Ilitch's Biggest Flops?

There's been so much angry chatter about Ilitch's LCD roof and dopey arena name that I feel one of my biggest and more relevant concerns has been lost in the shuffle - the family's lack of success beyond LC's and spending like drunken sailors on free agents. The fact they are going to have a whole neighborhood to brand when they've had so many flops concerns me quite a bit. Here's some of the ones at the top of my mind, please add to the list [[include nasty building deals, neglecting historic structures, etc too!).

Johnny Rockets spot - one of the best location in the city, rent-free, and they can't seem to even stumble into a winner. This is the worst crime of all in context of the question. If they can't make THIS work what makes them think they can handle multiple prime locations?

American Pizza Cafe - perhaps it was before it's time [[in the midwest) but still a flop

Second City - I actually took classes here and the staff and cast was wonderful but the rumor I heard is that this was just a vanity purchase and when the "franchise" license was up for renewal they just let it go. Now there is the often empty City Theater.

Comerica Park - Liquid fireworks?! In a cold midwest city?! The carousel and Ferris Wheel are silly but I can live with them... if the Ferris Wheel riders could actually SEE the game from the top. Knocking down buildings to improve the view of the city. Parking on Woodward? The stadium should butt up to the street, the placement of the parking lot is stupid. The scoreboard was misplaced. Left field walls were too far, players complained and they brought them in, putting the flagpole out of play - eliminating one of the only nods to historic Tiger stadium. If you think the CoPa is a nice modern stadium you need to see a game in another park. Also - worst concessions ever.

Tigers ownership up until 2006 - Dreadful. Even threw Alan Trammel under the bus to manage a shit team. Poor relations with many 1984 players, including Sparky. At least he knew enough to re-hire Ernie Harwell.

The handling of Tiger Stadium - no matter what fate you wanted for the stadium you must agree this was handled poorly [[at best). Sure, the city owned the property but Mike did not help at all.

Motor City Casino [[Marian) - Isn't that a temporary casino location? Weird. Pretty sure the famous Soup Kitchen and less famous but very cool Sardine Bar were a couple of the Detroit staples sacrificed for a move that never came. Also - the signage is tacky as hell.

What else do you have, Detroit Yes?

I made this little gem last year...

Attachment 30347

Speaking of the United Artists Building.

Their "stewardship" of Masonic Temple was not that spectacular either.

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Originally Posted by 1953

I made this little gem last year...

Attachment 30347

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What are the buildings in the picture? I know the top left is Madison-Lennox. I can't remember the names of the others.

Little Caesar's Pizza Station -free-standing, fast food pizza locations. Complete bust.

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Originally Posted by GPCharles

Little Caesar's Pizza Station -free-standing, fast food pizza locations. Complete bust.

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Hmm. Can you elaborate? I have a stand alone LC with drive thru by me in Oak Park. The deep dish is actually decent and I'll admit I grab one fairly often. Was this a smaller version? Like a Photomat or something?

Hot & Ready Pizza itself. While a really bad $5.00 pizza may be good if you're feeding kids at a birthday party, as an adult, it's not. It's a massive amount of dough, a dab of sauce, & pre-measured cheese & pepperoni that don't reach anywhere near to the crust. Round or square, little variety. I remember as a kid you could get a made to order pizza there that was actually good. From a business stand point, I guess it's been successful [[probably from parties wanting to feed a bunch of people cheap food). But from an actual pizza place stand point, this is the worst.

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Originally Posted by Enduro

Was this a smaller version? Like a Photomat or something?

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No, they were more like a fast food restaurant where you could get pizza, salad, subs, etc and actually sit down to eat it on site.

Count me in among the fans of the Ilitches. Like all big companies, LC has had its ups and downs, but they're a solid, profitable company, with lots of area employees and thousands of mostly first-time small business owners as franchisees. And flop ideas? Remember the Edsel? The McDLT? New Coke? Businesses try new things. Some work, some don't.

On the sports front, the Ilitches have mostly been willing to pony up the money to field good teams [[obviously 1995-2005 was an austerity period for the Tigers). Doesn't always pan out, but that's true of all sports teams. Say what you want about Comerica Park, it is a better [[if less nostalgic) place to watch a ballgame than Tiger Stadium, and it is integrated into downtown. Same will be true of the LC Arena.

As for property, yes he owns a lot of things that have yet to be restored or land yet to be developed. But a lot is now or about to be starting soon. For the first time in his decades downtown, market conditions are starting to warrant doing the work.

Olympia is far from perfect. But they are good corporate citizens. And they have done more for the city than anyone on this website. And they accept the hate and scorn with a smile.

The idiotic destruction of the Adams Theater. And all of the other the Ilitch-destroyed buildings replaced by empty space. As well as the Ilitch's management and maintenance of most of the buildings they own other than their marquee properties.

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Originally Posted by p69rrh51

Their "stewardship" of Masonic Temple was not that spectacular either.

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Depends on your point of view. If they had not stepped up to the plate [[so to speak), the Masonic might not have made it through. Those were rough times.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Depends on your point of view. If they had not stepped up to the plate [[so to speak), the Masonic might not have made it through. Those were rough times.

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Wasn't it going to be a tax sale?

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Originally Posted by 1953

I made this little gem last year...

Attachment 30347

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Top left: Madison-Lenox, controversial and ILLEGAL demolition [[research it)
Top right: Adams Theatre, preserved the facade, but a consolation for an historic building
Middle left: Detroit YMCA demolished for Comerica Park [[footprint)
Middle Right: Detroit YWCA, demolished for Comerica Park [[footprint)
Bottom Left: Park Avenue Hotel, imploded for a loading/dock ramp for trucks at the new arena
Bottom Right: Hotel Wolverine, demolished for surface parking and for a better view of Comerica Park from Woodward Ave.

Also this: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...pany-buildings

Let us not forget he owns the following buildings mentioned in this photo that are vacant: United Artists Theatre, Detroit Life, Loyal Order of the Moose, Blenheim Building and the giant swaths of gravel parking lots in Foxtown that apparently will become part of the District Detroit. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of that actually happening.

The construction of CoPa also forced the move of the Elwood and Gem Theatre, no thanks to Ilitch and were preserved, thanks to Chuck Forbes. I had heard he also wanted to demolish what is now Cheli's Chili Bar for a 'decorative sidewalk' but a judge ruled that Wayne County cannot take it via eminent domain.

Emu_steve.... Ilitch paid the DTE bill. Otherwise the place would have gone dark, and the remaining Masonic lodges would have left for the burbs.

Zads07... Cheli's Chili is the Women's Exchange Building... where Edsel Ford first met Eleanor Clay... and later begat the Fords of today. The Ilitch's were mad that they didn't get their decorative sidewalk, and showed their vindictiveness by not allowing any parking space arrangements with any prospective purchasers/leaseholders of the building. No parking spaces no businesses... until Chris Chelios came along [[still a Red Wing) and was able to deal with the Ilitch's.

p69rrh51.... the SW side of the United Artists Theatre had the facade come crumbling down back in the 1980s [[before Ilitch ownership)... and that stretch of Clifford was closed for at least a year. The Ilitch's biggest crime in that building was not to secure it from scavengers... and all but 1 of the Indian maiden busts lining the theatre lobby and auditorium were ripped out under the Ilitch stewardship by scavengers.... as well as the extensive sidewall plaster damage due to not fixing a leaking roof. Now the roof is fixed... but possibly too late.

EastsideAl... yup... when the Ilitch's bought the Fine Arts Building and Adams auditorium, it was still a working theatre. But by not repairing or doing anything to the roof, there was 2 inches of mold on all the auditorium seats, and the roof leaked water to ruin most of the surviving plaster. The Fine Arts Building [[the lobby part of the Adams) was wood framed, and eventually had structural collapse, which required demolition [[but the Detroit Historic Commission demanded the facade be saved... for 6 years now with nothing planned). :[[

Also to add to the list... lets not forget the Vermont Hotel [[razed), Chin Tiki [[razed) and a nicely restored 3 story building along Grand River Ave. [[razed)... all for expanding the sea of parking.

On the bright side Little Caesars headquarters is still... a surface parking lot...

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Originally Posted by 48307

On the bright side Little Caesars headquarters is still... a surface parking lot...

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The new GRC had to have some redesigning as it was deemed too small and I also heard that there were permitting issues. On a positive note, the old apartment building behind the new HQ is not going anywhere. They could have saved themselves the moaning and groaning of people like you had they said it will take a while much like Ford did with the release of the announcement of the new HQ canpus, but, oh well.. There should be shovels in the ground soon.

Also, Little Caesar's has rented a few floors of the Palms building as overflow.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it on here or not, but they are starting site prep for the new parking structure located between St. John's and the Tigers garage. Hopefully that will go up quickly and they can start on the apartment buildings replacing lots 1 and 2 in front of CoPa.

And as for peoples comments on the Ilitch's using DDA money to tear down buildings why the hell does everyone hate the Ilitches for that?? Blame the damn DDA for making the money available to them. Would you spend your own money [[for any purpose) if the government has programs that makes money available to you? It is easy to say you wouldn't but when your actually in that position - you probably would. They didn't become multi-billionaires by just throwing money away regardless if they could afford to or not.

Also, most people don't realize how much good the Ilitch family does and how much money they give away. You just don't hear about it. Sure you hear about the large deals, but the small ones that are done with our all the hoopla add up too. Sure, they make money from sponsoring things such as the hockey, but Mike and Marian Ilitch do care about helping people also.

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Originally Posted by Enduro

There's been so much angry chatter about Ilitch's LCD roof and dopey arena name that I feel one of my biggest and more relevant concerns has been lost in the shuffle - the family's lack of success beyond LC's and spending like drunken sailors on free agents. The fact they are going to have a whole neighborhood to brand when they've had so many flops concerns me quite a bit. Here's some of the ones at the top of my mind, please add to the list [[include nasty building deals, neglecting historic structures, etc too!).

Johnny Rockets spot - one of the best location in the city, rent-free, and they can't seem to even stumble into a winner. This is the worst crime of all in context of the question. If they can't make THIS work what makes them think they can handle multiple prime locations?

American Pizza Cafe - perhaps it was before it's time [[in the midwest) but still a flop

Second City - I actually took classes here and the staff and cast was wonderful but the rumor I heard is that this was just a vanity purchase and when the "franchise" license was up for renewal they just let it go. Now there is the often empty City Theater.

Comerica Park - Liquid fireworks?! In a cold midwest city?! The carousel and Ferris Wheel are silly but I can live with them... if the Ferris Wheel riders could actually SEE the game from the top. Knocking down buildings to improve the view of the city. Parking on Woodward? The stadium should butt up to the street, the placement of the parking lot is stupid. The scoreboard was misplaced. Left field walls were too far, players complained and they brought them in, putting the flagpole out of play - eliminating one of the only nods to historic Tiger stadium. If you think the CoPa is a nice modern stadium you need to see a game in another park. Also - worst concessions ever.

Tigers ownership up until 2006 - Dreadful. Even threw Alan Trammel under the bus to manage a shit team. Poor relations with many 1984 players, including Sparky. At least he knew enough to re-hire Ernie Harwell.

The handling of Tiger Stadium - no matter what fate you wanted for the stadium you must agree this was handled poorly [[at best). Sure, the city owned the property but Mike did not help at all.

Motor City Casino [[Marian) - Isn't that a temporary casino location? Weird. Pretty sure the famous Soup Kitchen and less famous but very cool Sardine Bar were a couple of the Detroit staples sacrificed for a move that never came. Also - the signage is tacky as hell.

What else do you have, Detroit Yes?

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The Johnny Rockets site is empty for a reason. Just because they have a prime location for something doesn't mean they use it that way. I know it seems strange but it isn't always about putting something somewhere just to make some money. Making money is just not as important to them as it might be if your company had control of the building. I, myself, wish there was a restaurant in there again. I always though the flagship Little Caesars should be in that location with sit down service with an expanded menu. Maybe test different pizzas there you can't get in a traditional location.

As for Motor City - I believe that was made the permanent location before Marian had sole ownership of it so that wouldn't be on her. And to be fair, Greektown never moved either. Only MGM made good on that.

Hot n' Ready was not a flop. It was a HUGE success... If doesn't matter if 99% of the people on this board don't like the pizza, its been super successful. The company has gown exponentially and has been expanded both in the US abroad even while competitors close stores or open far fewer. They hit a home run with it. And you can still order your customized pizza... they still have all the same topping available.

I work in philanthropy and don't consider Ilitch/Olympia very charitable compared to their peers in corporate America.

19533

PS - Thanks to the previous commentor who identified all the buildings on my jpeg.

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Originally Posted by 1953

I work in philanthropy and don't consider Ilitch/Olympia very charitable compared to their peers in corporate America.

19533

PS - Thanks to the previous commentor who identified all the buildings on my jpeg.

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Just to be clear: not a single person on this board has any idea how much the Ilitches give to charity, either personally or through their businesses. The companies are privately held, so there is no required disclosure. And, with a few notable exceptions [[like the WSU business school), they don't hold a lot of press conferences announcing their charity. 1953, it would be more correct for you to state that you are not aware of significant charitable donations by the Ilitches. Of course, a quick Google search does reveal many millions of dollars in donations in recent years, not counting the WSU donations. Or events they sponsor that raise millions.

I, for one, have never sought credit for any [[modest) money I have donated to anything. I give anonymously in most cases. I also don't claim charitable deductions on my tax returns [[I think it makes it less charitable if it saves you money; I also think the government should not be in the business of deeming our private transactions to be morally worthy of lowering our effective tax rates).

Sounds like another famous, or infamous, 'Detroit Yes - Ilitch No' hit job threads... :mad:

Lot of folks don't like his commercial moves and a lot of people loathe sports, esp. if there is public moneys involved.

Add those two together and one gets threads [[plural) like these...

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Sounds like another famous, or infamous, 'Detroit Yes - Ilitch No' hit job threads... :mad:

Lot of folks don't like his commercial moves and a lot of people loathe sports, esp. if there is public moneys involved.

Add those two together and one gets threads [[plural) like these...

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A hit job? Really?

So we shouldn't say anything when a billionaire is just handed a quarter billion dollars of our tax dollars to build a hockey area, with no guarantee of the promised additional development?

Are we way out of line here?

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Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Count me in among the fans of the Ilitches. Like all big companies, LC has had its ups and downs, but they're a solid, profitable company, with lots of area employees and thousands of mostly first-time small business owners as franchisees. And flop ideas? Remember the Edsel? The McDLT? New Coke? Businesses try new things. Some work, some don't.

On the sports front, the Ilitches have mostly been willing to pony up the money to field good teams [[obviously 1995-2005 was an austerity period for the Tigers). Doesn't always pan out, but that's true of all sports teams. Say what you want about Comerica Park, it is a better [[if less nostalgic) place to watch a ballgame than Tiger Stadium, and it is integrated into downtown. Same will be true of the LC Arena.

As for property, yes he owns a lot of things that have yet to be restored or land yet to be developed. But a lot is now or about to be starting soon. For the first time in his decades downtown, market conditions are starting to warrant doing the work.

Olympia is far from perfect. But they are good corporate citizens. And they have done more for the city than anyone on this website. And they accept the hate and scorn with a smile.

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Good corporate citizens? That's debatable...

As for doing more than anyone else on this website, no one else on this website has been handed hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer handouts either. There are a number of people on this site who have renovated Detroit properties and started businesses in the city without multi-million dollar cash handouts from the taxpayers.

I do agree with you that they accept the hate and scorn from us with a smile, as they cash a quarter-billion dollar welfare check from us. If I conned the government into giving me a quarter-billion dollars, I'd smile too.

Never mind that, though. Just keep on thinking that handing out hundreds of millions of our tax dollars to a billionaire, with no strings attached, is clearly the best use of our scarce public funding, and label any citizen who dares to question the financial reality of the arrangement a "hater."

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Originally Posted by jackie5275

No, they were more like a fast food restaurant where you could get pizza, salad, subs, etc and actually sit down to eat it on site.

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Ah yes, we had one at Warren and Fielding [[Everygreen) that lasted quite a while. We'd go there on break at Kroger. They also served beer [[to an underage but convincing me) - in wax paper cups. Yum!

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Originally Posted by Detroit

Also, most people don't realize how much good the Ilitch family does and how much money they give away. You just don't hear about it. Sure you hear about the large deals, but the small ones that are done with our all the hoopla add up too. Sure, they make money from sponsoring things such as the hockey, but Mike and Marian Ilitch do care about helping people also.

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Are you claiming to be privy to information on the immense secret philanthropy of the Ilitch family?

I can appreciate that businesses and concepts don't always hit the target but the failures are relevant to my concerns. I can appreciate not needing to know what a private citizen gives to charity and don't care what they do there.

However, I don't appreciate the payroll tax dodging, the refusal to pay the nominal JLA bills, the intentional demolition by neglect, the decades of hording properties in prime spots waiting for a Gilbert to step in and make them worth saving. And I loathe that he has the gall to take money from a city that just emerged from bankruptcy, I don't care if it's "available." The national reporting has been very harsh and rightly so. I hope this haunts his legacy.

Also, I'd love to know this altruistic reason why the Johnny Rocket's spot is strategically closed. That argument might hold water if they hadn't failed there already, they clearly tried.

And the argument that Comerica Park is an upgrade to Tiger Stadium is subjective [[although I mostly agree, I still would have preferred a retro fit) so I'll give you that, however, it is most definitely not better than its contemporaries.

My main concern remains - the concessions in CoPa have been dreadful and lazy, the Johnny Rockets spot has never had a winner, the casino is uninspired... What makes anyone think they can raise an artificial entertainment district out of nothing that will be successful? Or that they will honor any of their agreements? This is already turning into the Bait n' Switchy Arena.

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Originally Posted by Detroit

They could have saved themselves the moaning and groaning of people like you

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My moaning and groaning will stop when the Ilitch's complete the first non-taxpayer subsidized project. As exciting as the Ilitch catalog of gravel [[at best) surface parking lots are, I'd like to see some actual, real progress.

Judge the man on merit not because he owns your favorite team. Take away the Tigers and Redwings from his portfolio and what's left that has changed anything in the city for the last 25 years?

Give me 250 million and all the land you have that I want for the sum of one dollar and I will impress the hell out of you with my generosity in public. It's all relevant.

He is by far the largest speculator in Detroit, more than happy to be sitting on the sidelines waiting for others to do the hard work that increases the value of his holdings.

Chuck Forbes got $14 million for his properties that were taken away for the Stadia district... and he has sunk most of that in the properties he owns in the Foxtown district. Chuck was a retired Ford executive... not a billionaire! Did he get all these sweetheart deals that Ilitch got? I hardly think so. And yet unlike Ilitch... you need more than the fingers of one hand to count what he has renovated or restored.

I don't know why anyone doesn't realize why the Johnny Rocket location in the Fox Building is still empty?? It couldn't make a go of it as a Johnny Rocket Restaurant... nor as an American Pizza Cafe before that. And it's the same reason why the State Bar next door in the Francis Palms Building [[Fillmore Theatre) is only open during restricted hours. With a sea of Ilitch owned parking in that area... there's no foot traffic north of GCP during non game days [[or non theatre nights). The only reason that Hockeytown Cafe is working, is that it is a destination location... people park in the Fox garage, and go just there [[as well as some LC employees at lunch).

An entertainment district with hundreds of feet between destinations is what the Ilitch's have brought us.... that needs to change. Hopefully it will... but we have to wait and see how it turns out... just like we do with everything the Ilitch's announce.

I wonder about Hockeytown. We tried to get lunch from their a couple times when I worked in the "M@dison" building. Food was not exciting at all and it never seemed to be busy on non-game days. I don't know anyone who has opted to go there more than twice unless it was to have a beer before a game.

Correct EMU Steve

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Sounds like another famous, or infamous, 'Detroit Yes - Ilitch No' hit job threads... :mad:

Lot of folks don't like his commercial moves and a lot of people loathe sports, esp. if there is public moneys involved.

Add those two together and one gets threads [[plural) like these...

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Originally Posted by Gistok

...An entertainment district with hundreds of feet between destinations is what the Ilitch's have brought us.... that needs to change. Hopefully it will... but we have to wait and see how it turns out... just like we do with everything the Ilitch's announce.

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Did I not hear that Ilitch said he regretted the Gem relocation, and that he has come to appreciate the idea of urban density? I couldn't find the reference.

If so, is repentance sufficient for DYforgiveness?

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Originally Posted by 48307

My moaning and groaning will stop when the Ilitch's complete the first non-taxpayer subsidized project. As exciting as the Ilitch catalog of gravel [[at best) surface parking lots are, I'd like to see some actual, real progress.

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AND nearly all of those lots are ILLEGAL.

By City ordinance,. any parking lot in the city must be fenced in with wrought iron fencing. [[Expensive)

Mr. Illich seems to be immune to this. As a result,.. when you see a dirty parking lot downtown fenced in with wavy cyclone fencing,.. it's a safe bet it belongs to Illich Holdings.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Did I not hear that Ilitch said he regretted the Gem relocation, and that he has come to appreciate the idea of urban density? I couldn't find the reference.

If so, is repentance sufficient for DYforgiveness?

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Hell no. Actions not words. After so many false promises his words are worthless. And can you name anyone who has destroyed more density in Detroit than Ilitch?

The powers that be have given Ilitch yet another chance. Maybe this time he will build the delights he entices us to believe putting our public moneys in his private hands will bring. His words are so inspiring. They paint a glorious picture of "District Detroit":

It will "surprise locals and guests with an intriguing, intimate and timeless experience." It will include "unique shops, boutiques, galleries, and cafes ... restaurants, wine bars, jazz clubs and speakeasies ... offering a social, vibrant hangout ... framed by trees, flowers and greenery."

It will include a "tree-shaded respite" surrounded by "new offices, retail specialty shops and loft-style condos ... a terraced cafe ... manicured gardens ... [a] lawn ... [a] dog run ... [and] boundless opportunities to play, interact, relax and connect."

"It will be alive and buzzing every day, all year long ... pulsating with nightclub electricity, where food vendors, restaurants and shops will cater to a high-energy crowd that comes together to celebrate." It will "deliver casual shopping, terraced dining, loft-living and a dynamic gathering place."

It will be "an authentic experience like few other places in the nation ... [and] party central ... Bars, shops and street vendors [will] take part in the celebration, offering a variety of delights day or night." It will "pay homage to times gone by ... with architectural details that harkens back to industrial roots."

It will be "part entrepreneurial, part artistic ... with individuality and expression ... a hotbed for artists who will launch new ideas ... a tight-knit community ... home to independent shops, local markets and galleries." It will have "a relaxed atmosphere with a free-spirited attitude." It will be "like a small town ... [and] will encourage people to get to know each other." "shop owners and cafe start-ups [will] welcome visitors ... in comfortable and casual surroundings ... as neighbors meet in the backyard for informal get-togethers or at the park for pickup softball ... [and] local bars and galleries will come alive, offering events from poetry slams to local garage bands to full-out launch parties."

But don't expect it. Nothing binds Ilitch to build any of it.

If history provides a lesson his promises begin diminishing shortly after he collects his permits and taxpayer assistance, and his actions will peter out as soon as he builds those aspects of his plan that maximize his financial interests.

Maybe this time things will be different. Some say let's not dwell in the past. Let's be optimistic. The skeptics are haters who see a glass half empty. They hate sports. They hate billionaires. They're practically un-american. Let's give Ilitch a second chance [[and a third, and a fourth, and...).

I say let's not be so foolish as to place our faith in someone who has repeatedly broken our trust. Let's hold our applause until he proves himself. And let's wise up and stop giving away so much taxpayer money with so little to ensure it's a good public investment.

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Originally Posted by bust

And can you name anyone who has destroyed more density in Detroit than Ilitch?

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I was prepared to make an argument saying that Matty was worse, but I think you're right, Ilitch is the worst. He's been speculatively holding land has parking lots, a huge missed opportunity, as he made all his sports venues places where you go, see the game, and then leave.

We used to have a member on DYES named Verifiable... he hasn't posted in years... but he did keep a tab on Ilitch owned property. Now this map dates to around 2010, so it's quite outdated. And there are a few errors... such as Ilitch has never owned property on the Statler block. But just look at the huge number of parcels he does own. But I'll bet you one thing.... he hasn't sold a single one. Most are just parking lots now.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...wL8Ek&hl=en_US

I found an old DYES thread from 2009 that talks about the 3 story 2030 Grand River Ave. building that was torn down by Ilitch... because it would make a good parking lot. This was a decent building that was a home to some Detroit Techno music companies...

http://www.atdetroit.net/forum/messa...tml?1236283690

Wow are they laying it on thick with that description of "District Detroit." It would be hilarious if this wasn't the second or third time he's promised the moon and not delivered on a fraction of it. The more I think about the roof switcheroo, the loading dock "compromise" the more I get angry. How many more surprises are we in store for before this thing opens?

I wrote a satirical article about the "Bait-n-Switch Arena" and even printed up a t-shirt for myself because I was so proud of the silly logo I made. Red-Wings Owner Offers Detroit Teachers Summer Jobs Building New Arena

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Originally Posted by Enduro

I wrote a satirical article about the "Bait-n-Switch Arena" and even printed up a t-shirt for myself because I was so proud of the silly logo I made. Red-Wings Owner Offers Detroit Teachers Summer Jobs Building New Arena

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LOVE IT! I was grinning through the whole article!

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Originally Posted by 48307

LOVE IT! I was grinning through the whole article!

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Thanks, I appreciate the feedback!

Enduro, love the thread.

I have to add the new Fox digital boards to the list of dog-shit. It looks like a big blob of light at night, way to bright. It really detracts from the signage.

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Originally Posted by bust

Hell no. Actions not words. After so many false promises his words are worthless. And can you name anyone who has destroyed more density in Detroit than Ilitch?

The powers that be have given Ilitch yet another chance. Maybe this time he will build the delights he entices us to believe putting our public moneys in his private hands will bring. His words are so inspiring. They paint a glorious picture of "District Detroit":

...snip out brilliant BS...

But don't expect it. Nothing binds Ilitch to build any of it.

If history provides a lesson his promises begin diminishing shortly after he collects his permits and taxpayer assistance, and his actions will peter out as soon as he builds those aspects of his plan that maximize his financial interests.

Maybe this time things will be different. Some say let's not dwell in the past. Let's be optimistic. The skeptics are haters who see a glass half empty. They hate sports. They hate billionaires. They're practically un-american. Let's give Ilitch a second chance [[and a third, and a fourth, and...).

I say let's not be so foolish as to place our faith in someone who has repeatedly broken our trust. Let's hold our applause until he proves himself. And let's wise up and stop giving away so much taxpayer money with so little to ensure it's a good public investment.

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'The powers that be' be us. We have decided that development is the function of civic authority. And those authorities take the BS from all developers [[not just Ilitch), hoist it up high, bless it, then anoint it with taxpayer money.

[[Aside, it will be interesting to see how President Trump views the BS of other developers from the oval office.)

You can blame the carnival barkers, or you can blame the shills who pay out money to see the two-headed lady and step inside.

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Originally Posted by Dbest

Enduro, love the thread.

I have to add the new Fox digital boards to the list of dog-shit. It looks like a big blob of light at night, way to bright. It really detracts from the signage.

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You know I was worried about that too but I don't think it looks bad. Perhaps I'm just thrilled they decided to use real neon to refurbish the sign and not that fake plastic junk that the Magic Bag in Ferndale used. BTW I think the MC Casino lights are dreadful.

There were concept drawings floating around hinting that Gilbert was going to give the Madison marquee a similar face lift [[I used to work in the building) but I'm not sure what ever came of it [[the company axed all its Detroit staff so I'm out of the loop again). Would be kind of a waste with the People Mover column right in front of it though.

Dbest, sorry, I will give the Ilitch's their deserved criticism... but we part ways here... I think the new signage looks 100 times better than the old plain signage...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

'The powers that be' be us. We have decided that development is the function of civic authority. And those authorities take the BS from all developers [[not just Ilitch), hoist it up high, bless it, then anoint it with taxpayer money.

[[Aside, it will be interesting to see how President Trump views the BS of other developers from the oval office.)

You can blame the carnival barkers, or you can blame the shills who pay out money to see the two-headed lady and step inside.

---

You make a really good point to highlight the powers that be who make the decisions what to do with taxpayer money. It's at the crux of the situation.

However I disagree "'the powers that be' be us." The powers that be who diverted up to $324M of taxpayer money away from Michigan schools into Ilitch's hands for his sports arena were the Detroit Downtown Development Authority [[DDA) which is a subsidiary of the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation [[DEGC), and the Michigan Strategic Fund [[MSF), a subsidiary of the Michigan Economic Development Corporation [[MEDC).

They are not government agencies, they're ostensibly "non-profit organizations." They're run by un-elected officials. They make crucial decisions what to do with our public funds. And they've been set up in partnership with some of the private corporations whose financial interests are most heavily vested in the decisions they make.

Who are they specifically and how are their business interests tied to the decisions they make? What an important question. Let's quickly look at membership of the DDA. Today they are:

• Hon. Mike Duggan, Mayor of the City of Detroit
• Robert Anderson, City of Detroit
• Marvin Beaty, Greektown Casino
• David Blaszkiewicz, Detroit Investment Fund/Downtown Detroit Partnership
• Ehrlich Crain, White Construction
• Harold Curry, C.O.S. Group, LLC
• Sonya Delley, Flagstar Bank
• Richard Hosey, Resident
• Cheryl Johnson, City of Detroit
• Stephen Ogden, Rock Ventures

Ted Gatzaros, former partner in the Greektown Casino, was there too when the decision to fund the arena was made.

Interesting that Greektown Casino and Rock Ventures are part of this. Interesting too that Olympia is not. But who are the rest?

I didn't look long into this, but I wasn't surprised to quickly discover Ehrlich Crain is Vice President, Business Development of White Construction. They were granted the contract to build the arena. Imagine how much money they're set to make.

Neither was I surprised to discover Flagstar is the official bank partner of the Red Wings.

I'm sure there's more here to be found.

This quasi-governmental organization has direct financial relationships with some of the private corporations who benefit most from its decisions. They're not directly accountable to taxpayers. They seem barely even indirectly accountable to us. And they're just one among several similar quasi-governmental organizations deciding what to do with Michigan taxpayer money.

Just one of them gave away hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars for just one project. Money that would have otherwise gone to Michigan schools. How many total taxpayer dollars do these organizations control overall? What else do they allocate it for? Whose private financial interests are they benefiting? And what ties to these companies do the people making the decisions have? These are important questions we really ought to discuss.

I have neither the time time nor the expertise to conduct a thorough investigation. A proper investigative journalist ought to look into this. Are there still any investigative journalists in Detroit?

[QUOTE=bust;505447]You make a really good point to highlight the powers that be who make the decisions what to do with taxpayer money. It's at the crux of the situation.

However I disagree "'the powers that be' be us." The powers that be who diverted up to $324M of taxpayer money away from Michigan schools into Ilitch's hands for his sports arena were the Detroit Downtown Development Authority [[DDA) which is a subsidiary of the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation [[DEGC), and the Michigan Strategic Fund [[MSF), a subsidiary of the Michigan Economic Development Corporation [[MEDC).
...snip.../QUOTE]
Diverted? I dislike those pejorative verbs. Is it only a diversion if you don't get your way? But that's beside the point.

The font of the money is the taxpayer. The government, elected by the taxpayers, allocates the money -- usually by vote of their representatives. If they choose to 'divert' the money to quasi-governmental entities, I don't blame the QGEs. I blame those who gave them the cash to spend.

I don't know the details on the school 'diversion', but anyone who is 'dedicating' money to schools, and then hands it to any TLA [[or FLA) without appropriate 'strings' didn't really intended it to be 'dedicated' to schools [[in this case).

And one more step... somehow Detroit at least spends more than average per pupil on education. The 'diversion' does not appear to have stopped the flow of the funding river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Dbest, sorry, I will give the Ilitch's their deserved criticism... but we part ways here... I think the new signage looks 100 times better than the old plain signage...

---

We have a difference of opinion on this, I think the readers should look as authentic as possible. I also contend the "flat screens" detract from the neon marquee. It literally draws your eyes to a friggin TV.

Like I give two shits about seeing some photo accompanying the name of the act on the reader like in the image you posted...

Attachment 30375

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Diverted? I dislike those pejorative verbs. Is it only a diversion if you don't get your way? ...

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Divert isn't a pejorative verb. We disagree about a few things, but I'm surprised we disagree about that. Mirriam-Webster's defines it as "to change the direction or use of [[something)". That's what happened.

It's the term Crain's used to describe the situation:

Quote:

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The DDA district property tax capture and the diverted school tax would repay $261.5 million [[58 percent) of the building’s construction bonds while Olympia would provide $188.4 million [[42 percent), according to details provided by the state.

The state reimburses the schools for the diverted money, the DDA has said.

---

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ed-wings-arena

Most everyone else does too. Bloomberg Business Week described the situation in detail:

Quote:

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Tapping Schools

Almost 60 percent of the funds to pay for the arena would come from taxpayers. Bonds would be backed by a combination of about $15 million in annual payments from Detroit’s Downtown Development Authority and $11.5 million from Olympia. Wayne County may also provide support, according to a July 24 memo.

In December, Michigan’s legislature revived the ability of the development authority to take a portion of school-tax revenue generated by property on 615 downtown acres. The money, which had gone toward economic-development bonds, would be used for debt service on a project meeting the characteristics of a new Red Wings arena.

The levy generates about $13 million, said Bob Rossbach, a spokesman for the authority.

The money otherwise would have reverted to public schools and the state’s school-aid fund, according to a legislative analysis. The state will reimburse the district to make up shortfalls, just as did before 2011, said Rossbach.

“It’s not taking money from Detroit Public Schools and putting it into economic development,” Rossbach said.

Bipartisan Scorn

However, the state still must take money from programs to make up for cash benefiting the Iliches, said Shikha Dalmia, a senior analyst for the Los Angeles-based Reason Foundation, which describes itself as a public-policy think tank promoting free-market economics.

“The left should be crying bloody murder,” Dalmia said. “Why are you diverting money that’s meant for Detroit school children to this guy’s pocket? And the right should be crying about crony capitalism. They could easily have passed another state law which allowed this money to go to fighting crime, or a bazillion other things.”

---

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...t-city-suffers

Those articles were published in 2013. Since then the DDA requested permission to lift the cap on how much revenue they can divert to repay the arena bonds. The entity to consider the request was the Michigan Strategic Fund [[MSF). Permission was granted, and the diversion of funds is now expected to exceed $15M per year instead of $13M, and could go higher. The percent of the funding for the arena that comes from public money would go higher too.

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/fi...nt?oid=2249280

Why was the cap lifted? Partly to make a particular batch of arena bonds a safer investment for Bank of America, who purchased them. Also to credit Olympia an additional $74M of taxpayer money beyond the $250M they've already secured. Crain's turned to the DDA's spokesman Robert Rossbach to explain:

Quote:

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Any additional money collected by the DDA beyond the original $15 million cap goes into a reserve fund, he said.

Those additional taxes collected beyond the $15 million had been originally obligated to pay Olympia a rebate, up to $74 million over the life of the bonds, as an incentive for its investment of $200 million in private ancillary development around the arena, Rossbach said. The rebate was part of the arena deal between the DDA and Olympia, and was to begin five years after the arena opened.

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http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...s-cap-on-taxes

Don't forget Olympia doesn't have to invest the $200M themselves:

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/20...nt?oid=2201843

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

The font of the money is the taxpayer.

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Indeed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

The government, elected by the taxpayers, allocates the money -- usually by vote of their representatives. If they choose to 'divert' the money to quasi-governmental entities, I don't blame the QGEs. I blame those who gave them the cash to spend.

---

But what percentage of Michigan taxpayers has even heard about the DDA, the DEGC, the MSF, and the MEDC? I've looked into this a bit and still don't understand what they do and how the people who run them are selected. It's not something the news media inform us about. Certainly not the dailies three-days-a-weeklies. Not tv, not radio either. It's a shame the "fourth estate" has been so decimated, especially in places like Michigan. They've been unable or unwilling to do the job.

These topics don't make for good sound bites in campaign ads either. Fearmongering is much more effective. It takes a strong interest and an active effort to learn the important facts these days. The situation leaves most people to vote by their gut instincts instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't know the details on the school 'diversion', but anyone who is 'dedicating' money to schools, and then hands it to any TLA [[or FLA) without appropriate 'strings' didn't really intended it to be 'dedicated' to schools [[in this case).

---

...Except they were not the same people. The people who granted the authority to divert taxpayer money away from schools are an entirely different bunch, with different priorities. The DDA was created in 1978.

http://www.manta.com/c/mm70nzh/city-...ment-authority

In fairness, it's all incredibly complicated and confusing. I don't blame anyone who has a hard time following what's going on. I do too. I wonder even if it was designed to be this way.

Government officials are expected to end any relationships and divest or put into a blind trust any investments with corporations that have interests in the decisions they make. Federal officials and many others must do so by law. I'm not sure what conflict of interest laws apply to State and City officials in Michigan. And I know of no evidence any conflict of interest has occurred. But the situation is ripe for abuse and considering the money at stake these extra-governmental agencies are worth looking into. They give interested corporations a big share of power over public purse strings while evading the scrutiny public officials would attract, and seem to skirt any conflict of interest laws that exist.

The relationships between these governmental and extra-governmental agencies and the private companies they fund are so convoluted it's easy to get thrown off the trail. It's tiresome trying to make sense of the labyrinthine details. It feels like relief getting distracted before figuring them out.

I saw it on the news: Detroit went buckwild over the weekend. How big are Trump's hands, really? CJ Barrymore's opened a roller coaster! Are Ozzy and Sharon kaput? How about that woman who spray painted her cheating husband's Range Rover? What happened to the Tigers' offensive productivity? Who will inherit Prince's estate? Eva Mendes was secretly pregnant and already gave birth! Did Gigi Hadid wear anything under that dress? Those killer tornadoes in Oklahoma. It looks like several days of rain....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by erikd

Good corporate citizens? That's debatable...

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Of coursre it's debatable! It's an opinion.

For the record, I do not advocate corporate welfare. Please note: Mike Ilitch has never held elective office. If one is opposed to a certain government expenditure, the logical target of the opposition is the spender, i.e. government. I have never said questioning corporate welfare was an act of hatred. But a quick scan of Ilitch-themed threads does reveal a large amount of vitriol and yes, hatred, for the Ilitches. I mean "stabbed my baby to death and then laughed" level of hatred.

Ilitch Charities, Inc. - "provide support to children and family programs in the areas of health, recreation and education."

Per the 2014 Form 990, the entity had YE net assets of $5,558,549 and made grants of $1,189,424.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

But a quick scan of Ilitch-themed threads does reveal a large amount of vitriol and yes, hatred, for the Ilitches. I mean "stabbed my baby to death and then laughed" level of hatred.

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I agree but I think a lot of that hate is in direct contrast to the blind devotion for him that the media and the average metro Detroiter seems to have for him. It's kind of like there's a small minority of people in this town that have the sunglasses from They Live and we can't believe no one else can see him for what he is. Sure it is all perfectly legal but it is very unsavory and he deserves bad PR for it.

Sure, he isn't the one ultimately deciding to hand out our money but he is actively seeking it, he does actively lobby politicians, he does comically over promise on his Utopia District's mission and he has done a lot, I'm sure unintentionally, to sabotage downtown's development by squatting on a huge swath of property. I'd love to see a single journalist in town [[save Lessenberry who goes largely ignored) dare even bring the question up. Comerica Park had promises of year round restaurants and shops. Ford Field still has all this unused office space for rent. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for District Detroit's Jazz club to materialize.

My intention for this post was to question his qualifications to curate several brand new ventures simultaneously based on his previous record beyond Little Caesars proper. I think it's a fair question given the scale of the project and the impact it will have on the city with or without public money.

Seems like times are changing a bit. Used to be that if you brought up inconvenient facts about Mike Ilitch and his business dealings, there'd be more posters shouting you down. Nice to see a discussion of the city's No. 1 welfare addict and how it breeds poor business acumen.

If I remember correctly, the reason Second City shut down was because Olympia wasn't paying the licensing fees. Silly Chicagoans! Don't they understand that Mikey doesn't have to pay stuff like licensing fees. Not when you have as much power as he's used to.

Or, as old Vanderbilt once said: "The law? What do I care about the law? Ain't I got the power?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bust

Divert isn't a pejorative verb. We disagree about a few things, but I'm surprised we disagree about that. Mirriam-Webster's defines it as "to change the direction or use of [[something)". That's what happened.

---

Fair enough. The scheme seems like a scheme -- and the use of the word might be appropriate. But I still lump the word with 'slash' and 'struggle' in today's media.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bust

But what percentage of Michigan taxpayers has even heard about the DDA, the DEGC, the MSF, and the MEDC? I've looked into this a bit and still don't understand what they do and how the people who run them are selected. It's not something the news media inform us about. Certainly not the dailies three-days-a-weeklies. Not tv, not radio either. It's a shame the "fourth estate" has been so decimated, especially in places like Michigan. They've been unable or unwilling to do the job.

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Perjorative verb alert... 'decimated'. They're not down to 10%... or maybe they are. But the word is certainly a favorite of the blogosphere -- which to me counts are part of the fourth estate in many ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bust

...The relationships between these governmental and extra-governmental agencies and the private companies they fund are so convoluted it's easy to get thrown off the trail. It's tiresome trying to make sense of the labyrinthine details. It feels like relief getting distracted before figuring them out.

---

So perhaps there shouldn't be any EGAs? I think we would agree that they are often just a Robert Moses Lazarus Effect [[RMLE)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bust

I saw it on the news: Detroit went buckwild over the weekend. How big are Trump's hands, really? CJ Barrymore's opened a roller coaster! Are Ozzy and Sharon kaput? How about that woman who spray painted her cheating husband's Range Rover? What happened to the Tigers' offensive productivity? Who will inherit Prince's estate? Eva Mendes was secretly pregnant and already gave birth! Did Gigi Hadid wear anything under that dress? Those killer tornadoes in Oklahoma. It looks like several days of rain....

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All true, except about the rain. Is TV weather ever accurate? Even before they were decimated.

I'll just say this year's Tigers

Remember when the Park Avenue Hotel needed to come down because high-rise buildings can't be next to arenas, according to Homeland Security guidelines? Surprise! That was total BS!

Here's a pic from tonight's game. And thank god the Tigers snapped their skid.

Attachment 30390

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Junjie

Remember when the Park Avenue Hotel needed to come down because high-rise buildings can't be next to arenas, according to Homeland Security guidelines? Surprise! That was total BS!

Here's a pic from tonight's game. And thank god the Tigers snapped their skid.

Attachment 30390

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Actually there are no high rises near Nationals Park yet [[that has been the problem, i.e., construction nearest the stadium has languished because of the 2008 recession and tangled land deals).

The only structures near [[adjacent) Nationals Park are the two parking structures. One is visible in center field.

The commercial office buildings and lodging buildings under construction, visible in the photo, are say a 1/4 mile or more away. One very long block away.

They are further than they appear on the photo. The subway stop is 1/4 mile from the stadium's center field entrance.

There is a new apartment building across S.Capitol which some might think is too close, though. It is however, separated by a 6 lane divided highway. I'll let security buffs say if that is too close.

Go Tigers tonight. Zimmerman vs. Scherzer in a high interest game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Actually there are no high rises near Nationals Park yet [[that has been the problem, i.e., construction nearest the stadium has languished because of the 2008 recession and tangled land deals).

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Highrise buildings aren't allowed in core DC. In any case, no one is building a highrise building because of a baseball field.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Highrise buildings aren't allowed in core DC. In any case, no one is building a highrise building because of a baseball field.

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I assume the buildings under construction are 'standard' D.C. 'high rises' which are what 12 or 13 stories tall. Not sure exactly.

They are clearly visible in the photograph.

Yes, there are height limits in D.C. No Trump Tower for D.C. :o

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Highrise buildings aren't allowed in core DC. In any case, no one is building a highrise building because of a baseball field.

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Although as we've discussed many, many times, in that part of D.C. the development has been so amazing it is not possible to say the development is because of X or Y or Z.

The baseball stadium was DELIBERATELY placed a 1/4 mile walk from a subway station. It is near some some new federal office buildings, e.g., DOT, etc.

The plan was always to foster development in a forlorn area with convenient access to subway.

It has been a huge success.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Actually there are no high rises near Nationals Park yet [[that has been the problem, i.e., construction nearest the stadium has languished because of the 2008 recession and tangled land deals).

The only structures near [[adjacent) Nationals Park are the two parking structures. One is visible in center field.

The commercial office buildings and lodging buildings under construction, visible in the photo, are say a 1/4 mile or more away. One very long block away.

They are further than they appear on the photo. The subway stop is 1/4 mile from the stadium's center field entrance.

There is a new apartment building across S.Capitol which some might think is too close, though. It is however, separated by a 6 lane divided highway. I'll let security buffs say if that is too close.

Go Tigers tonight. Zimmerman vs. Scherzer in a high interest game.

---

Those buildings are on the block across the street from the stadium. The brown completed building at right of cranes is significantly closer to the stadium than the metro. The empty space even closer to the stadium is a planned construction site, so I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that the "concern" expressed that someone would use the Park Avenue's height to fire a weapon at Little Caesars Arena was fallacious BS, since DC [[which I'm inclined to think has a higher likelihood of terror attacks than Detroit) has no problem building structures that look directly into the stadium on the block next to it.

Edit: I just measured on google maps for you. Going a quarter mile from the completed building [[Hampton Suites?) puts you all the way across the stadium on the south side. The concourse is 300 ft away and center field seats 400 ft. away from that building. The building under construction is 500 ft. from the center field seats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emu steve

The commercial office buildings and lodging buildings under construction, visible in the photo, are say a 1/4 mile or more away. One very long block away.

They are further than they appear on the photo. The subway stop is 1/4 mile from the stadium's center field entrance.

---

Actually, the Metro is less than a city block from the outfield entrance at Nats Park, maybe 1/8 mile away, tops. Also, there is a new 12-13 story hotel directly across the street from one of the two parking structures attached to the park, with another 12-13 story building going up directly across the street from the other structure. Granted, the parking structures are between the stadium itself and the hotel/new building, but the structures are part of the stadium footprint.

Plus, there are two 10ish story developments slated to go directly across the street from the outfield entrance to the park. One is supposed to start later this year with delivery in 2018, while the other is still a vacant hole awaiting funding. Sorry, I don't know how to do a link on here, but if you google 65 N Street NE Washington, D.C., you can see the two parking structures, the outfield entrance, the stadium, and the development locations on the north side of N Street directly across from the park.

I don't know if the layout in DC proves Ilitch is full of shit or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dbc

...Plus, there are two 10ish story developments slated to go directly across the street from the outfield entrance to the park. ... I don't know if the layout in DC proves Ilitch is full of shit or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

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Ilitch apologist Wes here.

An observation about all human behavior. If Flint's water goes bad, and you hate Snyder. Then Snyder did it. If you don't someone else's 10-story building nearby, and someone from DHS says they don't like them near stadiums, then you hear 'we need to tear them down because DHS says so'.

Maybe Ilitch is evil... or maybe just self-serving. Nothing illegal if the later. But you don't have to like it.

Let's just cut to the chase. Five years and a few months of a billionaire sports team owner in town that doesn't own ANY in the D has proven that Ilitch is part of the problem and not the solution.

Sucking up property like a vacuum and doing nothing with it besides parking and stadiums then making empty promises while he is handed hundreds of millions and even more property for his private use hasn't produced anything but 'hope' that things will change. Hope never paid the salary of a policeman or firefighter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Perjorative verb alert... 'decimated'. They're not down to 10%... or maybe they are.

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Decimated means to reduce BY 10%. Not reduce DOWN TO 10%.

When an army has been decimated,... it means 10% of the soldiers have been killed or badly wounded,.. at which point a sane general would typically surrender.

The media seems to have never taken English,.. and they use that word as though it meant "destroyed".

Of course the media in general also has no idea that "due" is not a synonym for because. It can only be used to imply legal obligation.

Nor do they have any clue what a vigilante is. [[A member of a vigilance committee.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigdd

Decimated means to reduce BY 10%. Not reduce DOWN TO 10%. ...

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Thanks for the decimating my comment. Due to your post, I'll apply more vigilante-ism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigdd

Decimated means to reduce BY 10%. Not reduce DOWN TO 10%.

When an army has been decimated,... it means 10% of the soldiers have been killed or badly wounded,.. at which point a sane general would typically surrender.

The media seems to have never taken English,.. and they use that word as though it meant "destroyed".

Of course the media in general also has no idea that "due" is not a synonym for because. It can only be used to imply legal obligation.

Nor do they have any clue what a vigilante is. [[A member of a vigilance committee.)

---

You might not like the fact that language evolves, but it does. Using "decimate" as a synonym for "destroy" is not incorrect. I did not know, however, that it can also mean "tithe" or a 10% tax.

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2...roy-one-tenth/

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decimate

Correct DetroiterOnTheWestCoast....

In WWII Coventry, Dresden and Rotterdam were decimated [[utterly destroyed)....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

You might not like the fact that language evolves,

---

I think you mean "devolves".

And it is not ok that as a result of lack of education, and fools misusing words that 2 very different words now mean the same thing to some people.

So now there's no word for destroying 1/10 of something?

We'll have no word for a baby goat? No word to infer legal obligation?

We'll need to talk in very long sentences filled with 3 letter words because no one can actually speak English?

TV is all done at a 6th grade education level,.. so even idiots can enjoy it. And the average TV broadcaster has an education level not much above that.

Are we to allow them to be the ultimate determiners of language? Does the teenage valet at your local mall get to determine the car you drive?

Right on DotWC.

Decimate has been used to mean "destroy a large portion of" since the 1660's:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earch=decimate

That's how I used it.

Bigdd, would you suggest we return to the other conventions of English that existed prior to then? Dryden's "Maiden Queen" was published in 1667:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Es...page&q&f=false

Language like that would seem out of place today. And things were already "devolving".

It was interesting to learn the original, or subsequent, meaning of decimate. But I can't remember yet having a use for a word that means to destroy specifically 10% of something. It's been more useful to have a word that means to destroy a large portion of something, and I know of no better word than decimate for that. I'll continue to use it that way.

I'll continue using "kid" as a synonym for "child" too. And for a baby goat in the proper context. I think most people will understand. :)

Sorry, guys, for the confusion.

I doubt it is a 1/4 mile from the metro station [[M. Street and Half, S.E.) to inside the ball park.

OTOH, it is probably more than an 1/8th of a mile. The typical adult should be able to walk 1/8 mile is 2 or 3 minutes. Anyone who has ever walked from the subway to the centerfield gate knows it isn't a short 3 minute walk...

Nationals Park is buffered by parking garages. So the 10 story buildings are STILL much further away from Nationals Park than the one building [[RIP) was to the Little Caesars Arena.

I can check with someone who might know if DHS had any say in the layout of the development around Nationals Park.

BTW, folks, Remember what you learned in high school: something to the effect that not all blocks are created equal.

Looking at Google map and looking at K, L, M, N, etc. one finds that the blocks from M to N and N to O are actually twice as long as the block from K to L and L to M.

BTW, one end of the Metro subway station is at 1/2 and M [[not marked on the map). The other exit is marked).

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Na...!4d-77.0074329

BTW, I will be in downtown today so I'll take a look. If it weren't raining I'd walk it and time it with a stop watch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emu steve

BTW, folks, Remember what you learned in high school: something to the effect that not all blocks are created equal.

Looking at Google map and looking at K, L, M, N, etc. one finds that the blocks from M to N and N to O are actually twice as long as the block from K to L and L to M.

BTW, one end of the Metro subway station is at 1/2 and M [[not marked on the map). The other exit is marked).

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Na...!4d-77.0074329

BTW, I will be in downtown today so I'll take a look. If it weren't raining I'd walk it and time it with a stop watch.

---

Now, there is also a 10ish story building currently going up across the street from the south entrance of Nats Park. No parking garages act as a buffer there. Instead, it's just the entrance steps and a stairwell to the left of the steps. You can google 95 Potomac Ave SE and the MRP blue banners on that fence across from the park are where the building is. You can also see the stands above the red Nationals Park sign. Judge for yourself how that compares with ilitch's new arena and the Park Avenue Hotel.

Oh, and I just used mapmywalk and from the 1/2 Street Metro turnstile to the centerfield gate on M Street, it is 0.11 miles and took me 2 minutes 15 seconds. That was at a leisurely pace with a laptop bag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dbc

Now, there is also a 10ish story building currently going up across the street from the south entrance of Nats Park. No parking garages act as a buffer there. Instead, it's just the entrance steps and a stairwell to the left of the steps. You can google 95 Potomac Ave SE and the MRP blue banners on that fence across from the park are where the building is. You can also see the stands above the red Nationals Park sign. Judge for yourself how that compares with ilitch's new arena and the Park Avenue Hotel.

Oh, and I just used mapmywalk and from the 1/2 Street Metro turnstile to the centerfield gate on M Street, it is 0.11 miles and took me 2 minutes 15 seconds. That was at a leisurely pace with a laptop bag.

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You are correct. I was by yesterday with car [[didn't walk it), but it is 1/8 of a mile [[sometimes when folks walk after being up 18 hours they think distances are much longer than they are).

I DID take photos from my car and there appears to be a say 100 yard buffer around the stadium, mostly those parking garages. S. Capitol is a buffer to the west and Potomac Ave. to the south.

The question of 'how close is too close' is not something I would know. [[I do know close counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, but don't know about how DHS feels about 'close'.).

I do know someone in the media who might know the answer to these questions. I e-mailed her.

P.S. w/out trying to start another flame war, could DHS have recommend BOTH buildings come down? I don't consider Park Ave. a buffer, at all... [[compare it to say S. Capitol or Potomac Ave on Google Maps).

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Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Count me in among the fans of the Ilitches. Like all big companies, LC has had its ups and downs, but they're a solid, profitable company, with lots of area employees and thousands of mostly first-time small business owners as franchisees. And flop ideas? Remember the Edsel? The McDLT? New Coke? Businesses try new things. Some work, some don't.

On the sports front, the Ilitches have mostly been willing to pony up the money to field good teams [[obviously 1995-2005 was an austerity period for the Tigers). Doesn't always pan out, but that's true of all sports teams. Say what you want about Comerica Park, it is a better [[if less nostalgic) place to watch a ballgame than Tiger Stadium, and it is integrated into downtown. Same will be true of the LC Arena.

As for property, yes he owns a lot of things that have yet to be restored or land yet to be developed. But a lot is now or about to be starting soon. For the first time in his decades downtown, market conditions are starting to warrant doing the work.

Olympia is far from perfect. But they are good corporate citizens. And they have done more for the city than anyone on this website. And they accept the hate and scorn with a smile.

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What I don't understand is the constant complaining about the people that are putting real money into this city. People like Gilbert and Rodger Penske. What do you think the city would be like if these investments did not happen?
In a word, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

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Originally Posted by dguy4evr

What I don't understand is the constant complaining about the people that are putting real money into this city. People like Gilbert and Rodger Penske. What do you think the city would be like if these investments did not happen?
In a word, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

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Neither do I. Many decisions made by Gilbert, Penske, Ilitch, et. al. are not to my liking. But they clearly love Detroit.

Like in politics today, here nobody accepts good enough. Compromise? No way. I want exactly what I want or I'm gonna whine.

Sure, Ilitch blew it with the Madison-Lennox. He is a product of the 50s and 60s. During his formative years the way to deal with cities was thought to be to improve the physical infrastructure. Knock down entire neighborhoods and replace them with new. New will fix the soul. Cabrini Green was no doubt well-intended. Demolition of old crap was the stock progressive policy.

I don't think Mr. I even thought about the M-L. Parking wasn't the goal. It was just an old building. And old was bad. Or so was the progressive mantra before global warming.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Neither do I. Many decisions made by Gilbert, Penske, Ilitch, et. al. are not to my liking. But they clearly love Detroit.

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I'm sure Ilitch loves Detroit. Who wouldn't after all Detroit's done for him?

But don't lump Gilbert and Penske with Ilitch. They deserve better company. For the results of his speculative "investments" in Detroit -- the vast swaths he has gobbled and left empty for potential arena sites -- he belongs with Moroun, Apostolopoulos, Sachs, et al..

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Like in politics today, here nobody accepts good enough. Compromise? No way. I want exactly what I want or I'm gonna whine.

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The Ilitch critics are eager for Detroit to improve. Of course there are multiple routes toward that goal. But with decades of his urban interventions to judge him by, we are correct to be skeptical of his. Especially with so many indications the path Ilitch entices us to follow today will lead to a similar place as before. The only unwillingness to compromise I hear is about refusing to be taken for fools again.

His loudest critics complain about the vast tracts of historic, irreplaceable, often beautiful architecture in Detroit Ilitch has demolished or left to rot. They bemoan his destruction of so many smaller blocks with smaller spaces designed to support mixed uses and lively sidewalks where smaller businesses can more easily get their start. And they oppose the single-use superblocks and seas of parking lots he has put in their stead. Those are exactly opposite the dense, diverse, walkable urban fabric so many of his critics support.

Count me among them. We lack the capital to effect an impact even remotely like he can. But our interest is in a healthy city, not in extracting wealth. I daresay we love Detroit more.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Sure, Ilitch blew it with the Madison-Lennox. He is a product of the 50s and 60s. During his formative years the way to deal with cities was thought to be to improve the physical infrastructure. Knock down entire neighborhoods and replace them with new. New will fix the soul. Cabrini Green was no doubt well-intended. Demolition of old crap was the stock progressive policy.

I don't think Mr. I even thought about the M-L. Parking wasn't the goal. It was just an old building. And old was bad. Or so was the progressive mantra before global warming.

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Someone who uses a word as a pejorative is unqualified to provide an unbiased definition of a word. That's how you use "progressive". Besides, what's progressive or not is as subjective as what's liberal or conservative, or spicy or bland. It's relative, a matter of opinion, and moreover, a loaded term. It's a distraction.

The facts are the 50's and 60's "slum clearance" "urban renewal" programs that destroyed so much of our urban fabric were the result of federal initiatives whose advocates The National Housing Institute says were "typically downtown businesses, developers, banks, major daily newspapers, big-city mayors and construction unions – what John Mollenkopf would later call the 'growth coalition' and Harvey Molotch would label the 'growth machine.' Most planners and architects at the time joined the urban renewal chorus. It was, after all, their bread and butter."

http://nhi.org/online/issues/146/janejacobslegacy.html

Jane Jacobs published "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" in 1961. It was a visionary critique of the top-down "slum clearance" programs and eloquently presented rehabilitation as a far superior approach. It became required reading in planning and urban studies programs. It has been profoundly influential since.

Whatever your definition of "progressive" it's no fit for Ilitch's version of urban development. The negative consequences of the demolition approach have been discussed for more than half a century. Surely he's aware of them. Do you really think he's looking out for Detroit in the first place? A misguided altruist? Come on.

If the area around the arena becomes anything resembling what he entices us to expect in his PR material I'll be happily blown away by surprise. If it comes directly from Olympia's investment even more. But he will still have so many neglected treasures and fallow acres outside the district to address.

Curbed recently published an excellent commemoration celebrating Jane Jacobs:

http://www.curbed.com/2016/5/4/11583...-jacobs-legacy

Included in that is an awesome one-page illustrated guide to her philosophy, by James Gulliver Hancock. It's fun to read, in clear terms:

http://www.curbed.com/2016/5/4/11582...lliver-hancock

Here is the National Housing Institute's great summary of her legacy, again:

http://nhi.org/online/issues/146/janejacobslegacy.html

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Originally Posted by Bigdd

I think you mean "devolves".

And it is not ok that as a result of lack of education, and fools misusing words that 2 very different words now mean the same thing to some people.

So now there's no word for destroying 1/10 of something?

We'll have no word for a baby goat? No word to infer legal obligation?

We'll need to talk in very long sentences filled with 3 letter words because no one can actually speak English?

TV is all done at a 6th grade education level,.. so even idiots can enjoy it. And the average TV broadcaster has an education level not much above that.

Are we to allow them to be the ultimate determiners of language? Does the teenage valet at your local mall get to determine the car you drive?

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Why is it that some people seem to hover around these websites and try to impress everyone with their vast fountain of proper usage and grammar?
I don't have a college degree, so I can't hold my own with some of you who try to impress with their knowledge of the English language. However, I am able to get the gist of most of these threads that are posted. What I do know is if I wish to post a thread or reply that is not in danger of being picked apart by the pseudo English professors I will enroll in some college courses and be done with it. That said, I will be content to post my replies using my limited knowledge of the English language and hope they will convey what I wish to say.

I hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, this was just meant to convey an opinion.

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Originally Posted by bust;505807... Someone who uses a word as a pejorative is unqualified to provide an unbiased definition of a word. That's how you use "progressive". Besides, what's progressive or not is as subjective as what's liberal or conservative, or spicy or bland. It's relative, a matter of opinion, and moreover, a loaded term. It's a distraction.

The facts are the 50's and 60's "slum clearance" "urban renewal" programs that destroyed so much of our urban fabric were the result of federal initiatives whose advocates The [URL="http://nhi.org/"

National Housing Institute[/URL] says were "typically downtown businesses, developers, banks, major daily newspapers, big-city mayors and construction unions – what John Mollenkopf would later call the 'growth coalition' and Harvey Molotch would label the 'growth machine.' Most planners and architects at the time joined the urban renewal chorus. It was, after all, their bread and butter."...snip sorry jane...

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You are right to call me out on pejoratives, but wrong about the roots of urban renewal. It was a coalition, to be sure. But it had moral underpinnings from the left. Businessmen were not in the business of creating Model Cities. They just wanted old gone. I don't think most developers thought Cabrini Green or Brewster Projects were a good ideas.

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Originally Posted by dguy4evr

Why is it that some people seem to hover around these websites and try to impress everyone with their vast fountain of proper usage and grammar?
I don't have a college degree, so I can't hold my own with some of you who try to impress with their knowledge of the English language. However, I am able to get the gist of most of these threads that are posted. What I do know is if I wish to post a thread or reply that is not in danger of being picked apart by the pseudo English professors I will enroll in some college courses and be done with it. That said, I will be content to post my replies using my limited knowledge of the English language and hope they will convey what I wish to say.

I hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, this was just meant to convey an opinion.

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Then you'll be happy to know it wasn't me that started this. I saw it,.. and let it go.

But then another poster on here got into the grammar bit,... and reprimanded another poster [["pejorative alert,.. etc"),.. and even HE got the word wrong,.. so I typed that [[Figuring a grammar correcter type would appreciate that sort of thing,.. and he did,.. typing a funny reply).

You should feel free to misuse words all you like,. and we'll do our best to figure out what you meant.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't think most developers thought Cabrini Green or Brewster Projects were a good ideas.

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I don't know about that. The "projects", and slum renewal in general, were supported by both progressives and business interests. It was basically the consensus among decision makers of the time.

And, while I agree that urban renewal generally sucked, I think we're painting too broad a brush. The slums that were demolished were pretty awful, and often were firetraps and didn't have full indoor plumbing. The U.S. still had pretty horrific slums prior to urban renewal, it doesn't any more [[at least not in the classic sense of tumbledown cold water tenements).

The replacement housing was modern, spacious, well-built, with parks and schools and open space. Yeah, it went to hell very fast, but much of that was due to stupid tenancy preference rules, lack of maintenance funds, and white flight.

Public housing in NYC, even today, is pretty decent. They have generally maintained the system, and suffered less middle class flight. The housing shortage means that middle class households live in public housing. Not sure if the city would have been better off just keeping tumbledown slums.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

You are right to call me out on pejoratives, but wrong about the roots of urban renewal. It was a coalition, to be sure. But it had moral underpinnings from the left. Businessmen were not in the business of creating Model Cities. They just wanted old gone. I don't think most developers thought Cabrini Green or Brewster Projects were a good ideas.

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Not every thread you comment in requires partisan comments and bickering. Nobody doubts your conservatism, ok?

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't know about that. The "projects", and slum renewal in general, were supported by both progressives and business interests. It was basically the consensus among decision makers of the time.

And, while I agree that urban renewal generally sucked, I think we're painting too broad a brush. The slums that were demolished were pretty awful, and often were firetraps and didn't have full indoor plumbing. The U.S. still had pretty horrific slums prior to urban renewal, it doesn't any more [[at least not in the classic sense of tumbledown cold water tenements).

The replacement housing was modern, spacious, well-built, with parks and schools and open space. Yeah, it went to hell very fast, but much of that was due to stupid tenancy preference rules, lack of maintenance funds, and white flight.

Public housing in NYC, even today, is pretty decent. They have generally maintained the system, and suffered less middle class flight. The housing shortage means that middle class households live in public housing. Not sure if the city would have been better off just keeping tumbledown slums.

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My family lived in the Parkside Projects in the 50's and they were very well built with a great recreation building, swimming pool, ice rink, horseshoe pits, and a beautiful park. I loved living there.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't know about that. The "projects", and slum renewal in general, were supported by both progressives and business interests. It was basically the consensus among decision makers of the time.

And, while I agree that urban renewal generally sucked, I think we're painting too broad a brush. The slums that were demolished were pretty awful, and often were firetraps and didn't have full indoor plumbing. The U.S. still had pretty horrific slums prior to urban renewal, it doesn't any more [[at least not in the classic sense of tumbledown cold water tenements).

The replacement housing was modern, spacious, well-built, with parks and schools and open space. Yeah, it went to hell very fast, but much of that was due to stupid tenancy preference rules, lack of maintenance funds, and white flight.

Public housing in NYC, even today, is pretty decent. They have generally maintained the system, and suffered less middle class flight. The housing shortage means that middle class households live in public housing. Not sure if the city would have been better off just keeping tumbledown slums.

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I live on a block of 130 year old former boardinghouses for transients that have been rehabilitated and renovated and make for a great neighborhood today. The neighborhoods in Detroit that provided the closest analogue were among the ones "urban renewal" destroyed. Meanwhile, I once studied the history and design of public and private middle- and lower- income housing initiatives. So many failures, but some are indeed still good places to live today. The factors that led to their various outcomes were a subject I really got into, and the final paper I wrote about that was heavily over-researched and much longer than required, delivered very late.

This would be a really interesting discussion to continue when we're not hijacking Enduro's Ilitch Flop thread. :p

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Originally Posted by bust

This would be a really interesting discussion to continue when we're not hijacking Enduro's Ilitch Flop thread. :p

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It's all good. Perhaps we've exhausted the failures of Mr. I? He is a billionaire after all.

And I'm sure District Detroit will be peppered with some real stinkers and we can revisit the original topic.

OK, so sliding back to the tread... how much do we blame Ilitch as an individual -- and how much do we blame the government? Parking lots without required amenities? Stadiums & arena with taxpayer money? Is city hall at all to blame? Or is is all Ilitch.

Everyone gets some blame.... even Wayne County for the Hotel and Liquor by the glass tax. And with Ford Field we can throw the State into the mix.... for raiding the Michigan Stategic Fund.