Can we change this dilemma or can we only move forward?

I'm personally not from Michigan and I was wondering are suburban Detroiters scared of Detroit out of almost pure speculation? I really don't want to spark a city vs. suburb debate, really. But it seems that people in most suburbs in different cities let the crime kind of just roll off the top. I've talked to ALOT of people from the suburbs about Detroit rebirth[[not comeback, but rebirth), and the conversation goes straight south. Everything from[[mostly) racial speculation to past failures of a comeback. It seems that Detroit now realizes that it has to change not reincarnate the past, no matter how economically impossible it is, is there any way of changing peoples opinion or just change the younger, more important, people to the city. So I guess my questions are most people in other cities like this or is this kind of a Detroit thing? And what do you thank the future will hold? To be honest I haven't talked to a single educated young person who doesn't like Detroit. Like I said I honestly don't want to spark a heated debate over the issue but honestly this fear of the city is embarassing on both sides of 8 mile. I'm sorry if I offend anybody.FYI I'm white and just fine and happy.

Question #1: It's a Michigan thing.

Question #2: A continued rapid decline of Detroit proper and a continued slow decline of the region/state as a whole.

What makes it "pure Michigan" is the fact that those who are pessimistic about a future Detroit far outweighs the optimistic about a future Detroit. Add to the fact that Metro Detroit is way less transient than other metros which makes this metro seemingly more conservative. Not conservative in a political sense, but any sort of change is very slow coming and often met with much opposition.

From what I've noticed, most of the younger people moving to Detroit never grew up here and many of the suburbanites have had some sort of family connection dating back a couple of generations. You get two wildly different viewpoints from either group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YounginDetroit

I'm personally not from Michigan and I was wondering are suburban Detroiters scared of Detroit out of almost pure speculation?

---

I have never heard of someone "scared" of Detroit. I know plenty of people who are cautious, for very good reason. Really only people ignorant of Detroit would not exercise due caution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YounginDetroit

I've talked to ALOT of people from the suburbs about Detroit rebirth[[not comeback, but rebirth), and the conversation goes straight south.

---

Maybe because these people know Detroit better than you, and know this "rebirth" talk has been going on 40 years now, long before your were born. In the meantime, half the city left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YounginDetroit

I'm personally not from Michigan and I was wondering are suburban Detroiters scared of Detroit out of almost pure speculation? I really don't want to spark a city vs. suburb debate, really. But it seems that people in most suburbs in different cities let the crime kind of just roll off the top. I've talked to ALOT of people from the suburbs about Detroit rebirth[[not comeback, but rebirth), and the conversation goes straight south. Everything from[[mostly) racial speculation to past failures of a comeback. It seems that Detroit now realizes that it has to change not reincarnate the past, no matter how economically impossible it is, is there any way of changing peoples opinion or just change the younger, more important, people to the city. So I guess my questions are most people in other cities like this or is this kind of a Detroit thing? And what do you thank the future will hold? To be honest I haven't talked to a single educated young person who doesn't like Detroit. Like I said I honestly don't want to spark a heated debate over the issue but honestly this fear of the city is embarassing on both sides of 8 mile. I'm sorry if I offend anybody.FYI I'm white and just fine and happy.

---

I'm a mid 30's suburbanite who spent 2 years at Wayne State and still visit Detroit frequently for both business and recreation. There are great things about Detroit, but I'll be blunt and say that my rose colored glasses for the city wore out rather quickly. For me the industrial grittiness and "cool" factor have been overshadowed by the violence, theft, vandalism and dysfunction I have encountered during my time in the city.

So to better answer your question it's not just speculation, racism or the memory of past failures that makes many suburbanites leery or fearful of Detroit. Those things may play some role, but for many of us it's actual experiences here and the bad memories of dealing with things that should not, and do not happen elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YounginDetroit

I'm personally not from Michigan and I was wondering are suburban Detroiters scared of Detroit out of almost pure speculation? I really don't want to spark a city vs. suburb debate, really. But it seems that people in most suburbs in different cities let the crime kind of just roll off the top. I've talked to ALOT of people from the suburbs about Detroit rebirth[[not comeback, but rebirth), and the conversation goes straight south. Everything from[[mostly) racial speculation to past failures of a comeback. It seems that Detroit now realizes that it has to change not reincarnate the past, no matter how economically impossible it is, is there any way of changing peoples opinion or just change the younger, more important, people to the city. So I guess my questions are most people in other cities like this or is this kind of a Detroit thing? And what do you thank the future will hold? To be honest I haven't talked to a single educated young person who doesn't like Detroit. Like I said I honestly don't want to spark a heated debate over the issue but honestly this fear of the city is embarassing on both sides of 8 mile. I'm sorry if I offend anybody.FYI I'm white and just fine and happy.

---

It's complicated, and the first thing you have to accept is that everyone is correct, even when they are in conflict with each other.

My experience of Detroit is vastly, vastly different from people who live even 2 miles north of me. And it's extremely different from someone who grew up here in the 80s and left. And even more different from the people who grew up in the 50s and left.

In my opinion, it's far more useful to simply give up on trying to change anyone's opinion about what will happen in the future. That's a waste of time...it's like asking a Red Sox fan a Yankees fan to debate over which team will have a better run over the next decade and expecting them to find a consensus conclusion.

Focus your efforts on building the change you want to see. 5 years ago, people thought I was crazy for moving into Corktown. Those same people are now asking for my realtor's phone number. 5 years from now, they may be living here and regret it. Or they may be living here and convincing their friends to do the same.

We don't know, and we can't know.

Bham is right. To ignore the reality and the risks of the city is foolish and a recipe for a cruel experience and a jaded association with the city. Of course, on the flipside you have many people who think that what happened yesterday is the same as what will happen tomorrow...they are not the visionaries who see a burnt out block and have the wherewithal to transform it into vibrant healthy community.

The one thing I know is that we're seeing the intersection of many people's ideological realities coming to their breaking points. We see unions that have essentially accepted pension cuts and are now just debating how much of them to concede. We have lifetime Detroiters who are giving up on the city because of bad it's gotten. We have lifetime Detroiters who are saying they've seen more police protecting their neighborhood in the last 6 months than in the last 20 years. We have the Michigan State Police running plates and arresting on outstanding warrants or towing for expired plates.

No one knows how this is all going to work out, but I think it's fair to agree that it's not as simple as looking at the past and extrapolating forward. It's also not as simple as pretending that the past didn't exist.

I'm going to do my part to try to make my corner of the city better. But I'm also going to hedge my bet and have an exit strategy if necessary.

When I was 23, I took a job my mother begged me to turn down. When I was 33, she admitted that she was wrong and should have believed in me all along. I said, "Telling me you were wrong to doubt me after I've slayed the dragon isn't the same as you believing in me when I'm starting the battle." She said, "Well, of course, but I can't do that. It's too scary. You weren't fighting a mouse, you were fighting a dragon."

That's the same with Detroit.

Work hard, be persistent, stay aware, and then let your conscience guide you. Forget about trying to convince the world. It's just energy wasted.

That's my advice.

1. there really arent many major cities like detroit that lost and kept-out a lot of the population. there are a few comparasions to new orleans because of katrina. you may want to read those articles for more info.

2. future of detroit? its easy to predict. remember those 'ghost towns' you saw in western films? thats detroit. when the gold rush aka car manufacturers left for mexico, the city dried up. same thing that happens in oil boom towns when the oil runs out. jobs are gone so people move to where the jobs are. look at flint michigan, michael moore made a documentary on flint called 'roger and me'. flint was a car city, GM headquarters. flint is a smaller city than detroit but even it isnt coming back. it has been under state emergency financial manager on and off since 2002. that should tell you how good an EFM will work in detroit haha.

3. to change peoples minds you have to change detroits situation. detroit is caught in a catch-22. it needs money to fix things, but it doesnt have the population to generate tax for what it needs.

how to fix detroit:
1. split up the city into smaller cities. detroit is gigantic and needs to shrink with its population size.

2. lets just try to fix the first step, then we'll talk step 2.

if you want real opinions ask legislators the same questions, that will show you just how boned detroit is.

Flint was named the "most dangerous city in America" by Business Insider in June 2013, based on FBI statistics.
guess rick snyders' EFM plans didnt work for flint. what makes you think they will work for detroit? its almost like there is a conspiracy to destroy these cities, these union cities. hmm, nah, thats crazy talk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by compn

its almost like there is a conspiracy to destroy these cities, these union cities. hmm, nah, thats crazy talk.

---

There is a [[weakening, but still overwhelming) policy consensus around economic and development policies that are not good for older cities. It isn't a conspiracy in the classic sense, and it developed long before the union-busting fervor of the past 35 years. Whether you like E[[F)Ms or not, they can't transcend the underlying environment that their cities exist in. It is also true that states vary in their policies regarding cities, and Michigan in general doesn't have particularly good ones, with the possible exception of education finance, where at least they made an attempt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YounginDetroit

...Like I said I honestly don't want to spark a heated debate over the issue but honestly this fear of the city is embarassing on both sides of 8 mile. I'm sorry if I offend anybody.FYI I'm white and just fine and happy.

---

You said nothing to offend anyone reasonable. Don't worry.

Several posters have made a lot of great comments. And I second them.

I will only add something I don't think gets talked about much. The effect on Detroit's collapse on individual whites. The large issue is oppression of blacks by whites for centuries in America. The small issue is what happens to individuals when a social issue is being redressed.

Many working-class whites bought their first home in Detroit, and enjoyed urban life as good or better than NYC or Chicago. Along comes the civil rights era and your son doesn't get a job with the Department in order to integrate DPD. Your daughter doesn't get into Michigan. Your property values decline as unethical realtors 'block bust'. Your kids are bused from Van Dyke and 6 to the riot Boulevard and 12th.

Changes did need to be made. Past grievances needed to be redressed. You voted for Cavanaugh and Kennedy/Johnson. You wanted change. But then the change hit you at your home. You sold your house under what you paid, and moved out. All your neighbors dispersed.

You spent 30 years never visiting Detroit again after your experience. You disowned Detroit. And your kids now want to move downtown.

I do not in any way want to diminish the pain endured by black families for decades. Change was badly needed. The other side is seldom considered. It shaped a lot of the thinking of our previous generations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

You spent 30 years never visiting Detroit again after your experience. You disowned Detroit. And your kids now want to move downtown.

I do not in any way want to diminish the pain endured by black families for decades. Change was badly needed. The other side is seldom considered. It shaped a lot of the thinking of our previous generations.

---

Wayne State Professor Hammer references the drastic need for "racial reconciliation" as an element sorely missing from the Detroit Future City plan.

There's no question that blacks have -- both historically and even in the present day -- borne the disproportionately short end of the stick when it comes to subjugation and oppression.

And at the same time, there's also no question that middle class whites have seen nothing but sh** from the last 20-30 years of policy making coming out of Detroit.

I have a great deal of sympathy when poor, mostly-black, seniors are being dislocated out of their building because of rising rents. At the same time I also have a great deal of sympathy when thousands of middle class whites [[and within the last decade, middle class blacks) were dislocated out of neighborhoods because of rising crime.

Which is worse? Being dislocated because of rising rents? Or being dislocated because of rising crime? Is there even an answer to these questions?? They are BOTH HORRIBLE.

And if there's going to be any reconciliation in the future, there needs to be some common understanding that everyone got f**d in Detroit. Oppressed minorities, the displaced poor, the destruction of Black Bottom, white flight, black flight, lenders, pensioners.

But that can't come from the top down. It needs to happen from the bottom up, too. So, it goes back to my points above...everyone who is angry in Metro Detroit became angry because of legitimately shi**y experiences that happened to them.

Making an effort to understand that is really the only thing an individual can do. But it really goes a long way. Then let go of trying to persuade them of otherwise and focus on making things better in whatever way you can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Work hard, be persistent, stay aware, and then let your conscience guide you. Forget about trying to convince the world. It's just energy wasted.

That's my advice.

---

Hear hear. Detroit has reinvented itself many times over its 3 century history and it will again. This region is strategically situated and if you look at the universities and colleges in the region remains the brain trust of america's "makers", ranging from engineering through to applied arts, now serving an overhauled industry tech model. If you look at its long history Detroit has always been a place that adapts itself to sweeping change, immigration, disaster and upheaval, and I am optimistic that it will again. This is what we do, what we always have done. The next generation from the region and other places are starting to ignore the separatism of their parents and i think we're going to eventually find that this long period of decline was a blip in Detroit's history. In the mean time there is a lot of work to do to correct the issues that are holding the city back - transit, public education and security.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

everyone got f**d in Detroit.

everyone who is angry in Metro Detroit became angry because of legitimately shi**y experiences that happened to them.

---

i aint mad at detroit. i wasnt around for any riots. no one stole my car in detroit. people are friendly. is all good to me. but when wayne county goes bankrupt in 3 years i'll probably move out of the state and will not return.

there are things the state government can do proactively to ensure that cities and counties arent going bankrupt. be it audits, reviews or prevenative laws against bribery and wasteful spending.

too bad those idiots in the senate and house are too busy fiddling with medical marijuana and gay marriage to care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

...Making an effort to understand that is really the only thing an individual can do. But it really goes a long way. Then let go of trying to persuade them of otherwise and focus on making things better in whatever way you can.

---

True. To the OP I say.... older people who lived through the worst of Detroit's racial history they may never change their ideas. All you can do is make things better.

And know that younger people both black, white and in-between come to our world without prejudice. Listen and watch them to see the future -- and to make the past become history.

With all due respect to the residents of Metro Detroit, the city won't be saved by the people who were born and raised there. I'll go as far to say that they will be the very last ones to even realize when Detroit has been reborn. I've lived in quite a few neighborhoods that have gentrified and the universal truth is that gentrification is caused by a large influx of people who aren't native to the area [[yes, I am a gentrifier). The original poster, not being a native of the Detroit area, will probably realize a rebounding Detroit far before everyone else on this thread.

Wise words and very balanced thinking CY.

Some times the line from the song Rawhide comes to mind "Don't try to understand 'em. Just rope 'em and brand 'em."

Move on with life, focus on your vision and do what you can do rather than trying to convince the unconvincable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

It's complicated, and the first thing you have to accept is that everyone is correct, even when they are in conflict with each other.

My experience of Detroit is vastly, vastly different from people who live even 2 miles north of me. And it's extremely different from someone who grew up here in the 80s and left. And even more different from the people who grew up in the 50s and left.

In my opinion, it's far more useful to simply give up on trying to change anyone's opinion about what will happen in the future. That's a waste of time...it's like asking a Red Sox fan a Yankees fan to debate over which team will have a better run over the next decade and expecting them to find a consensus conclusion.

Focus your efforts on building the change you want to see. 5 years ago, people thought I was crazy for moving into Corktown. Those same people are now asking for my realtor's phone number. 5 years from now, they may be living here and regret it. Or they may be living here and convincing their friends to do the same.

We don't know, and we can't know.

Bham is right. To ignore the reality and the risks of the city is foolish and a recipe for a cruel experience and a jaded association with the city. Of course, on the flipside you have many people who think that what happened yesterday is the same as what will happen tomorrow...they are not the visionaries who see a burnt out block and have the wherewithal to transform it into vibrant healthy community.

The one thing I know is that we're seeing the intersection of many people's ideological realities coming to their breaking points. We see unions that have essentially accepted pension cuts and are now just debating how much of them to concede. We have lifetime Detroiters who are giving up on the city because of bad it's gotten. We have lifetime Detroiters who are saying they've seen more police protecting their neighborhood in the last 6 months than in the last 20 years. We have the Michigan State Police running plates and arresting on outstanding warrants or towing for expired plates.

No one knows how this is all going to work out, but I think it's fair to agree that it's not as simple as looking at the past and extrapolating forward. It's also not as simple as pretending that the past didn't exist.

I'm going to do my part to try to make my corner of the city better. But I'm also going to hedge my bet and have an exit strategy if necessary.

When I was 23, I took a job my mother begged me to turn down. When I was 33, she admitted that she was wrong and should have believed in me all along. I said, "Telling me you were wrong to doubt me after I've slayed the dragon isn't the same as you believing in me when I'm starting the battle." She said, "Well, of course, but I can't do that. It's too scary. You weren't fighting a mouse, you were fighting a dragon."

That's the same with Detroit.

Work hard, be persistent, stay aware, and then let your conscience guide you. Forget about trying to convince the world. It's just energy wasted.

That's my advice.

---

Wise words and very balanced thinking CY.

Some times the line from the song Rawhide comes to mind "Don't try to understand 'em. Just rope 'em and brand 'em."

Move on with life, focus on your vision and do what you can do rather than trying to convince the unconvincable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

It's complicated, and the first thing you have to accept is that everyone is correct, even when they are in conflict with each other.

My experience of Detroit is vastly, vastly different from people who live even 2 miles north of me. And it's extremely different from someone who grew up here in the 80s and left. And even more different from the people who grew up in the 50s and left.

In my opinion, it's far more useful to simply give up on trying to change anyone's opinion about what will happen in the future. That's a waste of time...it's like asking a Red Sox fan a Yankees fan to debate over which team will have a better run over the next decade and expecting them to find a consensus conclusion.

Focus your efforts on building the change you want to see. 5 years ago, people thought I was crazy for moving into Corktown. Those same people are now asking for my realtor's phone number. 5 years from now, they may be living here and regret it. Or they may be living here and convincing their friends to do the same.

We don't know, and we can't know.

Bham is right. To ignore the reality and the risks of the city is foolish and a recipe for a cruel experience and a jaded association with the city. Of course, on the flipside you have many people who think that what happened yesterday is the same as what will happen tomorrow...they are not the visionaries who see a burnt out block and have the wherewithal to transform it into vibrant healthy community.

The one thing I know is that we're seeing the intersection of many people's ideological realities coming to their breaking points. We see unions that have essentially accepted pension cuts and are now just debating how much of them to concede. We have lifetime Detroiters who are giving up on the city because of bad it's gotten. We have lifetime Detroiters who are saying they've seen more police protecting their neighborhood in the last 6 months than in the last 20 years. We have the Michigan State Police running plates and arresting on outstanding warrants or towing for expired plates.

No one knows how this is all going to work out, but I think it's fair to agree that it's not as simple as looking at the past and extrapolating forward. It's also not as simple as pretending that the past didn't exist.

I'm going to do my part to try to make my corner of the city better. But I'm also going to hedge my bet and have an exit strategy if necessary.

When I was 23, I took a job my mother begged me to turn down. When I was 33, she admitted that she was wrong and should have believed in me all along. I said, "Telling me you were wrong to doubt me after I've slayed the dragon isn't the same as you believing in me when I'm starting the battle." She said, "Well, of course, but I can't do that. It's too scary. You weren't fighting a mouse, you were fighting a dragon."

That's the same with Detroit.

Work hard, be persistent, stay aware, and then let your conscience guide you. Forget about trying to convince the world. It's just energy wasted.

That's my advice.

---

Funny, and sad. As I am writing this on a train leaving Toronto for Montreal, I cant help but make hazy comparisons btwn the three cities. Toronto is all get up and go and nothing seems to hold it back.


Toronto has a few skeletons in its proverbial closet but Montreal and Detroit have a checkered history in ethnic and industrial relations that T.O. Did not have to deal with. I really find the multicultural backdrop of Toronto fascinating in that it is "In Your Face", so to speak.


None of what I witnessed in Toronto was impossible to imagine or replicate inDetroit. So many communities came together to create a semblance of union in Detroit, but again, it will always be difficult for people to understand the gravity of the afro american experience post civil war. Detroit inherited a large faction of blacks from the south, and many of their descendants have not gained as much ground as we would wish for, in the decades since emancipation was declared. The transition from slavery to a state of relative oblivious indifference or hostile reclusion results in violent inner cities for U.S. Cities. Toronto's ascent and prosperity had a bit to do with its relative distance to historical circumstances that trapped both Montreal and Detroit in their outcomes. Metro Detroit has the wealth and wherewithal to effect a better future, but will the belief in a better future drive this forth faster than say, a Chicago would?

Get back to everyone with your opinion when you are OldinDetroit. Time and experience will help you understand.

Who knows, maybe you'll be MiddleagedinSterlingHeights before you even get a chance to be OldinDetroit

so strange YOUNGINDETROIT admits to not being from Michigan even. Did you move here? Do you live Here?

Please don't tell me all old farts do not make a difference. I know the Detroit that was and the Detroit that is. I guess I live in old Detroit. Our home is now 112 yrs old. Our home is biracial.We work with neighborhood kids and I love my neighbors. I have shared some angst on line but mostly I wish our suburban brethren the community and spirit I share every day.

Proud to be Detroit!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by canuck

None of what I witnessed in Toronto was impossible to imagine or replicate in Detroit.

---

I don't see anything in Toronto applicable to Detroit.

Toronto has been ascendant for the last 50 years for two reasons- immigration and Quebec.

Obviously the Quebec situation is not applicable to Detroit, so there's immigration. Toronto gets tons of immigrants for two reasons- 1. Canada has much more liberal immigration policies than the U.S. and 2. Toronto is, by far, the largest English speaking Canadian city so it the natural destination for those immigrants.

The US will never have a Canadian-style immigration system because 1. Unlike Canada, not needed to get talent, 2. US has too many people already and 3. US has historical narrative [[9-11 and the like) and a global position of power that makes a Canada-style system impossible. You can't be World Police along with open borders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't see anything in Toronto applicable to Detroit.

Toronto has been ascendant for the last 50 years for two reasons- immigration and Quebec.

Obviously the Quebec situation is not applicable to Detroit, so there's immigration. Toronto gets tons of immigrants for two reasons- 1. Canada has much more liberal immigration policies than the U.S. and 2. Toronto is, by far, the largest English speaking Canadian city so it the natural destination for those immigrants.

The US will never have a Canadian-style immigration system because 1. Unlike Canada, not needed to get talent, 2. US has too many people already and 3. US has historical narrative [[9-11 and the like) and a global position of power that makes a Canada-style system impossible. You can't be World Police along with open borders.

---

Well the US gets a lot of its talent from overseas too. And the population growth from latin american immigration has been phenomenal in the last thirty years. Canada got a lot of immigrants via legal channels but that is a lot tougher when your southern neighbor is Mexico.

Montreal lost out to Toronto in finance and industry not to mention population due to divisiveness. In one sense the divisiveness resulted in positive cultural affirmation for the majority. The same can be said for ”The divisive dynamics played out in Detroit may be more severe than in Montreal but are similar nonetheless. We have to find ways to promote hope nd confidence in ourselves, our civic capacity and overcome the negative past.

The african american majority of Detroit´s central municipality did manage to wrest politicl power from the whites, but the victory is a bitter one in many respects, the city-burb dichotomy is maybe more alive in Detroit metro than anywhere else on the continent. All the political antics that take the steam out of Detroit´s engine need to stop. The very policies that damaged the future of Detroit; the very "Now" of Detroit need to be reversed, upturned and the potential for large projects such as modern integrated metro transit have to come to the fore.

Chicagoans wont do it for Detroiters, they are too busy grooming themselves for Chicagoland, Detroiters need to take charge.´

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I have never heard of someone "scared" of Detroit.

---

Thanks for the good hearty laugh.... at your expense... :p

I have heard people saying "It's going to take 20 years to [[make things better in the city/right the ship/make a comeback)" for the past 20 years I've been here full time. I’ve voted in every local/regional/national election. I’ve written letters and made phone calls to public officials. I’ve gone to public meetings.
Helpful public policy from the macro-level to the local level has been largely stagnant or glacier-like at best. There’s an enduring ambivalence/hostility for Detroit culturally and politically through much of the state, and much of the city’s contemporary leadership has yet to think outside of a circa-1973 box for ideas on how to plan for the future.
I was a 20-year old college dropout at first, now I’m a 40-year old college graduate and at this point I really can’t say I have any interest in starting a family here.

Everyone in the forum is saying why Detroit is not total diversity city. Why Detroit became a majority black city. It all comes down to these social requirements:

1. race

2. segregation complex

3. xenophobia

4. disinvestments

5. political corruption

That will lead to:

1. violent crime

2. poor neighborhoods

3. poor schools

4. illegal street drugs

5. loss of regional job base

6. white flight

7. black flight

Right now millions once middle class white folks who were Detroiters long ago are now grown old, retire from their almost on and off jobs from manufacturing automation alleys. They are living their happy lives in the cookie cutter ticky tacky little boxes in their suburbs. Most of them are living as far far away from 8 Mile Rd. and hitting 20 Mile Rd. as soon as possible. Most of them don't want to go back to Detroit to live or shop for fearing that some black male wear a Trayvon Martin hoodie wants to play stick-em-up and rob them blind. However the next generation of white suburban kids and young adults are moving back to Detroit, [[ not to black ghetto hoods) but in areas that are developing from Downtown Detroit to Midtown. Some of them are very careful when they go out to any Detroit hood. They are taking care business and themselves, bringing their culture to help revive our city from years of Coleman Young to Kilpatrick Era blight. In the matter of fact Detroit's white population in 2014 has been increased to over 110,000 from 89,000 from the 2010 census. from 9% to 12%. It would be over a matter of 50 to 75 years if Detroit sees more middle class white families coming back.

So to all long time white suburbanities who are now living safe and sound in ticky tacky little boxes. Come to Detroit, see its festivities, eat at their fabulous resturants, shop galore. That's where the action is and that's where your kids are going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 313WX

Question #1: It's a Michigan thing.

Question #2: A continued rapid decline of Detroit proper and a continued slow decline of the region/state as a whole.

---

Question #3 its a 'Michissippi' thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danny

Question #3 its a 'Michissippi' thing.

---

That too, but I was trying not to go there.

Interesting comments Danny. We are old ,white, adore our Detroit community. In fact my husband is out and about with a neighbor doing good deeds. Our suburban friends and family send many gifts to area children. I guess I see what I want to see. Mostly people are caring and sharing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sumas

Interesting comments Danny. We are old ,white, adore our Detroit community. In fact my husband is out and about with a neighbor doing good deeds. Our suburban friends and family send many gifts to area children. I guess I see what I want to see. Mostly people are caring and sharing.

---

Everyone chooses their own path in life. Demographics suggest that most whites moved out. Racism, safety, economics, property values, or whatever. That's can be debated. But whites staying are clearly the minority.

One wonders what would have happened if there had not been a mass migration.

Now we have a [[mass?) migration of white and multicultural youth into the City. In 50 years, will we end up like Paris with 'banlieues' on the outskirts as vibrancy heads to our core?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Now we have a [[mass?) migration of white and multicultural youth into the City. In 50 years, will we end up like Paris with 'banlieues' on the outskirts as vibrancy heads to our core?

---

Ah, the things people write on DYes. "A mass migration of whites and multicultural youth" and a future akin to Paris.

Who needs reality when you have alternate worldviews, where facts have no place? Next time I'm rolling down McNichols I'll be sure to watch out for the white and multicultural hordes overtaking the city.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Ah, the things people write on DYes. "A mass migration of whites and multicultural youth" and a future akin to Paris.

Who needs reality when you have alternate worldviews, where facts have no place? Next time I'm rolling down McNichols I'll be sure to watch out for the white and multicultural hordes overtaking the city.

---

Oh, stop being a pompous prick, Bham. Would the typical Detroiter of 85 years ago have believed it would look as it did 25 years ago? We have lived through times of tremendous upheaval, and it seems to be the only constant. It's quite possible that downtown Birmingham will not be the same until the end of time, isn't it? At some point over the next 5 billions years? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's quite possible that downtown Birmingham will not be the same until the end of time, isn't it? At some point over the next 5 billions years? :)

---

I'm not talking about the future, but the present. The claim was that Detroit was presently being overtaken by young white and multiculti hordes, so I'm very eager to see evidence of these vast invading armies of hipsters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I'm not talking about the future, but the present. The claim was that Detroit was presently being overtaken by young white and multiculti hordes, so I'm very eager to see evidence of these vast invading armies of hipsters.

---

As usual, you're firing for effect. I think we can expect to see some interesting changes in the 2020 census by block groups from downtown to the boulevard, in Corktown and Woodbridge. And it's also correct that the change generally moves out from those locuses and spreads where walking and biking are most convenient. And that we'll likely see an increasing influx of people to the city.

I mean, who would have thought in 1946 that the city and suburbs would be flipped? That the country would go from beet fields and farmers to freeways and office towers? It would have been thought of as absurd, yes? Similarly, other places have flipped, although Paris is a rather extreme example. And who would have looked at downtown New York in 1980 and thought it would ever come back.

Bham, you're smarter than this, but you seem to have some sort of blinders on, like you've shoved your head so far up the status quo's ass that you only see sunlight when it yawns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I'm not talking about the future, but the present. The claim was that Detroit was presently being overtaken by young white and multiculti hordes, so I'm very eager to see evidence of these vast invading armies of hipsters.

---

I think I said "[[mass?) migration..." precisely because I don't think its yet a mass migration. But a migration it certainly is. Compare John R and Erskine or Campus Martius of 1975 and I think you'll see the start of this 'migration'.

My point was that I believe the suburbs have major challenges coming up. Young people really like urban centers. All? No. Many of them? Yes. As DNerd pointed out, I don't think anyone in 1950's saw Detroit's decline. What happens in the neext 40 years? I'm sure we don't know. But it won't be the same place as it is today.