WTF is going on? There must be a way to stop these from happening. Any ideas?
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ar...uring-a-legacy
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WTF is going on? There must be a way to stop these from happening. Any ideas?
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ar...uring-a-legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Django
Tyree said they would be installing cameras, obviously the perp or perps read the same story and rushed their next job. This one was no mistake, no random event. Damnit.
We need a small army of all-night observers...some type of network that calls out suspicious behavior. Watchers.
Perhaps the new police chief will dedicate some resources to this, it should be the same manpower as the anti-scrapping unit.
Some artist may actually submit video of the arson to an exhibit, treating it as document in a conceptual art project, or even as a "performance" art.
i wonder if this is paid arson, like 'get rid of this and i'll pay you $10k'?
or if this is real arson, what happens when the guy finishes torching the art houses?
will he start on the houses full of people at 3am ?
better catch that guy before he burns down your house!
"Art" is thrown around rather casually in Detroit. Most of us call this trash.
That's because most people don't know the first thing about art. That doesn't stop them from opening their mouths or smashing keyboards, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by greekt0wn
No Greekt0wn is correct, many in the city including myself find that the word "art" is thrown around very casually in Detroit! As for the project while I think its a piece of junk, I am very disappointed at the arsonist who has targeted the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
The best thing that we can do to prevent this in the future is to start acting like adults. Figure out how to live within our budget. Fix our civic institutions [[police). And grow the population again. Worry less about who did us wrong. And worry more about what we're doing wrong -- and be willing to change it even if a few sacred cows get slaughtered.
Pretty much this. If it doesn't fit their definition of art, then ohhhh no, its junk, or stupid, or whatever. There is a fair amount of art I do not "get", but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value for someone. People should be upset that a unique part of Detroit that many, many people enjoy is being targeted by an arsonist.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
If you love it so much let this guy turn your house into a garbage shrine.Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
When my house is abandoned in Detroit, which has an ample amount of available housing [[and therefore... not taking houses away from those who need it), Tyree can turn into whatever he wishes. Weird argument.
That's really funny. We had internationally known artists putting up murals in Hamtramck and some of the locals went apeshit. Calling the art scandalous, they wanted it removed. They rushed out to whitewash one piece until they got too tired of whitewashing it. Several other locals threw paint on another piece of art.Quote:
Originally Posted by greekt0wn
These people never complain about the weeds growing around the vacant buildings that were painted on, never come down and pull up weed trees or pick up trash. These hillbillies are totally fine with McBurger wrappers and chip bags and all this garbage, with the weeds growing knee-high down at the end of their block, but put a piece of art up and all of a sudden they're down at city council meetings and passing around petitions.
Good old art. At least it can still shock the local troglodytes into half-wakefulness long enough to hoot and holler about "trash." :D
Then you should easily be able to prove me wrong. What makes you an art expert?Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Since I have zero artistic ability, I've always figured if it's something I could do, i.e. randomly hang stuff on a house, it's not really art.
I am far from an art expert, but I would say that if a significant number of people appreciate and enjoy a piece of "art," then it probably is art in some sense of the word. I am sure that some college courses spend an entire semester discussing this question, though.
So it's "art" but only if you don't have to live next to it. Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHeartAnthony
anyone who claims to understand art should know that it is subjective. one man's sacred art is another man's eyesore.
no need to froth at the mouth just because someone doesnt agree with my conception of what is art.
furthermore, it's temporal. easy come, easy go.
in a case like Heidelberg Project, it's subject to certain laws, i imagine.
if Guyton does not own the properties, then he doesnt really have much say over what happens to them. if he does own the properties, then he could be fined for having unsecured, hazardous structures.
im not sure if he owns them all now or what, juss' sayin that you cant just create "art" anywhere you want and expect it to be treated as sacred by all, for eternity. im guessing Guyton already has some kind of grasp of that, as most street artists do.
The more loudly people protest something is not art, oddly enough the more credence they give to those who say it is. It is kind of like the saying that "The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference."
The other art work that engenders such vehement discussion about the meaning of art in Detroit is the Fist.
What one thinks of Tyree's effort is opinion. What the artworld thinks and pays for it is quite another. But he made you react and think, even if to deride him.
Forum poll - Is this art? How much would you pay for this triptych painting?
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multim...3__475765b.jpg
I'd pay $142,405,001 for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
And yes, it is art. Tyree's work is art too, but not something that would be welcomed in most living environments. If he moved it to Palmer Woods, or even Midtown, I'd think they would have run him out of town years ago. But where it is, is relatively safe.
Unless Tryee is paying taxes on these properties... good riddance.
I have stated my opinion on other pages so it not worth my time here. If you are interested you can search for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Whether its art or not might be an issue to some - but thats just an aesthetic argument. I might be a wee bit more concerned about the willingness of a number of ppl to molotov cocktail their friends and neighbors into the stoneage. If someone is willing to burnout homes, skyscrapers, or your kids dollhouse- does it really matter whether it was artistic or not? I truly doubt a firebug stops lighting up when the Heidelberg houses are all gone.
Community policing depends upon 99% of the population of any given area to be at least neutral- if not law abiding. The police are fairly impotent on any given day w/o a local populace that gives a shit about their 'hood. Local firewatch is a great idea- its been used in many metro areas for a zillion years- but it will only work if a vast majority of locals give a shit. Too many ppl are still willing to turn their heads the other way. At some point, people are going to have to start talking about right vs wrong again- and I'm fairly certain that its always wrong to light shit on fire that doesnt belong to you!
If your neighborhood, friends, enemies, etc can't or won't come together and protect their properties as a collective group against one of the scarier urban threats [[out-of-control fires)- eventually there won't be ANYTHING left called 'art' to argue over...
I agree with you for the most part, but the Hamtramck murals, to me, don't really reflect the community. Every time I go by them they seem very oddly out of place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Hamtramck has always been a working class, but mostly tidy, immigrant enclave, and despite suffering from more blight than in the past, it still mostly is.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1508123.html
To me, that simply doesn't scream "Hamtramck." Flying some guy named "SEVER" and other assorted verb peoples in from Atlanta to tag up Hamtramck sounds like a pretty fucking dumb idea to me, one that could only sound cool or smart in Metro Detroit. You don't need a degree in Urban Studies to realize that Samir, Stan, and Svetlana who live next door to the mural with their 12 kids and keep porches full of geraniums, are probably going to hate it.
Then to go and decry them for not liking what is forced upon their community...
I understand NIMBY both in Hamtramck and from the HP dissenters, but The Heidelberg Project is a bit different in there is very little left of the neighborhood [[as opposed to being the densest city in the state). If you've driven through the neighborhood recently it is shocking as to how there is really almost nothing left.
I wouldn't want to live on Heidelberg Street per say, but I wouldn't mind having it nearby. Good conversation piece to take the guests after the apertif, no?
I'm pretty much over it from an artistic standpoint [[25 years later and still painting dots on things?) but it's still rather amusing to see the cretins still screaming about how it's not art because "it's garbage" or "it isn't hard to do."
I didn't ask for your opinion. I asked what makes you an expert.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Knock off the idiotic rhetoric. You don't have to like it. That doesn't make it any less artistic.
There were provisions in the beautification project agreements that if the community objected to the art, demands could be made for a new mural. That's what happened in the case of the coffin mural. It was replaced by art that is, in my opinion, very fucking ugly. But it comes from the community, which means the red-nosed, shit-stained old drunks of the South Side will now be able to shamble up to the liquor store without having to see anything challenging to their delicate sensibilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by poobert
In the case of the mural in the Deeby lot on Joseph Campau, that was a bunch of old-line nut-job Hamtramck rednecks who took it upon themselves to do a shitty job of halfway whitewashing it, until Al Deeby put up a new billboard instead. The artwork itself could have sold in a Los Angeles gallery for $10,000-$20,000, but a couple of ginned-up hicks no doubt beamed with pride over the new Al Deeby Dodge billboard. Now they can walk past that cracked asphalt with the weeds poking up through it, encircled by rusting fencing, and bask in total satisfaction.
So, actually, you don't have to look at that challenging art anymore. It's gone. It's been gone for a while now, which makes me wonder how long it's been since you've been by. Anyway, I don't give a flying fuck either way. I just think it's funny that those rednecks who crabbed about the art don't give a shit about how ugly the weeds are, how littered the streets are, or how they seem to exhibit absolutely no taste whatsoever in their dress, deportment or disposition.
In other words, they're the trash.
Unless he attracts tens of thousands of visitors who spend millions in Detroit, draws international art acclaim from prestigious museums and universities, attracts almost daily tours of students and art classes from across the metro and beyond and does all this in a neighborhood that would otherwise be a revenue-consuming urban prairie.Quote:
Originally Posted by subsidized
If you don't like his art, what is wrong with the business he generates and the positive acclaim and attention to Detroit he creates? What other 'ghetto-hood' does that for the city?
Of the many people who consult me on touring Detroit, almost all know of this project, want to see it, and are delighted with the refreshing, inspiring and idea-challenging experience they have there.
What makes me an expert is 35 plus years in and out of the art world working for several auction houses. What makes you able to form an intelligent opinion on the project?Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
I could auction off a couple of your posts from recent memory and probably have to pay someone to like them, even a little bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
Exactement!
I agree with Lowell.
Plus who will keep Detroit's quirky soul alive? Where? I would hate to see every neighborhood become bland with generic artless new construction so that eventually the city becomes Anytown, USA. [[thinking of The Auburn and Woodbridge Estates repeated over and over with nary a polka dot in sight).
Lots of order, no weirdness and zero personality.
The Heidelberg has - and will continue to give rise to - a messy, emotional story that means something to people all over the world.
What do the haters want in the end, Atlanta with better music? Better music tends to come from messy emotional rebelious unconventional environments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
Oui monsieur!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharnelle
Tout à fait ma chère dame!
Please do we can add you lousy posts too!Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck
We hope for better things. It will rise from the ashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
So he doesn't pay taxes then....
Also, I guess I should shutup and blindly believe that the project brings in people that spend millions in Detroit proper.... sure.... because that neighborhood is the one all the developers are fighting for. All that hotel and restaurant congestion is making the commute down Mt. Elliot such a headache.
Where is the proof of these tens of thousands of visitors? Millions in revenue? You are mental if you think anyone believes that. This was an illegal eyesore nobody wants to live next to. If it's so wonderful, let him do it to your house.
This post is beyond stupidQuote:
Originally Posted by subsidized
What does the neighborhood have do with whether it's a major attraction? Look the neighborhood around the Motown Museum it isn't one the best in the city. Grand Blvd isn't clogged with traffic. Are now going to argue that it's a not major attraction? If you think don't the Heidelberg Project isn't one bigger attractions in the city you don't know anything about Detroit
The Motown museum is not a major attraction, it's open once a week and there is rarely anyone there. Try again.
Typical pedestrian Metro Detroit think. Of course, factually, the Motown Museum is open 5 - 6 days per week.Quote:
Originally Posted by subsidized
http://www.motownmuseum.org/visit/hours-admissions/
Let's not get silly things like facts get in the way of our blindly bitter tirades, though.
The point is: what's all this garbage about "major attractions"? I know plenty of you would love to see a Gibralter Trade Center or Super K-Mart or mobile home village on every corner so there would be "major attractions" but the great cities of the world are made up of residences and art galleries and small museums - they are a sum of their parts. Our thinking for the past 50 years has been this superblock stupidity - malls, endless malls, subdivisions, casinos - and it's all fallen apart. Seriously, who goes to Great Lakes Crossing who doesn't have a criminal record and/or jean shorts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsidized
WTF is wrong with you? Have you ever sat at the Heidelberg for an hour and seen how many cars and busses stop in to see Tyrees work? Garden City might be your scene but Detroit is different, We would rather see an abandoned used as a piece of art than see it turn into nothing then burned. Tyree works constantly on the area, the lawns are mowed and the streets are safe and clean there, he does a good job for the city obviously better that they can do. I wish we had a Tyree for every block like this type area in Detroit. Go sit on Heidelberg for an hour. Of course nobody in the burbs would appreciate this type of creation but this is not the burbs and this thread is not about the burbs.
I know The Heidelberg Project attracts visitors and I never said it wasn't art. What I said basically was, that personally, I don't care about it, I don't believe that the people that visit Heidelberg spend millions in Detroit proper, and that it has always been a revenue consuming prairie because nobody is paying taxes on these properties. I also said something about not seeing any businesses trying to capitalize on the visitors in the area, which would be common near such an internationally acclaimed attraction. I never said burn the place down or hooray for arson... all I said is good riddance [[to bad rubbish).
ok poobert, you got me... In responding to MSUguy's claim that the Motown Museum was a "major attraction" I made a false claim that it was only open once a week, what an ass I am, but the fact that the museum doesn't bring in hundreds of people every day remains. However, I did not talk shit about The Motown Museum nor did I suggest that some shitty store should be built near or in it's place so just chill out a bit with the wild assumptions Columbus. I love the museum tour and have taken numerous people there over the years.
Django... you're nuts. I have no idea what you are talking about. I can look past the moldy stuffed animals and the hubcaps nailed to the trees and agree that Tyree has done a good job of keeping the area maintained while at the same time painting everything like a 2nd grader with finger paint, but there are a lot of other people that take pride in their neighborhoods and make their best effort to keep it safe and clean... some of them plant gardens on empty lots... Tyree buries boats. And yes, I currently live in Garden City... I apologize.
There's even a children's book about The Heidelberg Project, it's called "Magic Trash: A Story of Tyree Guyton and His Art".
"Magic Trash"... That's the positive acclaim and attention to Detroit he creates... eh?
For what it's worth Guyton started out on a mission to highlight blight with the polka dot invasion. Polka dots would appear all over the city on blighted properties. From that his vision grew to recycle trash in a meaningful message. Some of the art is just fun and whimsical too, but also remind people of the disturbing realities of a city in decline.
I personally always cringe at the doll/stuffed animal house since it is a reminder of all the deaths and sites where people pay homage to senseless deaths. It is a powerful message and one we need.
Is this art, hell yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumas
Exactly. The gesture of turning decline into a monument is a lot more jarring than leveling old and building new tract houses. But Detroit has suffered so much blight on a monumental level that guyton's absence would be freakier than his conspicuous presence. Yes it is art.
The fire was mentioned in the Entertainment section of the Toronto Star. My wife said, "Apparently they burned down some important art installation in Detroit." I didn't know where to begin.
I would rather have the work of Tyree in my neighborhood making something creative rather than just letting the abandoned's rot. There is no way in hell that block is not a positive compared to any other blocks north South East or West of Heidelberg. Your statement about 2nd grader finger paint gets no points. Where did you get your fine arts degree? The very fact we argue if its art makes it art. The art is not in what is painted, sculpted, or hung, its in the feeling it gives. Tyree has improved his block, taken something thought of as garbage and turned it around into something beautiful. It wouldn't work in Garden City no doubt, I cant think of one interesting thing in Garden City but it works here in Detroit so why knock it. Im proud to know the man and the pride he has given that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by subsidized
On another note the streets say its known who is doing the arsons. I heard that yesterday but it could be just a rumor.
When the "project" started it was more an exercise in thumbing your nose at the city government. At the time I got a kick out of Guyton's lack of respect for a mayor who was more interested in protesting in other cities and purchasing Kuggerands and a city counsel president who was more interested in getting her name in the press than providing the basic services the citizens of the city elected them to provide. In any other city a simple code violation would have been issued and we would not be having this discussion. Now years later we have a shrine to the utter failure of the city to provide the most elementary of services. Who knew at the time this would be the harbinger of the mess we have today.
As for the money generated by the project, I think its most likely higher than estimated. In my routes around the city when I am forced to drive by there is always a good sized crowd in the area around the project. Also what is never mentioned is the income the "tourists" provide some of the residents through their clueless behavior leaving valuables in plain site in their cars while they go out gawking.
Last just a personal observation. I looked at the list of those who support the project. Most were those who spend other people's money. I wonder why he does not get much support from those who actually send their own money on the arts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Again, your comment is very high on the arrogance scale. The Watts Towers in Los Angeles were also seen by many as an eyesore in an otherwise unremarkable hood in the early days. It is now seen as a spirited life's work by an immigrant mason whose lack of a formal education did not prevent him from expressing himself.
Great observation Canuck. I just read about the Watts towers and its history of that guy a month ago, always knowing about them but never seeing them up close. Im a No Cal guy, never cared much for So Cal.
Heres a quick Wiki link for anyone interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Towers http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tts-towers.jpg
Not sure if anything Tyree does around the city can ever be truly valued by one whose training and/or definition of art includes how much an item can fetch at auction. Let alone understood.
You're talking a different language, Django. This guy wouldn't get the rock stacks, either. He cannot buy them, or profit off your making 'em.
Cheers
ok, put down the joint for a minute and read the words that I am typing, process them in your head and try to understand that I NEVER SAID THE PROJECT WASN'T ART. Art can be anything and I'm not the judge of what is or isn't art. Art creates conversation and with this being a mere sample of the debate about the project that has gone on since the 80's, I'd unfortunately say that Heidelberg is the most talked about art in the city of Detroit. I never said anything about Garden City or whether it is here or there, I simply implied that the Heidelberg Project looks like shit. Yes, some people might think it looks better than abandoned houses and overgrown lots and I can kind of agree with that. As for the 2nd grader comment I made, I have a daughter in kindergarten whose painting skill is almost at the level of Guyton's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Django
I still think that all the time, money, and energy spent by the volunteers on the HP could be better served tearing down abandonment in other surrounding neighborhoods [[fuck the red tape, if it's dangerous tear it down). Now they're trying to raise $50,000 to install cameras to watch piles of garbage. And before either of you chime in and talk more shit yes I have volunteered and worked with John and others at Motor City Blight Busters many times in the past and I do as much as I can to help the city I was born and raised in and ONLY 6 years ago moved away from in search of a better school system for my daughter.
Gannon, if you're referring to the work of Scott Hocking then I know exactly what you're talking about and I have no issues with his installments in the city. I think they are clever, and well executed and not forced down anyones throat with vivid colors and the word 'GOD' painted on everything.
Just stop talking because once again you're making yourselves look silly.
Yes, and I think that there are many levels and kinds of expressions in art, and snobbery is the biggest enemy to expression, period. How many people censor themselves because they feel inadequate when it comes to personal expression given that they have little or no exposure to techniques? I applaud people who can jump the snobbery fence and land onto a patch of happy sod for their own satisfaction. Heck, a lot of armchair auctioneer types are nowhere near attaining the pleasure of making something, anything. Pimp my garage, Degas!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
I don't have an intelligent opinion on the project. I have an educated opinion on the concept of art being subjective and anyone claiming "that's not art!" to anything they dislike being uncultured neanderthals.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
And a few years in an art museum.
Most Ironic Post of 2013.Quote:
Originally Posted by subsidized
The Heidelberg Project gets an estimated 35,000 "non-local" visitors annually.Quote:
Originally Posted by subsidized
http://web.williams.edu/Economics/Ar...SocNetwork.pdf
Now, how "non-local" is defined and how much money these people spend IN the city of Detroit is debatable. I find it hard to believe that most of those 35,000 travel to Detroit for the sole purpose of seeing the Heidelberg Project. Rather, it's likely that many are here for other reasons and take advantage of the opportunity to visit the Heidelberg Project while they are here.
I know a lot of people who have gone to see the HP and haven't spent a dime in the city as a result. They go, they look, and then they leave. MAYBE they go to Slow's after, and that would be about the extent of their in-city spending. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I think that Lowell is exaggerating the local economic impact of the Heidelberg Project. That's not to say that it isn't worthwhile though.
Quit hissing sillies. This is Grandma speaking. No doubt all posters are high IQ, however it really is ok to disagree.
Gannon made a point about Django rock sculptures. I love them, some of the beauty is their impermanence. Django has taken shit cause some folks worry that kids might get hurt however my attitude is keep the brats under control. No doubt those parents wouldn't like my expressed opinion. I really am learning to shrug off opinions that don't coincide with mine.
So kiss and make up, life is short.
Canuck, we generally have a room available for friends and family. If you make it to Detroit we would be happy to host you as our guest. We live in a historic district not far from Heidelberg.
We have a better than fair knowledge of Detroit's history and indeed have a published hardbound book detailing specifically east area history and how it contributed to Detroit becoming the automotive center. I don't shill on this board. Happy to give you a grand tour of our city in its glory and ruins.
Sumas