Why now? Olympia Parking Now Asphalts Gravel Surface Parking Lots Behind the Fox

I know they are doing this now that Little Caesars Arena is on the horizon. However, they have owned these lots for years and Tigers' fans have been using these lots. Are hockey fans more prissy than baseball fans? Did the City of Detroit require that these lots be paved? Now, it's nice that they are being paved. However, paved means long-term. It would have been nice if they could have constructed a nice parking deck and freed up the remaining lots for residential/commercial development. That's what Dan Gilbert would have done:D.

Probably so the money spent can be used as part of the spinoff development dollars they are contractually obligated to have happen.

This is that promised "huge spinoff development" resulting from a half-billion in taxpayer funding for our relocated hockey barn. The arena will be a huge boon for parking lot operators.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gumby

Probably so the money spent can be used as part of the spinoff development dollars they are contractually obligated to have happen.

---

Guys, I think they will be 'over the finish line' as soon as everything which is started is finished.

As for 'why now'? I have no idea.

Maybe a 'parking lot' expert can explain if there are weather considerations, i.e., if they will be utilized more in winter [[think Red Wings, Pistons, etc. at LCA) that asphalt is preferable to dirt.

Is it easier to keep the lots clear for heavy usage?

How much usage did those lots get during winter [[i.e., when the Tigers were not playing ball)?

Perhaps they need more parking once they move their Little Caesars HQ to downtown?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 48307

Perhaps they need more parking once they move their Little Caesars HQ to downtown?

---

I forget: How many additional workers will be working there?

So basically, dedicated [[de facto or de jure) parking for additional LC workers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

This is that promised "huge spinoff development" resulting from a half-billion in taxpayer funding for our relocated hockey barn. The arena will be a huge boon for parking lot operators.

---

. I'd agree. They'll do things like pave lots and then all of the "development" funds will gone and they'll have to tear the Eddystone down. But there will be some big beautiful lots .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

. But there will be some big beautiful lots

---

They'll be the biggest, most beautiful lots, believe me. And Mexico will pay for it.

By asphalting them the lots will be perceived as permanent. Nobody will question why they haven't done shit with their 'parking' since it is permanent.

A few inches of ashpalt better helps hide the fact that they were complicit in destroying any hope of that are being revived so they will get a pass for their scumbaggery

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by royce

I know they are doing this now that Little Caesars Arena is on the horizon. However, they have owned these lots for years and Tigers' fans have been using these lots. Are hockey fans more prissy than baseball fans? Did the City of Detroit require that these lots be paved? Now, it's nice that they are being paved. However, paved means long-term. It would have been nice if they could have constructed a nice parking deck and freed up the remaining lots for residential/commercial development. That's what Dan Gilbert would have done:D.

---

As EMU Steve mentioned there's likely a simple, non-political reason. When the Tigers fans need the lots it's in Spring, Summer and Fall. During the Red Wings and Pistons seasons they have to contend with the snow removal. I did quite a bit of commercial snow removal when I was younger, and plowing a large gravel lot is an absolute nightmare. Loose gravel moves just as easily as the snow, so the lot gets torn up and you end up with huge mounds of gravel when the snow melts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

They'll be the biggest, most beautiful lots, believe me. And Mexico will pay for it.

---

Haha. I see what you did there. Nice.

imo they wanted it to be a bombed out wasteland when they were acquiring properties at both arena sites. And then once the arena was finalized they waited a few years so that the parking lots would be fresh when the new arena opened.

And I agree with the idea that this will end up being counted towards their required development spending.

I think this has something to do with it: $750/mo per impervious acre

http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...2011232016.pdf

I'm pretty sure the asphalt that is going down is rated "permiable" to grant them some exemption.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brandomundo

I'm pretty sure the asphalt that is going down is rated "permiable" to grant them some exemption.

---

Asphalt would not be consider permeable. In fact, it less permeable than gravel.

Sorry I was referring to this

https://www.wolfpaving.com/blog/bid/...ental-Benefits

Porous asphalt is actually more permeable than compacted gravel over compacted clay/silt. These systems basically have an engineered gravel reservoir a couple feet thick underneath the asphalt that captures rain water and releases it over time. The asphalt is paved with air gaps through it to allow water through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

As EMU Steve mentioned there's likely a simple, non-political reason. When the Tigers fans need the lots it's in Spring, Summer and Fall. During the Red Wings and Pistons seasons they have to contend with the snow removal. I did quite a bit of commercial snow removal when I was younger, and plowing a large gravel lot is an absolute nightmare. Loose gravel moves just as easily as the snow, so the lot gets torn up and you end up with huge mounds of gravel when the snow melts.

---

Thanks, so we have TWO logical reasons why asphalt lots are desirable:

1). Maybe the lots will be used by additional Little Caesars employees [[and yes during winter, asphalt is better than gravel.)

2). If #1 is not true, then almost certainly those lots will be in demand for LCA events during the winter. The lot will need to be plowed and therefore, asphalt is the desired surface.

Both 1 & 2). For those who wish to think the Ilitches are getting rich: The lots will be used by employees during the day and LCA customers at night/weekends... :)

They're in for a disappointment. The lots will be empty because all the fans will take the Q-line in.

Right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jason

imo they wanted it to be a bombed out wasteland when they were acquiring properties at both arena sites. And then once the arena was finalized they waited a few years so that the parking lots would be fresh when the new arena opened.

And I agree with the idea that this will end up being counted towards their required development spending.

---

1. Paving some parking lots wouldn't put a dent in the required development spending.

2. There are plenty of "they" in Detroit that wanted it [[and the whole city) to be a bombed out wasteland -- including political, criminal, religious, elite, and business interests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brandomundo

Sorry I was referring to this

https://www.wolfpaving.com/blog/bid/...ental-Benefits

Porous asphalt is actually more permeable than compacted gravel over compacted clay/silt. These systems basically have an engineered gravel reservoir a couple feet thick underneath the asphalt that captures rain water and releases it over time. The asphalt is paved with air gaps through it to allow water through.

---

Thanks for the information!

I would still be very surprised if the city would consider any form of paving as permeable. Perhaps they would some consideration to more advanced materials.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by royce

I know they are doing this now that Little Caesars Arena is on the horizon. However, they have owned these lots for years and Tigers' fans have been using these lots. Are hockey fans more prissy than baseball fans? Did the City of Detroit require that these lots be paved? Now, it's nice that they are being paved. However, paved means long-term. It would have been nice if they could have constructed a nice parking deck and freed up the remaining lots for residential/commercial development. That's what Dan Gilbert would have done:D.

---

You asked a lot of questions, but I have one you didn't ask [[or assumed):

1). How many lot are we speaking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emu steve

You asked a lot of questions, but I have one you didn't ask [[or assumed):

1). How many lot are we speaking?

---

I work over in Grand Circus Park and they've been working on probably 5-6 lots since early Spring, which included digging up the old foundations of the demolished buildings and then laying down drainage systems, curbs, asphalt, emergency phone stations, fencing, shrubs and trees. The largest ones being the two surface lots between Adams and Columbia facing Grand River. They just started working on one more this week on Elizabeth. So my guess would be about a total of 6 or so when they're all done. For surface lots, they look a lot better then they were, but they're still surface parking lots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UofMGuy423

I work over in Grand Circus Park and they've been working on probably 5-6 lots since early Spring, which included digging up the old foundations of the demolished buildings and then laying down drainage systems, curbs, asphalt, emergency phone stations, fencing, shrubs and trees. The largest ones being the two surface lots between Adams and Columbia facing Grand River. They just started working on one more this week on Elizabeth. So my guess would be about a total of 6 or so when they're all done. For surface lots, they look a lot better then they were, but they're still surface parking lots.

---

Excellent info.

My guess is that they feel the need to increase the supply of 'decent quality' [[even if it is surface) parking in the area.

There will be many times say like "April in the D" when the Wings or Pistons .and. Tigers are playing the same day.

Won't there possibly be concerts at LCA the same evening as a Tigers game at Comerica? [[I have no idea if we'll see it THIS September as concerts are already scheduled for LCA).

Or a Lions game opposite something at LCA [[e.g., Wings, Pistons or other entertainment). That could total 85K attendees combined at both venues.

With LCA likely to do 150 - 175 events per year, there will be a lot of event 'doubleheaders' between LCA and either Comerica or Ford Field.

And I assume if we are talking of a LCA event [[with no other event at Comerica or Ford Field) that many drivers would park in these lots and cross the Fisher at either Clifford or Woodward rather than park east of Woodward.

The mental gymnastics you do to justify every action from that family never ceases to astonish me.

The significant parts of this area has been parking since the 1920's...when the big theatres were built on Woodward and Bagley/Grand Circus Park. Downtown had few parking lots in the core central business district area and the area between Park and Grand River was no longer desirable as a residential area. Some structures remained but parking predominated and likely will stay that way for the foreseeable future unless/until high rise development moves in and builds with parking structures as part of any development.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by southen

The mental gymnastics you do to justify every action from that family never ceases to astonish me.

---

I have no dog in this fight nor ax to grind.

If someone rehabs a building I say, "Good."

If someone improves even surface parking I say, "Good."

We all know that not everyone would grow up to be a rocket scientist, and as DetroitBob points out not every parcel will grow up to be a 20 story class A office building or residential.

This is the same as the DTE land that they 'improved' on by making it a park.

Just play the hand one was dealt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emu steve

Guys, I think they will be 'over the finish line' as soon as everything which is started is finished.

As for 'why now'? I have no idea.

Maybe a 'parking lot' expert can explain if there are weather considerations, i.e., if they will be utilized more in winter [[think Red Wings, Pistons, etc. at LCA) that asphalt is preferable to dirt.

Is it easier to keep the lots clear for heavy usage?

How much usage did those lots get during winter [[i.e., when the Tigers were not playing ball)?

---

Huh? "Over the finish line"? After years of being the largest proponent of the Ilitch family and the LCA on this forum and everything it and they would do for Detroit in the future you are declaring them finished? All the promises have been fulfilled?

Thanks for the heads up there Steve because it is bit hard to notice when one is actually walking around downtown and one crosses into Ilitchlands vast emptiness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Huh? "Over the finish line"? After years of being the largest proponent of the Ilitch family and the LCA on this forum and everything it and they would do for Detroit in the future you are declaring them finished? All the promises have been fulfilled?

Thanks for the heads up there Steve because it is bit hard to notice when one is actually walking around downtown and one crosses into Ilitchlands vast emptiness.

---

My, my, my...

The quote is completely out of context.

The quote was 'over the finish line' AS FAR AS meeting their obligations as to what they were obligated to spend within District Detroit.

My point was as soon as LCA, the garages, LCA headquarters, residences, Ilitch School of Business, hotel, etc. are finished, the amount expendited would meet their requirement.

Any monies spent on parking lots is chump change and would not be needed to meet the requirements.

As other posters suggested Ilitch organization needs these lots to be available 12 months a year for employees, patrons of LCA, etc. and the only sensible way of doing it would be use asaphalt so that snow removal is feasible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Huh? "Over the finish line"? After years of being the largest proponent of the Ilitch family and the LCA on this forum and everything it and they would do for Detroit in the future you are declaring them finished? All the promises have been fulfilled?

Thanks for the heads up there Steve because it is bit hard to notice when one is actually walking around downtown and one crosses into Ilitchlands vast emptiness.

---

He means the $200 million in spin-off development "finish line" that was required for them to get public financing. They got over this mark with a $25 million parking garage, the Little Caesars headquarters that supposedly costs $150 million, and the money for the business school.

They did announce from the beginning that the plan for the "Columbia Park" neighborhood was to build landscaped parking lots that would be developed in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emu steve

As other posters suggested Ilitch organization needs these lots to be available 12 months a year for employees, patrons of LCA, etc. and the only sensible way of doing it would be use asaphalt so that snow removal is feasible.

---

Not to mention that by paving them, you can also stripe them which greatly increases the parking capacity over what you get with unstriped gravel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emu steve

My, my, my...

The quote is completely out of context.

The quote was 'over the finish line' AS FAR AS meeting their obligations as to what they were obligated to spend within District Detroit.

My point was as soon as LCA, the garages, LCA headquarters, residences, Ilitch School of Business, hotel, etc. are finished, the amount expendited would meet their requirement.

Any monies spent on parking lots is chump change and would not be needed to meet the requirements.

As other posters suggested Ilitch organization needs these lots to be available 12 months a year for employees, patrons of LCA, etc. and the only sensible way of doing it would be use asaphalt so that snow removal is feasible.

---

No Steve, it is not out of context. Here again, you are pushing the same line about devolopments that don't exist in reality or even in a construction phase.

What "residences"? Where are they? Where's the construction for them? Who's leasing or selling them?

Again, what hotel? Where is the hotel construction? Who are they doing it with?

Do you know the difference between 'could' and 'renderings' and existing in the real world in a physical form?

The only difference here is NOW, in this thread about their parking lots, you're counting paving asphalt and parking decks as part of putting them "over the finish line" for "meeting their obligations".

This really sucks, Steve. Their largest loudest proudest backer, YOU have lowered the bar considerably by counting asphalt and fences in "what they where obligated to spend within District Detroit" It is NOT a good omen for those of us hoping that this time it would be different.

Completely false:

"This really sucks, Steve. Their largest loudest proudest backer, YOU have lowered the bar considerably by counting asphalt and fences in "what they where obligated to spend within District Detroit" It is NOT a good omen for those of us hoping that this time it would be different."

As I understand it, from what I've read and seen on the Fox Sports Detroit special, the work to get LCA finish on time is a real challenge.

No way would a rational person encourage the Ilitch operation to start more projects until LCA is essentially 99% complete.

I think you are being completely disengenous. I would think that 2018 will prove you to be a 'false prophet.'

The Ilitich have YEARS to see that all of the agreed upon spending occurs. We have posters who have indicated that the Ilitches have a time frame to get their projects done. Some will be done in 2018.

This asphalt parking lot work is CHUMP CHANGE. Out of spending which could total 1.2B in a few years we are talking about what five or ten million?

This whole thread has turned into another nothing burger.

Getting back to parking capacity...

Lest my search was wrong, starting Sept 16, we will see the first of a number of entertainment 'doubleheaders' in the Comerica/LCA venues. Kid Rock and Tigers the evening of 9/16/

Sept. 24 Lions and Tigers both at 1:00 p.m. That could be as many as 100K fans in the same area at the same time...

Time to get those parking lots finished. LCA opens in what 4 months.

My biggest beef with these fenced in parking lots is the local bars in the area were allowed to use them for parking years back on none game nights now they are fenced and locked up and empty and no where to park on the streets on some none game nights

Those parking lots are a mystery to me. They have been working on them for months and are still a long way from completing all of the,.

They have to be spending many millions on those things. They're excavating down 2 feet or more and then putting in engineered fill prior to paving. They're installing drainage and electricity for lighting. They're installing automated ticket spitters on some and guard shacks on others. They're fencing some of them. They're tearing up the streets and sidewalks in some areas, apparently for connections to storm drains and electric lines.

The construction has been dragging on interminably. I worked on building parking lots in college [[a long time ago) and those things should have been completely constructed many weeks ago; the works gets done sporadically, as if the owner runs out of money has to come up with more before construction starts again.

Those lots are intended to be permanent, for sure. Bye bye future development of that area.

Finally, the big winner in the area is Harry's Bar, on the NE corner of Clifford and the I-75 service drive. It's a great sports bar with wall-to-wall large flat screen TVs. It's entirely surrounded by the new stadium and parking decks, 200 feet from the entrance to the new arena. The food is way above average; in fact it's excellent, and reasonably priced. The brother and sister owners are hands on. They have lots of parking and own a large lot across Clifford from the bar to handle the overflow on game days. They have always been busy but the place is now a much bigger gold mine. Kudos.

Yeah, all the fans that live on or near Woodward from Grand Blvd to the Caesar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lowell

They're in for a disappointment. The lots will be empty because all the fans will take the Q-line in.

Right?

---

Has anyone read how the District website describes this area? In case you haven't here it is:

"Perfectly positioned in heart of the city, Columbia Park will be home to Detroit's newest urban green space. This neighborhood, once an important industrial center, will become a place to relax and refresh during a busy day, after work or on the weekend. New offices, retail specialty shops and loft-style condos will surround this tree-shaded respite. With the city's skyline as a backdrop, it will be easy to take advantage of the views while enjoying a meal at a terraced cafe. This area was filled with hotels before it became an important industrial center. Once again, people will be able to stroll through the manicured gardens, people-watch while lounging on the lawn, or give the pup some exercise at the dog run. Columbia Park will soon offer boundless opportunities to play, interact, relax and connect".

I'm sure we all remember when this area was an "important industrial center". We can really see and appreciate Olympias vision of making this "Detroit's urban green space". I mean, just look at all the wonderful grass and trees in this picture!Attachment 33323

I think the reasons for doing the parking lots now are several fold.

1- For many years, it was unclear whether the new arena was going behind the Fox or north of I-75. As the arena construction project is very complicated with lots of permits and other issues, really until all the permits were approved and ground broken for construction, there was no definite arena site.
And if you didn't know where the arena was going to go, it would be a waste [[from Olympias point of view) to spend money on the surface lots when the arena still might go behind the Fox. Yes, they finally "knew" last summer, but maybe there were other surface lot paving permits or other reasons that delayed them a year. But as mentioned, it wasn't until fall of 2015 that the Illitches knew for sure where the arena would get built, because that is when ground was broken.

2- There are some old, mostly unknown rules [[legal and zoning) about unpaved surface lots and lots not fenced in. I don't know them all, or am not 100% sure on the details of the rules, but suffice to say Olympia is now finally bringing their lots into compliance. Yes, they got away with it for years, but City government is finally becoming functional again, and they weren't going to continue to be able to get away with it.

3- As mentioned in earlier posts, unlike gravel lots, striped lots have a set capacity that is known. This makes it easier to sell online parking by passes and minimize staffing and dollar collection on site. Basically, it is more profitable because you don't have to rely on the lot attendants to be honest with the money they receive, and people like buying stuff online now anyway.

4- There are also the aesthetic and winter maintenance issues that come into play [[as mentioned in previous posts by others), since these lots will be in use year round.

the residential building near the large parking garage is under construction, but they haven't worked on it in months. They are really kicking ass on the parking garage across Henry from it, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 3WC

Those parking lots are a mystery to me. They have been working on them for months and are still a long way from completing all of the,.

They have to be spending many millions on those things. They're excavating down 2 feet or more and then putting in engineered fill prior to paving. They're installing drainage and electricity for lighting. They're installing automated ticket spitters on some and guard shacks on others. They're fencing some of them. They're tearing up the streets and sidewalks in some areas, apparently for connections to storm drains and electric lines.

The construction has been dragging on interminably. I worked on building parking lots in college [[a long time ago) and those things should have been completely constructed many weeks ago; the works gets done sporadically, as if the owner runs out of money has to come up with more before construction starts again.

Those lots are intended to be permanent, for sure. Bye bye future development of that area.

Finally, the big winner in the area is Harry's Bar, on the NE corner of Clifford and the I-75 service drive. It's a great sports bar with wall-to-wall large flat screen TVs. It's entirely surrounded by the new stadium and parking decks, 200 feet from the entrance to the new arena. The food is way above average; in fact it's excellent, and reasonably priced. The brother and sister owners are hands on. They have lots of parking and own a large lot across Clifford from the bar to handle the overflow on game days. They have always been busy but the place is now a much bigger gold mine. Kudos.

---

I disagree that the lots are permanent simply because they were paved. A single lot with a 100 spaces at $20 a spot at 100 events a year would bring in $200k a year in revenue. That more than pays for the one time investment in surfacing and fences. Once a development is ready, they'll tear it out and build something on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UofMGuy423

A single lot with a 100 spaces at $20 a spot at 100 events a year would bring in $200k a year in revenue. That more than pays for the one time investment...

---

Based on that, I disagree with your disagreement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UofMGuy423

I disagree that the lots are permanent simply because they were paved. A single lot with a 100 spaces at $20 a spot at 100 events a year would bring in $200k a year in revenue. That more than pays for the one time investment in surfacing and fences. Once a development is ready, they'll tear it out and build something on it.

---

I don't know about how good of an investment it is.

$200K / year doesn't sound like a 'cash cow' to me.

Or think of it this way: $200K x 5 lots = 1M / year which pays for one of the lowest paid Tigers for one season.

Or 1M = 20K seats @ $50 for one [[Tigers') game.

Doesn't sound the Ilitich organization is getting rich on those lots. $1M isn't much for a pro team enterprise.

It doesn't mean anything that they're paved besides looking nicer. It probably increases the chance of development, as the whole area looks better.