60 Story Building for Hudson Site? Gilbertville Rumblings Suggest Possibility

From Crains: "Dan Gilbert's team has two months to submit its development and financing plans to the Detroit Downtown Development Authority for its plan to build a new high-rise building on the former J.L. Hudson's department store site.

It's possible that building, which would sit on the vacant 2-acre site on Woodward, could come in at 60 stories, sources are telling me.

At that height, it would dwarf virtually everything surrounding it, including the nearby David Stott Building, which is 38 stories in Capitol Park at 1150 Griswold St.

The 60-story height is one of several possibilities being weighed by Gilbert's Rock Ventures LLC, I'm told. It's not known exactly how many designs are under consideration. Rock Senior Communications Manager Carolyn Artman said the company "doesn't comment on rumors and speculation."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...rning-20161101

I still prefer the glass blob, but wow.

Addendum: I now notice this story was spotted and added by 1953 to the Hudson site thread, but it is such a sensational story it deserves its own highlighting. I'll merge the two later.

I want to see a 90 story "Gilbert Tower". at the Old Hudson's Site.

Sounds like the entire underground parking garage will be torn out. 60 stories of a mixed use building will be hard to determine the height for. Parking and residential floors are usually about 10 ft./floor, while commercial space is closer to 15 ft./floor.

The 45 story former Comerica Tower is 620 ft. And the 73 story Marriott Renaissance Center is about 730 ft.

60 stories... Wow! [[a few 4 letter expletives came to mind first)

I spent a couple hours on all sides of the site today rethinking what could be done with it.
Some thoughts in no particular order:

Scrapping all of the existing foundation/garage and starting new is the way to go. An architect is really limited by what someone thought decades ago would be done on the site.

There really is a lot of space to utilize for parking. There are several options because of the surface area. Obviously below ground but after low level retail/restaurant space, you could stack it tall just in the center of the building or just on the library side. Personally I would go with the center option. The new hotel will have valets. Residents will not need to get vehicles out twice a day and be more willing to traverse many levels, For frequent vehicle users, it's a wrong choice on where to live.

The altitude. Skyline changing for sure thinking 60 but it is really a great location to do it. Vistas would be amazing in all directions. 45 stories clearing One Campus Martius. Wow! again. Clearly, a tower is involved but a rooftop green space/park would be really slick.

Square footage. The one thing that has been constant from the very beginning has been multi use. You would want all of these and a few more. Everything. Leave no stone unturned. Maybe some medical -- doctors, physical therapy etc.

Size of project. It would be gigantic by Detroit standards, but [[and a big one) the right guy to pull it off. Gilbert has already demonstrated a willingness to work with partners. A couple with deep pockets/excellent credit and a track record in developing large multi use projects would be the way to go on something this big. Previous experience would be a big help here. He is a master at developing contacts in big business and always has been nurturing them. This project would be a good time to cash those in.

It's exciting just to think about.

The sixtieth floor will be an excellent vantage from which to contemplate the myriad fields that once had two and three story buildings on them. God luv Detroit.

No. Not 60 stories. That's insane. It will stick out like a sore thumb and ruin Detroit's skyline. Imagine the RenCen hotel in that location. Something 30 or 40 stories should be considered, given the height of the Broderick, Stott, and 1001 Woodward. Remember: Dan Gilbert was supposed to build a stand alone HQ for Quicken Loans but decided to take up some floors in the Compuware Building. That was a smart move. Building a 60 story building in that location is not.

That would be awesome!

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Originally Posted by royce

No. Not 60 stories. That's insane. It will stick out like a sore thumb and ruin Detroit's skyline. Imagine the RenCen hotel in that location. Something 30 or 40 stories should be considered, given the height of the Broderick, Stott, and 1001 Woodward. Remember: Dan Gilbert was supposed to build a stand alone HQ for Quicken Loans but decided to take up some floors in the Compuware Building. That was a smart move. Building a 60 story building in that location is not.

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Royce, with the Renaissance Center already sticking out like a sore thumb for over 1/3 of a century, I think that a 60 story building would do nothing more than balance out the lopsided-ness that is downtown Detroit.

Since we have no clue to appearance, I Photoshopped what would be about 60 stories onto the Hudson's site, as seen from the water.... looks OK to me to help balancing out the lopsided Detroit skyline....

Lowell, I'm surprised you started a new thread on this, because the discussion was already ongoing on the thread about gilbert locking up the hudson's site.

1953

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Royce, with the Renaissance Center already sticking out like a sore thumb for over 1/3 of a century, I think that a 60 story building would do nothing more than balance out the lopsided-ness that is downtown Detroit.

Since we have no clue to appearance, I Photoshopped what would be about 60 stories onto the Hudson's site, as seen from the water.... looks OK to me to help balancing out the lopsided Detroit skyline....

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Couldn't agree more. The Detroit skyline is the Renaissance Center, anything that takes some of it back would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by 1953

Lowell, I'm surprised you started a new thread on this, because the discussion was already ongoing on the thread about gilbert locking up the hudson's site.

1953

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See the addendum on Lowell's 1st post.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Royce, with the Renaissance Center already sticking out like a sore thumb for over 1/3 of a century, I think that a 60 story building would do nothing more than balance out the lopsided-ness that is downtown Detroit.

Since we have no clue to appearance, I Photoshopped what would be about 60 stories onto the Hudson's site, as seen from the water.... looks OK to me to help balancing out the lopsided Detroit skyline....

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I agree. To me the Ren Cen is on an island and then there is everything else. There needs to be some infill visually between One Detroit Center and the Ren Cen. Hopefully with some projects coming online in the coming years, we might get that infill and even some mid rises east of the Ren Cen as well.

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Originally Posted by mikeg19

I agree. To me the Ren Cen is on an island and then there is everything else. There needs to be some infill visually between One Detroit Center and the Ren Cen. Hopefully with some projects coming online in the coming years, we might get that infill and even some mid rises east of the Ren Cen as well.

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I think with Hudson's and the Monroe Block you will get more balance as viewed from Canada, but I think the best thing that could happen are some mid-rises and high-rises popping up east of the Ren Cen. There was that rumbling last year about Gilbert teaming up with GM to develop that and I have seen some other hints from those working on the riverfront that some big things are coming, I am just wondering when we might see some announcements. If demand continues to be high the riverfront is perfect for some residential high-rises that could really change the look of the city.

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Originally Posted by royce

No. Not 60 stories. That's insane. It will stick out like a sore thumb and ruin Detroit's skyline. Imagine the RenCen hotel in that location. Something 30 or 40 stories should be considered, given the height of the Broderick, Stott, and 1001 Woodward. Remember: Dan Gilbert was supposed to build a stand alone HQ for Quicken Loans but decided to take up some floors in the Compuware Building. That was a smart move. Building a 60 story building in that location is not.

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I agree that 60 is too much, but I'd opt for about 50. Taller than the surrounding buildings but not so high as to loom above them all.

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Originally Posted by southen

I think with Hudson's and the Monroe Block you will get more balance as viewed from Canada, but I think the best thing that could happen are some mid-rises and high-rises popping up east of the Ren Cen. There was that rumbling last year about Gilbert teaming up with GM to develop that and I have seen some other hints from those working on the riverfront that some big things are coming, I am just wondering when we might see some announcements. If demand continues to be high the riverfront is perfect for some residential high-rises that could really change the look of the city.

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I think that the infill of those blocks, along with some other surface lots in the CBD will create that infill, but the three areas that will most affect the skyline are, as you mentioned, the parking lots directly east of the Ren Cen, the JLA site next to COBO, and the fail jail. Those two visually will alter the skyline more dramatically than a twinning of the old Ponch by COBO or some 12 story apartment buildings. JLA site once JLA is knocked down could be a major development, as it has the potential to fill in that area as well as connect to downtown. It should be a very interesting 5 years once some of these get moving and come to fruition.

I always thought the empty lot/former parking garage next to the National Theater would be a good spot for Gilbert to build something of this size. I'd rather see the Hudson's block densely filled with random 3-5 story buildings similar the opposite side of Woodward. However, it's not my money and as long as it looks better than the leaked rendering from last year, I'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by subsidized

I always thought the empty lot/former parking garage next to the National Theater would be a good spot for Gilbert to build something of this size. I'd rather see the Hudson's block densely filled with random 3-5 story buildings similar the opposite side of Woodward. However, it's not my money and as long as it looks better than the leaked rendering from last year, I'm all for it.

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What's most important is what happens at street level. If a 60 story building was built in the 70's/80's there's a good chance it would have a big concrete plaza and setback. I think most people, especially Gilbert, knows how important it is to maintain a street wall and activity at ground level.

The RenCen was built on the riverfront with its bulky height for there were plans to build moved skyscrapers of equal height along the riverfront

Any update on the Hudson's block? I thought a plan needed to be in place by the end of 2016 per the DDA development rules.

Could someone please provide info when the deadline was extended again, beyond 12/31/16 ?

Tomorrow morning 830 am announcement from Gilbert that will affect downtown Detroit. Mayor Dugan on hand too. I'm expecting a hudsons announcement

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Originally Posted by SpartanDawg

Tomorrow morning 830 am announcement from Gilbert that will affect downtown Detroit. Mayor Dugan on hand too. I'm expecting a hudsons announcement

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Damn, Atticus you really put the pressure on them! ;)

Update: Ok, so it looks like it's just going to be the Microsoft announcement. Sorry, but this doesn't really "affect" downtown. If Microsoft was moving from Seattle, yes, but moving regional offices, not so much...

That's where he drops the bombshell. Hudson's announcement along with Microsoft.

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Originally Posted by mikeg19

That's where he drops the bombshell. Hudson's announcement along with Microsoft.

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Here's to wishful thinking!

The other "big" announcement turned out to Shit Rock at the new arena. Whooptido!

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Here's to wishful thinking!

The other "big" announcement turned out to Shit Rock at the new arena. Whooptido!

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I always thought it was spelled 'whoop-de-doo'... You learn something new every day...

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Damn, Atticus you really put the pressure on them! ;)

Update: Ok, so it looks like it's just going to be the Microsoft announcement. Sorry, but this doesn't really "affect" downtown. If Microsoft was moving from Seattle, yes, but moving regional offices, not so much...

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Besides all of that, the news about the Microsoft move was leaked during the Auto Show. Hardly anything to do back flips over.

I wonder if any discussion had been had about completing the back of the One Campus Martius building. At this point it seems the building is busting at the seams. I know the building was built with the potential to fill in that wedge in the future. Losing the murals would be a small loss considering the visual appeal of a quality frantage facing the Hudson Block.

Maybe soccer related surprise? New team? New arena? Since that has been in the news.

The answer seems to lean toward Microsoft in this article.

Gilbert announcing new tenant move Friday — Microsoft?
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/mic...soft/395827207

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Originally Posted by ParisianLesion

I always thought it was spelled 'whoop-de-doo'... You learn something new every day...

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Not sure if sarcastic or serious. I was typing fast and didn't really care to look up correct spelling of a very colloquial term.

To be honest with everything that's gone right in the last couple of years and all the balls in the air it would be a let down to have a presser with the Mayor present over 50K sq ft of office that has already been leaking all month. I could be getting greedy but Gilbert himself has raised the bar. I hope for more, a major tenant for Book or Stott fast tracking one of those projects would be really sweet. I did notice guys working on the Stott swing stages a few weeks ago with lights at about 10pm on a Sunday night, thought those where aggressive working hours for January...

Honestly though, this Microsoft announcement is probably only the beginning of big things to look forward to over the next few years, provided the Auto Industry doesn't go off the rails [[always the wild card) because of Trump's erraticism.

Crap like this [[which contributed significantly to the last downturn because of the higher oil prices) is certainly not going to help...

US planning additional sanctions on Iran following missile test


http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/02/politi...tions-on-iran/

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Honestly though, this Microsoft announcement is probably only the beginning of big things to look forward to over the next few years, provided the Auto Industry doesn't go off the rails [[always the wild card) because of Trump's erraticism.

Crap like this [[which contributed significantly to the last downturn because of the higher oil prices) is certainly not going to help...

US planning additional sanctions on Iran following missile test


http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/02/politi...tions-on-iran/

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"As an industry we're excited about working together with the president and his administration on tax policies, on regulation and on trade to really create a renaissance in American manufacturing,"

Ford CEO Mark Fields

anyway....

Does anyone know when Gilbert has to provide his plans for the Hudsons site and begin work on it? Or is the time restriction no longer in place?

Until Gilbert receives his desired tax incentives from the state, no shovels will hit the ground. Pretty crazy to think, but he has owned development rights there since 2010.

Nothing new to report but I did stumble upon this image from December on the Shop Architects instagram account. The caption mentioned all of the models they have but it stood out to me that these were a bunch of different variations of the Hudson's block!

There isn't anything with a tower that is obvious, but the orange "pilon" you can see looks like it may be a tower attached to a smaller model which might indicate a tower.

Either way enjoy dissecting this shot. I know I have.

Attachment 32714

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Originally Posted by southen

Nothing new to report but I did stumble upon this image from December on the Shop Architects instagram account. The caption mentioned all of the models they have but it stood out to me that these were a bunch of different variations of the Hudson's block!

There isn't anything with a tower that is obvious, but the orange "pilon" you can see looks like it may be a tower attached to a smaller model which might indicate a tower.

Either way enjoy dissecting this shot. I know I have.

Attachment 32714

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The Orange magic marker? I hope it only represents it and not a model so there won't actually be a magic marker shaped tower :)

Lmao I thought it was some abstract tower or something. Time to get the eyes checked.

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Originally Posted by southen

Lmao I thought it was some abstract tower or something. Time to get the eyes checked.

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Going down to that tower would be the "highlight" of my day.

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Originally Posted by southen

Lmao I thought it was some abstract tower or something. Time to get the eyes checked.

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Southen,

I have good eyesight and I didn't pick up on it. I had already reproduced the angle of the shot in Google Earth to determine that the orange building wasn't even on the Hudson site.

Then I scrolled down and saw ABetterDetroit's post and face-palmed.

You were not the only one that was fooled.

If Frank Ghery can derive his forms from crumpled balls of paper, then why can't SHoP derive theirs from highlighters? :p

But yeah good find. I think that those models look pretty sensible, at least from what can be seen. I'd guess that the bottom half is offices and the top half, with the terraces and canyons and stuff would be residential. The model sitting outside of the site model, to the left of the compuware building is it, and then there's what seems to be a very similar or identical version inserted into the hudsons site to the right of the compuware building. And then there's a few more in the background that are too hard to see.

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Originally Posted by Jason

If Frank Ghery can derive his forms from crumpled balls of paper, then why can't SHoP derive theirs from highlighters? :p

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Kinda like the architect who thought up that tall slender condo tower in Manhatten was using a trash can as his architectural inspiration? Maybe it's just me, and I understand that architectural design is fluid and can be interpreted in a number of ways, but some of this new school stuff [[Gehry crap) just does nothing for me. I'm personally a fan of the roaring 20's and Art Deco masterpieces, so maybe I won't ever come around to some designs, but I can still appreciate beauty. Gehry and the like to me are garbage.

I'm with you, mikeg19; give me pre-war architecture anyday!

1953

the orange highlighter is next to David Stott tower. there is a lower rectangular piece directly left of one campus maritus. i can make out a series of 'cuts/voids' that crisscross the model in both horizontal and vertical planes. if difficult with the lighting, but there is a low rectangular model already sitting on hudson's site. looks like a removable piece that could fill hudson's site if sat parallel to woodward. with that style model its clear shop would mock up a number of massing models that would be interchangeable to critique against the larger urban context. no towers in site...though what they do show matches the existing street wall nicely.

I would love to see Dan Gilbert purchase Eastland Mall and put better stores there

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Originally Posted by stasu1213

I would love to see Dan Gilbert purchase Eastland Mall and put better stores there

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Who's going to shop at those better stores?

Grosse Pointers are scared shitless of Eastland while everyone else who lives near the mall is virtually flat broke.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Who's going to shop at those better stores?

Grosse Pointers are scared shitless of Eastland while everyone else who lives near the mall is virtually flat broke.

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I agree the future does not look bright at Eastland. And I get what you're saying. But not all Grosse Pointers are so scared [[and not everyone else is so bad off). My older Grosse Pointe parents still shop at Macy's, Target, and Lowe's every now and then. The other stores they liked have closed. They don't go to Eastland as often as they used to, but they'd go more if the shopping were better. It will be sad to lose it, but that particular Macy's has been sub par for a long while.

My hope is shopping will continue to improve on Kercheval and Mack in Grosse Pointe to help replace it. And on other nearby commercial corridors. And that retail downtown will achieve critical mass. It's clear Gilbert wants to get it there. His plans for the Hudson's site could be a big catalyst. My parents go downtown [[and midtown) a few times a month for cultural activities and would probably be happy to shop there too. I certainly would.

Integrated business districts are so much better than isolated shopping malls anyway. :)

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Who's going to shop at those better stores?

Grosse Pointers are scared shitless of Eastland while everyone else who lives near the mall is virtually flat broke.

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Wrong bongo. Many people in the area including from the Pointed shop at Macomb Mall which have stores that cater to the low to middle class shopper. Macomb Mall had been revitalized. Eastland could get stores the cater to the average shopper who still have money to shop at middle end stores. I could see Carharrt, Wilson's, Dunham and stores like those opening or reopening in the mall with more security including a Harper Woods Police mini station inside the mall. The Detroit connection to this thread is Eastland still borders Detroit but the troublemakers won't hang out there for the urbane type of stores that draw them would be gone.

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Originally Posted by stasu1213

I would love to see Dan Gilbert purchase Eastland Mall and put better stores there

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What does that have to do with this thread? Don't you think Dan Gilbert has his hands full with his downtown properties, the fail jail site, etc. I mean let's be realistic here. His focus is the city, not the suburbs.

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Originally Posted by Mind field

What does that have to do with this thread? Don't you think Dan Gilbert has his hands full with his downtown properties, the fail jail site, etc. I mean let's be realistic here. His focus is the city, not the suburbs.

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Maybe someone such as a Dan Gilbert could but the property and turn it back into an open air mall where the stores are not under one roof. Lowe's, Home Depot, Target, and Burlington could stay.

what's the next step in planning for this building?

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Originally Posted by Hypestyles

what's the next step in planning for this building?

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Another delay....:rolleyes: