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Two buildings next to the Fillmore are slated to be demolished.
Attachment 34083
https://www.facebook.com/BuildingHug...41571362521421
https://www.facebook.com/BuildingHug...42079675803923
"The argument for demolition, from what we can gather, is that the Little Ceasar's HQ is blocking the Filmore's existing loading access."
I learned of this at the Preservation Detroit Downtown Historic Theatre Tours this past Saturday. I was guide at the Fillmore, and a Fillmore employee talked about it.
Yes Chuck Forbes owns these buildings, and although I don't know all the specifics, if anyone can make a go of saving old buildings it's Chuck and [[his son) Jim Forbes. They were using these "hodgepodge of built-on buildings for storage space, and never really could figure out what to do with them. The Ilitch's new Little Caesars Building blocking of the other side of the Francis Palms Building/Filmore Theatre sort of sealed the fate of these buildings. I'm not sure if enough of the 1870 house is still there to make a restoration viable... it's not easy to tell.
Am I going to be sad to see these torn down... yes. Am I upset about it? No, not really. If the Forbes could have done something with them [[besides storage)... I imagine they would have done it by now.
...and Ilitch continues to decimate Detroit.
Ilitch doesn't own these buildings. You'd prefer to keep a vacant lot at the LCP headquarters location on Woodward?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1953
They're making a vacant lot. I would assume the poster wants to keep the existing buildings.Quote:
Originally Posted by drjeff
These buildings have some nice details, and could make a good restaurant space or something, but honestly, no huge loss. Still better than the upcoming nothingness, though.
Sucks to see two more buildings hit the dust. You are correct Bham, I don't want to see these torn down but I understand why. Once again though, it's because of Ilitch. They are also tearing down the 120-year old home near the arena soon as well. When will we stop letting one company control the history of Detroit?
If anyone didn't know, there's actually a house behind the structures that was then incorporated into the current structures we see today.
What would be neat [WARNING FAR-FETCHED IDEA ALERT] would be to have a "Old Detroit" village, somewhere close to downtown. Very little from the 1800s/early 1900s exists in Detroit today continually. It would be neat to move this structure and create such a small streetscape to get a feel of what the streets were like back then. Think the basement of the Historical Museum but outside. Or hell, move them to an empty lot in Bricktown. I could envision them as a coffeeshop or some other small shop but they need to be visible and not tucked away as they are.
Is the reason why these buildings are going is to create access from W. Elizabeth, instead of the alley on the other side [[north side of the Fillmore).
See Fillmore PDF for a nice map... [[page 10).
https://mavenprodcontent.blob.core.w...Packet_new.pdf
Yes, that is the presumed reason according to the links I originally posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
And this is why development is so difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
There is the old sayings, "behavior has consequences", "elections have consequences," etc.
Well, putting up a new building also has consequences.
I assume that is why cities, etc. have zoning boards. Put up a 1,000 or 2,000 seat church and create parking and traffic problems.
So in this case, the LC headquarters building resulted in the removal of the alley used by the Fillmore.
I assume all of this was discussed in the zoning process.
And in this case, it's the Ilitch's fault. But answer me this, if putting up a new building next to a theatre requires an alley for equipment trucks, why are there buildings butted up next to theatres in NYC without an alley? You rarely see empty plots of land in Manhattan.Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
The theater looks 'land locked.' The alley has been removed and the back of the theater does not back up to a street or alley, but backs up to these buildings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
So if it's landlocked, then why not bust through the Elizabeth side of the theatre? That's where they're going to put it if they demolish those buildings. Don't demolish and just put the entry way on the actual street side of the building instead of creating an alley?Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
Of course you don't. But then again Detroit has the highest per capita amount of urban developers/planners, building owners and politicians who don't know their ass from their elbow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
Beyond saddened to see this building go. It is definitely my favorite building in the city. The last I heard it was a recording studio. C'est la vie, another historic building knocked down. Such a common theme here.
Sad. I was always curious about that place with the ornate façade. Crazy there's a house buried in there too. The quality and details of these old buildings will never be replicated today and that's why it's sad when I go down!
The building was designed by Baxter, O'Dell & Halpin.
Shouldn't that question question be addressed to the owners of the Fillmore and those two buildings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
Glad to read these threads that people at least care. Maybe these don't seem significant buried in a downtown, but they mean something and represent a piece on the architectural continuum of Detroit history best left in place.
It could sting worse. Here in Chicago the boom cycle has been devastating on the city's older building stock. Just imagine if the Ransom-Gills house in Brush Park after being carefully restored was suddenly purchased next month, demolion permits applied for, and then it was totally leveled for maybe possibly, just potentially something better would come along...like some bland aluminum and glass clad 4 unit condo building.
Personally, I'd be outraged. But it seems most people don't care anymore.
Yeah...that's been the story in Chicago as thousands of historic structures restored in the past 10 years will face the wrecking ball. It's pains me to think this, but I believe with the exception of larger historic structures that provide some utility or are just too big to tear down, we are actually entering another cycle where preservation has fallen out of style. I really hope I'm wrong.
Here's what I know:
The State Theatre [[Palms, Fillmore) was designed with load-in/out to the alley.
For 25+ years, they've used the alley PLUS a large chunk of Ilitch-owned lot to stage equipment/trucks, etc.
Ilitch is building on this lot, so Fillmore can't use it anymore. Because it will finally have a building on it. Something desirable in cities.
Fillmore / Forbes would have to load-in using only the alley. That is possible, but is very hard.
[[In NYC, they load shows in through all kinds of miserable paths. Its obscenely expensive. But its NYC and show tickets are obscenely expensive, and the only load-in/out infrequently. So if they have to load via the lobby -- they do it and just pay the stagehands obscene money.)
Forbes is creating the necessary modern load-in/out for a modern theatre through his property in his best interest. If you want to see a decent load-in, go see either the Opera House, or the Fox backstage loading lot.
Ilitch is not the evil spectre here. 'He' is just using his property.
I'll bet this has all been peaceably worked out between Ilitch and Forbes. It makes no sense for Ilitch to give Forbes a large staging area in his new building. And Forbes wouldn't want to pay for it when he has a cheaper, easier way to create a good load in/out.
If anyone is destroying historic architecture here, its Forbes. Good bless Chuck.
And as Paul Harvey used to say, "now the rest of the story."
Very nicely explained. Sounds quirky to say it this way, but building the LC headquarters, disturbed the 'ecosystem' in those blocks. They [[Fillmore and Ilitches) had developed nice 'workarounds' which worked for the Fillmore and did not interfere with the undeveloped Ilitch lot.
Just an aside.... 2 small but historic buildings [[both more attractive than what's behind the Fillmore)... had to come down to build the Detroit Opera House stage expansion... and loading docks.
Sometimes choices have to be made that we are not very happy with... but in either case the end result is NOT a parking lot... :[[
Amen. Folks really need to realize that this isn't some distant suburb or ex-burb with nothing but undeveloped land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Some times real choices need to be made.
Some of these buildings have been there over 100 years and time moves on and things change.
In this case, Detroit will lose two small buildings and rids itself of a parking lot but instead gets an office building facing Woodward
Absolutely, but you're the one that continually defends Ilitch and tearing down buildings, so I figured why not address it to you first.Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
Figured it was best not to start a new thread, because this building butts up next to the two that want to be torn down. Ilitch has bought the Women's City Club Building. I hope and pray he does not tear this beauty down, but I won't hold my breath.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...or-585-million
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I can't imagine they would tear it down. It's not dilapidated, the windows look brand new or at least from within this century. Madison-Lenox was boarded up, this looks move-in ready.
You can't imagine the Illitches tearing that down? Ha!Quote:
Originally Posted by dtowncitylover
I can see a gravel parking lot. If you own a nearby arena with basically 100% auto-based patronage, a lot makes more practical sense than any other use.
It sucks that when Olympia acquires a property that demolition comes to mind first as to what they are going to do with it under their watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
I thought the same thing, next come the excuses that the new LC building needs more parking. Then how lucky Detroit is to have this family make all this parking, followed by how 'entertaining' all the parking is on their side of town...
Are you suggesting Dr. DiChiera is really a relative of Mike Ilitch? He doesn't look Macedonian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Cast thee out, moderate. If you don't condemn Ilitch here, you might as well confess voting for Trump.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
But seriously, folks, this is true. In any city where there's been redevelopment, historic and heritage buildings get torn down. Sometimes, its really necessary. Should these two pleasant buildings be saved, if the cost might be making the Fillmore unable to compete for concerts?
The usual schedule for a Rock concert is an 8am load-in. Typically, two semi-trucks with hundreds of individual road cases are unloaded by a crew of about a dozen, fed into the theatre's stage and auditorium to a crew of another dozen or two stagehands. [[Sometimes there are more trucks. Four is not unusual.) This needs to be complete, typically by 1pm. Lunch follows. Then the afternoon is spent by the touring crews configuring all the mechanics, electronics, and musical equipment. Everything has to be ready before the audience arrives. Loading in through an alley is possible, but difficult. Plus you have 1-4 motor coaches that have to park nearby for crew to use throughout the day. And you don't want to send the semi-trucks away if you don't have too. Since you can't risk them getting stuck in ballpark traffic when you're ready to pack the show out, starting at 11 pm. Its shoved in the trucks in about an hour or two. And then the drivers rush to the next city. Could be Cleveland, or Chicago, or farther. And they have to be there at 8am to meet their next crew of stagehands.
A good loading lot is as essential to a theatre as bathrooms are to the customers. If the loading area sucks, tours may decline to play your theatre, and go to another theatre, or even another city.
If you think they can handle a little inconvenience to save these buildings, go down there and what an entire load-in and load-out and then let us know.
Actually I am pretty sure Madison-Lennox was an occupied building when Ilitch bought it. It at least had windows and was relatively secure from the elements. He then promptly removed the windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by dtowncitylover
That would be my guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by dtowncitylover
After all isn't this building in better shape than the four other renovations to be done in 2018?
I suspect the Ilitch org will own the building and someone else will do the rehab.
P.S. if the Ilitches would like to sell some of their undeveloped land across the street wouldn't having this building renovated make it [[sale of develop-able land) more likely.
P.S. [[2). Once all of the construction, rehabs, etc. are done I think it would be nice if the streets in the area were milled and paved. These are high traffic, high visibility streets and appearance matters.
No, I can imagine the Illitches tearing down buildings. But this building is in much better condition than the Madison Lenox or Wolverine Hotel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Wasn't the problem that Madison Lenox was vacant and near Ford Field and the city didn't want vacant structures near it for the Super Bowl?Quote:
Originally Posted by dtowncitylover
Ilitch began an illegal demolition of the structure which then forced the rest of the building to be torn down. He then promised that it would be redeveloped and not remain a parking lot...Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
Dismayed at the news about the Women's City Club Building.
I suggest this topic is important enough to deserve its own thread.
The Women's City Club building is listed on the National Register of Historic Places and is designated a Michigan State Historic Site. It may not call attention to itself these days but it is a notable example of early modernist / arts and crafts architecture. It was innovative when it was built in 1924. It was designed by William B. Stratton, the husband of Mary Chase Perry Stratton, a co-founder of Pewabic Pottery. It's decorated with countless Pewabic Pottery tiles inside and out.
It would be an utter shame to lose it.
This seems to be disputed in an USA Today article. So it seems to be he said [[historic preservationists) vs. she said [[city, Ilitches).Quote:
Originally Posted by southen
It seems the judge had to referee between the two sides.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trave...ic-hotel_x.htm
https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trav...it-hotel_x.htm
Back to the original topic, Gnome posted a nice photo of them in a previous thread:
The building on the left was quite nice too.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
Wesley Mouch, I remember you saying you lived around there back in the day. Any stories to tell?
The facade on the right is already destroyed. In order to renovate it you'd already have to replace most of the ornament and bricks, and whatever you didn't replace would still look rough. The facade on the left is in better shape, and it's restrained and handsome and timeless, but it's also very replaceable. Because it's all built into a house, the interior is probably in terrible shape and the floor plan is likely completely useless. And as far as the urban fabric goes, that's a pretty natural space to have an alley/gap, and if there had always been a gap there no one would have thought anything of it.
We'll have to wait until the Little Caesars HQ is done before we'll know how well it interfaces with the street at ground level, but urbanistically the massing is just what the area needs.
The tradeoff for this demolition is great, to me the choice is a no-brainer.
I encourage anyone interested in what happened to the Madison Lenox to read the very detailed account at historicdetroit.org:
Historic Detroit: Madison-Lenox Hotel
http://historicdetroit.org/building/...n-lenox-hotel/
If that account is correct Mike Ilitch displayed gross neglect for pure greed. Unfortunately for all of us, that seems perfectly in keeping with so much of his other behavior.
Must be nice to catch all the tax breaks and handouts to continue to buy properties.
There was an order to halt, they ignored it and did enough damage to force the demo to proceed. "She" also said that they would redevelop the site while "He" rightly predicted that the site would remain parking like every other building that the Ilitch family had demolished. Do you find it at all odd that the ML fits perfectly into their track record of demolishing perfectly good buildings for surface parking without any plans for development?Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
Odd that they would start remediation without pulling proper permits for the buildings on Cass as well, right?
Here's an article from Mlive with information on the proposed demolition.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home
The problem with headlines is that words are limited and they can be misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
In this case 'parking lot' is misleading. Maybe something like "loading dock" or "stage loading area".
Literally the first sentence says it will be torn down for loading access and a SMALL PARKING LOT. So no, the headline is not misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
"Once razed, Forbes aims to pave the parcel into a parking lot and erect an 8-foot fence around the perimeter."
But the impetus for the demolition is loading access. I think the parking there will be parking for vehicles associated with the shows being put on, not a general purpose parking lot. At least that's what I'd imagine. It looks like it's big enough for a few trucks/buses to back in, but it's not big enough for a real parking lot.
Also I didn't realize that the facade on the right has already been replaced.
I love architecture and I think preservation is important, but this is the dumbest preservation battle ever.
I completely agree. I think the Ilitches bought it because they WANT it rehabbed and put back in service.Quote:
Originally Posted by dtowncitylover
It is a beautiful building and occupied would bring some more life to that area.
I agree Jason.
Also of all people... 90 year old Chuck Forbes and his son Jim, who now runs the family business, are the least likely people you would ever want to do battle against, preservation wise.
They are responsible for saving more building on the endangered north end of downtown, than anyone else... by far!
Live Nation, who runs the Fillmore [[their theatre brand name) has treated the former State Theatre with a lot of TLC.... and is continuing to improve the theatre [[which they don't even own). Having them pull out of their lease because stage shows bypass the Fillmore due to staging difficulties is not worth it.
These 2 buildings have been bastardized so much over the years... it seems doubtful that what is underneath the facades may be worth keeping.
I don't think it isn't a parking lot the way folks here define a parking lot any more than the area behind your favorite grocery [[delivery area) is what I'd call a parking lotQuote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
The problem here is taxonomy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zads07
When you go to do an improvement, the city expects -- well requires you to define your use, and then design it to those requirements.
Forbes / Live Nation will likely be parking trucks and cars in the lot, in addition to loading. So they apply for a parking lot. Nobody knows what a 'stage loading lot' is. So the media uses the simple term.
I would expect that Forbes will apply for a parking operators license for the lot, so they can park cars and charge legally. I'm sure there will be days when that's appropriate. But since the impetus here was their loss of the loading area, I am willing to take Chuck and Jim at their word -- and believe that the media is unintentionally misleading in their description. They probably have no idea what a show load-in/out looks like.
Yes, this thread is getting to be a head scratcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
The Forbes want to tear down two buildings so that the operators of the Fillmore can use that area as a loading dock for that venue.
The real question should be how the FORBES will aesthetically treat that area.
Then somehow it gets morphed into a discussion of parking lots and Ilitches...
P.S. I once spoke with a local [[Washington) reporter about the headline for a story he wrote. He said that editors, not the reporter, write the headline.
And yes headlines often don't have the clarity of the first paragraph of an article because they are a limited number of words, not sentences.
I also work in journalism and I write my own headlines and sometimes my editor does it for me. This is getting to be quite ridiculous. It's a parking lot/loading area, simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by emu steve
As of today, they have been demolished.
https://www.facebook.com/jim.diamond...55831965138083
Attachment 34169
Don't people move buildings anymore? At least preserve the brick and exterior architectural details for reuse! Nobody makes that stuff anymore! Dumb!
Kathy.... Chuck Forbes is the king of moving buildings... but those buildings are such a ramshackle hodgepodge of buildings... he really didn't have an easy way to move either of them... at least with the Gem/Century and Elwood, the moving folks could get all the way around the buildings to move them. These 2 buildings were pinned in on 3 sides by other buildings, and moving them was not practical... and also just how do you move just the oldest part of a building? If there were a way to do it that made sense... I'm sure Chuck would have figured it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathy2trips
So says Gistok the expert building mover. Making all assumptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
So was was so important to demo these two little buildings?
What possibly will such a big difference in that small pocket?
Another piece of Detroit's history sadly gone, and for what?
A loading dock! So exciting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitdave
Can one of you armchair preservationists please tell me how you would go about moving these buildings from out between the Fillmore Theatre and the Women's City Club Building?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pa...!4d-83.0345679
Maybe a giant spatula would have done the trick, huh? There was little chance to get around to the sides of this hodgepodge of buildings to put rollers underneath it to do a months long move. And is Elisabeth St. even wide enough or the roadway firm enough to handle moving the enormous weight of these buildings on rollers? And just how do you remove these buildings when there is no easement to the neighboring buildings.... do they just scrape the sides of the Women's City Club and the Fillmore Auditorium as they are getting them out of that very tight space?
Chuck Forbes knows more about moving buildings than ANYONE. Do you think he tore these buildings down just for the fun of it?
LiveNations, who has the lease on the Forbes owned Fillmore Theatre has encountered serious issues with loading and unloading traveling shows since the Little Caesar HQ started construction next door. So yeah... a loading dock sucks as a use for demolishing these buildings. But when there is no alternative for keeping a working [[and now closed for restoration) historic theatre as a working entity... then sometimes decisions have to be made that affect the city's historic fabric.
Now if one of you had a workaround to this... please let everyone know... :eek:
We're all ears... :confused:
My great grand parents, the Faltis family built this building. They lived in the apartment on the 2nd floor. My grandfather leo McInerney married edna faltis and later baught the building and started McInerneys poultry. Also started a gift basket business. Later in the 50ties moved the pultry business to east elizabeth. I worked on the building for many years. Had a lot of great memories of down town. So sad to see a real piece of Detroit history torn down.
Thanks for providing this history. It definitely was a cute, neat building.Quote:
Originally Posted by elizabethhistory1750