Rail Transit Construction and Rehab 2014

I just ran across a June 2014 issue of Metro [[the trade magazine for rail and bus transit). They have an article about the amount of streetcar/subway projects going on in the US and Canada. Right now there are about $99 billion in funded projects in some phase of design or construction.

New York leads the list with $16.55 billion.

2. Toronto-$13.2 billion
3. Seattle-$9 billion
4. Boston-$6.2 billion
5. Honolulu-$5.1 billion
6. San Diego-$3.5 billion
7. Los Angeles-$3.4 billion
8. Denver-$3.3 billion
9. Washington DC-$3.1 billion
10. Newington CT-$3.0 billion


Detroit? M-1 Rail with $137 million puts it in 40th place.

I'm not surprised Toronto's No. 1.

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Originally Posted by FormerDetroiter

I'm not surprised Toronto's No. 1.

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It's number 2...

Toronto has a blank check from the province of Ontario to spend as much as it wants on mass transit, earning it the nick-name Hogtown. Personally, I think southwestern Ontario would be better off if they seceded from the province. Boston never dismantled its' mass transit network like Detroit did. New York and Los Angeles can rely on the generosity of local, state and federal governments. Detroit has to rely on the private sector and a bankrupt city government.

Some Toronto press columnists esp. at the Globe and Mail are saying that Toronto's streetcar system should be dismantled. It is highly inefficient according to many. It slows down traffic on major streets, etc...

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Originally Posted by hortonz

Toronto has a blank check from the province of Ontario to spend as much as it wants on mass transit, earning it the nick-name Hogtown. Personally, I think southwestern Ontario would be better off if they seceded from the province. Boston never dismantled its' mass transit network like Detroit did. New York and Los Angeles can rely on the generosity of local, state and federal governments. Detroit has to rely on the private sector and a bankrupt city government.

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Or, in the case of New York, you have established transit authorities with oversight provided by a state-level agency, and dedicated funding mechanisms to keep the services operating. Federal transit dollars are available to all comers, provided you meet the requirements [[which Detroit and Michigan refuse to do). So let's spare the crocodile tears. Michigan chooses to invest only in roads, so that's what you have.

Correct, we've made our bed. That said, it shows what a modest investment M1 is...and it's mostly privately funded too. So hilarious that there are people who have a cow about M1.

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Originally Posted by Mackinaw

Correct, we've made our bed. That said, it shows what a modest investment M1 is...and it's mostly privately funded too. So hilarious that there are people who have a cow about M1.

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Well, on the one hand you have people arguing that it doesn't go far enough, that it isn't center running, or that it is not easily expansible. On the other hand you have people arguing that it is not needed, that it is a waste of money, or that it is another people mover.

I agree with your analysis.

The second group of people isn't very tuned in; the first group needs to keep pressing. I feel there will be a moment, once M1 is running and being used, for southern Oakland mayors [[and maybe even LBP if he can be lobbied to do something good as his final act) to join with Duggan [[and perhaps even Snyder in his final year) to secure state and federal startup funds for a Woodward line at least out through Birmingham. Ideally, in ten years we'll be comparing and contrasting Woodward light rail to BRT on other avenues, and seeing what works. Ideally.

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Originally Posted by Mackinaw

Correct, we've made our bed. That said, it shows what a modest investment M1 is...and it's mostly privately funded too. So hilarious that there are people who have a cow about M1.

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You make a valid point. However, that doesn't change the fact that Washington has not made good on its' promise to build mass transit in Detroit. The federal government promised to build a light-rail line down Woodward from 8-Mile to Jefferson back in the 70's and all Detroit got was the People Mover, which was only one part of a larger plan

Blame that on SMART and Oakland County

too many people in the region/state are against expanded mass transit. I don't see it happening in the next 10 years at all. Bankrupted city + tea party legislature = forget it.

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Originally Posted by Mackinaw

I agree with your analysis.

The second group of people isn't very tuned in; the first group needs to keep pressing. I feel there will be a moment, once M1 is running and being used, for southern Oakland mayors [[and maybe even LBP if he can be lobbied to do something good as his final act) to join with Duggan [[and perhaps even Snyder in his final year) to secure state and federal startup funds for a Woodward line at least out through Birmingham. Ideally, in ten years we'll be comparing and contrasting Woodward light rail to BRT on other avenues, and seeing what works. Ideally.

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Here, pass that over so I can get a hit. I want to see this "vision" too. Dugan, Snyder, and LBP, walking hand in hand through a field of daisies.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Here, pass that over so I can get a hit. I want to see this "vision" too. Dugan, Snyder, and LBP, walking hand in hand through a field of daisies.

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Yeah, just make sure the Detroit mower gang don't come and ruin the photo opportunity...

Yeah but we have some nice rail trails. What a waste of infrastructure

All of this self-pitying hand-wringing gets on my nerves. It's really simple, kids:

1. The Federal government absolutely never pays 100% of the cost of any infrastructure project. There absolutely has to be a local match.

2. Detroit [[the region) has never been willing to provide funding for transit projects in order to provide the local match.

3. Therefore Detroit is devoid of decent mass transit, not because of anything Washington did or didn't do, but because Detroit is not willing to ante up.

That's all there is to it. We could have fixed this any time in the last fifty or sixty years, but didn't; we can fix it any time in the next fifty or sixty years, but probably won't.

There's some rail construction starting in Detroit on Monday.

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Originally Posted by 48307

There's some rail construction starting in Detroit on Monday.

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If it don't will you buy me lunch?

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

If it don't will you buy me lunch?

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Planner you are beginning to chat like me

A much cheaper, and less disruptive plan, for the Woodward line:: A dedicated group of clean, safe, new buses for the same route. There, I just saved the planners millions. They could apply the savings to some new police officers.

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Originally Posted by Bobl

A much cheaper, and less disruptive plan, for the Woodward line:: A dedicated group of clean, safe, new buses for the same route. There, I just saved the planners millions. They could apply the savings to some new police officers.

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That is not what the people or the politicos want. Both have been very vocal and when planners presented them several options, they chose the train instead. This was not selected in a vacuum.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

All of this self-pitying hand-wringing gets on my nerves. It's really simple, kids:

1. The Federal government absolutely never pays 100% of the cost of any infrastructure project. There absolutely has to be a local match.

2. Detroit [[the region) has never been willing to provide funding for transit projects in order to provide the local match.

3. Therefore Detroit is devoid of decent mass transit, not because of anything Washington did or didn't do, but because Detroit is not willing to ante up.

That's all there is to it. We could have fixed this any time in the last fifty or sixty years, but didn't; we can fix it any time in the next fifty or sixty years, but probably won't.

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and this is why the region will continue to economically/socially suffer [[but mostly the poorer communities) for years to come.. ah well..

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

That is not what the people or the politicos want. Both have been very vocal and when planners presented them several options, they chose the train instead. This was not selected in a vacuum.

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Even more importantly from the standpoint of practicality, it isn't what the people providing the private portion of the funding want. They view this as a way of improving the image of greater Downtown and the attractiveness of the Woodward corridor. The actual transportation benefits of the line, running curbside with no dedicated lane, are probably minor, and in any case not central to the reason it is being built. Buses would not accomplish the same thing.

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Originally Posted by mwilbert

Even more importantly from the standpoint of practicality, it isn't what the people providing the private portion of the funding want. They view this as a way of improving the image of greater Downtown and the attractiveness of the Woodward corridor. The actual transportation benefits of the line, running curbside with no dedicated lane, are probably minor, and in any case not central to the reason it is being built. Buses would not accomplish the same thing.

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In other words, a linear people mover and parking shuttle.

Groundbreaking is not starting tomorrow as expected

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Originally Posted by Hermod

In other words, a linear people mover and parking shuttle.

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Am I supposed to think that is a bad thing? Certainly this isn't the light rail line I would build if I were king, but I'm not, and this is what is in prospect. It will do what a short light rail line running in traffic can do. From a transportation perspective, that isn't much different from what buses could do. From the standpoint of changing people's perceptions of the Woodward corridor and greater downtown, and perhaps the city, it probably is, and clearly that is what the backers think. Maybe they will turn out to be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by stasu1213

Groundbreaking is not starting tomorrow as expected

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I know you are skeptical of this project, but they are starting work on the line tomorrow. The ceremonial groundbreaking, which is completely irrelevant to anything, isn't until September. If you want to think that means that the project isn't really going to happen, OK, but in reality it doesn't mean anything.

The initial report in June was the Groundbreaking was to begin July 28. I would agree with you if this was happening in any other city. Dtroit has a history of saying one thing and then going back and changing the report or giving a play on words especially pertaining to this light rail system which I wouldn't be surprised won't happen

Stasu1213, an electronic street sign on Woodward has been announcing that construction would begin on July 28, 2014. Matt Cullen, head of the M1 project, was on Flashpoint Sunday morning indicating the construction timeline. It's gonna happen.

I have seen the naysayers on here and in the papers write that this rail line is a waste of money, especially taxpayer money. It's sad to here how uninformed many in this metropolitan area are about this project and where the money is coming from. Regarding money, I see two benefits to this new rail line: one, it should cut down on millions of dollars in maintenance costs spent annually; and two, that light rail, because it is run on battery and/or electricity, is a cleaner mode of transportation than diesel spewing busses. No explanation needed here.

First off, rail cars don't need tires or have overworked engines, needing constant maintenance from mechanics to repair them like busses do. What you hear from the heads of DDOT and SMART are statements that the busses have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and that they are in constant need of repair, or that they need to be replaced. I believe that if people saw the yearly expenses to maintain the bus systems here and then looked at the budgets of maintaining a light rail system from cities that have them, then I firmly believe that they would change their attitudes in favor of light rail. Also, because light rail needs fewer repairs, there's no delays in service like that of busses. Maybe someone can find out the breakdown of running light rail versus busses. I'll see what I can find.

The second benefit light rail has is that because it runs on battery and/or electricity, it is a cleaner mode of transportation than diesel spewing busses. Again, no explanation needed here.

In summary, one must always compare upfront costs with long terms costs when comparing two investments. I am confident that light rail costs over the years will be cheaper than the costs of running busses. Also, I think once people see that light rail is cheaper in the long run, they'll be open to expanding the line to Birmingham or Pontiac.

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Originally Posted by royce

Stasu1213, an electronic street sign on Woodward has been announcing that construction would begin on July 28, 2014. Matt Cullen, head of the M1 project, was on Flashpoint Sunday morning indicating the construction timeline. It's gonna happen.

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The same comments were responded to me a few yesrs back and also last year when the Groundbreaking was scheduled. It will happed but when. Cmon. This project had been set back since 2007 or 2008 wjen Gilbert and others want to build it then. Everyone need to study the psttern pertaining to change of construction start date.

My goodness it started! On Friday I had my doubts due to some of the approvals I had to make.

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Originally Posted by royce

I have seen the naysayers on here and in the papers write that this rail line is a waste of money, especially taxpayer money. It's sad to here how uninformed many in this metropolitan area are about this project and where the money is coming from. Regarding money, I see two benefits to this new rail line: one, it should cut down on millions of dollars in maintenance costs spent annually; and two, that light rail, because it is run on battery and/or electricity, is a cleaner mode of transportation than diesel spewing busses. No explanation needed here.

First off, rail cars don't need tires or have overworked engines, needing constant maintenance from mechanics to repair them like busses do. What you hear from the heads of DDOT and SMART are statements that the busses have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and that they are in constant need of repair, or that they need to be replaced. I believe that if people saw the yearly expenses to maintain the bus systems here and then looked at the budgets of maintaining a light rail system from cities that have them, then I firmly believe that they would change their attitudes in favor of light rail. Also, because light rail needs fewer repairs, there's no delays in service like that of busses. Maybe someone can find out the breakdown of running light rail versus busses. I'll see what I can find.

The second benefit light rail has is that because it runs on battery and/or electricity, it is a cleaner mode of transportation than diesel spewing busses. Again, no explanation needed here.

In summary, one must always compare upfront costs with long terms costs when comparing two investments. I am confident that light rail costs over the years will be cheaper than the costs of running busses. Also, I think once people see that light rail is cheaper in the long run, they'll be open to expanding the line to Birmingham or Pontiac.

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No doubt about it, electric rail cars are cheaper to operate than diesel powered buses.

On the other hand, the rails and overhead wire have much greater costs than the street for the buses. One of the reasons for trolley abandonment in Detroit was that the rails and their roadbeds were plain worn out and the investment costs to rebuild them were so much higher than paving them over and running buses.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

My goodness it started! On Friday I had my doubts due to some of the approvals I had to make.

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Yes, it has started. Now the naysayers will rule for the next 2 years.

"All things must pass"
-George Harrison

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Originally Posted by Hermod

In other words, a linear people mover and parking shuttle.

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Better than the one that goes in circles, at least.... Reminds me of my favorite transit quote. "There's a problem with loops, and it's so obvious that it's easy to forget: very few people want to travel in circles." ;)

Anyway, I think this will actually turn out to be more useful than a lot of people are expecting. Nobody visiting Detroit for fun rides Detroit buses. Many people visiting Detroit will ride this streetcar. That's just how it works in a country where riding a bus is assumed to imply poverty. And being able to park once, then visit all of DIA/WSU/Midtown/Comerica/Pizzarena/Fox/Downtown will be a real benefit that makes visiting any of those single venues more attractive. It even connects to Amtrak. That's a pretty good bang for the buck on a 3 mile segment.

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Originally Posted by Junjie

Better than the one that goes in circles, at least.... Reminds me of my favorite transit quote. "There's a problem with loops, and it's so obvious that it's easy to forget: very few people want to travel in circles." ;)

Anyway, I think this will actually turn out to be more useful than a lot of people are expecting. Nobody visiting Detroit for fun rides Detroit buses. Many people visiting Detroit will ride this streetcar. That's just how it works in a country where riding a bus is assumed to imply poverty. And being able to park once, then visit all of DIA/WSU/Midtown/Comerica/Pizzarena/Fox/Downtown will be a real benefit that makes visiting any of those single venues more attractive. It even connects to Amtrak. That's a pretty good bang for the buck on a 3 mile segment.

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It would be a good idea for the Midtown/New Center area to start getting better retail especially a City Target inside New Center One so commuters will have a destination to go to when traveling on the light rail from downtown

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

My goodness it started! On Friday I had my doubts due to some of the approvals I had to make.

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You can buy ME lunch!

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Originally Posted by 48307

You can buy ME lunch!

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Sure meet me on Woodward. Texas de Brazil? We will eat, I will excuse myself to go to the bathroom and dine and dash on ya! :)