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I did not see that anyone had linked to this interesting article on rents in downtown and midtown. Will we finally see more construction, as rents continue to "soar"? It sure seems like some projects such as those in Capitol Park should be further along.
http://www.freep.com/article/2014012...dtown-Corktown
One of my first reactions was that people here in SF would kill for these rates...
We already have seen "more construction" over the last few years with projects on the way. Broderick, The Auburn and other in Midtown. Then you have David Whitney and Forest Arms on the way, among others that haven't seen the work quite yet [[like those in Capitol Park). I'm not sure we'll see significant increase in projects in the downtown area, it's already growing at a decent pace and an increase may not be economical to developers.
It may not be all that good for Detroit either, if some of these folks move to the suburbs, as has been mentioned in the link... :[[Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
Maybe Mayor Duggan will get behind the 8 ball and try to grow the number of "liveable" areas around the city center...
As soon as rents are high enough to pay for new development, the problem will solve itself, as there is no shortage of available land. That is when you will probably see Brush Park rapidly refill. The problem occurs because at the current time, rising rents are making subsidized development, of which there is a limited supply, more profitable, but yet not making unsubsidized development possible, so the rising rents aren't generating more housing supply.
Until that happens, the only thing you can do is what Gistok suggested, which is to try to encourage the overflow into some of the immediately adjacent areas, unfortunately a lot of those either don't have a much housing or are cut off by freeways or other barriers. Maybe the overflow could start heading toward Virginia Park or Mexicantown, or over toward Lafayette Park?
Don't forget the North End, mwilbert. That's where I'm at now. I work in Midtown, but wouldn't be able to afford to live there. No need to put soar in quotes for this working stiff. This ain't Frisco.
It just seems strange to me to have "overflow" to outlying areas when people prefer to live downtown and in midtown, and there are still many vacant buildings and empty parcels. While there has certainly been a lot of development, downtown and midtown are still quite sparsely populated. What a shame that the Statler is not still standing and available for rehab.
And please, never use the term "Frisco"....
They are tearing down the Brewsters much too soon, if only they'd have waited another six months...some investor would've seen their viability.
But watch as Danny finds a way to turn that jail fiasco into oddly secure apartments. If he has a brain, he's already on it.
LOL, I believe it is proper when used derogatorily...Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
...which points out the ridiculous hyperbole and sillyness of this article. Rents are "high" in certain microscopic [[relatively) areas of 135 square miles and the entire metro region.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
NOBODY is begin "priced out of the market" they are being priced out of one or two successful buildings or areas.. and the only reason for that is because there is just so little available in "livable" areas. The owners of the broderick, kales, lofts on Woodward..etc. are fucking ecstatic that the Statler isn't there and that no one is doing anything with Capitol Park and the city's largest private landlords are slum lords and speculators.
"priced out of the market" means you need to leave Detroit to find something affordable...not one of these people needs to leave Detroit -home of the 50 dollar house...many within sight of the place they are being "priced out" of- what these people are complaining about is that they can't afford to live in the building they want to live in.
there are roughly thirty senior citizens who would like to have a word with ol' Danny-boy about their rushed evictions...I'll dig up what I can find and report back...
If the article is correct, then we are approaching that $2.00 per sq foot that so many people have commented on that Detroit needs to get to before new developments begin to take off around here without subsides. I view this as an absolute positive. And lets be honest with ourselves, the rent in the city, even after these price hikes by landlords, is still cheap by comparison to many other city centers.
I think what we need to realize is that if we want a vibrant downtown with walk-able attractions, restaurants, venues, etc, pricing for housing and office space will not stay the same. It will go up. That's just how economics work. If you want to bitch and moan about not being able to rent a 1,800ft condo for $1000 a month anymore, go ahead. But try to be realistic here. The more desirable a place to live is, the higher cost of living. Gone are the days of $750 downtown rents in skyscrapers.
Most of the Lafeyette Park area is Co-Ops, so rents don't matter. We are a quiet area with nice parks, access to freeways, shopping is not far and at most...Safe as any Suburb.
Not quite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinman
I always find it funny when people bring up the price of rentals in cities like San Francisco, New York, Chicago and other world class cities in these discussions about Detroit. Isn't is more appropriate to bring up comparable cities like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Columbus, Toledo and Grand Rapids? I was also going to comment on the rising rent but it seems Bailey has summed it up perfectly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TTime
Well lets be accurate. Detroit was known as the Paris of the West.......:rolleyes:
Again, this seemingly odd situation exists because the current rents don't reflect current construction costs, either because the units are old or because their rehab was subsidized. The rents go up because there is a shortage of units in the specific areas under discussion, but until they go up enough to justify building new units, no new unsubsidized units are built, and the demand has to be channeled outward toward other existing buildings.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
show me your proof of lack of safety in Lafayette Park area. I have lived here since 2007. no problems. Are you one of those that says on the news " nothing ever happens like that in my neighborhood" as channel 4 is in Novi?
While there have been shootings and robberies in the area, statistically speaking, Lafayette Park Neighborhood is safer than 93% of the rest of Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinman
http://www.areavibes.com/detroit-mi/...te+park/crime/
I agree about the Brewsters! I always thought they looked structurally sound enough - and you can't beat the location. Seemed like a no-brainer to market as a rehab opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I agree and disagree with your points.
Yes, people [[myself included) can no longer afford to live in the buildings we want to live in. To say we're not being priced out of the market isn't accurate.
My rent increased 15% this year; I was recently offered a renewal rate of $1120 / mo on 582 sq ft at the Kales + I've averaged over $100/mo to heat it in the winter because the windows are old and drafty. [[2 years ago I was paying $975 on 815 sq ft here). That's in addition to the $440/ mo. I spend on auto & renters insurance to live in Detroit the legal way [[I have a 10 yr old car) + 2.4% of my income is taxed to Detroit. I was recently quoted $1600/mo for a 1bdrm at Lofts at Merchants Row and I won't get into the ridiculous hoops and pricing you have to jump through to get considered at the Broderick.
I have a great job and education. Not being cocky, but didn't see myself as a prime candidate for being priced out like this. Could I buy a house for $10K? Sure. Kinda? a) I don't want to and b) a $15K house comes with it's own issues. I've seen enough friends go through repairing stripped houses in Detroit that I know it's not where I want to be. I'd rather pay that same amount in rent every yr. for fixed costs.
I could get a decent place in downtown Ann Arbor for the same combined costs - but have a safer environment, better public services, etc. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE DETROIT AND I'M HAPPY WHERE I'M RENTING. But it's no longer worth the financial hemorrhage.
Sorry for the rant, but hopefully this puts something in perspective. I'm not bitching about losing an 1800 sq ft loft for $750. It's the total package of downtown living costs.
Unfortunately, this is part of the process. We need downtown real estate to be high rent in order for the banks to feel comfortable lending to refurbish them. And then as soon as the banks feel comfortable, it'll totally open up more supply [[at a slightly lower price) in the vacant buildings more on the outskirts of downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroithealth
It's already starting to happen...the Capitol Park rentals and the apartment replacing the Archdiocese of Detroit on Michigan Avenue will be at price point that's a little more affordable than Kales/Broderick is getting.
Til then, come out and rent in Lafayette Park or Corktown or the North End. Still great rentals out there right now.
This is short-term pain, but there will be long-term gain. Just imagine from Corktown to Lafayette Park to New Center with all the vacant buildings replaced with fully-rented high rises...
Thanks for the encouragement.Quote:
Originally Posted by corktownyuppie
So I guess on that note - I'm happy to report an actual case of the long anticipated $2/ sq ft price point.
My renewal rate is at $1.92/ sq. ft.
BUT
I was told the market rate of my unit [[for a new tenant) is:
$1220 for 582 sq ft = $2.09 sq. ft.
YAHTZEE!
The prices are rising based on hype and not objective improvement. The CVS closes at 7pm, the Papa Joe's downtown hasn't opened, and yesterday when I wanted to go to a concert in the North End and left 40 minutes early, there was no Dexter bus for 30+ minutes, no Woodward bus for 30+ minutes, an no Uber car available. I finally was able to flag a cab that was unable to take credit cards and didn't turn on their meter. We had to stop twice before finding a usable ATM. So traveling three miles within greater downtown should be worth that grief when the rental rate would buy 24-hour transit in another major city? It's not worth it. But I'm staying. Because I'm an enabler and love being abused, I guess.
The prices are based on their being a large group of people who want to live in an urban area, and Detroit improving to the point that people are willing to actually live there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph C. Krause
Not only that but the prices are still very low compared to other cities. The Book Cadillac should be a top end luxury place and it's still only a little over $2 a square foot. In Toronto or Chicago an undistinguished building would go for far more than that just because of the location. Basically anywhere near a transit station would go for that much or more. So there are definitely still a lot of problems like you said, and those are keeping the prices down lower than they should be.
If you're saying that there hasn't been objective improvement in 3-4 years, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Obviously, your experience above was real, and it's unfortunate. But the reality is that Detroit -- even downtown Detroit -- isn't a final product....it's still a prototype, and we are all Beta testers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph C. Krause
But I have definitely seen progress, and there's more coming down the pipe.
There's definitely progress.
But also, a lot of these landlords know they can charge higher because of the Live Downtown incentives. So you have some 25 yr old who can afford X but knows he/she is going to get a $5K credit to live downtown, and suddenly his/her housing budget jumps drastically. Take away the Live Downtown subsidization and landlords would not be getting these rental rates. Yet. Yes, that's the point right? But it also doesn't offer accurate insight into what the average downtown unsubsidized loft dweller is willing to pay in the current market.
I can't speak about the Brewsters because I am not overly familiar with them, but I think major rehab projects can be much more costly than tear down/new developments [[I am aware that many things are torn down and yet to be redeveloped). To merit rehabbing it either needs to be mostly cosmetic work on a building with "good bones", or a project of such architectural or historical merit that they will be able to charge a real premium on the reno'd units.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroithealth
I think Detroit's pace of residential development in both downtown and midtown is fine. First, there are many more units than there were five or ten years ago, and they are largely occupied. Second, a number of projects are underway. Third, a true "boom" in housing could very possibly bust. Lastly, we shouldn't forget that as more commercial comes to downtown/midtown, a lot of real estate [[both land and existing buildings) might make more sense as commercial developments than before Dan Gilbert transformed the downtown office market. So, that might be giving some pause to develors, which is not a bad thing. Opening a moderate amount of units each year, supported by the market, will lead to healthier prices and lower vacancy rates in the long run. I think Corktown and neighborhoods along the "Lodge corridor" will be the location of more housing development in the next ten years than downtown and midtown.
Comparing downtown Detroit to rental rates in other cities is illogical. This city is unlike any other major city downtown in America when you factor in safety, services, transportation, night life, well maintained public spaces and dinning options - all of which contribute to the pricing you see elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
Yes that's literally what I said. The quality difference between Detroit and other cities is why Detroit is so cheap, and why Detroit under "normal" circumstances should be much more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroithealth
Instead of saying that something is causing rents to quickly spike, I think it's more accurate to say that various problems are being improved, and so Detroit's prices are slowly rising closer to where they *should* be.
Not to sidetrack, but in regards to Lafayette Park being a good area for renters/ buyers. I have been in Lafayette Park since 1990 for all except three years..[[2002-2005) Its quite good, ofcourse ,there have been some car thefts, some breakins,, and a couple of shootings over the years , but there arent very many urban neighborhoods in any large midwest city that cant chime in the same fashion, It is part of urban living and you had better get used to that. I have personally never had one incident,, and in good weather I run almost daily around downtown and the riverfront and generally walk a 4 mile walk through greektown, to woodward, up to grand circus, down broadway and back to Lafayette Park daily on almost every day of the year to keep fit,, Never have had a issue yet since 1990 other than people wanting money. I certainly wouldnt say Lafayette Park is dangerous,, but always keep my eyes open. You do see some sketchy individuals from time to time. Overall, it is a great neighborhood. The amount of amenities for entertainement, eating, culture and sports within walking distance is very impressive. I do not, and have never gone in areas of Detroit that are considered dangerous unless my car is locked and Im inside. Detroit is a large city, theres lots of areas, especially downtown and midtown that are pretty good. . With all the amenities now, my trips across 8 mile are fewer and I dont miss it by any means. Ofcourse anymore I am careful in Royal Oak and Ferndale when I do visit. I have friends living there that have also had been victims of crimes there, although the murder rate is lower that the city overall ofcourse. Sadly this is our way of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
That would be of the Midwest. Rental hikes are just another scam to gouge people. Soon as the housing market shows signs of life, rentals go up.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
all of you have great points, but first of all, Brewster Place was actually Brewster Projects. It was a U.S. HUD place that is still owned by the Government. U.S. Housing law states that it can not be developed unless a comparable housing place can be built. What happened was that nothing was done for years and the Govt. lost the lease and it is now in the hands of the State of Michigan and Detroit. Somebody has the Land and it will be developed.
Just for the sake of some images.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTime
* Please note, data is affected by map zoom resolution and I didn't set any scale
Maps from:
http://www.trulia.com/home_prices/Il...cago-heat_map/
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/renthea...randrapids.jpg
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/renthea..._cleveland.jpg
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/rentheatmap/hm_toledo.jpg
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/rentheatmap/hm_detroit.jpg
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/renthea...cincinnati.jpg
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/renthea..._milwaukee.jpg
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/rentheatmap/hm_chicago.jpg
I'm not a fan of price per bedroom data, rather price per square foot per month, but this is the info conveniently available.
Curious. What are your paying for rent, if you're renting? Total and per sq.ft? How much are you paying a month for auto/renters insurance? Do you use your Detroit address for auto insurance?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetBill
Being part of the construction industry, I've seen and/or been involved on some budget pricing for some residential projects that have not hit the public radar. There will be some great news on residential developments in the near future.
Thanks Wolverine, great info. Looks like Grand Rapids gets you a lot of bang for your buck. I have searched for apartments there in the past and have been blown away by how nice and reasonable the rentals are and your map seems to confirm this....well, the price aspect at least.
FWIW, I rent in Lafayette Park, pay a little less than $1/sq ft [[around $750 for a 1br), and about $200 for insurance [[auto/renters combined).Quote:
Originally Posted by detroithealth
renting is only for a few high-rises. most low-rises are owner only. you can rent a space under 680 sft for around $800, but you also get a safe building, on street parking and a guard at the door to let you in. Lafayette Park Area has all different rates and options. it is diverse in rates and amenities. Even if you are a first-timer paying the lower rate with a small square footage, you can get what you need and have a city-life that can rival the Suburbs. Just try and you can find the Joys of Downtown Detroit.
Corktownyuppie,
My statement was a bit hyperbolic. There has been mostly gradual improvement every year I have lived in the city, so we actually do agree on that. My complaints stand, though, and I feel that for over $1500 per month, I should be able to travel a few miles on transit without too much of a hassle, especially living more or less in the center of downtown. Everyone moving in gets to live a suburban lifestyle, driving where they need to go even though they live downtown, and this keeps the pressure off having all daily needs right outside the door, which is what I consider to be real urbanism.
For the rental rates now, it is still possible to live in Queens, NY, in a completely walkable neighborhood with 24-hour amenities even if it's a 45 minute train ride to Manhattan. And really, just improvements in the regular bus and a 24-hour drug store would get us much, much closer to that degree of livability.
People always subtract the credit from their housing costs. Landlords ADD the credit to their rents, so they get most/all of the benefit. Ah, the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroithealth
No different than student loans. You think they made college more affordable? Yeah, right. The schools vacuumed up the extra cash students threw at them -- built new shrines and increased the pay for tenured professors and administrators [[the 1%) and ignored the Grad Assistants [[99%).