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You know the old saying, about not being able to distinguish shit from Shinola?
i found this article very interesting, even though i don't own and can't afford Shinola's wares. like the "Made In Detroit" brand of t-shirts that were discovered to be made nowhere near Detroit, it would seem that Shinola's brand is mostly hype, as their stuff isnt really made here either.
http://four-pins.com/style/shinola-detroits-misguided-white-knight/
Another BS story by someone who has never done anything but bitch
Is assembling not apart of manufacturing? Like jesus christ, do the mineral ores that the metal is made from have to be mined from under Detroit to satisfy people?
To anyone who has read the thread about the 4 large SHINOLA timepieces in DetroitYES, this is old news. We already knew that the parts were from Switzerland.
Anyone who has even gone to the SHINOLA website knew that already as well... except for this Jon Moy blogger...
Oh and who is Jon Moy?? After reading some of his fashin' bashin'... probably a cross between Sean Hannity and Martha Stewart... :eek:
Nothing to get indignant over that we didn't already know... :p
FYI: Stroh's beer is still available, but no longer brewed in Detroit.....:[[
I didn't realize Stroh still billed themselves as a "Detroit" beer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirnoff
What a garbage article. Apparently he has never heard of the globalized world. His rant on the raw denim was complete bullshit as well. These kind of articles piss me off. This guy is a leech. Call me when he employs anyone from the city. You know, something the company he bashes is actually doing.
Someone should buy him a copy of "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman.
Sure hope no one tells this guy that, except for the Grand Cherokee, Chrysler vehicles aren't really Imported From Detroit.
This author is just a complainer. I'm sure the Shinola guys are laughing all the way to the bank. Every run of 2,000 watches costing $650 is $1.3 million in revenue. Even if the net were only 20% of that [[and that would be very low), they still clear millions a year. God bless them. The purpose of being in business is to make money.
The factory they built is scalable to 500,000 units a year - meaning that even if they went considerably downscale, they could become bigger than Fossil and still make money hand over fist.
Someone put it best when they said that Detroit needs to get over the loser mentality that gets its shorts in a knot when anyone else becomes successful. But I'd hazard that Moy, for calling it "his" city, is a suburban kid who moved to somewhere else and is now preaching some kind of faux Detroit religion. His comments about poverty in Detroit are disingenuous not just for his disconnection from the issue but also given that he is a critic of luxury goods.
HB
What about the Durango or the Viper?Quote:
Originally Posted by 48202
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Durango
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Viper
I think according to the author's standards none of those would be made in Detroit. The standard seems to be assembled in Detroit of 100% Detroit made components. I would add that all of the Detroit made components should be made of Detroit sourced raw materials. I hope the mines and rubber plantations are thriving in Detroit. Why not throw in a requirement for local energy, locally printed money for financing, and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Of course, there are a lot of companies in the Detroit area, many of whom are subsidiaries of non-Detroit parent corps, that don't feel the need to market themselves in such an obnoxious way.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
Its interesting that people from the Detroit area would find it "obnoxious" for companies providing jobs in Detroit to say that they are in Detroit. I guess Detroit's image is already one of a thriving economic area?Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
It would be interesting if that were the case, but I don't think it is. I certainly didn't say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
Curious though, given your tangent, why the thousands of other companies in the area aren't doing the same thing.
Because...Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
1 - Most people don't care where their stuff is made.
2 - Claiming something is "made" in a particular place, when nearly everything is assembled from parts made in other places, invites ridiculous "gotcha" articles like the one in the original post.
Forget Friedman, this guy needs to start at Econ 101 -
http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl1.html
tldr version: Making something as simple as a pencil is incredibly complicated.
How about the Detroit Pistons [[Auburn Hills), channel 2 & 7 [[Southfield), channel 56 wtvs [[Wixom)? They all tout the Detroit label. Why not get on their case?
Perhaps because "Detroit" as a branding strategy is only starting to have some level of cache as opposed to be associated with decline and ruin. I, for one, welcome that change.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Maybe they'll start a trend that "Made In Detroit" didn't get off the ground. Speaking of which, didn't that company get a lot of grief, too?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
For what it's worth, you can criticize a company's decisions or marketing without wishing them any ill will. You can wish them success while questioning their choices. It would serve many here to remove some emotion from their posts and look at the arguments logically. Of course, the entire four-pins article was emotionally charged and easily dismissed.
I think this is the point... its a "branding strategy" and has nothing at all to do with "american manufacturing". The whole spiel is that it costs more to make stuff here, but when we make it we make quality stuff and quality costs money. Fine. I'll buy that. But they aren't "making" it here. A Texas company has set up an assembly center here for parts sourced internationally. they're assembling it here. Is "made in detroit" a semantics game in the era of globalism? maybe. I guess what I'm looking for with this whole "made in detroit" stuff is that Detroit is somehow significant for the products' creation or inception.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
If they thought "made in Chicago" would allow them to assemble and sell watches for more...they'd be there talking about how manufacturing isn't dead in chicago....look we're "making watches here"...blah blah.
You're buying a fossil watch at 7x the cost of just buying a fossil.
none of this should be construed as a hope they fail... they are a net benefit to the employment situation. Just not sure how long they'll last.
Exactly to the point. Until the next big thing comes along.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
There are a few valid points in the article. Any kind of sales pitch that attempts to morally nudge you into buying a product has always made me gag, and it's basically Shinola's whole brand identity. Beyond that, the article lost me when it said there's a lack of grocery stores in Detroit; therefore Shinola shouldn't sell juice. Pretty much confirmed this person is just an outsider ranting.
At least Shinola keeps their suppliers in the U.S [[Great Lakes). The leather used for their watch's etc., is supplied from a manufacturer in Chicago named the Horween Leather Company. Keeping it local!
Great article: http://www.wbez.org/news/selling-bik...c-pride-109960
Sixty assembly jobs and growing; second line added; located in the city....
I don't quite see a problem.
Well, obviously not. You're ignoring the actual complaint.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
No I'm not. It's just a way of saying I think the original complaint is baseless.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
I'm glad to see someone besides me is seeing past the smoke and mirrors of the company named Shinola. On their overpriced wallets and watches I won't hazard an opinion, but as a cyclist, I was rather interested in the bicycles. When I visited the shop, I spoke with the guy behind the bike counter -- "So I realize you probably don't make the components [[derailleurs, brakes, etc.), but you make the frames here" -- "Well, no we buy them from X...." -- "Well, with your watch-and-wallet leather business, certainly you make the saddles" -- "No, we buy those from Y......" -- "So what DO you make yourselves?" Turns out, nothing -- all pre-manufactured parts simply assembled on site; no more than any decent mom-and-pop bike shop does, but at ten times the cost.
FYI, I know there is at lest one, and possibly more, genuine bike frame manufacturer working in Detroit.
It's great you have an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
Do you dislike the marketing tactics of any company? Big fan of the super sleazy American Apparel?
But do they manufacture the frame of Detroit-made metal? Or do they just bend and play with metal from - OMG - some place else? If so, they don't "manufacture" the frame in Detroit, do they?Quote:
Originally Posted by CleveBill
Some local perspective. As opposed to that guy in New York claiming to be a Detroiter.
http://www.freep.com/article/2014040...-fahle-made-in
I'm still surprised that disapproving of a company's gross marketing strategies is "baseless".
Sure, they do manufacture. They do much more than assemble.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Nothing is is more inherently "Detroit" than the assembly line. Perhaps you've heard of Henry Ford .
Do they forge their own metal? Or does someone supply a bunch of components that they weld [["assemble") together?Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
No kidding. Assembly is what made Detroit a world class city, and people are complaining that assembling something here isn't Detroit enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
that isn't what's being said. I wish people would stop saying that it is. This is Kid Rock screaming about how detroit he is while growing up in Romeo and making his beer in Webberville and his Made in Detroit label in Warren. At some point can't we call people out for being poseurs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
What is being said is this group is claiming some "detroitness" some tie to american manufacturing that the world says Detroit can't do... But what ARE they doing? Nothing that can't be done literally ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.
There is nothing...none...zilch...that makes Shinola a "detroit" thing OTHER than this is where they decided to set up shop to put all the pieces they sourced elsewhere together... and apparently did so based on market testing the Detroit "brand".
and for the eleventybillionth time that is not saying they are not a net positive for the employment picture. Just making a rather small point about the marketing [[and insane markup) and silliness of it.
I'm saying Shinola's...like Bob Ritchie's... "made in detroit" claim is literally a meaningless statement at this point because it is a marketing contrivance. Maybe in the age of globalism "made in {_____}" is always meaningless. Again though, as I've stated before, all I want to see is some connection to Detroit, some link, that makes the whole shtick have some meaning. If these people from Texas found "Made in Gary, IN" market tested better and carried more cache than Detroit.....they'd be in Gary.
That is all.
Are you implying Ford only assembled? Because that's what Shinola does.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
No, they "manufacture", by definition. They don't simply "assemble", by definition. You're the one using these words. Understand them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
I don't think anyone has made this argument, aside from those misunderstanding the actual argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
Most comments are concerning their marketing/branding without disparaging them as a company or what they produce [[aside from those who don't value high quality goods).
If I buy a Waterford frame from Wisconsin and a bunch of Shimano components from Nashbar.com, but assemble it in Detroit, can I say I have a "MADE IN DETROIT" bike?
I mean, at least I'm from the Detroit area...unlike Fossil.
But is it an insane markup relative to the typical markup for clothes, accessories, lifestyle stuff or other such products? There's a reason Coach or Marc Jacobs are multi-million or billion dollar companies. Even at the low end, you can buy something from Target for $8 dollars and maybe it cost Target $2, an insane markup if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
There has been a lot of discussion about Shinola but I've yet to hear from someone who really knows watches on this board. Personally, I've heard from someone who collects watches and who owns a Shinola watch say that they are good watches and that I should get one. But he didn't say why or what makes them different, just that they are good watches. With Shinola, are you getting a $1,000 watch for $600 or a $40 watch for $600? I don't know. I'm interested.
I think the Detroit script on the watch is cool. I've paid extra for kitchen knives made from quality material and at one time I paid extra for Tigers or Red Wings gear, so how much extra am I paying for quality materials or for the Detroit script on a watch? How good are these Shinola watches? For starters, the lifetime guarantee is plus.
I like how the bikes are all black, like the first Ford cars. I'll probably get one now that the weather is getting warmer.
actually, if you check Websters, it lists assembly as a synonym for manufacture. And by your definition, cars are not manufactured. Cars parts are simply assembled. Jeeps are not made at Jefferson North; they are only assembled there. Its nice that one firm makes bike frames in the city if they do [[too bad they don't "manufacture" a whole bike though). Its also nice that another firm assembles bikes with a skilled workforce.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
I think that its great that someone is marketing the Detroit workforce as the reason that a product is well made.
Shinola's assembly model does harken back to the early days of the auto industry. For the first twenty years, the big auto brands bought and assembled most of their components from other companies. They started consolidating in the 20's, with GM buying Fisher and other suppliers, and Henry Ford trying to do everything from steel making to planting rubber trees.
Unfortunately, your misunderstandings and emotions are clouding your judgment on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
There is a definitional difference and automakers do more than assemble. This is just a matter of fact.
This is telling, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
You think a marketing lie is great. I certainly do not.
Is a Detroit bakery's loaf of bread not "local" if they dont mill their own flour and use King Author brand instead?
Is a custom made dress shirt not "local" if the fabric or thread weren't produced here?
Not all businesses are able produce everything from "scratch", stories like Vernors are stuff of legend.
Not all businesses plaster "Made In Detroit" all over their product or advertising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbest
except that workforce didn't actually exist and they all needed to be trained...according to Shinola. Detroit is completely irrelevant to the assembly of anything Shinola makes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
Not quite true, IMO, Detroit IS relevant because of their marketing strategy. They're currently riding the crest. Good for them, good for Detroit, and welcome! Hope they get it to the point they're running 24/7. I just want to separate the #$%! from Shinola.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Read the thread. This is not the issue and it's been explained multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbest
You know, except for the fact that Detroit is where they assemble/make the things. How is that irrelevant? They chose to be in Detroit because of its manufacturing history. They could have went anywhere they wanted. Why is it a problem that they are using Detroit's manufacturing history to their advantage? Would people have rather seen them go somewhere else?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Yes. Thank you. That is the point. They are completely and totally unconnected to Detroit outside of the marketing campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
Here's another good idea that's going to bring jobs and publicity to Detroit:
https://www.facebook.com/detroitpackard
No, they are completely and totally CONNECTED to Detroit, because this is where they operate. If they had moved to Portland, they may have utilized a "Made in Portland" campaign. I just don't understand how advertising that you are local could ever be considered a bad thing, just because you could be somewhere else. Isn't that kind of the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Actually, many posters on this thread have made the point numerous times that the watches or bikes are being "assembled" and not "manufactured" in Detroit, so its a major part of the thread to others, even if it may not be to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
The other part of the thread seems to be that its inappropriate to highlight the skill of the Detroit workers in a "marketing" campaign. I tend to think that anything that portrays Detroit in a good light, and makes people think that perhaps its a good place to do business is not a bad thing. I guess ruin porn is more to their liking. Certain posters even seem to think that training workers to do a new type of skilled assembly is a bad thing. I guess bringing a new type of enterprise to the area is not seen as desirable for some reason.
There is a difference between advertising you are local, scrappy, start up doing well by doing good and pretending to be one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
AGAIN, this is not to say they should pack up and leave because they aren't detroit enough. I'm glad they decided to invest here. Just saying the only reason they are here is because a venture capital firm did some market testing and thinks gritty detroit street cred will sell more watches.
Their entire marketing campaign makes GENEROUS use of ruin porn. Doing so, was the entire reason behind the offense taken in the article that set this thread off.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
Quote:
This idea that people would be surprised by how human and artistic and talented Detroit's citizens are if they just came and visited is ludicrous and emblematic of a new type of gentrification, one that seems even more insidious than what has occurred in, say, Brooklyn. Shinola and other entrepreneurs market themselves as white knights, swooping in to save the noble savages. They help assuage the guilt associated with gentrification and consumerism by pointing out how strong and proud and culturally important the natives truly are—that simply by choosing to be in Detroit, Shinola is somehow better than other companies selling similar products. Shinola is using my city as its shill, pushing a manufactured, outdated and unrealistic ideal of America
Renovating work space, employing workers, opening a store in the city, makes a business unconnected to Detroit? Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
What makes a business "connected" to Detroit? If the owners grandpa came up from Kentucky in 1922 to work in an assembly plant?
The only reason GalaxE Solutions is here is because they think Detroit street cred will sell more outsourcing. "Outsource to Detroit"? They are not a scrappy start up doing well by doing good. The horrors!Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I'd like an example of how the marketing campaign uses GENEROUS use of ruin porn. I think that exists mostly in your head.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Their website actually lists where all components are from.
http://www.shinola.com/customer-serv...resources/faqs
"Our hope is that we can cultivate a cottage industry of suppliers who will move their operations to Detroit in order to supply us with needed components."
Perhaps you should start a cottage industry to supply them. I hear Detroit needs some more "scrappy" start-ups after all.
Also from the website:
"Why not accept that manufacturing is gone from this country? Why not let the rust and weeds finish what they started? Why not just embrace the era of disposability? And why didn't we buy a warmer coat before we moved here?
Through three Detroit winters, we’ve asked ourselves these questions. And worked not to find our answer, but to build it."
Gee, I guess they are trying to look like they've lived here forever....
JEEPERS, I can't believe I've been here my whole life and NEVER heard of them! @ least they're honest about the meat from Taiwan "Artisan crafted Coney Island Hot Dogs hand assembled in Detroit, Michigan. We are more than just a hot dog company, we are a lifestyle brand." I want to shape MY lifestyle after a Packard hot dog. I just hope Poughkeepsie doesn't gain notoriety, I'd hate to think what the job loss would do to Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
I was talking about the orginal article's author's opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
yes I know.Quote:
Their website actually lists where all components are from.
I'm perfectly happy working for a large, evil, multinational corporation. Also, maybe instead of dropping 15 million on a TriBeCa NYC flagship store, they could assist/entice a few to move/set up here?Quote:
"Our hope is that we can cultivate a cottage industry of suppliers who will move their operations to Detroit in order to supply us with needed components."
Perhaps you should start a cottage industry to supply them. I hear Detroit needs some more "scrappy" start-ups after all.
Ok, look, THIS is the point. If that's the mission statement, then why not actually make the watch movement here then? The "hard" part about the watch is the movement. the guts. its the stuff that separates a fossil[[who uses the same firm for their innards as Shinola does) from a Rolex. It's the "manufacturing" that we don't do here anymore that they claim they are doing. They are a texas firm assembling stuff here after the parts were manufactured elsewhere.Quote:
"Why not accept that manufacturing is gone from this country? Why not let the rust and weeds finish what they started? Why not just embrace the era of disposability?
You say that is a distinction without a difference... fine. I think that is a bit like saying Toyota is an American company because it has plants here and uses domestic suppliers.
For the 5th? 6th? fucking time though.... I don't care that they assemble the stuff here. I'm happy they are here. However, I'm also saying there is no reason they are here other than they liked the marketing aspect of it. Which again... is just fine. I'm just kind of put off by falseness of it.
I mean, is it american watch when the movement is swiss and the dials, hands, crystal and case are chinese? Again, as I said before, maybe "made in ____" is never true in the age of globalism, but if you're going to slap it on every piece of your marketing material and claim it as a company ethos...maybe it should be?Quote:
In 60 years or so, a grandfather will finally be able to pass down an American wristwatch.
I think context is lost on you, which makes any sort of reasonable dialogue a lost cause. This is entirely related to their phony marketing. Nobody has claimed they are a bad thing outside of the context of their marketing. Quit being disingenuous.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
It's simply co-opting an image to sell goods. There's not a genuine connection. They're a Texas company who purchased a New York name and set up one of their many locations in Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
As bailey, myself, and many others have said...we're glad the company is doing business in Detroit. We'd just prefer they didn't market themselves dishonestly.
Their marketing is not phony. They are using a skilled Detroit workforce to make a quality product. They make the point that skilled workers make a good product, and that Detroit at least used to be known for such a workforce, and is therefore a good location to start a business that makes things. They make the point that there is no history of watchmaking in Detroit, but they might be starting one. They note on their website that they have been in Detroit for all of 3 years. They note on their website that assembly is 100% in Detroit, but that the parts are made elsewhere [[although at one is listed as Michigan made) and that they try to source as many parts domestically as possible. They also say they'd like to develop local suppliers. They were very upfront that the big clocks were not made in Michigan as nobody does that, but that they used the only domestic firm that makes them. And now these interlopers are partnering with Midtown Detroit on a new green alley project! The nerve of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Sometimes Detroiters remind me of folks in some insular little town in the boondocks where everyone knows everyone, and anyone else is an outsider even after being there for 5 or 10 years.
If a new tech firm locates to Silicon Valley and says they did so because its the tech center of the world, and markets itself as being in Silicon Valley, nobody says its disingenuous. Nobody hoots or hollers that they have ties to some other city or state. But maybe that's one of the differences between an area like Detroit, where people have forgotten what its like to live somewhere that people want to move to and become a part of and claim as their own, and a place like California where that is the norm.
Yeah, I know, you buy into it. We all know it. You don't have to keep repeating yourself and missing the argument entirely.
Not everyone is as easily taken and can see nuance. Some people are discerning. You'll have to accept that.
Could easily say the same in the other direction. Some of us are ok with it, some aren't. Doesn't seem like either side is very interested in being convinced otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
I'm so glad you are so discerning, Oh Wise Poo-Bah of the Motor City.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Quite an interesting non-response to my Silicon Valley analogy.
Brian Dickerson made an interesting comparison [[in interview in the link I posted earlier) between his first news job Miami where 2 of 400 workers were native of Miami and the newsroom in Detroit where he was the ONLY non-Detroiter. It speaks volumes about Detroit's provincialism.
Dammit, now people are going to think that Shinola, Detroit, and bikes are somehow related.
http://www.bicycling.com/ride-maps/f...14-_-ride_here
Talked to some of the Shinola folks at the Detroit Bike Expo a few weekends ago. Seemed like nice people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RO_Resident
They got to be nice. The prices they sell those for seem outrageous! $2-$3k is a ton of dough for most folks.
Are the frames Titanium, Fiber Carbon, or something else that's special? That's an AWFUL lot of money for a run-of-the-mill bike.
Agreed, but those who aren't are constantly having their argument misrepresented by those who are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
Really? You've ignored every counter analogy in this thread! Unbelievable.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
Furthermore, your "analogy" wasn't analogous enough to make a response. If the SV company was doing the same thing as Shinola? It would be just as disingenuous, obviously.
No. They're nice handmade steel frames from Waterford Bikes in Wisconsin. They're not "performance" bikes, which can get close to $10K.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
I guess it's not 1983 anymore? LOL! I thought my Calnago was tipping the scales @ close to $1200!Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Nice to see that the president of Shinola is investing in living in the city.
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...an-village.php
Good steel frames are insanely expensive because the mass-producers have moved to AL, and in that context, Shinola is not very expensive at all. They're lovely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
HB
I assume by "AL" you mean "aluminum" and not "Alabama."Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggybear
Just in case others were :confused: too.
@ $2500, considering the caliber of parts you're getting, it's definitely no bargain. However, you do get the satisfaction of saying "I own one". I'm glad to hear the owner decided to also invest in a neighborhood, and not just Midtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggybear
This is only indirectly related to Shinola as the complex is gaining a new hipsterish barber shop, Fellow Barber. Its just so strange to see Manhattan/Brooklyn/San Francisco/Midtown Detroit as locations for a company, not that I'm complaining.
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...barbershop.php
Religious zealots and radials from left and right often castigate those not as pure as they are -- ignoring how good someone/something is -- and focusing on how bad/imperfect they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
How much are haircuts, $110-$150?
Photo taken yesterday of a shop window located in Toronto's high-end shopping district: