hart Lines Skateboarding Competition
May 27-29, Movement Electronic Music Festival
June 2 - 4, Albanian American Festival
June 10 -11, Motor City Pride
June 17, Purple Stride Detroit [[moved to Chene Park due to conditions at Hart Plaza)
June 26, Ford Fireworks
July 6-9 Detroit Motorcycle City [[postponed to 2018)
July 11-12, Hart Grub and Groove
July 14-16 Paradise Valley Music Festival
July 18-19, Hart Grub and Groove
July 25-26, Hart Grub and Groove
July 29 -30, Arab and Chaldean Festival
August 11 -13, Ribs & R&B Music Fest
September 2 - 4, Detroit Jazz Festival
September 7 - 10, Marine Week
September 23, Metro Detroit Out of the Darkness Walk
October 21, Making Strides Against Breast Cancer Walk

Plus some dance party events for downtown workers, etc. that are listed on the Plaza's marquee.

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The problem with keeping it as a festival site is the lack of festivals. This list can easily be boiled down to 4-5 events that make good use of Hart Plaza. The Hoedown and others moved out due to the cost of renting the site. Not certain what the solution is, but lots more events are necessary to justify it as a festival site.

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Originally Posted by 401don

The problem with keeping it as a festival site is the lack of festivals. This list can easily be boiled down to 4-5 events that make good use of Hart Plaza. The Hoedown and others moved out due to the cost of renting the site. Not certain what the solution is, but lots more events are necessary to justify it as a festival site.

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But a big part of the reason for the lack of festivals is the state of the plaza, especially given what the city now charges for its use. Other than the central location, why would you have your festival there when you have to pay an arm and a leg for a space that looks like it's been barely maintained for 20 years and where basic facilities are lacking or in poor condition?

Hart Plaza was full of festivals for many years after it opened. Pretty much one every weekend during the warm weather months. Obviously one big reason for the decline in the number of festivals was the decline in everything around here, from the economy to the population, for many years. But another big reason was the city's ill-fated move to make the plaza 'profitable', by raising the rates for it use above those of other comparable venues, which chased away several of the remaining festivals and turned the place into a very unprofitable ad ill-maintained wasteland for much of the year. Instead of being an attraction to people and a center of activity and life for the city as it had originally functioned, it became a dead zone.

But now the city has moved past those bad times and there's all kinds of life sprouting up in and around downtown. That could include more festivals, more people, and more life right at the heart of the city [[as it does during Jazz Fest and Movement). But only if someone can get Hart Plaza back together again as a decent place to hold them.

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Originally Posted by EGrant

Any details you can share?

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No more that I can share. This was from a colleague with a close working relationship to Maurice cox's office.

heres a competition plan from 2013 to ponder:
https://www.plbny.com/plb-studioproj...terplan-depart

I don't think we really need to, or should, screw around with the fundamentals of Noguchi's unique design so much. What's needed most now, it seems to me, are the little things. As I've said before, how about starting with some simple maintenance?

Just basic cleaning up, patching of concrete, repointing of stonework, light bulb replacement, simple bathroom plumbing work, simple electrical upgrades, and other small inexpensive things would go a long ways towards making it a better, more usable, and less embarrassing space. If this costs too much for the city to take on, perhaps the raising of some private money, as has been done for other parks and is regularly done in other cities, could be of use here. We can move from there to larger tweaks to the design to make it a bit more practical for current use.

I think the location "problem" is a red herring though. Back when the plaza was in more regular use it really wasn't that much of a problem and plenty of people flowed in and out of the place. Certainly waterfront parks and plazas in Chicago, or Washington, or the west side of Manhattan, or at the point in Pittsburgh, function as destinations themselves and are hardly underutilized despite the fact that people can't 'pass through' them on the way to somewhere else.

A rarity, there are good and clear points in every post on this thread. Thanks for starting it, EastSideAl.

You are 100% correct that some basic maintenance and cleaning need to be done pronto. I suppose the powers that be are awaiting a plan to substantially remake the park for the future, so they are reluctant to put any money into it now. My Mom worked in the City-County Building when I was a kid, so I spent ample summer afternoons and evenings in Hart Plaza. Not much, though, in the intervening years.

Assuming maintenance and cleaning are done, though, it still has a few fundamental flaws. Biggest among them: when there isn't a festival, what is Hart Plaza? It's not a playground. It is not a garden. It is not a destination-style park, with regular attractions. It does not have ball fields. The location is terrific, if a bit forbidding [[yes, Jefferson is too wide, RenCen and Cobo are a bit of a hike either way).

If I were put in charge of planning, I would make it central to visiting downtown. I would put bike & segway rentals there, tourist info kiosks & central ticketing for plays, concerts, sports events etc. I would do a "mobile food court" with food carts and trucks out on the plaza itself. I would morph the Ford Auditorium site into a "great lawn" with daily programming from concerts to summer evening movies, to yoga and dancing. Something every day of the week during good weather. I would put a giant outdoor ice rink on the great lawn for 3 months every winter, with free skating and youth hockey. I also think I'd convert the current amphitheater into a skateboard park. And I would dot the plaza with even more trees and flowers. It is so big and open that without a lot of people there doing things it seems desolate and frigid in a way smaller parks never do. Oh, and I think the various sculptures & fountains [[and I would add more) should be lit in the evening so there is a fantastic modern light show.

So, to sum up, Hart Plaza needs more maintenance, more cleaning, and just plain more.

I was JUST going to make a Hart Plaza post when I saw this...

I would say, however, that Hart Plaza needs to have more stairways to the riverfront. Most people going to Riverfront from Downtown cut through the RenCen, Hart Plaza needs to be more accessible in that regard. In addition, can we get rid of the parking lot on the Riverfront between RenCen and Hart Plaza? It looks tacky.

Hart Plaza's primary role, in the early years, was to host "ethnic festivals", which were mostly legacy festivals for the European immigrants.

Frankly, those festivals don't make sense anymore, because most of of the participants have passed away. Back in the 70's, there were still tons of first generation Italians, Poles, Germans from postwar immigration. Nowadays not so much and the subsequent generations are living in Macomb Township and fully Americanized.

While I feel festivals are an important part of the function of the park, it needs to become a place for visitors to congregate and want to visit on non event days. During the summer the riverwalk through there is packed, as is Campus Martius, and a new design needs to connect these two areas better as well as give people reason to stay in the park.

How do you do that? For starters a fountain that works more than one weekend a year as a draw, but you add public art and things to activate the area. As was mentioned above, food trucks and rentals of bike or segways is a great way to get people in. A brick and mortar restaurant or two near Jefferson would also help and I think at this point in Detroit's recovery could be profitable.

Ideally I would love to see it become some sort of cross between the festival friendly space it is now and Millennium Park in Chicago. There is enough land to do a bit of both and make it a larger draw while retaining the usefulness it has now.

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Originally Posted by southen

While I feel festivals are an important part of the function of the park, it needs to become a place for visitors to congregate and want to visit on non event days. During the summer the riverwalk through there is packed, as is Campus Martius, and a new design needs to connect these two areas better as well as give people reason to stay in the park.

How do you do that? For starters a fountain that works more than one weekend a year as a draw, but you add public art and things to activate the area. As was mentioned above, food trucks and rentals of bike or segways is a great way to get people in. A brick and mortar restaurant or two near Jefferson would also help and I think at this point in Detroit's recovery could be profitable.

Ideally I would love to see it become some sort of cross between the festival friendly space it is now and Millennium Park in Chicago. There is enough land to do a bit of both and make it a larger draw while retaining the usefulness it has now.

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A fountain that doesn't look like an inverted robot's butthole would be nice...

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Originally Posted by hybridy

No more that I can share. This was from a colleague with a close working relationship to Maurice cox's office.

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Figured as much. I appreciate the reply.

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Originally Posted by ParisianLesion

A fountain that doesn't look like an inverted robot's butthole would be nice...

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I happen to like the butthole. When it is running and lit it is pretty cool.

I like it too. And ever since I was a kid and first saw it I heard how it was designed to do a lot more interesting things with the water but that the city has never gotten those extra features to work. It's been just as long that I've been hoping one day to finally see the intended design. When Hart Plaza is finally renovated I really hope that's part of the plan.

And I like a lot about Hart Plaza besides the fountain. It's one of the most unusual public spaces and one of the most important designed by Noguchi. And it inspires wacky theorizing like this. It would be a shame to significantly alter it. Some may not appreciate it but it's one of the unique places the city offers that brings tourists to Detroit. He may not be your favorite, but Noguchi is world famous.

Like EastsideAl and others have said Hart Plaza needs basic repair and maintenance, the parking lot needs to go away, and so many other haphazard alterations need to be removed or redone in ways that don't so significantly detract from the design.

Regarding the location, I agree it's challenging. It's surrounded by the river, two pedestrian-unfriendly megacomplexes, and one of the city's most pedestrian unfriendly streets. And unlike in Manhattan and Chicago, there are very few people who live nearby. Those challenges are largely man made and somewhat fixable.

Do I remember correctly there was some serious discussion to replace the parking lot with some pedestrian friendly amenities? Done right, that would be a big help. Replacing Cobo with a district scaled for a human would be a big help. And I like the talk about making downtown more walkable. I hope they figure out how to tame the traffic on Jefferson. Eliminating 375 would help. Connecting it to the Lodge via a tunnel would be a much more expensive [[and less desirable) alternative. And of course more residential and retail nearby that's not walled off in a megacomplex would help too.

In other words, there are lots of ways to help that don't destroy Noguchi's design.

Here's that link again. It's fun to have a look:

Stargate Detroit
http://chadstuemke.com/stargate-detroit-i/

I never gave Hart Plaza's architectural cache much thought until you mentioned it, and so I turned up this article:

http://docomomo-us.org/news/the-litt...t-s-hart-plaza

Sounds to me like the park is hard, cold, not really what's needed, and in line to be demoed like others of its kind. Mr. Noguchi may have designed "playful" landscapes, but I'd rather play in Campus Martius, with its lush, tree-filled spaces and warm, accessible hardscapes.

I attend both Movement and the Jazz festival every year and I have no problems with Hart Plaza. Does it need matinence? Of course it does. The layout of the plaza works and functions fine for these largest events. Replace the apron to the river with some stamped concrete, do some paver stone maintenance and redo the bathrooms in stainless steel like the ones on the DNR side of The River Walk and the city could get MORE years out of HP

I could think of a hundred things the city could put finacial resources into in the neighborhoods. Downtown is doing well, it doesn't need a large capital investment in such a small area.

If private money wants to step up to the plate that's different. Detroits funds need to go where a majority of the citizens live. There has been plenty of neglect in the neighborhoods that needs to be addressed immediately that effects quality of human life.

I walked through this afternoon and much to my surprise the fountain was on. Instead of just passing through people were actually sitting and enjoying it. Just a thought.

It would be nice to have a new Welcome sign/marquee. The current one is very tired looking and needs updated. Just my two cents...

I was surprised to see that there were still a couple ethnic festivals - I thought they were long gone!

Along with the large festivals, the plaza also needs smaller events programmed during the week. Predictable series would be nice - jazz Mondays, R&B Tuesdays, etc. That assumes that there is more work put into it than collecting rent and hosing it off on Monday. Ultimately, more activity could help sales for the weekend.

One of the large charities like Kellogg may need to put in seed money. I wonder if the Riverfront Conservancy could take that on instead of the city, or if that would overwhelm them.

Looks like there's a fresh RFP on Hart Plaza:

https://detroitmi.gov/document/rfp-r...ate-hart-plaza

Anyone know anything about the scope here?

I would love to see Hart Plaza back when it was new. There were originally so many little accent lights that I've noticed the remains of in various concrete and stone forms. Should be a great asset to the city!

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Originally Posted by angry_fred

Looks like there's a fresh RFP on Hart Plaza:

https://detroitmi.gov/document/rfp-r...ate-hart-plaza

Anyone know anything about the scope here?

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Personally, I want it gone. It’s insanely ugly and you could easily build around the fountain. It should redeveloped with a street as it was back in the day. There are enough parks and space downtown, we density and beautiful classical architecture.....
I may be dreaming a little too much

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Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

we density

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I think you're dense enough.

I think if Hart Plaza was redesigned and utilized a little better, it would have a lot better value as a park. Movement is an awesome use of that space, but what about the cultural festivals that used to be there? Or a summer concert series? Or some kind of sporting events like a skateboard competition? I know the focus of downtown tends to be Campus Martius, but I think there's room to get more use out of Hart Plaza.

But if not, something like Cleveland's Flats area could be interesting. They built a lot of residential with bars and restaurants on the ground floor right on the river. It's a nice little nightlife area, if not a tad recent college grad-ish.

^^ EGrant... I remember the ethnic festivals back in the 1980s... they were wonderful when they were on the riverfront... they utilized the lower level spaces... perfect for that. And then by the 1990s... they were gone! I blame it on the Slovenians, Croatians, Serbians, Bosnia-Herzegovinians, Montenegrans and Kosovoans... they just couldn't keep it together as "Yugoslavians"... j/k :o

I was just looking up the architect's name who designed Hart Plaza...

Isamu Noguchi [[1904–1988) was one of the twentieth century's most important and critically acclaimed sculptors. Through a lifetime of artistic experimentation, he created sculptures, gardens, furniture and lighting designs, ceramics, architecture, and set designs.

Is Noguchi famous enough to warrant keeping the plaza intact? [[Not stating an opinion, just wondering). Or was Hart Plaza Noguchi's "stinkeroo"?

I don't want us to be like NYC Rockefeller Center... where they destroyed their Rivera Murals... unlike Detroit where we kept ours [[as unpopular as it was at the time), and treasure it today.

Will future generations look at us today and say "they destroyed a Naguchi masterpiece".

As I said, I'm no fan of it either... but just wondering... :confused:

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Originally Posted by Gistok

I don't want us to be like NYC Rockefeller Center... where they destroyed their Rivera Murals... unlike Detroit where we kept ours [[as unpopular as it was at the time), and treasure it today.

Will future generations look at us today and say "they destroyed a Naguchi masterpiece".

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The comparison is better than you think, because in the 1930s Noguchi was also providing artwork for Rockefeller Center. Noguchi is a more significant artist than Rivera though, although I think his DIA mural is a great fit for Detroit and something that has very deservingly become one of our city's icons.


But yeah Hart Plaza is a more significant piece of design than 99% of the buildings that get historic designations and sensitive historic renovations. It also has a lot of history, being a place where a lot of historical events took place, and it is also a place that is part of our shared collective memories. It's basically a textbook definition of something which needs historic protection. And it's actually a good design too, and more people would appreciate it if the city took competent care of the things it owns.

Like Ren Cen, which chose to ignore the river with its design, I thought the strangest thing about Hart Plaza was the underground. Why would you build a nice sit-down restaurant, I believe it was Japanese food, underground on the riverfront?

One thing I wish would be done with Hart Plaza is moving it level with the Riverwalk. I know that would mess up Atwater road under it, but that doesn't seem like that big of a loss. I would much rather have the stairs or a slope immediately after Jefferson, so you connect the plaza more with the Riverwalk.

Here some planned events that may not happen in 2021 socially due to COVID-19 still rampant:

1. The Movement 2021...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
2. Meridian Winter Blast...Might be cancelled again!
3. The Grand Prix...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
4. The Ford Fireworks...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
5. Woodward Dream Cruise...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
6. Michigan State Fair...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
7. Detroit Jazz Festival...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
8. Arts, Beats and Eats...only for those who vaccinated can attend.

At least fix the damn Dodge Fountain and get it working again.

Hart plaza has huge potential and you don't need to destroy it to realize it.

Mainly people need a reason to spend time there, there needs to be some shops and cafes/restaurants. The space needs some adjustments to become more intimate. Connect it with the riverfront better. And of course fill in the hole the Ford Auditorium left, I've been thinking in my head that it would be a great spot for a small [[midrise) hotel that directly connects to the plaza, it would guarantee 24 hour vibrancy.

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Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Hart plaza has huge potential and you don't need to destroy it to realize it.

Mainly people need a reason to spend time there, there needs to be some shops and cafes/restaurants. The space needs some adjustments to become more intimate. Connect it with the riverfront better. And of course fill in the hole the Ford Auditorium left, I've been thinking in my head that it would be a great spot for a small [[midrise) hotel that directly connects to the plaza, it would guarantee 24 hour vibrancy.

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I'm inclined to agree, but that doesn't mean we can't make huge changes. As another poster indicated, there's apparently a vacant restaurant space below it. I'd say we should do the following:

1. move the stairs to the river as far back as possible without having to move atwater. Cheap and easy.

2. Develop the auditorium site. Personally, I think it should be pushed all the way up against jefferson to create the feeling of continuity

3. Rehab what we have, get the fountain working

4. Pave the area between the fountain and the auditorium site to create a clear line of sight down woodward toward the river

5. Remove the police dept parking lot between atwater and the river. The cops can park in the Ford garage or maybe under the new development. That space can be made part of the riverwalk, or possibly just be made part of the auditorium development

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Originally Posted by Gistok

I was just looking up the architect's name who designed Hart Plaza...

Isamu Noguchi [[1904–1988) was one of the twentieth century's most important and critically acclaimed sculptors. Through a lifetime of artistic experimentation, he created sculptures, gardens, furniture and lighting designs, ceramics, architecture, and set designs.

Is Noguchi famous enough to warrant keeping the plaza intact? [[Not stating an opinion, just wondering). Or was Hart Plaza Noguchi's "stinkeroo"?

I don't want us to be like NYC Rockefeller Center... where they destroyed their Rivera Murals... unlike Detroit where we kept ours [[as unpopular as it was at the time), and treasure it today.

Will future generations look at us today and say "they destroyed a Naguchi masterpiece".

As I said, I'm no fan of it either... but just wondering... :confused:

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Yes, Noguchi is a very important artist and designer in the history of modern art, in the US, Japan, and elsewhere. With his mixed parentage, international education, and frequent traveling, he mixed Japanese aesthetic elements and use of materials with American and Western artistic forms in a way that created wholly new and starkly beautiful objects and landscapes. In addition to Hart Plaza, he is also connected to Michigan through his furniture designs for Herman Miller Inc. in Zeeland, some of which are still in production over 70 years later.

In my view, destroying Hart Plaza [[rather than repairing it and perhaps tweaking its functionality a bit) would be an act of artistic and cultural vandalism. One Detroit would come to regret, the same way we now regret tearing down City Hall or the Monroe Block, or regret destroying so many neighborhoods [[including the one that once stood where Hart Plaza is today) in the name of 'urban improvement'.

Noguchi is one of the few artists in the U.S. to have an entire museum devoted to his work [[in Queens NYC, just across the East River from Manhattan). Several years ago a friend of mine who is a producer for PBS in NYC, and knew Noguchi in his last years, made a film for the museum on Noguchi's public works. I helped her find photos and film in the possession of the City of Detroit, that were taken at the time of the plaza's construction and opening. You can see in the film many of the fine details, such as the lights K-slice mentions above, and the proper functioning of the fountain, which have been allowed to completely decay under the city's lack of stewardship.

Here is a page from the Noguchi Museum's website of his many public works [[parks, sculptures, landscaping, etc.), including Hart Plaza:
https://www.noguchi.org/artworks/public-works/

Noguchi's bio from the museum:
https://www.noguchi.org/isamu-noguch...phy/biography/

The city really needs to decide what they want Hart Plaza to be. As a festival site, with large crowds moving about it's current design is fine. As an everyday park, where people would spend leisure time, they need benches, tables, pathways, a lot less concrete, etc. Can you design a park that meets both needs? I'm not certain.

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Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Yes, Noguchi is a very important artist and designer in the history of modern art, in the US, Japan, and elsewhere. With his mixed parentage, international education, and frequent traveling, he mixed Japanese aesthetic elements and use of materials with American and Western artistic forms in a way that created wholly new and starkly beautiful objects and landscapes. In addition to Hart Plaza, he is also connected to Michigan through his furniture designs for Herman Miller Inc. in Zeeland, some of which are still in production over 70 years later.

In my view, destroying Hart Plaza [[rather than repairing it and perhaps tweaking its functionality a bit) would be an act of artistic and cultural vandalism. One Detroit would come to regret, the same way we now regret tearing down City Hall or the Monroe Block, or regret destroying so many neighborhoods [[including the one that once stood where Hart Plaza is today) in the name of 'urban improvement'.

Noguchi is one of the few artists in the U.S. to have an entire museum devoted to his work [[in Queens NYC, just across the East River from Manhattan). Several years ago a friend of mine who is a producer for PBS in NYC, and knew Noguchi in his last years, made a film for the museum on Noguchi's public works. I helped her find photos and film in the possession of the City of Detroit, that were taken at the time of the plaza's construction and opening. You can see in the film many of the fine details, such as the lights K-slice mentions above, and the proper functioning of the fountain, which have been allowed to completely decay under the city's lack of stewardship.

Here is a page from the Noguchi Museum's website of his many public works [[parks, sculptures, landscaping, etc.), including Hart Plaza:
https://www.noguchi.org/artworks/public-works/

Noguchi's bio from the museum:
https://www.noguchi.org/isamu-noguch...phy/biography/

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Your well stated post is what I struggle with when it comes to this topic. Unlike a singular structure, this space is made for the public to inhabit it and spend time there. Outside of large events the space sadly fails at that. I will often go there to photograph the city and even in the summer I am lucky if I see more than a dozen people actually hanging out in the park. Everyone seems to walk and jog through it to either get to downtown or the riverwalk. It isn't a destination for anyone, just a passageway.

I have always loved Noguchi's work and when the fountain is functional it is spectacular. I wonder though if there isn't a way to honor the design while also improving it for the current needs of the city. Hart Plaza should be a destination for people when visiting the city and right now it isn't. I am afraid that even if the city repairs the space it will remain underutilized.

Thanks to everyone for their insights and thoughts. This is a
somewhat older Detroit Yes thread about Hart Plaza.

https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...rt-Plaza/page2

I like the Noguchi Fountain, whether it is working or not,
but then again have not spent any time in Hart Plaza
in the last decade. The Noguchi Fountain should be
working in the summer months. If it is too complex
or easily vandalized a retrofit should keep the Fountain
but work around those problems. So the visual is a
Plexiglas barrier all around the original fountain with
a foot splash ring around that.

The fountain is the key to summertime usage outside of regular events. Just look how many families you see down where the GM fountains shoot water out of the ground. It's an attraction that keeps kids entertained for hours. Add some tables with shade, a few food trucks, improved green sapce, concerts on the weekends, and you would have a constantly used space in the summer.

The Auditorium site also needs to play a part. My vote would be for a low-mid rise residential structure with the bottom floors left open for some kind of attraction/commercial space. Saving this space for some grandiose project like the aquarium will only ensure it stays a dirt lot until we're all long gone...

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Originally Posted by 401don

The city really needs to decide what they want Hart Plaza to be. As a festival site, with large crowds moving about it's current design is fine. As an everyday park, where people would spend leisure time, they need benches, tables, pathways, a lot less concrete, etc. Can you design a park that meets both needs? I'm not certain.

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I think it can be both. Here's how:

- Expand the park into the auditorium site, which would be a large open lawn with trees and winding paths. This would sit atop a parking/retail podium that would span the uncovered bit of Atwater, and connect with the existing "underground" structure"
- The entire "lower" section below Atwater [[minus the Ziggurat) would be made into a lawn, level with the riverwalk and including the existing parking lot. Stairs/ramps would connect with the "upper" park.
- Add permanent revenue generating cafes and kiosks that could enhance a year-round program.

The existing "plaza" sections could remain, and large scale festivals can continue, but it would also provide all new green spaces for everyday use and opportunities for added revenue via new retail and event programing.

Restore Hart Plaza to its original design, please.
Adequately Maintain It.
Develop much better programming.
And eliminate some of the pedestrian barriers that surround it on all sides.

Its problems have little to do with its design and everything about the physical, political, and social context that surrounds it.

Here's yet another thread about this, where I outlined my reasons why.

hopefully something can be done by next year when the virus is [[hopefully?) marginalized.

People forget there was a very popular skating rink on the lower lever, where they put the main concert stage.

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Originally Posted by GPCharles

People forget there was a very popular skating rink on the lower lever, where they put the main concert stage.

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Was it really popular? I never saw more than 1 or 2 people on it. It was really small.

The problem with Hart Plaza is Campus Martius Park and the repurposing of Cadillac Square to a park. Once CMP/CSP was created, you then eliminated the reason to go to Hart Plaza. Further insult to injury was adding Spirit Plaza to the mix. Now, no one has a reason to cross Woodward [[which was deemed to dangerous to cross and that's why Spirit Plaza was created, right?).

One viable solution might be to build a hotel on the Ford Auditorium site. Guests from the hotel might be the folks you need to give Hart Plaza some life, especially if, as someone suggested earlier, you add some picnic tables and some programming. Add more grassy lawn areas too and you might create more traffic. Other than that or a total redo, I don't see a whole lot of other options. Now, if they do a total redo, then I would definitely want the fountain and monuments to remain.

BTW, I had heard that where the police station is located at Hart Plaza, that it was set up to be a restaurant there too. I definitely remember the other restaurant that was underground and next to the amphitheater.

I agree it's a big opportunity where Ford Auditorium was located to bring vitality, without damage.
Alone not be a solution-- but much better than a hotel and especially parking and more offices.

Residences and locals >> white collar transients, commuters, and "amenities" that cater to them.

Campus Martius gets crowded during good weather esp/and good programming.
Hart Plaza [[really a park) has way better natural amenities.
Cadillac Square is the most expendable.

They can coexist;
A short walk to each other and everything else.

If we remove the pedestrian barriers.

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Originally Posted by bust

I agree they can help bring much needed vitality where Ford Auditorium was located, and without damage to the park. But that alone would not be a solution, and I'd much rather residences and locals than transients from a hotel and the kinds of services that appeal to them.

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I'm sure things will pick up once all those cruise ships start docking at the Port Authority terminal. That was some damn fine pork.:)

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Originally Posted by 401don

I'm sure things will pick up once all those cruise ships start docking at the Port Authority terminal. That was some damn fine pork.:)

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uk-fay cruise ips-shay.

Example:
Except for double-entendres on contractor trucks and folks who live there year round, Nassau has become the worst of the Bahamas to visit-- I can think of only one exception. Because of cruise ships.
If Nassau gets it bad imagine the dregs who'll disembark from the Princess Cadillac [[lawsuit pending) for a few hours smoking up playing penny slots in a Detroit casino.

BTW, How is the water even deep enough?
Whatever boat could navigate those waters I'd never step on during high winds, as if I would anyway.

^^ Just an FYI... ocean going cruise ships could never course the Great Lakes... The Welland Canal in Canada cannot hold ships more than 740 ft. long [[yes 1000 footer ore carriers are locked into the 4 upper Great Lakes). So the only cruise ships on the Great Lakes are smaller ones.

But there is a great lakes cruise ship planned that will sail the arctic oceans as well. And it will dock in Detroit.

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Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

But there is a great lakes cruise ship planned that will sail the arctic oceans as well. And it will dock in Detroit.

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For schmucks.
Hurrah souvenir shops
Titty bars [[family friendly)
And penny slots.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

^^ Just an FYI... ocean going cruise ships could never course the Great Lakes... The Welland Canal in Canada cannot hold ships more than 740 ft. long [[yes 1000 footer ore carriers are locked into the 4 upper Great Lakes). So the only cruise ships on the Great Lakes are smaller ones.

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Yeah Lake St. Clair is even shallower than Lake Erie.
How often would they have to dredge, at what [[not just financial) costs?

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Originally Posted by bust

Yeah Lake St. Clair is even shallower than Lake Erie.
How often would they have to dredge, at what [[not just financial) costs?

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What are you talking about? Massive freighter ships already cross lake Saint Clair so I'm pretty sure it's already dredged enough for a small cruise ships. Which again is already planned to happen in 2022.

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Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

What are you talking about? Massive freighter ships already cross lake Saint Clair so I'm pretty sure it's already dredged enough for a small cruise ships. Which again is already planned to happen in 2022.

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You're right. But they follow a dredged shipping channel and pass Belle Isle on the other side. So probably not that middle part. Freighters don't dock at Hart Plaza so the river isn't dredged there.

I wonder how deep the river is off Hart Plaza. And how much harder it would be and what complications it would present to dredge a relatively swift river so close to shore.

Besides, my concern was for the boat's safety during high winds: "Whatever boat could navigate those waters I'd never step on during high winds".

I don't know the design of the cruise ships they're planning, but if their draft is shallow enough to dock at Hart Plaza it would seem they couldn't be very tall. They won't be carrying ore, or ballast. Tall would be susceptible to high winds. Short would be susceptible to high waves. It happens. Already in the Great Lakes it does. They'll go up the North Atlantic to the Arctic Ocean too??

In any case I'm glad the cruise ships will be small. I hope also infrequent. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure they will.

The river is 20 foot deep at shore in front of the marine terminal. It's 36 feet in the center of the river. There is a sandbar in front of TCF center wit h a depth of 14 feet.

14848_BookletChart.pdf [[noaa.gov)

Lake St Clair shipping channel is the whitish line; it's dredged to over 50' deep. The channel starts on the Canadian side of Belle Isle
http://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts....4900/-82.6550
https://www.gpsnauticalcharts.com/st...4850_P1257.jpg

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Originally Posted by ndavies

The river is 20 foot deep at shore in front of the marine terminal. It's 36 feet in the center of the river. There is a sandbar in front of TCF center wit h a depth of 14 feet.

14848_BookletChart.pdf [[noaa.gov)

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Ah, the infamous Chicken Bone Reef!

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Originally Posted by jcole

Lake St Clair shipping channel is the whitish line; it's dredged to over 50' deep. The channel starts on the Canadian side of Belle Isle
http://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts....4900/-82.6550

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The St. Clair channel is only dredged to a depth of 27.5 feet, not 50.

You're right, I was looking at the lighthouse height printed on a map.

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Originally Posted by ndavies

The St. Clair channel is only dredged to a depth of 27.5 feet, not 50.

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