Can it really be all that hard?
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Can it really be all that hard?
I opened this thread expecting some barely-coherent drivel about shopping and trains. Instead, I got...this. Thanks for the laugh. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by detmich
Several Mayors, may have had a hand Detroits demise. Is their city council like ours?
We've got the corruption part down well, but the 'making it work' part seems to be a stumbling block.
I think more needs to be kept in-house instead of being spent with companies from Texas or spread around traveling and tapping Fed tail.
Yes, Chicago actually has people who want to cooperate wit heach other.Quote:
Originally Posted by detmich
And Chicago has an actual economy. Based on more than one industry.
And why can't I have a body like Raquel Welch?Quote:
Originally Posted by detmich
Yes, because Chicago is off a lake...Quote:
Originally Posted by detmich
Let's see. Unaffordable real estate. $400 annually to park your car in front of your house. Instant $60 tickets for not displaying visitors pass when parking at friends house. 10.5% sales tax. Horrible traffic. Trash everywhere [[literally). And then there is that whole dirty little secret that the world, including Chicago's own politicians, forget about so easily: the South Side.
I've seriously considered Chicago, and after spending plenty of time there working and playing, I'll pass and take my own little piece of paradise in Hamsandwich.
I left after only one month for those reasons. And don't forget the rudeness. I hate that city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
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Originally Posted by LodgeDodger
you dont?
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
are you joking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
No. And about which part?
When comparing Chicago and Detroit, people always make the comparison that Chicago is more diverse economically than Detroit. What I want to know is, besides the merchantile exchange, what industries does Chicago have that Detroit [[really metro Detroit) doesn't?
Unaffordable real-estate? Most of it is reasonable for a large midwest city. When you weight the number amenities and establishments with rent, you are getting a deal.
One ordinance that recently passed that I do really like is the one that requires all new establishments with a liquor license to also sell food. As a result, most of these establishments compete for your business by running specials every single day, and it's not always standard "bar-fare." When I'm working there, I can hit a different place every night and get decent food for cheap.
Sadly, there are no "bar and grills" left in Hamtown.
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Originally Posted by royce
Besides a vibrant bustling 24 hr a day city..........nothing
I don't disagree with hamtragedy. But lets face it for those seeking a city experience where the city is not moribund Chicago is the obvious choice for midwesterners.
chicago ain't all great, as i've said before. as a native of chicagoland, i have some of the same problems with the city others do. there is an arrogance people there display that is totally unwarranted, which results in much ruder behavior than I ever experienced in the D or NYC, including from people who are supposedly there to help visitors. I have long thought the arrogance/rudeness stems from an inferiority complex because ... it ain't new york. [[last time a person in the hospitality industry was rude to me, I did unleash my "new york junior" comment).Quote:
Originally Posted by 48302
people think Chicago is integrated, but go uptown on the el and see how many brown faces there are.
Why can't an avocado taste more like a nectarine?
It sounds a lot like Detroiters & how they feel about Chicago. To make us feel better about Detroit's insecurities, we try to put down Chicago & their accomplishments every chance we get [[because we're bitter of how far Detroit has fallen, yet Chicago failed to do so). That's pretty much why every big project or event we muster up, Detroiters try to hype it up like we're going to be another Chicago. That's also why we tried to imitated their El-Train by constructing the rather inferior People Mover.Quote:
Originally Posted by rb336
hmm...well that explains the purpose of this thread in a nutshell...
I think Detroit has a bad image problem because it doesn't have enough police, whether real or percieved, and that's why Chicago is perceived as better by outsiders. Double the police budget. Bring back police walking a random beat to any area preceived as unsafe. Have them pickup homeless people and panhandlers and take them to the shelter or throw them in jail if they're difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by detmich
I remember former NYC Mayor Guliani talking on Larry King and talking about how he fixed up NYC when he had the police write up tickets for all the small things like J-walking, throwing a candy wrapper on the sidewalk, and anything minor so people had respect for the more serious laws and it really cleaned up Manhattan.
I had a friend visit downtown Chicago a year ago. He stopped his car near a bank in downtown to take a picture. Within half a minute, a cop pulls up and tells him he can't stop near a bank and he has to move. That's hardcore. But, those cities feel safer I guess and maybe that's why those cities work so much better.
But then again, when Detroit is bankrupt, you can't increase the police budget unless all those tickets are paying for it.
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Originally Posted by KOMPOST
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck COULD chuck wood?
I don't want Detroit to be like Chicago. Detroit needs to be... Detroit.
Learned awhile ago, as I used to be one of those "Detroit needs to be like "X" people, that if you want Chicago/New York/Seattle move there. Seriously. Leave. You WILL be happier than trying to slog it out here a decade and burn out like so many friends after a goal that won't happen. Even when Detroit gets the mass transit system, it still won't be those cities. All my friends who fell in love with another city and moved, they don't complain about X. It's just the course of life. If you don't fall in love, that's AOK too!
I think it's excellent to have the opportunity to see if you really like a city - or if Detroit really is what makes you happy. Everyone should take a risk like Hamtragedy and open their experience, even if you don't like it. I've done stints in New York, Los Angeles, but not Chicago [[but have gone more than a few times on long-term business). For me? If you said I had to move to another region, I'd go to Toronto, eh. That's my mistress to Detroit. Busy in places like New York, clean for the most part, mostly polite, lots of international influence, lots of multi-use, lots of creatives, funky neighborhoods and a functional mass transit system.
The other side of this point is that Detroit has it's own culture and it needs to be accounted for. Transposing Chicago or New York on Detroit is not a good fit. For instance, the reality is, we're a car culture. Our shoppers like walkable areas, but they will not walk more than a block to go anywhere and it's going to be decades before they change in enough numbers to make it work. We're also ethnically and racially different than those cities and shouldn't be forgotten as that DOES have something to bear with the decisions made and preferences chosen. All these things aren't bad, they are what they are.
Even with mass transit, mass transit is not going to be the "nirvana" everyone says it will - it will be awesome, it will be great for access to jobs, it will bring up property values, it will help the poor get to work and life themselves out - but it won't change our culture like so many here think it will.
You know what I like about Chicago? It has viable, identifiable, bona fide neighborhoods. You can live on any number of residential sidestreets, in just about any section of town in the city proper, and you can walk to the nearest main road, turn in either direction, and find fast food, slow food, liquor, clothing, dry goods, hardware, groceries, and a church.
Point me to anywhere in Detroit where you can do this.
In order to compete with Detroit, Chicago needs more casinos and car factories. It also needs to get a better hot dog. Who puts celery salt and tomato wedges on a hot dog? They also need more stores like John King, and maybe something like an Eastern Market.
1. Because Detroit was not planned on a grid.Quote:
Originally Posted by detmich
2. Because Detroit was planned at a 1/3 the density of Chicago and now is 1/6th.
3. Because the State of IL cares about having a thriving major city and MI doesn't.
4. Because Chicago embraced capitalism and Detroit's socialist ideals get f*d by it.
5. Because Detroit doesn't cater to the main stream.
6. Because Detroit doesn't want to be like Chicago.
Detroit is arguably the most unique and interesting city in the world. We shouldn't want to be more like Chicago, we should focus on our assets and promote them properly instead of trying to be something we're not. Sure, our leaders could learn a thing or two from Chicago and probably every other major city in the world, but the region could learn something about knowing more about their city then just what's on the 10oclock news..
Mexicantown, and to some extent Corktown, Midtown, and 7mile/livernois area. It goes back to density.Quote:
Originally Posted by CornBot
And even Chicago has neighborhoods with density/housing stock like East English Village, Morningside, NE Detroit and far NW Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by lo_to_d
What I want to know is why Detroit can't be more like MPS? We have lots of areas just ripe for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_Ruins_Park
I don't want Detroit to be Chicago, but I do want Detroit to learn some lessons from Chicago. For instance, the road to recovery does not entail demolishing every historical structure that can't be renovated in the next ten minutes. Chicago knows this. Detroit doesn't.
Chicago also knows that in order to have a functioning city core, you need a functioning mass transit system. [[Detroit does not know this yet either.) But Chicago isn't the only city that has learned these lessons; plenty of other cities know these things too. Look at Boston, NYC, D.C., etc. They all follow a basic set of rules that shouldn't be compromised when you are trying to operate a large, relatively dense city. In the years since Detroit has stopped following those rules, we have only seen the population density of the city plummet.
Because our criminals running the city are generally less inetlligent than the criminals running Chicago. If Detroit wants to get better, they need to elect smarter criminals, Given the illiteracy rate in the city, that could be hard to do.
Detroitplanner, do Happy's Pizzas count? A few opened on the southside. I'm hoping they eventually make their way up to the south loop and I'll be satisfied.
Kelly's? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
See Companies based within the City of Chicago... below are companies based out of Chicago Suburbs.
I am from Southfield and I've been in Chicago since 1998. Some random thoughts as I am at work
1) Somebody mentioned the dirty little secret of the South Side and the other secret is the West Side
2) Chicago has done the right thing with its waterfront since the early 1900s. Chicago has water-->public access--->streets--->private property. Detroit has water-->private property--->streets---> more private property. A few parks, the river walk and Hart Plaza are mixed in, but it makes a difference. Mayor Daley wants the entire waterfront to be public access. The only major piece that obstructs that today is McCormick Place and Daley plans to get rid of that and use the new McCormick place.
3) I read somewhere that there's a higher number of Fortune 500 Companies with either their HQ or a regional office in Chicago than in any other city in the world. That's industrial diversity.
4) I drive throughout Chicago and I see taverns in the middle of neighborhoods and business districts that are set up just like the shops at Livernois N of 7 Mile [[for example), but the stores on Livernois can't thrive. There are some things in Detroit that don't even need to be built; people just need to start going there.
5) There is a wide swath on the South Side bordered by 35th, Lake Shore Drive, 71st and I-94 and there is only a Treasure Island in that area. There is a Jewel on 35th, Dominicks on 71st, a few Centrella/Aldi/Save-A-Lots in the middle and that's it. On the other hand there is an equally sized area up north of Belmont, Western, Howard and Lake Shore Drive that contains 30 Jewel/Dominicks grocery stores. Nobody ever talks about that in Chicago.
6) Chicagoans in Lincoln Park have the same prejudices against the South & West sides as suburban Detroiters have against Detroit. It's just that Chicagoans all live in the same city.
7) Public transportation makes a difference.
8) There are clowns and crooks on Chicago's city council, but the difference between Detroit and Chicago is that the clowns and crooks in Detroit run the show.
Even though they moved to Schaumburg [[a Chicago suburb), K-Mart did buy Sears. So...yeah!
But who received the corporate tax & an employment gain in the end?Quote:
Originally Posted by dtowncitylover
So...no! :rolleyes:
If only the lack of "cop safety" syndrome is the sole reason behind Detroit's problems. But it's not that cut n dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Most of the posters make valid points when addressing Detroit's current conditions; some of those compare and contrast to other cities are valid.
Economy, riots, crime, politics, lack of mass transit are a few of the many elements that help make and break a city. Speaking of crime, crime doesn't force a large part of it's population to exodus elsewhere. While crime will force many out, it's the lack of economics that force many. Living in the Cali. Bay area, crime is here and frequent more than some on here and off of here may think. Don't let stats fool you, you have to see it for yourself and the politicians have ways of covering up negative images if the money is right.
San Francisco is a beautiful city, but it can be a very dangerous city and in many ways is more like NYC than Chicago is. That being said, even with the crime and even larger homeless population than Detroit, weather [[gets cold as hell here too) tourist attraction and other things keep it going. Even with this bad recession, San Francisco attract tourist. Same applies to Chicago. Overall, it's the politics in Detroit and metro Detroit that dictate how Detroit operates.
I see these circular conversations and arguments continue about Detroit's demise on here; many try to use one element vs several. Until people stop blaming one thing and look at the entire picture, the entire metro will continue to go in circles too.
Damn dove I havent seen you in many moons, how the life on the left coast? BTWI fully agree with this statement here and if I dare say....should we ever get beyond the bullshit poilitics of the REGION, then the rest of those issues plaguing us may actually begin to get taken care of.Quote:
Overall, it's the politics in Detroit and metro Detroit that dictate how Detroit operates.
Hi Stylin. Good to see you brotha. Life is good. Even during this recession, I'm maintaining. It's not easy all of the time, but there are people far worse. School is good; I'm almost out. Thank God. Lol. Just been shooting for my portfolio [[Fashion and Illustration photography major)Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin
To answer the question posed in the thread title, because there is no way any true Detroiter would ever put up with having to stop every tenth of a mile on the freeway to throw 35 cents into another tollbooth, that's why. The tollgates would be demolished beyond all hope of repair within 5 minutes of installation.
Doubt it. If the conditions were different, they would, but Detroit doesn't have that type of environment to allow or dictate that. Chicago is a giant metro with a lot going on; Detroit is the opposite. Toll is the least of Detroit's issues on the totem poll. Perhaps my sarcastic meter is not working.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
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Originally Posted by dove-7
Well let a brotha know when you need a website then.....
SOME neighborhoods in Chicago you can do this. Others will have you jacked in a blink of an eye. Except for "slow food', there are neighborhoods you can get that in D. Only the "big 5" though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CornBot
This is what politicians count on. People want quick fixes to problems that might not have quick fixes and politicians exploit that with promises of simple solutions. Our leaders will continue to offer band-aids for bullet wounds as long as we continue to be appeased by these offers.Quote:
Originally Posted by dove-7
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Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement
That is really due to a politically ignorant populace regionwide
I already have one. I also have a back ground in graphic and website design. I make money doing it on the side and currently working on a client's website. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin
But I might need your help on a php mysql website that I'm working on for a different project. Are you able to do any php mysql programming?
hamtramck versus Chicago....Quote:
Originally Posted by 48302
and hamtramck wins...
i guess i thought that was a joke.....sorry.
please crosspost to the minor league site for further satire.
That's unfortunate. Because the Detroit area should probably seriously look at tolls as a way to help maintain the crumbling roads.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
I may not have been explicit enough in my basic point: the reason I say Detroit would never allow it is because Detroit is the car-centered motor city. Any plan for toll gates a la Chicago would fail for the same reason every and all toll-ANYTHING having to do with roads and driving would fail. Toll roads, even access-limited HOV lanes, mass transit, you name it. The average Detroiter regards unencumbered access to the highways a Constitutional right, not something anyone should have the ability to restrict and impede the way tollgates do. Not that I say there's anything wrong with that - I actually still agree wholeheartedly, even as an ex-Detroiter. I'll give up my car the day they pluck the keys from my cold, dead fingers, and the green-earth environmentalists who would try to make me feel guilty about it can all just cough and drop dead. [[And no, I am not being sarcastic).Quote:
Originally Posted by dove-7
Now before you make me out to be some kind of polluting ogre with a million-square-mile carbon footprint, there's more. I actually currently live only 2 miles from work and in a year round sunny warm weather climate and have the luxury of being able to bicycle to and from work almost every day. But I am doing that by choice and because I enjoy it, not out of any sense of obligation to the Al Gore Save The Whales crowd, and if my circumstances ever changed that might also very well change. NO ONE should be beholden to an inconvenient bus schedule or hoops and hurdles if their preference is to own and drive their own vehicle independently, as long as they are of sufficient mental and physical health to be able do so safely.
...or the State of Michigan should look at other places to cut fat from the budget so as to be able to afford the necessary repairs to crumbling roads. Many states with lower tax rates than Michigan can do it. Michigan has no excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Chicago is a good city, but certainly isn't first-rate.
It's crappy compared to NYC, London or other first-tier cities, and I would rank it domestically behind San Francisco, LA and Washington, DC.
It leads the nation in murders, has lost a half-million people, and has very mediocre transit. On the positive side, it has a thriving core, the nice lakefront and is a big post-collegiate magnet.
Personally, I prefer metro Detroit, which is in the beautiful state of MI [[IL has to be among the worst states in the union), and has a higher quality of life [[cheaper, lower taxes, and better location) than Chicagoland.
I understood your point, but it's irrelevant to the actual topic. Tolls being part of the equation is like having a piece of wheat bread inside of a loaf of white wonder bread.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
Hell, we have tolls here, but it's not the make or break thing that defines the Bay area. It's just part of the equation. If anything, a lack of transit is more relevant than Toll. But like I had said in my initial post, there are several things that are lacking in Detroit as well as preventing Detroit from growing; many of those examples have been posted by the posters in this thread. Again, toll fees is the lowest on the poll. And when you look at Chicago, they have many transportation resources and there is a reason for those Tolls too.
Is it about being beholden to a bad transit or just the freedom have a car? That's not the point of transit, the point is having it because it's needed and it's there for just in case you needed. Not some obligation. Not everyone can afford a car; I like my car too, but I also like that I can park my car and get on the subway and head to school when I need to do that, or don't feel like being stuck in mad traffic. Plus transit helps to balance out some of the traffic too.
And or they can both fix roads and find other transit alternatives. Car pools, transit bus system. A real transit system and not some isolated transit that works solely in one city. Politics in Michigan is your primary handicap, always have and far as I'm concerned, always will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
If I had to choose a city worth modeling after, I'd go for Toronto! :)
I would say Chicago and Detroit both have their own advantages and disadvantages depending on what one's priorities are. Certainly, if one is the type who primarily values downtown urban shopping and culture, Chicago wins, hands down. But if one wants things other than a vibrant downtown - i.e. places to go on day trips and family vacations - the dull farm fields of Illinois are absolutely no comparison for all the tourist opportunities of Michigan. At least in the good summer months!
Well I say the vast majority of people in Southeast Michigan will not use public transportation. Ergo, investment on mass transit will simply be a waste of money that would be better spent on road repair. Even here in metro Phoenix where I live that is the case. We have light rail that costs money on a per-rider basis that would much better have been spent on road construction.Quote:
Originally Posted by dove-7
Sometimes preference doesn't always equate to facts. Yes it's true that Chicago has crime, but so do the other cities that you posted. DC is just as bad or worse on a crime level. BUT, Chicago has an excellent transit system. Is it the best? No, but none of them are perfect, but beats the shit out of Detroit and metro isolated transit. The last time that I was in the metro area, I wanted to head to the auto show. That wasn't possible due me not having my car there and a lack of transit system that I have here and can hit the auto show anytime that I want, including heading to metro areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by crawford
Well there is a reason for that and it's common sense, the major city isn't the heart of the economy anymore, so why would the metro need it? But with the cost of gas and oil prices a transit is a necessity. Plus, metro Detroit has been conditioned not to depend on mass transit. If it were there, I'd wager that they'd use it. But like I have already pointed out, Detroit isn't heart of the economy which would justify having a transit. As far as roads, they repair those roads every year; road repair isn't the major solution to heavy traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
We're currently on strike here with the Bart subway, because of foolish Union workers wanting more during bad times and now it's just going to make things worse because the cars drivers and those that don't drive their cars is going to make traffic a nightmare starting next Monday. I never thought that I'd be against Unions, but they picked the worse time to not want to compromise when there isn't room to really debate.
And that is yet another reason against it - perhaps even the strongest. It's one thing for unions to shut down public schools [[I don't have kids) or inflate the cost of domestic automobiles [[I buy nothing but foreign) but there is NO WAY my transportation is ever going to depend on a union.Quote:
Originally Posted by dove-7
You know how much a gallon of gas is in Windsor or Toronto is right now? A dollar a litre or $3.80 a gallon and Canada is an exporter of oil. You're paying more than a buck difference and exchange is around 8% right now. A gallon of milk at Walmart is over $4.00 in Canada. You hire someone to prepare your taxes, you pay a services tax of 5%, which is being raised to 13% next fall. Liquor tax is higher, tobacco tax is higher, property taxes are higher, and prepared to get raped on income taxes. Do you really want to model Detroit after that?Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
Or Chicagoans could just drive the 40 miles to Michigan, take advantage of all Michigan has to offer, then drive back to their vibrant urban thriving paradise.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
You're referring to the murder capital of America as a "vibrant urban thriving paradise"? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Chicago has some very successful neighborhoods and a great core, but most of Chicago is indistinguishable from most of Detroit. The South and West Sides [[70% of the city) are the same as Detroit.
And the suburbs are almost exactly the same. If anything, I would go with Detroit's burbs as somewhat better.
And Detroit is much closer than Chicago for all that Michigan has to offer. Chicago is more than 40 miles from Michigan, and the scenic parts of MI are a long ways away.
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Originally Posted by dove-7
I am somewhat proficient at it. It all depends on the scope of it. I am ssuming since you mentioned mysql that this is a database driven site?
In Order for Detroit to be like Chicago, it have to these requirements:
1. More land expansions
2. More meat and farming manufacturing and merchantilism.
3. More glass covered skyscapers filled with booming New Yorkesque businesses.
4. More media studios in downtown buildings.
6. More condos and townhouses in Downtown.
7. More Downtown retail
8. More ethnic neighborhoods
9. A lack of vacant and abandon buildings
10. A diversed city workforce
Detroit will NEVER be like Chicago. It will remain mostly black and 10,000 times more corrupt than any other city in the U.S.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but that was sarcasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by crawford
Still, the point is that Chicago isn't prohibitively farther from Michigan's assets than Detroit. They are closer to many of the resort towns on the west side of the state than Detroit.
And I'm not disputing that there are many parts of Chicago that look like Detroit, since I've said that same thing many times on here before. [[Personally, I think Chicago is as much Detroit as it is New York.) But there are no parts of Detroit that look like the most recognizable parts of Chicago.
But again, I don't want Detroit to be Chicago, I want Detroit to be Detroit. I think Detroit can be as good of a city as Chicago, or even better, if it learned some lessons from Chicago. There is room for two bustling cities in the Midwest.
I also think Detroit's history is more interesting than Chicago's, and it's history is more mainstream amongst Americans and other westerners [[even if Americans do currently view Chicago more favorably). Most people I meet who aren't from Detroit are dumbfounded as to why the city doesn't capitalize on this more. Frankly, I'm dumbfounded by it too. I know several people who would to come to Detroit just to see where Motown was born, and to see the neighborhoods where those singers lived.
Tangent: Tourism in New York is something like a $16bn per year industry. Now, Detroit wouldn't bring in that much any time soon, but I can easily see Detroit attracting a fourth of that or better. But Detroit would need a much better transit system. Tourism alone could probably pay for one to be built.
Yes, things are cheaper in Detroit, but services are lousy. It's like Detroit is nothing but the southside of Chicago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
I have to take issue with this. Chicago is overall much more dense and the most common type of residential building in the neighborhoods is the two- or three-flat. Single-family homes tend to be late 19th-century "workers' cottages" that have been remodeled/expanded, or postwar Cape Cods and raised ranches. Most of the housing stock, by far, is brick, not frame. It is also generally older -- there are lots of Victorian-era buildings from the 1880s to about 1910 [[most of Detroit's residential housing is post-1915 with a lot from the '20s). The average residential neighborhood in Chicago looks nothing like one in Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by crawford
As for the South and West sides, they get a bad rap. Sure, Englewood or Austin are both hellholes; but Bridgeport, McKinley Park, Hyde Park and Beverly are pretty nice places to live. Then there are the slightly grittier, edgy areas like Pilsen, Canaryville, Brighton Park, Archer Heights, and Back of the Yards. They would be no more challenging to live in than many Detroit neighborhoods that people on this forum consider "OK." Chinatown is picturesque and fascinating. Bronzeville is on the rebound; so is the area around the United Center on the West Side. Chatham is a very decent area on the South Side chosen by middle class African-Americans [[as is Beverly/Morgan Park). Even dicey areas like the East Side [[which is really far south) and South Chicago have many points of interest and I would be perfectly fine exploring them during the day.
Would I walk down 63rd Street between Western and Halsted by myself at midnight? No. I have more street smarts than that. But you are painting with a broad brush. Many of the neighborhoods on Chicago's South and West sides aren't bad at all, and some are downright decent [[even though they're not overly gentrified like Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville).
And I would feel safer waiting for an L train on the Red Line at 47th in Chicago than I would waiting for a bus at Conner and Gratiot in Detroit. But maybe that's just me.
That's great that you're against it, but let's not find or use excuses to justify not wanting or needing this. Transit Unions rarely pull these type of stunts. Overall, the Bay area has excellent transit system and within that same system are cars that you can rent for car pooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMG
Cars are fine, but when you do a compare and contrast to transit vs the crappy nightmare traffic and bad roads that you mention, it's a no brainer, you look at transit as a alternative but you make sure that it's going to be effective vs. some isolated bus system that only work in one city.
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Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin
Yes, it's data base driven. Send me an email? I can give you more info. on this. I don't want to hi jack the thread.
Most corrupt city part is debatable. But, in order for the above to exist, your politics in the metro area and city has to change. That is the source of your woes. From the racial issues, corporate greed that kept your transit from becoming a reality, but is now several times smaller than what it use to be. I'm referring to General Motors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
You have the corrupt Black politicians that like to sit there and talk a good game [[city council) while their pockets get fat.
I remember when the DEMF first hit the city, it was interesting seeing all of the diversity at the event; it also opened my eyes to what Detroit use to be and what led to the current. Most of that diversity can't even relate to Detroit in the same way that people here can to Oakland, San Francisco and San Jose. There is that fear and projection that over several decades changed the dynamics of city to suburbs; you'd swear that the suburb is the major city because most have been conditioned that, "these are the places the be." Not if they're isolated from the rest of the metro.