Interesting Article On Gores and Detroit

Reading the lines [[and between the lines):

1). He wants to be a player downtown with Ilitch Holding and Gilbert.

2). Sitting out in Auburn Hills [["not being in an 'urban corridor' Dan Gilbert") is not consistent with his vision for basketball. Basketball is an urban sport. Maybe hockey can be in the distant 'burbs like downriver, but not basketball...

How does he get to be a big player downtown and how does he get the Pistons downtown [[given that he also owns the Palace)?

Detroit can never have enough folks with deep pockets...

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...city/28578363/

Yawn... wake me up when Gores actually does something, instead of talking about doing things.

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Originally Posted by 48307

Yawn... wake me up when Gores actually does something, instead of talking about doing things.

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Yeah, because he's obviously never accomplished anything in his life.

How many professional sports teams do YOU own? Stadia?!


Ok then. Keep sleeping.

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Originally Posted by Gannon

Yeah, because he's obviously never accomplished anything in his life.

How many professional sports teams do YOU own? Stadia?!


Ok then. Keep sleeping.

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Didn't he just contribute a nice sum for some worthy cause?

EDIT: http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/05/...e-isle-bridge/

well, kudos for the gift to the Jalen Rose Academy..
... i don't see the Pistons leaving AH for at least several more years, and of course they'd pretty much have to be bad seasons/low attendance.. which no one wants, right?
Joe Louis Arena can be replaced with a new Pistons stadium. Seek land just east or west of downtown.
it would be cool if Gores contributed to the blight removal initiative in the city.

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Originally Posted by Hypestyles

well, kudos for the gift to the Jalen Rose Academy..
... i don't see the Pistons leaving AH for at least several more years, and of course they'd pretty much have to be bad seasons/low attendance.. which no one wants, right?
Joe Louis Arena can be replaced with a new Pistons stadium. Seek land just east or west of downtown.
it would be cool if Gores contributed to the blight removal initiative in the city.

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??? How about the new arena at Woodward and Fisher?

One of the things about Ilitch/Gores is if they become close in terms of sports and development and could have their teams [[plural) in the same building.

I'm sure this is a story which will develop over the next 5 or 10 years...

A few years back, there was an article about Gores affiliated [[owned?) Platinum Equity buying a company and moving 500 jobs to Detroit. And AFAIK, nothing ever came of that. Hopefully he wants in on the action that Gilbert, and to a much lesser extent, Illitch are seeing with the revitalization of the core.

He lives in Beverly Hills CA, but owns a home on Grosse Isle as well.... hmmmm...

According to latest Forbes figures....
Dan Gilbert worth... $4.8 Billion
Mike Ilitch worth.... $4.2 Billion
Tom Gores worth.... $3.2 Billion

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Originally Posted by Mind field

A few years back, there was an article about Gores affiliated [[owned?) Platinum Equity buying a company and moving 500 jobs to Detroit. And AFAIK, nothing ever came of that. Hopefully he wants in on the action that Gilbert, and to a much lesser extent, Illitch are seeing with the revitalization of the core.

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I know they had something to do with Four Winns.

they ARE Gores - listed as owners of Palace Entertainment

From my understanding of how these things work, an increase in attendance from moving downtown plus any branding/experience benefits would have to be worth the loss of concessions control.

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Originally Posted by Jason

From my understanding of how these things work, an increase in attendance from moving downtown plus any branding/experience benefits would have to be worth the loss of concessions control.

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I'm speaking with limited knowledge, but Gores having a pro team in the new arena at Woodward/Fisher would mean he would have a lot more skin in the game as far as downtown/mid-town.

It would be great to have Gilbert, Ilitch Holding, and Gores all in the area.

I'm just curious what Gores' interests are.

get more creative with the hat colors/designs as well as the T-shirts. Go way beyond the "official" team colors.

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Originally Posted by Jason

From my understanding of how these things work, an increase in attendance from moving downtown plus any branding/experience benefits would have to be worth the loss of concessions control.

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You are correct. That is why it is hard for me to believe it will happen. Otherwise, it would make perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by hypestyles

get more creative with the hat colors/designs as well as the t-shirts. Go way beyond the "official" team colors.

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no teal!!!

As they say, "Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls:"

"Though he hasn't been asked yet, Detroit Pistons owner Tom Gores said he'd be open to playing some games downtown once a new arena that's part of a larger $650-million project is open for business in 2017.
Forging possible partnerships with the Ilitch family, which owns the Detroit Tigers and Red Wings and is behind the new downtown arena and entertainment district, is job one for super-agent Arn Tellem, hired by Gores last week as vice chairman of the organization."

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...tons/28595777/

"Tom Wilson, president of Olympia Entertainment, said in a statement today: "With The District Detroit, we're planning and building a vibrant, walkable and active sports and entertainment district that will feature events throughout the year across numerous venues and public spaces. We appreciate what Tom Gores and the Pistons organization have accomplished, and we're absolutely open to any partnerships that bring exciting, unique events to Detroit and its fans."

Good point that Ilitch and Gores have entertainment interests which overlap significantly:

"Because Gores and the Ilitches have similar business interests, they are both competitors and potential partners..."

Next, we need to figure out what ways besides sports and entertainment Gores wants to go.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

As they say, "Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls:"

"Though he hasn't been asked yet, Detroit Pistons owner Tom Gores said he'd be open to playing some games downtown once a new arena that's part of a larger $650-million project is open for business in 2017.
Forging possible partnerships with the Ilitch family, which owns the Detroit Tigers and Red Wings and is behind the new downtown arena and entertainment district, is job one for super-agent Arn Tellem, hired by Gores last week as vice chairman of the organization."

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...tons/28595777/

"Tom Wilson, president of Olympia Entertainment, said in a statement today: "With The District Detroit, we're planning and building a vibrant, walkable and active sports and entertainment district that will feature events throughout the year across numerous venues and public spaces. We appreciate what Tom Gores and the Pistons organization have accomplished, and we're absolutely open to any partnerships that bring exciting, unique events to Detroit and its fans."

Good point that Ilitch and Gores have entertainment interests which overlap significantly:

"Because Gores and the Ilitches have similar business interests, they are both competitors and potential partners..."

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This is kind of huge news if accurate. This new arena would have a lot more "bite" if it were home to the Pistons as well. Give more sports fans an opportunity to enjoy the new facility outside of hockey. Gilberts comments a while back seem to have gotten to Gores.

I hated when they installed the new scoreboard at the Palace, not the equipment, but ownerships commitment to hanging loose in AH for a longer period. I really despise the whole set up being an out of state visitor. I thought many times if I moved to the city or inner ring suburb there would still be little incentive to drive that far for just a game. It's so antiquated in every aspect.

My question is this:

Is this Gore's play to sell the Pistons to illitch?

Franchise values in the NBA are at an all time high following the Balmer Clipper purchase for 2 Billion.

This is who Gores is, and how he makes his money, BUY LOW AND SELL HIGH. See platinum equity.:rolleyes:

Maybe in the deal they agree to split the concert bookings in the future?


Illitch doesn't strike me as the type who likes to share.

Illitch was supposedly interested in the team when they were sold to Gores.

Illitch would love those concession profits from Pistons game.

A Pistons move would be so splashy, another nice headline for the city nationally. Moving from one of the wealthiest counties in America, back to the core.

Fingers crossed EMUSTEVE..

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Originally Posted by Dbest

This is kind of huge news if accurate. This new arena would have a lot more "bite" if it were home to the Pistons as well. Give more sports fans an opportunity to enjoy the new facility outside of hockey. Gilberts comments a while back seem to have gotten to Gores.

I hated when they installed the new scoreboard at the Palace, not the equipment, but ownerships commitment to hanging loose in AH for a longer period. I really despise the whole set up being an out of state visitor. I thought many times if I moved to the city or inner ring suburb there would still be little incentive to drive that far for just a game. It's so antiquated in every aspect.

My question is this:

Is this Gore's play to sell the Pistons to illitch?

Franchise values in the NBA are at an all time high following the Balmer Clipper purchase for 2 Billion.

This is who Gores is, and how he makes his money, BUY LOW AND SELL HIGH. See platinum equity.:rolleyes:

Maybe in the deal they agree to split the concert bookings in the future?


Illitch doesn't strike me as the type who likes to share.

Illitch was supposedly interested in the team when they were sold to Gores.

Illitch would love those concession profits from Pistons game.

A Pistons move would be so splashy, another nice headline for the city nationally. Moving from one of the wealthiest counties in America, back to the core.

Fingers crossed EMUSTEVE..

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Thanks.

As I posted somewhere, basketball is an URBAN game. It is not designed to be played in Trenton, AH, Canton, etc.

Man, anyone who has been to a Wizards' playoff game knows that. Folks love the Verizon Center and Gallery Place area. It is the urban environment Detroiters, including the Ilitches, would dream. Subway to the arena, bar hop before and after, food places galore. Like NYC.


And, I'd assume, the NBA players want to be downtown. They have 'urban bones'. Would a James every want to play in say Green Bay?

I'll repeat a point I've made before about the teams, arena area and Ilitch holdings: Lot of the future will be in the hands of Miriam and Chris.

I don't think Miriam is big into sports.

When the day comes, and control passes for the Tigers and Wings, things have to go smoothly.

I doubt there is any interest in acquiring the Pistons now [[or even something small like a soccer team).

Be careful not to read more than what has been written. There is an enormous difference between the Pistons "playing some games downtown", as Mr. Gores put it, and moving the Pistons to Detroit, which nobody in any official capacity with the Pistons has mentioned at all, so far as I can tell.

The Pistons also play some games in Chicago and some games in Boston but aren't moving to either of those locations.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

The Pistons also play some games in Chicago and some games in Boston but aren't moving to either of those locations.

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Huh? :confused:

Bottom line is this, THEY ARE DRAWING FLIES IN A.H. Even when the team was winning games and battling to overcome a wretched start to the year, fans chose to stay home. They have some of the worst attendance in the league. Even before Lebron "came home", the Cavs had drawn better attendance than the Pistons the past few years. This franchise is stuck in neutral, if not reverse. It's time to change course.

Emusteve, were you part of this thread below? Might be time to bump it....

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...ghlight=palace

I won't hold my breath for a move to downtown given the ownership of the Palace, but a few games a year would be great to see. Anything to boost the number of days/evenings that the arena is drawing people into the city and helping support nearby businesses.

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Originally Posted by Dbest

Huh? :confused:

Bottom line is this, THEY ARE DRAWING FLIES IN A.H. Even when the team was winning games and battling to overcome a wretched start to the year, fans chose to stay home. They have some of the worst attendance in the league. Even before Lebron "came home", the Cavs had drawn better attendance than the Pistons the past few years. This franchise is stuck in neutral, if not reverse. It's time to change course.

Emusteve, were you part of this thread below? Might be time to bump it....

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...ghlight=palace

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I was not.

At the time of that thread, I don't think I was on this forum. I came on this forum when things started heating up for a new arena. Maybe 2011????

Hockey and Basketball arena's are different.... and there are sight lines/seating issues to contend with when a stadium is set up for both. Brooklyn's Barclay's Arena is getting a retrofit to add on the NY Islanders Hockey games.

So I think of the talking between the Gores and Ilitch organizations as a way for them to make some changes to the new arena configuration now, should basketball ever move to that facility, either occasionally or full time.

Smart move.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Hockey and Basketball arena's are different.... and there are sight lines/seating issues to contend with when a stadium is set up for both. Brooklyn's Barclay's Arena is getting a retrofit to add on the NY Islanders Hockey games.

So I think of the talking between the Gores and Ilitch organizations as a way for them to make some changes to the new arena configuration now, should basketball ever move to that facility, either occasionally or full time.

Smart move.

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I don't want to quibble, but most arenas SHOULD be constructed to suit both hockey and basketball.

IF this arena is not [[so designed), bad, bad mistake as it will be a popular site for tourneys [[e.g., Horizon League, NCAA, etc.) from the 'get go' even before if we know if it will be a future site for the Pistons and some 'Detroit' games for MSU, [[maybe) UofM, etc.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Thanks.

As I posted somewhere, basketball is an URBAN game. It is not designed to be played in Trenton, AH, Canton, etc.

Man, anyone who has been to a Wizards' playoff game knows that. Folks love the Verizon Center and Gallery Place area. It is the urban environment Detroiters, including the Ilitches, would dream. Subway to the arena, bar hop before and after, food places galore. Like NYC.


And, I'd assume, the NBA players want to be downtown. They have 'urban bones'. Would a James every want to play in say Green Bay?

I'll repeat a point I've made before about the teams, arena area and Ilitch holdings: Lot of the future will be in the hands of Miriam and Chris.

I don't think Miriam is big into sports.

When the day comes, and control passes for the Tigers and Wings, things have to go smoothly.

I doubt there is any interest in acquiring the Pistons now [[or even something small like a soccer team).

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I had a little chuckle when I read your "urban bones" comment as I pictured a NBA player with a multimillion dollar contract choosing a not ready for prime time downtown over a mansion on Orchard Lake or or a pad in downtown Birmingham. Those so called urban bones apparently go bye bye when someone has the world by the short ones and the means to satisfy their ego. It also doesn't help that there aren't many [[if any at all) truly high end living options downtown. I'm not in the biz of guessing where someone wants to live but other than John Salley and Sergei Federov way back in he day I can't think of a major local athlete who has lived in the city recently. Someone please educate me if I'm wrong and try not to make it some player no one has heard of.

They bring their urban with them to the 'burbs... :cool:

I know John Salley lived in that mansion off of 7 and woodward but where did Fedorov live in Detroit. I don't recall him living in the city.

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Originally Posted by Cliffy

I know John Salley lived in that mansion off of 7 and woodward but where did Fedorov live in Detroit. I don't recall him living in the city.

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I could be wrong but I thought he lived in The Riverfront Towers Apartments next to The Joe when he first moved here. If memory serves a few of the decent Wings lived there when they first moved here. I think Salley was from Brooklyn and Federov was from the bustling Soviet city Pskov so naturally they were both trying to appease their urban bones by living in the city.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Thanks.

As I posted somewhere, basketball is an URBAN game. It is not designed to be played in Trenton, AH, Canton, etc.

Man, anyone who has been to a Wizards' playoff game knows that. Folks love the Verizon Center and Gallery Place area. It is the urban environment Detroiters, including the Ilitches, would dream. Subway to the arena, bar hop before and after, food places galore. Like NYC.


And, I'd assume, the NBA players want to be downtown. They have 'urban bones'. Would a James every want to play in say Green Bay?

I'll repeat a point I've made before about the teams, arena area and Ilitch holdings: Lot of the future will be in the hands of Miriam and Chris.

I don't think Miriam is big into sports.

When the day comes, and control passes for the Tigers and Wings, things have to go smoothly.

I doubt there is any interest in acquiring the Pistons now [[or even something small like a soccer team).

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One of the more patently bizarre statements I read from Drew Sharp a year or so, concerning lagging attendance at the Palace, was that [Metro] Detroit [[paraphrasing) "just [[isn't) much of a basketball town." It was a statement that just seemed to totally ignore [[or a slap to) the urban fanbase.
If the Pistons' stadium were back in Detroit proper, pricey seats notwithstanding, I'm sure there would be a more consistently high attendance rate, even in seasons were there's no clear playoff run in sight..

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Originally Posted by TTime

I could be wrong but I thought he lived in The Riverfront Towers Apartments next to The Joe when he first moved here. If memory serves a few of the decent Wings lived there when they first moved here. I think Salley was from Brooklyn and Federov was from the bustling Soviet city Pskov so naturally they were both trying to appease their urban bones by living in the city.

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...it looks like The Pizza Man put him and others in that building when they were starting out so he could keep an eye on them and avoid another Petr Klima situation. If it was by choice or not, Federov and other Wings from the 90's lived in Detroit

Wow, another article, but much stronger about the Pistons possibly moving downtown...

I am surprised about the writer, suggesting a "Hail Mary" option of building another arena at the jail site.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...ream/28667419/

Couple of telling paragraphs:

Gilbert is pushing for Gores to move downtown. Gilbert built Quicken Loans Arena in downtown Cleveland after buying the Cavaliers and moved the team from Richfield Coliseum, about 20 miles south.

"It's hard to compete not being in an urban corridor," Gilbert told The Detroit News last week. "You have to sell more than just the game. You have to sell the entire experience, and you can't get that in a field [[in Auburn Hills). You gotta get that in an urban corridor, where there are restaurants or casinos or other entertainment venues."

If the Pistons move, The Palace would not close. It would remain as a special-events and concert venue.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Hockey and Basketball arena's are different.... and there are sight lines/seating issues to contend with when a stadium is set up for both. Brooklyn's Barclay's Arena is getting a retrofit to add on the NY Islanders Hockey games.

So I think of the talking between the Gores and Ilitch organizations as a way for them to make some changes to the new arena configuration now, should basketball ever move to that facility, either occasionally or full time.

Smart move.

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I think the problem at Barclay's is that it is a basketball arena retrofitted for hockey. That's tough.

Typical 'multi-purpose' arenas are built for hockey and then additional seating placed for basketball [[because of the size differential between a hockey rink and basketball court).

Shouldn't be a problem unless there were design issues... [[and that shouldn't happen).

I'm going to keep posting these articles, as they all are saying something different and covering a number of different topics [[besides the 'P' word - Pistons):

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...tons/28595777/

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...city/28578363/

It feels like something is going to happen outside of "a few games downtown". This is an "all or nothing" scenario. Do they even need to test the theory that Detroit is a better destination for sports fans than A.H. ?

Is Gores playing both sides and trying to leverage a better deal? Whether that be with Illitch and the arena project, or a new stadium with Gilbert maybe. I'd prefer a new stadium so that jail is squashed forever.

I think the banners should be trucked downtown in a series of giant plexiglass cases so people can see them. Maybe Duggan riding shotgun and flippn LBP the bird on the way out. Roll em down Woodward for their true homecoming. People would line the street for that, not to mention it would make national media rolls and further relay the message: Detroit is re-inhabiting...

One more thing, let's pretend another stadium were built for the Pistons, as well as an MLS stadium at some point in the next 5 years. How strong could a Detroit Olympic bid start to look if the neighborhoods turned around in the next 10-15 years? Just a thought..

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Originally Posted by Dbest

It feels like something is going to happen outside of "a few games downtown". This is an "all or nothing" scenario. Do they even need to test the theory that Detroit is a better destination for sports fans than A.H. ?

Is Gores playing both sides and trying to leverage a better deal? Whether that be with Illitch and the arena project, or a new stadium with Gilbert maybe. I'd prefer a new stadium so that jail is squashed forever.

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Based on prior threads, I'm not touching the Olympics with a ten-foot pole, but you seem to be spot on with the above.

Pistons Playing in City is Tom Gores' Dream

The headline's a bit stronger than the actual content but Foster claims the two options are as you laid out - Illitch Arena or jail site with Gilbert. Pretty much the only relevant thing Gores says to that is "We are going to charter Arn to study that [[moving downtown). It will be one of his first things."

Some other nuggets.:

"We have to pull everybody together. When you look at downtown, there is a jail in the middle of everything. There are things that don't make sense."

"It is incumbent for us to bring it all together. I do believe we can. Sometimes it helps to be the new kid on the block because there is less history. We can't be in the same house working against each other."

I'd hate to see another arena built, though if they went that route it's better than the jail at least. But as an armchair planner I'd prefer to keep it all in one place and try to build on that. Of course who knows what will look best to Mr. Gores. We all thought the Palace was too lucrative to leave, so...

Two new arenas less than a mile apart just seems asinine. I am against the jail site as much as the next person but can't we come up with something better than another unnecessary arena? Gores can have his team play in Illitch's arena and take the money he saves not building his own on redeveloping the area around it.

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Originally Posted by southen

Two new arenas less than a mile apart just seems asinine. I am against the jail site as much as the next person but can't we come up with something better than another unnecessary arena? Gores can have his team play in Illitch's arena and take the money he saves not building his own on redeveloping the area around it.

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No doubt another stadium seems asinine. I think there is a consensus on this board about the overall reality of stadiums/arena, they are dead chunks during off days. That being said, if this was some homerun project like a stadium in-cased by residential and retail offerings then fine. I cant judge Gores/Gilbert on what Illitch/Ford have done with there complexes. I would have much more faith in Gilbert, and Gores is always at Staples Center watching games so I would think he would want something similar.

I personally think Gores wants a Staples Center like development with Gilbert, I wouldn't be opposed to that. I would love to see this project dueling with Illitch for ancillary developments. It would force Illitch to step up his game or get exposed. I just dont know if another stadium referendum would pass, although this involves relocation from another city so it might have more pull considering they would be fresh meat for city tax rolls...

More than likely Gores is being courted by Gilbert and Illitch for their respective projects. Gores and Magic are friends as well, maybe Magic will enter the fray and try to entice him to the old fairgrounds project?

Or what about the riverfront spot now occupied by the Joe? Gores might have the magic ticket[[no pun intended) owning the Pistons and getting an awesome deal to build his dream. It seems like it could go in many different directions...

Maybe this is why he is a billionaire? He saw this coming when he bought the team. Everything since that day has simply been posturing/facade for this upcoming pinnacle moment. That new scoreboard is an easy move but gives him leverage, "see we want to stay in Palace!", meanwhile they already had the cost figures on relocating it 20 miles away.

Couple of my thoughts [[related to posts above):

1). Surprise, surprise... I'm not in favor of another arena in downtown. I do hope Gilbert can get the jail site and do something commercial with it.

2). My view and I hope this is a 'new thought' for posters here: I'd like to see more equal number of dates both sides of Woodward. What I mean 1/2 Comerica and Ford Field and 1/2 at the new arena. Say 100+ dates at Comerica/Ford Field and 100+ at the new arena [[could go 125 - 150 with both the Pistons and Wings).

3). The 125 - 150 arena dates [[assuming the Pistons move to the arena the number of Pistons/Wings games would approach 100) would turbo charge the 'west of Woodward' area. Hockey and basketball fans are noted for liking to eat and drink before or after games [[or both). 125 - 150 arena dates is 'critical mass' for developers. Toss in a soccer stadium and that number increases by say another 25 - 30. Who wouldn't want to own a bar or eatery say 1 or 2 blocks from an arena with 150 - 175 dates???

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Originally Posted by TTime

I had a little chuckle when I read your "urban bones" comment as I pictured a NBA player with a multimillion dollar contract choosing a not ready for prime time downtown over a mansion on Orchard Lake or or a pad in downtown Birmingham. Those so called urban bones apparently go bye bye when someone has the world by the short ones and the means to satisfy their ego. It also doesn't help that there aren't many [[if any at all) truly high end living options downtown. I'm not in the biz of guessing where someone wants to live but other than John Salley and Sergei Federov way back in he day I can't think of a major local athlete who has lived in the city recently. Someone please educate me if I'm wrong and try not to make it some player no one has heard of.

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I can't think of anyone recently, you have to go way back, but there have been a few athletes who have lived in Detroit proper. Kevin Porter who played for the Pistons in the late 70's, lived in Rosedale Park, as a matter of fact, the late Emmanuel Steward purchased his home when he got traded to Washington. Derrick Coleman is another who lived in the very same neighborhood, he grew up in. Leon Spinks who isn't originally from here, lived in Rosedale as well. Besides the aforementioned Salley and Federov, these are the only ones I could come up with, most live in the GP's or Oakland County burbs.

I'd rather have different entities competing at this point. The ramifications seem so much greater if Gores did his own thing. Riding Illitchs coat-tail while propping him up will do little to cement the legacy Gores seems to be aspiring for according to these articles. Good for Illitch and Midtown if he moves the Pistons to new Olympia Stadium but the impact could have been greater felt somewhere else in the city. Whether its fail jail, fair grounds or anywhere else.

I personally would like to see a stadium built at the old fairgrounds, could help build momentum for M-1 to run up to 8 mile. Gores just donated 250 large to Magic's Lansing School initiative .Maybe Gores could fix up Dumars field house, he says he wants "gymnasiums" for kids?..
I know, I know, its far fetched.

Nonetheless, this all seems to be the beginning of a pretty juicy story. ;)

Knowing Gores, this a play for a better deal at the Illitch arena.

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Originally Posted by Dbest

Or what about the riverfront spot now occupied by the Joe?

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That was disposed of during bankruptcy, with the property being guaranteed to an insurer. It's supposedly going to be hotel/office.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

...

2). My view and I hope this is a 'new thought' for posters here: I'd like to see more equal number of dates both sides of Woodward. What I mean 1/2 Comerica and Ford Field and 1/2 at the new arena. Say 100+ dates at Comerica/Ford Field and 100+ at the new arena [[could go 125 - 150 with both the Pistons and Wings).

3). The 125 - 150 arena dates [[assuming the Pistons move to the arena the number of Pistons/Wings games would approach 100) would turbo charge the 'west of Woodward' area. Hockey and basketball fans are noted for liking to eat and drink before or after games [[or both). 125 - 150 arena dates is 'critical mass' for developers. Toss in a soccer stadium and that number increases by say another 25 - 30. Who wouldn't want to own a bar or eatery say 1 or 2 blocks from an arena with 150 - 175 dates???

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Isn't that a bit optimistic? Pistons + Red Wings would be 82 guaranteed regular season home dates. Both leagues play 8 preseason games I believe, so that's 8 more total home dates between both teams [[up to 90). Then, a typical 7-game playoff round probably averages about 3 games per round if we're homers and assume a lot of home ice/home court, but even if both teams made the finals in the same year you'd only be adding about 24 more dates. And that basically never happens.

So in a really good year with both teams making deep playoff runs, I think you'd be looking at more like 110 sports dates max. More typically it would probably be about 95-100. Not that we disagree on the larger point, but I think that reinforces why it would be much better to concentrate those events in one place. Even after accounting for concerts etc. the building will easily be empty for 1/2 to 2/3 of the year. Having two arenas means two sites that are empty for 75-80% of the year.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

I can't think of anyone recently, you have to go way back, but there have been a few athletes who have lived in Detroit proper. Kevin Porter who played for the Pistons in the late 70's, lived in Rosedale Park, as a matter of fact, the late Emmanuel Steward purchased his home when he got traded to Washington. Derrick Coleman is another who lived in the very same neighborhood, he grew up in. Leon Spinks who isn't originally from here, lived in Rosedale as well. Besides the aforementioned Salley and Federov, these are the only ones I could come up with, most live in the GP's or Oakland County burbs.

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I've heard that Matt Stafford owns a condo in the Fort Shelby? Dont know if it's true...

I think an issue worth adding to the mix is the value of the Palace for all its non-sports events. If I recall correctly, the Palace had one of the highest utilization rates in the country. In fact, I remember a discussion saying that the stadium was the greater part of the purchase price [[as opposed to the franchise). It's also my understanding that franchises don't make bupkis in terms of cash flow.

Now that a new Joe Louis is on the way, that will certainly cut into the Palace's utilization rate, I would think. I like the Palace, but attending an event downtown would be much more appealing, in my opinion.

How do those factors play against each other? Who knows? It will be great to see the new RW stadium when built, though.

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Originally Posted by BankruptcyGuy

I think an issue worth adding to the mix is the value of the Palace for all its non-sports events. If I recall correctly, the Palace had one of the highest utilization rates in the country. ...

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Good point, looks like the Palace averages about 5 events per week through the next couple months. Much more than I thought. No idea how much New Olympia might hope to draw away.

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Originally Posted by Junjie

That was disposed of during bankruptcy, with the property being guaranteed to an insurer. It's supposedly going to be hotel/office.



Isn't that a bit optimistic? Pistons + Red Wings would be 82 guaranteed regular season home dates. Both leagues play 8 preseason games I believe, so that's 8 more total home dates between both teams [[up to 90). Then, a typical 7-game playoff round probably averages about 3 games per round if we're homers and assume a lot of home ice/home court, but even if both teams made the finals in the same year you'd only be adding about 24 more dates. And that basically never happens.

So in a really good year with both teams making deep playoff runs, I think you'd be looking at more like 110 sports dates max. More typically it would probably be about 95-100. Not that we disagree on the larger point, but I think that reinforces why it would be much better to concentrate those events in one place. Even after accounting for concerts etc. the building will easily be empty for 1/2 to 2/3 of the year. Having two arenas means two sites that are empty for 75-80% of the year.

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What I was trying to say is that Wings & Pistons would be 90 - 100 dates per year.

What I was getting at is there are maybe 50 non-Wing/Piston dates per year for the new arena.

Another stadium would be ridiculous. Is there even a city that has 4 major sports teams with 4 different stadiums? I doubt it. Need to combine Red wings and Pistons, that is the only thing that really makes sense. And it would be awesome to have to two together. The new red wings arena is already being built with a practice rink attached as well, so the two would cohabitate just fine.

The more I think about this, the more it all starts to smell funny.

Think about it, Illitch says hes ready to build the new arena BUT He's going to need massive help from the city[[again:mad:) financing the project. His claims probably along the lines of: "The Wings only play so many games!" and in order to make it economically feasible from a business standpoint he needs some extra "concessions". Pun-intended, he gets a FULL concession rake!

He also gets all that PARKING REVENUE. Ok done deal, city helps him out. What does Detroit get? A renovated Eddystone and promises of future ancillary development. OK fair enough...

Fast forward less than a year into construction, all of sudden the media is publishing stories about the Pistons hiring someone to negotiate with the Illitchs? How story book!LOL

I believe this plan was hatched long ago between these billionaires and they will split concession revenue while Detroit gets none[[again:mad:) in those additional 81 Pistons games. Illitch's excuse will be that the Pistons came to the table after negotiations were finalized with the city.

"Deal's a Deal" type shit with the city getting hosed.

Think about it, Illitch gets half the concessions and all his usual parking revenue each Piston game. I might not believe it if it weren't Illitch involved.

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Originally Posted by Dbest

I've heard that Matt Stafford owns a condo in the Fort Shelby? Dont know if it's true...

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I actually heard it was the Book Cadillac...

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Originally Posted by Dbest

No doubt another stadium seems asinine. I think there is a consensus on this board about the overall reality of stadiums/arena, they are dead chunks during off days. That being said, if this was some homerun project like a stadium in-cased by residential and retail offerings then fine. I cant judge Gores/Gilbert on what Illitch/Ford have done with there complexes. I would have much more faith in Gilbert, and Gores is always at Staples Center watching games so I would think he would want something similar.

I personally think Gores wants a Staples Center like development with Gilbert, I wouldn't be opposed to that. I would love to see this project dueling with Illitch for ancillary developments. It would force Illitch to step up his game or get exposed. I just dont know if another stadium referendum would pass, although this involves relocation from another city so it might have more pull considering they would be fresh meat for city tax rolls...

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Even if it was "homerun", building a new arena just for the Pistons is silly. The public is already paying for one new area and I'm not fan of using public money for sports facilities and that exactly what will happened iif Gores get his own place. But we've crossed that bridge with the Wings arena. I want the Pistons downtown, but not at that price they are far more important things that kind of money could used for to improve the city.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

What I was trying to say is that Wings & Pistons would be 90 - 100 dates per year.

What I was getting at is there are maybe 50 non-Wing/Piston dates per year for the new arena.

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Got it, yeah that makes sense. I didn't realize initially how many other events there can be.

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Originally Posted by MSUguy

Even was "homerun" building a new arena just for the Pistons is silly. The public is already paying for one new area and I'm not fan of using public money for sports facilities and that exactly what will happened iif Gores get his own place. But we've crossed that bridge with the Wings arena. I want the Pistons downtown, but not a that price they are far more important things that kind of money could used for to improve the city/

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I agree, but if the Pistons do decide to share the new stadium, the prior agreements need to be revisited in terms of what the city should get. Illitch had the benefit of negotiating this as the sole sports team occupant in the arena, it is likely it factored into the sweetheart deal from the city. Now supposedbly here comes Gores within months. This was the plan all along. They have probably already started making arangements for the new scoreboard at the Palace to be moved into the new stadium...

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Originally Posted by 313WX

I actually heard it was the Book Cadillac...

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That would make a lil more sense considering the team stays at the Book the night before games.

Funny story, my girlfriend and I were staying at the Book while in town for a Lions game. After having a good time downtown until late that Saturday night we headed back to the Book. I cant remember why but we took the main stairwell to our floor. I was walking past the third floor when I noticed its entrance was nicely wood trimmed. I told my girl I had to see what was behind there.

I open the door to see a huge Lions symbol fathead on the wall, as well as designated areas for the players. We tipped toed around and checked out their film room, and were on the way to look around some more when a security guard asked us to leave, he was super cool. I was a little nervous because I grabbed a Gatorade out of a glass doored fridge in that film room.:cool:

All I can say IF the Pistons move to the new arena, can you imagine 'April in the D' with MLB, NHL and NBA seasons all overlapping and the two venues being so close? :)

"Day/Night" doubleheaders with the Tigers during the day and a hockey or basketball game in the evening... Pretty exciting.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

"Day/Night" doubleheaders with the Tigers during the day and a hockey or basketball game in the evening... Pretty exciting.

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Pretty sweet thought....

Hopefully L. Brooks Patterson will be totally pushed to the side in the midst of the Gores' business plans. If the Palace sticks around as a concerts venue, that should be good enough.

The pistons are not moving downtown anytime soon.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...tons/28686331/

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"Tom Gores and his partners are committed to investing broadly in Michigan, including Detroit and its surrounding communities, and to partnering with other business leaders on initiatives that will improve the economy and quality of life in the entire region. Pitting neighborhoods against one another is divisive and counterproductive, and misses the point.
"The Pistons have a terrific home in Auburn Hills and ownership has invested substantially in ensuring that the Palace remains a state of-the-art arena complex as an arena, concert venue and training facility for the team. There are no plans to change that."

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I won't happen yet. Possibly ever. We shall see. The economics of pistons and palace change a lot of things.

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Originally Posted by TTime

I had a little chuckle when I read your "urban bones" comment as I pictured a NBA player with a multimillion dollar contract choosing a not ready for prime time downtown over a mansion on Orchard Lake or or a pad in downtown Birmingham. Those so called urban bones apparently go bye bye when someone has the world by the short ones and the means to satisfy their ego. It also doesn't help that there aren't many [[if any at all) truly high end living options downtown. I'm not in the biz of guessing where someone wants to live but other than John Salley and Sergei Federov way back in he day I can't think of a major local athlete who has lived in the city recently. Someone please educate me if I'm wrong and try not to make it some player no one has heard of.

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There have been a few pro athletes who have lived downtown other than the ones you mentioned.

Rick Mahorn owned a condo near the Fisher Mansion
James Hall [[UofM,Lions), lived in the Riverfront Towers.
Juan Gonzales lived in the Riverfront Towers.
Chris Webber had a condo in harbortown.
Matt Stafford owns a condo in the Fort Shelby Towers.
T.J. Ducket lived in the Millender Center.

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Originally Posted by ndavies

The pistons are not moving downtown anytime soon.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...tons/28686331/

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"There are no plans to change that" is a pretty flimsy denial. Remember that Duggan also had "no plans" to run for mayor. Whole Foods had "no plans for opening a Detroit location."

No one ever has plans. Until they do.

Gores didn't just make a big, strategic hire for show. Even if it doesnt happen tomorrow, I'd be keeping my eyes open on this one.

Sounds likes trouble in paradise at Platinum!

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Originally Posted by R.B.J

There have been a few pro athletes who have lived downtown other than the ones you mentioned.

Rick Mahorn owned a condo near the Fisher Mansion
James Hall [[UofM,Lions), lived in the Riverfront Towers.
Juan Gonzales lived in the Riverfront Towers.
Chris Webber had a condo in harbortown.
Matt Stafford owns a condo in the Fort Shelby Towers.
T.J. Ducket lived in the Millender Center.

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So TJ Duckett in 07 is the most recent athlete to live downtown then it seems. Everyone else you listed was from earlier other than Stafford who doesn't live in his place. Thanks for responding, I was curious if there was an influx of current athletes taking advantage of downtown's "comeback." It doesn't look like it because I'm sure people would say something.

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Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

"There are no plans to change that" is a pretty flimsy denial. Remember that Duggan also had "no plans" to run for mayor. Whole Foods had "no plans for opening a Detroit location."

No one ever has plans. Until they do.

Gores didn't just make a big, strategic hire for show. Even if it doesnt happen tomorrow, I'd be keeping my eyes open on this one.

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I agree with you. Sometimes folks, like in politics, 'walk things back' but that is a nice way of saying: "What I said, I meant, but I didn't mean to say it when I said it or I need to for reasons to offer caveats, which I failed to do..."

I think they spoke the truth but said it a little too soon and without enough caveats...

One thing about caveats, etc.: It does take two to tango, and any plan to have Pistons game in the new arena is still dependent on the two sides coming to an agreement. Whenever two parties negotiate, only God knows the final outcome in advance...

I still expect that we'll see some Pistons games at the new arena this decade...

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Thanks.

As I posted somewhere, basketball is an URBAN game. It is not designed to be played in Trenton, AH, Canton, etc.

Man, anyone who has been to a Wizards' playoff game knows that. Folks love the Verizon Center and Gallery Place area. It is the urban environment Detroiters, including the Ilitches, would dream. Subway to the arena, bar hop before and after, food places galore. Like NYC.


And, I'd assume, the NBA players want to be downtown. They have 'urban bones'. Would a James every want to play in say Green Bay? ).

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Yeah. Can you imagine any NBA player ever coming out of French Lick?

j/k. I totally agree with your premise

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Originally Posted by T.Low

Yeah. Can you imagine any NBA player ever coming out of French Lick?

j/k. I totally agree with your premise

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:) One from French Lick. One from Traverse City [[Dan Majerle).

I can imagine a NCAA coach saying he wants to go to Traverse City to watch some high school summer ball. And the AD asks: "How many D-I players from Traverse City in the last 25 years were there?" Coach says, "One or two, but that shouldn't be reason not to look for the next one." Lol.

I tried to make it into a French Lick joke, but it didn't seem plausible that a D-I coach would want to visit for a weekend... Lol.

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Originally Posted by TTime

So TJ Duckett in 07 is the most recent athlete to live downtown then it seems. Everyone else you listed was from earlier other than Stafford who doesn't live in his place. Thanks for responding, I was curious if there was an influx of current athletes taking advantage of downtown's "comeback." It doesn't look like it because I'm sure people would say something.

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Jose Valverde and Ramon Santiago both lived in the Fort-Shelby when they were last on the team a couple of years ago.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Gilbert is pushing for Gores to move downtown. Gilbert built Quicken Loans Arena in downtown Cleveland after buying the Cavaliers and moved the team from Richfield Coliseum, about 20 miles south.

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The arena was built in the mid-1990s by the former Cavs owner. It was named for him as Gund Arena.

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Originally Posted by Towne Cluber

The arena was built in the mid-1990s by the former Cavs owner. It was named for him as Gund Arena.

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Wow, I can't imagine that I posted [[that Gilbert built Quicken Loans Arena).

It was indeed, Gund. Wasn't he visually impaired to the point of being legally blind?

I actually went to a game in the 70s in Richfield...

Those were crazy times. I believe the WHA [[World Hockey Association) had a team in Cleveland and the Cavs were way out in Richfield.

As I remember it the CLE hockey team played at the Cleveland Arena, then there was Richfield and then the Gund.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Wow, I can't imagine that I posted [[that Gilbert built Quicken Loans Arena).

It was indeed, Gund. Wasn't he visually impaired to the point of being legally blind?

I actually went to a game in the 70s in Richfield...

Those were crazy times. I believe the WHA [[World Hockey Association) had a team in Cleveland and the Cavs were way out in Richfield.

As I remember it the CLE hockey team played at the Cleveland Arena, then there was Richfield and then the Gund.

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It was actually Terry Foster who wrote that in his column. You would think he would have done some research before posting that article, but it's typical Foster. Which is why I don put much stock in this story. If you've listened to him on the radio, you'll know he does a lot of throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks.

Here's the same speculative story written by Foster on his blog[[from October):

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However, I’ve been told that the riff between former owner Bill Davidson and the Mike Ilitch group remains. Walls need to be broken down if the Pistons are to move into the new Red Wings arena. Instead there is a better chance of the Pistons moving into a joint venture with Dan Gilbert and Gores at another site.Let me go back to a previous blog. Would you rather see the failed jail revived downtown or a new basketball and concert arena? It would be silly to build a second arena when you have a brand new one down the street. But that alternative is better than having a jail and court house.
I remember seeing the Pistons play at Cobo Arena. They did not draw very well but the team was terrible and Cobo was hardly a mecca you looked forward to playing in or visiting as a fan.
There is a lot going on downtown. I want to see the Pistons part of the revival. The visit downtown was cool. Now it is time to find a permanent home.
Afterall Mason does call it “Deeeetroitttt Basketbaaaaaallllll!!!!”

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http://terryfostersblog.com/?p=3005

One thing I will agree with him on is that the Pistons belong in Detroit. Every new NBA arena is being built downtown for a reason. Nets moved to Brooklyn, Sacramento is moving the Kings downtown and now Milwaukee is doing the same thing with the Bucks new arena.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeP4kZW_kU4

I still see a lot of animosity from Detroiters towards the Pistons because they play in Auburn Hills. In a way you can't blame them because as much as suburbanites like to praise Bill Davidson, he was very selfish and bailed on the city. Had the Pistons stayed at the Joe, maybe him Ilitch and the city could have worked together and built a new arena downtown back in the 90s.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

I am surprised about the writer, suggesting a "Hail Mary" option of building another arena at the jail site.

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Gores is in the business of private equity, that's how he operates and thinks. So unless the City or Gilbert build him an arena, it makes no financial sense to move back downtown until the Palace is truly outdated. It won't be for a while since he has spent over $40 million on upgrades. Another thing to consider about leaving the Palace, running 20-25 events a year, with maybe a dozen of size, is a vast step down from running 60-65, that 2/3 of facilities use. That's not enough to maintain overhead, workforce, basic upkeep, ancillary food/beverage vendors, sponsorship and corporate suites. Not to mention, the new Red Wings arena, and in this case, a new Pistons arena to compete with for the leftover. If it was feasible to survive without a core tenant, other area venues would've tried it.

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Originally Posted by Dbest

The more I think about this, the more it all starts to smell funny.

Think about it, Illitch says hes ready to build the new arena BUT He's going to need massive help from the city[[again:mad:) financing the project. His claims probably along the lines of: "The Wings only play so many games!" and in order to make it economically feasible from a business standpoint he needs some extra "concessions". Pun-intended, he gets a FULL concession rake!

He also gets all that PARKING REVENUE. Ok done deal, city helps him out. What does Detroit get? A renovated Eddystone and promises of future ancillary development. OK fair enough...

Fast forward less than a year into construction, all of sudden the media is publishing stories about the Pistons hiring someone to negotiate with the Illitchs? How story book!LOL

I believe this plan was hatched long ago between these billionaires and they will split concession revenue while Detroit gets none[[again:mad:) in those additional 81 Pistons games. Illitch's excuse will be that the Pistons came to the table after negotiations were finalized with the city.

"Deal's a Deal" type shit with the city getting hosed.

Think about it, Illitch gets half the concessions and all his usual parking revenue each Piston game. I might not believe it if it weren't Illitch involved.

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You might wanna check some facts. The Ilitches spent years acquiring land [[first behind the Fox, where the new arena was supposed to go in the 90s) and working through a ton of loopholes to finally build this arena. They are not gonna share or give up anything without benefiting from it. And it's their right since they are the reason this arena is happening in the first place.

Also, don't read too much into what Tom Gores has been saying. He's a savvy businessman who will sell the Pistons when the price is right... http://detroitsportsrag.net/why-woul...l-the-pistons/

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Originally Posted by mikemcm

One thing I will agree with him on is that the Pistons belong in Detroit. Every new NBA arena is being built downtown for a reason. Nets moved to Brooklyn, Sacramento is moving the Kings downtown and now Milwaukee is doing the same thing with the Bucks new arena.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeP4kZW_kU4

I still see a lot of animosity from Detroiters towards the Pistons because they play in Auburn Hills. In a way you can't blame them because as much as suburbanites like to praise Bill Davidson, he was very selfish and bailed on the city. Had the Pistons stayed at the Joe, maybe him Ilitch and the city could have worked together and built a new arena downtown back in the 90s.

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I noticed the addendum to your post, the video and paragraphs. Nice try though.:rolleyes:

Maybe you were the one who needed to "check some facts" as you put it...

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Originally Posted by TTime

So TJ Duckett in 07 is the most recent athlete to live downtown then it seems. Everyone else you listed was from earlier other than Stafford who doesn't live in his place. Thanks for responding, I was curious if there was an influx of current athletes taking advantage of downtown's "comeback." It doesn't look like it because I'm sure people would say something.

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Joicque Bell, running back for the Detroit Lions, mentioned he lived in Detroit during a Spring 2014 interview with Drew and Mark on 105.1 FM Detroit Sports Talk station. He said something to the effect, "I live in Detroit, and I mean the actual CITY of Detroit, not Novi." Drew was slightly taken aback, and replied, "Well, there's nothing wrong with Novi."